table saw rumbling

[Bob Riefer]

Hello,
It's been awhile since I've posted, but I often read and learn here and am thankful for all the thoughtful contributions.

I had read some archives around similar situations to what I'm facing, but thought a fresh thread wouldn't hurt too much.

I have an older Grizzly 1023 3hp cabinet table saw. I bought it used about a decade ago, and with minor tuning it has performed very well for all these years.

Last week I was doing a lot of work with a dado stack of blades installed when I started to hear a "rumbling" sound during operation (not just during breaking/stopping). I was able to finish the task at hand, and swapped back to a combo blade... which I then found was showing signs of vibrating and giving an unclean cut (where that has never been an issue previously).

With the saw unplugged, it is relatively difficult to rotate the blade by hand now. That was also never an issue before.

To date, I'll admit that my entire "maintenance regimen" for this tool has basically been to keep the top surface waxed. Never inspected or swapped belts or anything else.

My first thought is that the belts may need to be replaced, although I ran my fingers over them as my wife rotated the blade (saw unplugged) and didn't feel any obvious pits etc.

My second thought is that bearings may need to be replaced.

What do you think? Any tips on performing the steps of troubleshooting?

(I also sent a note to Grizzly to get their opinion)

Thanks!
Bob R.

[Jim Becker]

"Rumbling" combined with the blade deflection you mention could very well mean bearings or perhaps something else is loose with the arbor. I do think you need to "dive in" there, Bob, and hopefully rectify things quickly.

[Mike Kees]

Bob if you bought that saw used a decade ago, and going by the' bad cut with a combo blade' as well as' hard to turn the arbor by hand' comments it is time for new arbor bearings. Probably would not hurt to do the motor bearings as well. Then everything would be good for the next 20 years

[Ronald Blue]

What everyone has said. Bearings are almost certainly the source of the vibration. In fact if it's causing a rough saw cut I am guessing if yo grab the arbor you will be able to move it radially. You have at least one bearing that's failing. It might be the drive end as well. Good luck.

[Bill Dufour]

Release the belt and turn on the motor and see if the rumbling is still there. If not it is the arbor. I would replace all four bearings as long as you have the top off. I would say the grease has reached it's service life and has dried out.
Bill D

[Bob Riefer]

In my heart of hearts, I figured this (bearings) was going to be the consensus. Looks like I'm going to get real familiar with the inner workings of the tool, so we'll get to add that to the shop skills list. Also a good time for me to re-tune the miter slots to blade etc. More soon as I give it a try

[Matt Day]

Don’t jump to conclusions too quickly. You could have set in your belts which can cause similar symptoms. After you remove the belts and check the motor, spin the arbor by hand and see if you feel any crunching or so if they spin way too easily which means the bearings lost their lubrication.

[Alex Zeller]

Like Bill said, remove the belts. From there you can manually turn the motor and arbor to feel for something not right. Chances are good it's the arbor bearings. I just replaced them on a PM 66 with Timken brand bearings. Probably was overkill for how much use I'll give the saw but they were less than $10 each so why not buy the best. Just remember if it is the bearigns you don't need to buy new ones from Grizzly. There's several very good brands to choose from.

As for taking the saw apart it's actually very simple. You'll want a second person unless you are strong as the cast iron top can be a little heavy. But it's a pretty straight forward job. You will need a gear or bearing puller or a shop press. When putting the bearings on the arbor always push on the same race (as in if you are putting the bearings on the arbor shaft push on the inner race). Also measure where your blade is at now (left to right) and try to get it exactly in the same spot. Otherwise your zero clearance insert will no longer be zero clearance.

[Myk Rian]

If you need new belts, make sure the new ones are the same diameter of each other. Some sets come mis-matched.

For bearings many restorers, myself included, go to Accurate Bearing. https://www.accuratebearing.com/
Best quality and service. I always dealt with Lynne.

[Lee Schierer]

Make sure you measure the location of the bearing closest to the blade so you can place the new one in the same location. Otherwise the blade may not end up in the same location in the throat plate and any jig you have may not work with the new location.

[Jak Kelly]

I had this same issue just a couple months ago. Mine may have been a little bit more obvious. Now my saw had been making a funny noise since I packed the cabinet full of saw dust, I did this milling down some dunage boards that I made a work-bench top out of. Anyway, one day the saw started making a horrific noise during a cut, shut it off asap, unplugged the machine and went to examine it. Blade would not turn by hand. My arbor bearings were shot! Over 10 years of service on them, guess I cannot complain. But I was also in the middle of a project and went into "nuclear melt-down" knowing that I would have to wait until Monday to order new ones, from Grizzly.
So Sunday I go out to the shop to tear things down, did a little research and learned that the bearings were a common automotive type bearing!! I had it up and running within hours after that.

