band saw blade install question

[Bob Riefer]

Hello again :-)
I've been super active in the shop lately, so I guess my questions piled up a bit. Thanks again for any advice.

Separate from my table saw thread, I have a question around my band saw.

I recently installed a new ¼” blade on my Grizzly G0555, and have tried to very closely follow the manual in terms of installation procedure. Previous to using this blade, my experience was mostly with wider blades.

During my first test cuts with the new blade, the blade became dislodged from the wheels… as if I pushed the blade off the wheels.

I inspected the rubber tires on the wheels and they are in like-new shape. I figured I needed more tension on the blade, so I followed the steps in the manual to accomplish that (from memory, those steps were basically: tightening to a certain point, manually rotating the wheels to see the blade center on the tire, running machine while reducing tension only until you see some "flutter", then tightening a bit from that point). I checked all the roller guides and they are a paper’s width to the left/right/back of the blade, so it seems they are in the right spots. All that checking helped, and I’m not dislodging the blade anymore…. But…

I have to feed even thin (e.g. ¾”) boards of soft woods like cedar and pine very very slowly else I can see the blade being pushed again, and I fear that I’ll dislodge it like before. And as I try curve cuts, the blade has difficulty following even gentle curves.

Do you think I need even more tension? Did I perhaps choose a bad blade? Is blade deflection and difficulty following curves on a bandsaw just a normal thing I should get used to? Any other pointers I should try?

Thanks again!!
Bob R.

[Dennis Droege]

This may or may not help, but most (maybe all) bandsaws have a camber adjustment on the upper wheel. I wonder if adjusting the wheel slant to provide more resistance to the blade moving off might help? What I mean is providing a sort of shoulder to help keep the blade in place. I've found narrow blades to be more touchy generally--

[Jim Becker]

Sometimes narrow blades track a little differently than wide blades. I'd look at that relative to your saw including what Dennis just mentioned.

[Mike Kees]

My guess is that you do not have sufficient tension on the blade. I would tension to the scale on the machine ,on most saws this is still not quite enough tension.

[Mike Kees]

In answer to some of your other questions blade deflection and difficulty cutting curves are definitely something that you should not have to "get used to". Something is wrong in the setup here. Do not be afraid to try more tension,on my Delta 14'' bandsaw I tension blades at the 1/2'' setting when it is a 1/4'' blade.

[Bob Riefer]

Thanks for the quick replies! I will start with more tension and see how that goes... more soon when I test that out :-)

[Edwin Santos]

I would take a closer look at your thrust bearing (the one behind the blade). If the thrust bearing is set correctly, it is difficult to push the blade off the wheels.
I'm assuming you tracked the blade to the center of the upper wheel.
Tensioning according to the scale on the machine should be enough.

[Paul F Franklin]

You don't say what teeth per inch the blade is, generally 3-4 TPI is what you want. If your blade is too fine you will have to cut very slowly. Min radius you can cut with a 1/4 wide blade is around 5/8" although it depends a bit on kerf width of blade and whether you have rounded the back edges of the blade with a stone.

I agree with the others that your tension is probably low. Double check where you are tracking the blade on the wheels and the thrust bearing adjustment. It should be about impossible to push the blade off the back of the wheels if those two adjustments are correct. Some folks like to track the blade in the center of the top wheel, other track the back of the gullets in the center (which places the blade further back). Either should work ok but also look where the blade tracks on the bottom wheel. If it is very near the back of the wheel, then move the blade forward on the top wheel some.

[John TenEyck]

What Edwin said - thrust bearing not moved forward when you changed to the narrower blade.

This is another case for making a tension meter. If you knew the tension was correct you wouldn't have wonder if it was the root cause.

John

[Doug Garson]

Even a 1/4" blade should cut 3/4" cedar like a hot knife thru butter. You say the blade is new but is it a good quality blade? I just put a well used 1/4" blade on my saw and cut 1 1/2" cedar with little effort. No offence but did you install it upside down?

[David Buchhauser]

I would take a closer look at your thrust bearing (the one behind the blade). If the thrust bearing is set correctly, it is difficult to push the blade off the wheels.
I'm assuming you tracked the blade to the center of the upper wheel.
Tensioning according to the scale on the machine should be enough.

