Shaper with powerfeed kickback

[Jared Burkey]

So I've got a small cabinet shop and I run a "powermatic" 7.5 hp ts 110 shaper (made by SAC) with a 1hp 3 wheel powermatic feed. I have a custom made 3 knife insert head that I run all my cope and stick with. The set-up has been solid but when I started to run my current job the 2nd piece I ran shot out like a bullet. I moved the feed away from the table to scuff and laquer the feed wheels (they are old and spin on material from time to time but have never allowed a kickback before), readjusted pressure and feed angles, tightened the head, and started feeding pieces. 4 more pieces ran fine then another broke loose and that stomach wrenching sound. I have been setting up and running shapers for years and have not encountered this level of repeated kickback. Please help me figure out what's going wrong. Here is my setup. 3/4 thick 2 1/2" wide oak rail and style, I'm removing a light 1/8", backfence, climbcut, slow feed rate. I know "you shouldn't be climb cutting" will come up but I have rarely had issues when using a feed and taking relatively light passes, I also prefer the cleaner cut it creates and feeding from the opposite side of the machine that boards rarely but sometimes shoot out of.

I'm currently under the impression that my feed wheels are so far gone that they are simply letting boards fly. Any input is appreciated.


Jared

[Richard Coers]

I've never heard of "laquer the feed wheels", what's that? My guess is that you applied lacquer thinner? That sure can't be good for the chemicals in the tires. I use Simple Green to clean all my rubber products. Is the shop cold? That will effect the tires, especially if they are old. Climb cutting is perfectly acceptable with a power feeder. I recommend doing a 2 pass cut until you buy new tires.

[Jared Sankovich]

Get new polyurethane wheels.

[Edward Dyas]

So I've got a small cabinet shop and I run a "powermatic" 7.5 hp ts 110 shaper (made by SAC) with a 1hp 3 wheel powermatic feed. I have a custom made 3 knife insert head that I run all my cope and stick with. The set-up has been solid but when I started to run my current job the 2nd piece I ran shot out like a bullet. I moved the feed away from the table to scuff and laquer the feed wheels (they are old and spin on material from time to time but have never allowed a kickback before), readjusted pressure and feed angles, tightened the head, and started feeding pieces. 4 more pieces ran fine then another broke loose and that stomach wrenching sound. I have been setting up and running shapers for years and have not encountered this level of repeated kickback. Please help me figure out what's going wrong. Here is my setup. 3/4 thick 2 1/2" wide oak rail and style, I'm removing a light 1/8", backfence, climbcut, slow feed rate. I know "you shouldn't be climb cutting" will come up but I have rarely had issues when using a feed and taking relatively light passes, I also prefer the cleaner cut it creates and feeding from the opposite side of the machine that boards rarely but sometimes shoot out of.

I'm currently under the impression that my feed wheels are so far gone that they are simply letting boards fly. Any input is appreciated.


JaredSomething doesn't sound right. Either the powerfeed wheels have gotten hard or you didn't have sufficient pressure on them. You could have bogged down the shaper but it shouldn't have allowed a board to slip out, especially just running sticking.

[Jared Burkey]

Haha. Yes I ment that I wiped down the feed wheels with laquer thinner. Not just to clean them but to soften them enough that they would hopefully have enough bite to keep pieces from ejecting. It's a last resort I've fallen back on in the past to get through a run of parts.

[Jared Burkey]

I definitely had enough pressure. I'll be purchasing new wheels tomorrow. Are the polyurethane wheels worth the extra cost?

[Jared Sankovich]

I definitely had enough pressure. I'll be purchasing new wheels tomorrow. Are the polyurethane wheels worth the extra cost?

Yes they are.

[Mel Fulks]

I've never seen any stock feeder wheels that were above the rubbish line. They do prove that OSHA is deficient.

[Kevin Jenness]

" I'm removing a light 1/8", backfence, climbcut, "

Can you elaborate on this? Are you using an outside fence 2 1/2" away from the cutter while removing 1/8" from the workpiece width? If so, that is a fairly heavy cut and it is not surprising that some pieces are getting away from old slick wheels.

Are the knives sharp? That can contribute to the problem.

As suggested, replace the wheels. Install fresh knives. Then try feeding conventionally with the setup described above. If you remove 1/16"-1/8" with a back fence, tearout should be largely eliminated, the cutters will run cooler and last longer and dust pickup will be vastly improved. If you still get too much tearout, go back to climbcutting, but there is no need to remove extra material with that approach.