[Bill Dufour]

Note that pretty much all ball bearings are metric so measure them in metric. Do not try to measure in English units and convert. Some limited farm equipment may have semi custom inch bore bearings nothing. you will see in a post war woodshop.
Bill D

[Bob Riefer]

I had a chance to get the belts off today. Saw unplugged through all of this except where noted.

First... I was able to loosen the motor mount bolt so that the belts had plenty of slack, and was able to slip them off the motor pulley easily. But, it was really a bugger to try to then remove the belts from the machine entirely as there is no space between the arbor pulley and what I think is called the "trunnion yoke". Interestingly, the downloaded Grizzly 1023 manual that I have (as i bought the saw used and it did not come with its original manual) does not show this item in the parts diagram... I do see this part mentioned in Delta Unisaw diagrams however. There are no identifying brand markers on the saw that I can find, so perhaps it's not a 1023 afterall? All other parts diagram items match exactly though... shrug. Anyways, I couldn't get the belts out without removing the top surface of the saw, and (read below) it seemed clear that removing the top was needed anyways... I'd like to figure out the answer for future instances, but for today, it was fine.

So, I went about removing the outfeed table, taking apart the portion of dust collection system that would be in my way, and had my wife help me remove the top. She wasn't quite strong enough and stumbled into a blast gate for my nearby jointer which I will now have to re-build. Damn, but no one was hurt (I'll use my neighbor for help putting the top back on). Once we got the table leaned on the floor I could move it around by myself and it's presently leaning against the wall, out of the way.

Removing the top enabled me to get the belts off. They looked fine. One had a very tiny crack in one spot, but all three seemed to me to be identical in size and shape, and overall appeared like-new. I'll replace them anyways since I'm doing surgery, but I don't think belts were the problem.

With the belts removed, I hand-turned the arbor which felt crunchy in the forward direction, and literally wouldn't turn in the backwards direction. If I tried to give it a spin to see how long it would go, it would go about 1/2 of one rotation. I also hand turned the motor which rotated easily and smoothly, and the same spin test resulted in about 10 revolutions. I momentarily plugged the saw back in and ran the motor for a few seconds - nearly silent during its operation.

So, I think it's time to pull the arbor apart per the videos I've found (one from Grizzly for this exact model, another very similar for Unisaw).

Before I do, it's a sawdust desert inside that cabinet right now, so I'm going to clean it up and attempt to install some sort of chute that will guide dust towards my dust intake pipe more efficiently.

Wish me luck!

[Bill Dufour]

This should help since the 12/14 is just a overgrown unisaw.
Bil lD.
http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/1214ArborBearings.ashx

[Bob Riefer]

Not going so smoothly so far...

I was able to get (what I'll call) the arbor assembly pulled out of the saw following steps like found around the 4:15 mark of this Unisaw video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwWrOl-pukQ). (He calls this assembly the "arbor bracket")

The next steps in that video include removing the nut from the end of the assembly, and then a couple set screws that hold the arbor pulley in place. Whether you look at a Unisaw or Grizzly 1023 parts diagram, these parts and steps are very similar.

Here's the issue... The arbor pulley in my case doesn't have any set screws. There's one "pitted" area that I thought could be a diagonally-oriented set screw, but the mechanic next door and I looked at it really closely and think it's really just a pit.

Anyone ever seen an arbor pulley that doesn't have set screws? I don't want to start pounding on it if I'm missing something...

[Alex Zeller]

I would pound on it at all. Get yourself a bearing puller and a gear puller to pull the bearings and pulley off the arbor. It's possible that the set screw is down in one of the belt grooves. If you are positive that there's no set screw I would pull the one bearing off and then try pulling the pulley. It could just be the key and the nut on the end of the arbor is all that holds it. Or it could be the factory forgot to put the set screw in the pulley.

[Ronald Blue]

Pictures might help here. It's hard to fathom there not being a set screw. It's likely not going to be a taper lock pulley and it won't fit the shaft tight enough to be secure without a setscrew. Good luck.

[Barry Versteegh]

Is this a taper lock sheave and bushing type pulley they do not have set screws.

[Bob Riefer]

I'm in the process of figuring out paypal so I can contribute and see pics (my wife has an account I can use, but she's out right now)... But in the meantime, I think I can post and you all can see.

PS - my shop is not normally the tornado-like mess that you're about to witness


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[Jim Becker]

Bob, you don't need a PayPal account to contribute...PayPal is just the clearing house for the transaction on a credit card. When you click to pay, you don't have to put in any PayPal credentials..there's an option for that. When you get to the PayPal screen, click on the light blue button at the bottom labeled "Pay with debit or credit card"

Based on your photos, I think the folks have have suggested a puller of some kind are spot on. That pulley may be there by some "frictional" means. Worse case, call Grizzly and speak to a customer support technician to see if they can clue you into the procedure necessary for you to do what you need to do.