I agree with Edwin. My first thought was that you do not have the rear thrust bearing (or bearings) adjusted for the narrower blade width.
David

[John K Jordan]

... I checked all the roller guides and they are a paper’s width to the left/right/back of the blade, so it seems they are in the right spots. ...

Others suggested checking the rear bearing position but I see you said you already did that.

I'd suspect tension - too little tension causes lots of problems. It seems that most of the tension indicators on bandsaws are inaccurate. I consider the flutter, plucking, deflections methods less than useful at best. As mentioned, a tension gauge will make sure the tension is right. I always use a tension gauge when mounting a different size/type of blade and record the position of the tension indicator on the saw. For example, the indicator on my 18" Rikon has to be set to the 1" mark to properly tension a 1/2"x3 tpi Lenox flexback blade.

JKJ

[william watts]

Seems you have checked all the usual suspects. It could be that the blade tracks centered on the upper wheel but to close to the edge on the lower wheel. Are the teeth on the blade pointed down? Forgive the the silly question.

Bill

[Myk Rian]

Open the upper cover and adjust the tracking to center the blade on the top wheel.
Read up on the flutter method of tensioning the blade. It involves raising the guide post to the top, and adjusting the tension until the flutter stops.
If you tension too much, you risk bending the axle and tracking adjuster.
Lower the guides and adjust the upper/lower bearings to barely touch the blade.

Might seem to be a nonsense question, but is the blade installed with the teeth pointed down?
William beat me to that one.

[John K Jordan]

....Are the teeth on the blade pointed down? Forgive the the silly question.


Not a silly question - many have done that. Small blades are especially easy to get flipped. I even saw a new blade come that way - the guy in the blade shop flips the blades when grinding the welds and must have gotten distracted on one.

Once I sharpened and mounted a chain on one of my chainsaws and before I started it a friend took one look and asked my how well that thing cut. I had mounted the chain backwards!!

JKJ

[glenn bradley]

I am with Edwin. You’re thrust bearing should keep the blade from being pushed back more than a tiny fraction of an inch. Hopefully you weren’t able to push the teeth back between the side guides and ruin the set. If this happened it will be very obvious as you cut.

[Randy Heinemann]

Others have said this but I'd reinforce it.

First, check your tension. I always crank mine up a bit. None of the bandsaws gauges for tension are accurate and I believe it's extremely difficult to break a blade by adding a little more tension. On the other hand not enough tension can result in what you reported happening.

Second, the thrust bearing behind the blade may not be set close enough to the blade, thus allowing the blade to move backward more than it should when you start pushing wood against it.

Third, there is likely an adjustment which another poster called "camber". This should keep the blade on the wheels. However, I would say that, if this is out of adjustment, the blade will likely come off the wheel just turning it by hand. At the very least, you will see the blade move one direction or the other when turning by hand if it's not set right.

There is a great video/reference booklet which Carter Products (bandsaw accessories) puts out which goes through the steps for installing a bandsaw blade. It's primarily to help setup for resawing. However, the same process works for all width blades.You don't really have to buy the Carter booklet or video anymore as there are at least 2 videos on YouTube of Carter's Alex Snodgrass going through all the steps. I swear by the steps in the Carter method of blade installation (by Alex Snodgrass). Since I've followed these steps, my resawing has improved significantly and curve cutting is much better also.

Carter also puts out the Stabilizer which is meant to replace the guides and thrust bearing for 1/4" or narrower blades. When installed as directed this product keeps the blade in a groove in the Stabilizer which helps hold the blade in place when cutting curves. They sell a version for most bandsaw brands. Generally, I'd say you probably shouldn't need this if the tension, camber, and thrust bearing are set right but it does do a great job.

[Doug Garson]

Guys if you read his original post he has solved the blade coming off issue, his current issue is the blade struggled to cut 3/4" cedar, my guess is poor quality blade (he said it was a new blade so shouldn't be dull) or blade on backwards. My 2 cents.

[Bob Riefer]

Silly follow up question.... how is it possible to install a blade backwards?

On my bandsaw, if I'm standing so that the wheels are to my left and the table surface is in front of me/slightly to the right of me.. the wheels spin clockwise/to the right... so that's the side you feed material into, so the teeth of the blade would be facing me. Installed in this direction, it's only possible to have the teeth facing (properly) downward. If I was to try to get the teeth to face upwards, I would have to face them away from me, and try to cut from the other side of the saw....