[Jeff Duncan]

Well you saw it coming so here it is.... you shouldn't be climb cutting! There's really no good reason to do so with the setup your describing. If your cuts aren't coming out clean with a conventional feed something is wrong. Let me repeat that just so there's no confusion.... you have a solid 7-1/2 hp shaper with insert heads..... your cuts should be perfect in conventional feed.... no climb cutting needed or even slightly desired. Additionally you shouldn't have to do multiple light passes, one full depth pass and your done. Now add to that crappy feeder wheels! You have compounding problems just asking for trouble. I'm actually surprised this hasn't happened much more frequently.

If you doubt me check out my shaper post on problems I was having running end grain flooring. I'm now running a Schmidt head with carbide knives in end grain, (yes I said end grain white oak), in normal feed direction and it's cutting beautifully clean.

Are the poly tires worth the money? Only if you want your feeder to actually work. If you do a search on feeder issues my guess is almost every one will include some dialog on how crappy old stock rubber tires are. Yes they're worth the money.

good luck,
JeffD

[Jared Burkey]

So I purchased some stock feed wheels from my local woodworking machinery supplier (whos opinion I also trust, his main business is onsite machinery repair) because I need to be assembling these doors this week. He also agreed that they are trash. His advice was to use them for this job order poly wheels from western rollers then put away the stock one's for back-ups in an emergency situation in the future. Seems like sage advice to me.

Now for climb vs conventional cutting. One other reason I've been climb cutting with my insert head (knives have run less then 100 feet of oak so they are plenty sharp) is it's designed to run clockwise (I could probably flip it but then everything is upside down and it's not how the head was engineered to run). This means I'm feeding left to right which feels counter intuitive and awkward. I'm sure I'll get used to it I just prefer to do things in a way that feels comfortable. That being said there is nothing comforting about a 36" long pieces of oak shooting across the shop at a high rate of speed.
I will be running white oak with a back fence (Kevin-your description was correct. I've always call it aback fence not an outside fence and in my experience removing over a 1/4" is a heavy pass. I hope your right about dust collection. The piles I create with my shaper are...substantial. hahaha) conventional cut and brand new trash wheels tomorrow morning.
Wish me luck.
Jared

[Rod Sheridan]

I've never seen any stock feeder wheels that were above the rubbish line. They do prove that OSHA is deficient.

Does OSHA actually approve machinery?

regards, Rod.

[Erik Loza]

Just my 2-cents: People rag on the OEM power feeder wheels but they're a consumable. You wouldn't expect your truck tires to not be glazed after sitting around for 10 years, right?

Everyone goes for the poly wheels and that's fine but it's pretty easy to resurface OEM tires with a sanding block to get you by. Hope this helps.

Erik

[Jeff Duncan]

Now for climb vs conventional cutting. One other reason I've been climb cutting with my insert head (knives have run less then 100 feet of oak so they are plenty sharp) is it's designed to run clockwise (I could probably flip it but then everything is upside down and it's not how the head was engineered to run). This means I'm feeding left to right which feels counter intuitive and awkward. I'm sure I'll get used to it I just prefer to do things in a way that feels comfortable.
Jared

Just curious.... did you have the head specially made to run clockwise? If not your running it upside down:confused:

You probably already know this but just in case..... heads are ordered either face up or face down and 'normally' run counterclockwise. (Of course there are plenty of exceptions, but thats the normal day to day way heads are ordered and run.) So if your using a stock head.... its upside down and your running your shaper in reverse and climb feeding to avoid....??? If you ordered it that way, well then that's what you got so.....

As for your new stock tires they can indeed be useful. Put them aside after you swap them for the new poly ones and one day when you have to do a precarious setup with the feeder on a table saw or shaper, and need to cut into one of the wheels slightly to get a good position.... use the stock wheel. Set in the middle of the feeder and cut into it instead of your new poly tires! Just make sure your new tires are very close in size, (outside diameter), or you'll have to swap all three tires.

good luck,
JeffD

[Jared Burkey]

Update. While replacing the feed wheels I noticed the third wheel had been struck by one of the pieces hard enough to tear the rubber419910.

After replacing the wheels I was going to start running parts but heard a strange clicking from the PF and the third wheel stopped turning when any under pressure. Took the cover off and found this 419911
419912
My parts supplier said in his 30 years as a powermatic dealer he's never seen a broken gear. Has anyone encountered this before? Is there any other potential problems I should look for before running any parts?

[Rod Sheridan]

I have never seen a sprocket failure on a power feeder.

I have seen gear failures internally.

That roller is really dried out, no wonder you had an issue with it.

You'll really like your new polyurethane rollers..............Regards, Rod.

[Tom Bender]

Are the tires providing inconsistent pressure as they turn? Some things that could cause it;

1. Bad bearings.

2. Bent shaft

3. Out of round tires

4. Tires softer on one side

You should be able to set up a dial indicator against the tires and run them. Check high, low and center.

To check for softness tap with a small ball peen hammer.