[Matt Day]

If there are spacers (Bushings) on either side of the pulley, and a key on the shaft you don’t need a set screw. That “pitting” could be a material removed to balance it.

Try pushing the arbor through the bearings with a bearing puller if it won’t go with a hammer. If you use a hammer, use a block of wood so you don’t strike directly on the shaft.

“Frictional” means is called a press fit I believe.

There are lots of videos and information on the web about replacing arbor bearings.

[Bob Riefer]

Jim - thanks for the heads up on payment methods, I was able to get that processed now. Also, thank you for all your helpful posts - I see your name in all the threads that I read. Much appreciated!

Matt - I'm hoping you're right that it's a friction fit that can be handled with a gear/bearing puller tool. My local auto store allows such tools to be borrowed and returned for free, so that's a good price :-) I sent the same pics as above to Grizzly (who have been really awesome in replying in detail to my questions) to verify, and then I'll give it a try.

(Yes, watched MANY videos on replacing arbor bearings... thanks for the tip... 100% that I've found so far have set screws on the arbor pulley... my saw's arbor pulley doesn't have those. Once past this hurdle, I think the rest of the process appears doable)

[Jim Becker]

My pleasure to help as always, Bob.

I worked in Collegeville/Trappe many years ago when I lived in Royersford and also played piano with some students at Ursinus in a jazz group as they didn't have a student to do that. My spouse at the time was a student there; hence, the connection. That's a great area and again, I'm so glad you did all the restoration work on your property.

[Jacob Reverb]

Note that pretty much all ball bearings are metric so measure them in metric. Do not try to measure in English units and convert.

Bill - Not sure I follow you here. What's the potential problem with converting from English to metric? All my calipers and micrometers (microYARDS? LOL) are in English units and I want to be sure I don't screw up (again)... I generally just use Google to convert ("0.382 inch in mm") and it's worked so far...

[John Stankus]

In one of the pictures there is a circlip (the picture that says nut already removed). Could the circlip be holding everything in?

John

[Bob Riefer]

In one of the pictures there is a circlip (the picture that says nut already removed). Could the circlip be holding everything in?

John

I don't think so (based on videos I've watch).. I think that clip holds the bearing in place but doesn't directly impact the arbor shaft.


I just heard back from Grizzly... I have to say that I am very impressed with their responsiveness and level of knowledge.

They think that my saw is quite old given the color of the paint and the trunnion yoke.

He confirmed the comment a few posts ago that the "pit" was likely to help with balancing, and that machines of this age range (at least from Grizzly) did not have arbor pulley set screws.

He also told me NOT to use a gear puller... he prefers that I use a block of wood and hammer it out. He didn't tell me why, but he was strong on that point, so I'm going to listen.

With all these pieces of information, I'm going to go for it over the next couple days.

Worst case scenario... the arbor assembly is replaceable for $195. I'd hate to have to resort to that (preferring instead to sink money to a newer tool) but it's an option.

[Bob Riefer]

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHH!

I had it! I totally had it! I had the entire assembly apart, but was having a hell of a time getting the bearings out. They were in AWFUL shape and really stuck in there.

Following videos online on how to remove stuck bearings, I broke the arbor bracket.

I guess I'm off to either purchase the replacement part from Grizzly, or perhaps ebay if I can find it cheaper.

From so happy to so bummed in the span of about 30 seconds.

Darn. I guess I should have soaked it in wd-40 or similar.

[Lee Schierer]

When working with cast iron you need to be very careful. Hitting it with a hammer is always a bad idea as cast iron is brittle. An arbor press or bearing puller are the ideal tools for inserting and removing bearings.

I hope you can find a replacement casting. It might be possible to weld the part you have, but getting the correct alignment will be difficult.

[Matt Day]

Bummer! Sorry that I should’ve explained more about using a hammer with brittle cast iron.

When I remove bearings I usually press them out using a bearing puller. In that case I would hook the arms onto the cast iron, and using a similarly sized socket, push the bearing out. If I was going to use a hammer, I would support the cast-iron.

So sorry that happened! At least you learned something about the properties of cast-iron.

[Bob Riefer]

Sigh, yeah, total bummer.

The Grizzly video on the topic, and their email written instructions both said to hammer the bearing out... the email even said NOT to use a puller. So I (incorrectly) assumed I was in good shape.

$240 gets me a new and complete assembly (including new bearings) directly from Grizzly, so I should be back in business on Friday when that arrives.

While I have the top off, I'll replace the belts and see if I can figure out a method to funnel sawdust more efficiently to the 4" DC pipe that i have in the cabinet (I have a 2" pipe above the table to the blade guard too).