In any case, I'm just curious on that one. Teeth are facing downward and the rotation of the blade runs the teeth downward into the work piece (just like on a table saw or miter saw).

----

I checked upper and lower roller bearings. Left and right are a piece of notebook paper away from blade. Rear is less than a hair away from back of blade.

Grizzly tech support gave the same advice around more tension... So I added more, and that helped A LOT initially. I was happy!

But as I continued to test cut, I was suddenly unable to slide the cedar board through the blade anymore... the blade was still moving, but would not cut.

Powered the saw down, and found that the blade was now in front of the roller bearings... as if it had popped forward.

Sigh..........

My first thoughts now are:
- Maybe I overshot on increasing the tension
- Perhaps the upper wheel is tilted slightly forward (despite that the blade tracks centrally on the wheel)

I'll test some more later, but if other thoughts come to mind for the crew here, I'm all ears :-)

[Gary Ragatz]

Silly follow up question.... how is it possible to install a blade backwards?

On my bandsaw, if I'm standing so that the wheels are to my left and the table surface is in front of me/slightly to the right of me.. the wheels spin clockwise/to the right... so that's the side you feed material into, so the teeth of the blade would be facing me. Installed in this direction, it's only possible to have the teeth facing (properly) downward. If I was to try to get the teeth to face upwards, I would have to face them away from me, and try to cut from the other side of the saw....

Bob,

The blade could go on "backwards" if it was turned "inside-out." Think about a belt around your waist - you can twist it so that the inside surface of the belt is facing out. If you do that with your bandsaw blade, it will be cutting with the teeth facing up.

[Paul F Franklin]

Are you sure you have the correct length blade for your saw? They are welded to length from long lengths of blade stock and it is not unheard of for them to be made incorrectly. Can you compare to one of your older blades? Have you tried putting an older blade back on and trying that?

[Bob Riefer]

Ahhh, inside out... never even occurred to me that this was possible. Not the issue in this case, but I'll keep it in mind for future.

Paul F. >> good idea, I'm going to go try my old blade and see how it goes. More soon!

[Doug Garson]

Sounds like the blade tracking issue is still a concern. What condition are the tires on the wheels? Badly worn tires can contribute to tracking issues. I know the tires on my 14" Rockwell are in good shape and my saw is not sensitive to blade tension, at least for 1/4" blades, my experience is blade tension becomes more important with wider blades especially when resawing wide boards. Have you tried more than one blade? A 1/4" blade that struggles to cut 3/4" cedar sounds odd. If the blade is bad and you need excess force to make it cut maybe that is the root of the problem.

[Bob Riefer]

Well, I think (hope!) I figured it out.

Feel free to tease me after you read this.

Above I mentioned that after adding tension, and with all other settings seemingly in good shape, I achieved nice cuts initially... and then a long, gentle-curve cut in a piece of cedar 2x4 failed halfway through.

I assumed it was my setup. I watched videos, read the manual back to front, set everything on the saw back to factory and then adjusted again, read tips here, read tips from Grizzly again... and re-tested my cuts. Still no dice. WHAT THE HECK.

So, I swapped back to the only other blade I have on-hand... a super old, 3/4" blade of unknown sharpness, that hasn't been on the saw in years. Worth a shot.

After doing all the setup steps painstakingly, I buzz pretty effortlessly through a variety of test cuts. I'm happy with that, but bummed about not being able to figure out the thinner blade. To sooth my frustration, I decide to cut that long gentle curve in the cedar 2x4... I'll show that lump of lumber who is boss!

Damn if the cut doesn't fail in the exact same spot in that board... WHAT THE HECK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll admit that the test lumber went sailing across the shop and hit the floor hard... and cracked off the partially cut gentle curve...

to...

reveal....

a drywall screw embedded and completely hidden inside the piece of lumber.



I suddenly remember my kids using some scrap lumber to test out their ability to drive screws, and the head of one broke off... I explained how some fasteners are brittle (like drywall screws) and the piece of lumber got chucked in the burn pile. I must have later decided it was good enough to keep and put it in my "clean scrap" pile.

I think I had achieved good installation of the blade... and then dulled the hell out of it on that screw, thus making my other test cuts fail.


Down two blades, a bunch of hours, and plenty of ego points.... But I guess I now know every in and out of my tool, and shouldn't have too many future issues figuring out how to fine tune.

[Richard Verwoest]

Tension in the board?

[Jim Becker]

a drywall screw embedded and completely hidden inside the piece of lumber..
https://qaf05a.sn.files.1drv.com/y4mQnyco8CbktBfOQPpiq1qCZVv7X0EBzwXZ4huUGN2r4MPsGQ BuRyPsvR02MDS02Y901DWWAzJPc_3e3kVITQXQIqiGz7WZysiK MoFCrOzwHPovUtQUHn7kdGcyRMNfC_WnZzFqtkso3_6BeEZ8kM a1WGQ1zBmgOT5yT2ipk7PNDc7VGxGlnZQ3wGHSIBcO4Ed84OVw YHBTeEjO1uIeD9rfw?width=408&height=479&cropmode=none

[Bob Riefer]

Exactly...

[Doug Garson]

That'll do it, you now have two blades that are good for rough cutting only. Time to buy some new blades.

[John K Jordan]

...a drywall screw embedded and completely hidden inside the piece of lumber.


Those of us with bandsaw mills are well familiar with embedded screws, nails, barbed wire, screw drivers, railroad spikes, and ceramic insulators, some grown deeply into the middle of the tree. You can always tell by the sound when you hit something with these blades, which are less than 1 tooth per inch. Whoops, there goes another $30 blade...

JKJ

[Rod Sheridan]

Ha, good one Bob.

A few years ago my friend Tom and I were using our band mill to saw a large oak log.

We put a new blade on the mill and Tom started the first cut, about halfway through he hit a bolt. Here's the resulting conversation

Tom......$%#@ I think I hit a nail!

Rod.......Why didn't the metal detector find it?

Tom........Because it's at home in the garage.

We all have those moments..................Glad you found your problem.

P.S. Did the exact same thing during a Felder band saw seminar, it was a teachable moment

[Jim Becker]

Band saws and band mills are not the only tools at risk...I was recently jointing and thicknessing a piece of natural edge material for a client and noticed a gleaming, sparkly silver spot on the surface of the board after the final pass. It was an embedded bullet...and fortunately, made of actual lead which didn't damage the knives. This time...

[Mike Kees]

Well... Just glad that this is finally figured out.After posting ,I was following this thread seeing all the advice and thinking "what have we missed here ?" It was not making any sense. Can just here Paul Harvey saying, "and now we know the rest of the story".:D

[Bob Riefer]

:-) Glad I wasn't voted off the island for my stupidity!!

[Myk Rian]

We haven't held the vote yet.

[Tom Trees]

For me a metal detector is a must have tool for the bandsaw, as I work with reclaimed stuff only.
All good timbers get denailed, deglazed, decementized, deputtied, before being rough planed up and gets left aside.
I still keep the small bits, and where do I keep'em you might ask?
In two big boxes next to the bandsaw :confused:
There's nowhere else I would need them, and I keep those boxes next to other boxes of long strips.
Happened to me more than once, but never again....ya right.
I keep the metal detector in the house to keep the battery from going dead in the cold temperatures, (so I'm going to use this thread as a warning to bring it out next time)

Anyways, my point is that a metal detector is a necessary tool for use with the bandsaw...
Are you going to waste good timber fettling your saw?

If you were buying timber from the yard then those test cuts are gonna add up to the price of a cheap metal detector wand pretty soon.

[Bob Riefer]

We haven't held the vote yet.

Ha ha, excellent post


GOOD NEWS. My new blade arrived in the mail today. Timberwolf 3/8" blade. I installed, followed all the steps I now know by heart... AND, all test cuts (in boards without shrapnel) went AWESOME. Cutting tight radius, gentle curves, hard woods, soft woods, thin boards, thick boards. NICE.

(now I'm on to table saw repairs...)

[Karl Loeblein]

Bob,

Watch this video from Carter Products around the halfway mark. Alex Snodgrass discusses a specific guide for 1/4" or smaller blades which allows you to spring load small blades so they stay put better.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGbZqWac0jU

[Doug Garson]

We haven't held the vote yet.
Just got my ballot in the mail, I think I'll vote to keep Bob on probation. :cool:

[Mark Daily]

:-) Glad I wasn't voted off the island for my stupidity!!
That’s not stupidity- it’s called life and everybody experiences it.:)