[Rick Potter]

Sorry about your problem. I just have to say that I am amazed that Grizzly would have a part for a saw that old.

Hope you get it back up and running soon.

[Bob Riefer]

Sorry about your problem. I just have to say that I am amazed that Grizzly would have a part for a saw that old.

Hope you get it back up and running soon.


From what I gather, certain parts on some of these saws have remained largely unchanged over the years, so luckily this was the case this time around.

The arbor assembly I purchased has minor nuances that are different than my original, but none of those affect the fit or functionality.

[Bob Riefer]

Sigh............. Still on this journey.

The replacement part arrived today, and I was so excited to get the saw tuned up and running again.

But, it turns out the teeth on the new arbor bracket assembly are thicker than the teeth on the original part. So, once the part is installed, and you turn the hand wheel to raise/lower the blade, the "worm" (screw thread looking part that rotates when you turn the hand wheel) gets stuck on the thicker teeth.

My first instinct is to clamp the old part to the new part, and use a fine file to remove some material from the teeth on the new part... stopping when it matches the original part's teeth.

My second thought is to buy a new "worm" part.

In any case, I have both these ideas in to Grizzly for their opinion, but figured I'd see what you all think.

[Alex Zeller]

I would buy the worm gear to make sure the two mesh together well. I wonder if they went with that design to avoid being sued by Powermatic or if they thought that having a bearing on either side of the pulley was needed? Hopefully it lasts a lifetime for you so you never have to go through this again.

[Jim Becker]

I think I'd opt for the new worm gear so they are a matched set from the get-go. Filing will give you the clearance, but is 1) a lot of work and 2) nearly impossible to get every tooth identical.

[Bob Riefer]

I agree... Ordered the worm gear - it's going to take over a week to get here, which will hopefully be the end of this situation for many years to come.

[Bob Riefer]

Does anyone know how to remove the worm gear from the hand wheel shaft for the blade height adjustment assembly?

I was able to remove the nut at the back end of this assembly, and the hand wheel from the front end... so I can move the shaft forward/backward by about 1 inch, which is not enough play to pull the part out of the saw.

There are set screws of some unknown type holding the worm gear to the shaft... My thought was to figure out how to remove these set screws, slide the worm gear towards the back of the shaft, thus allowing me to slide the shaft further forward >>> which would allow the back end of the shaft to come free >>> slide the whole shaft back now until it comes free.

Is that the process? Or do I need to disassemble the entire damn saw?

[Matt Day]

Pics of exactly what you’re talking about would help. There might be tapered pins or roll pins holding it on, which would need to be knocked out with a punch.

[Bob Coates]

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=420184&d=1574607603
From this picture, and what I conclude from parts diagram it looks like if your remove parts 23,24 and 69 -- assuming you have removed 10+ -- from parts manual, the shaft should slide out. 24 seems to have two sets screws. 23 has one. It is not clear the function of part 27 and if is blocking the removal of rod. Your good comments are blocking some of the parts so this may not be correct. I do not have or have ever seen this machine.
Bob

[Bob Riefer]

Here’s a pic without the comment box in the way

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[Mikail Khan]

The 1023 manual is online and it shows a set screw. Item 43.

420605

[Bob Riefer]

Yes, I see the set screw, took the picture above purposely showing that set screw, and have the manual just about memorized (I sleep with it under my pillow at this stage in the game). :-) My questions are...

Is loosening the worm gear set screw and attempting to remove the shaft without any additional disassembly of the tool the process to follow?

If yes, any recommendations on easiest removal method? The fit of all parts are very tight so sliding the worm gear very far down the shaft isn't a piece of cake (i.e. it will only want to move easily towards the hand wheel direction... which is blocked by the cabinet right now).. In other words, loosening a set screw doesn't suddenly allow parts to move freely in all directions.

Or must I disassemble nearby portions of the saw in order to remove the shaft?

[Bob Riefer]

This may sound "hack" way of doing this... but a thought (because I think that more disassembly than I'm willing to risk/entertain is probably going to be required to remove that shaft the "correct" way)..

If I cut a small hole in the back of the cabinet, directly behind the shaft, then I can loosen the stop collar and slide the entire shaft backwards (so it extends through the cut hole) far enough that I can remove the worm gear from the front of the shaft... all without ever entirely removing the shaft from the saw. Replace that gear, slide back into position, patch the hole in the back of the saw.

I'm just concerned about opening increasingly big can of worms on a saw that was running perfectly, and has now proven that replacement parts are not perfect matches.

[Alex Zeller]

It the parts aren't a perfect match but at least it seams like you can get it working. My 25 year old PM66 has very few parts still being made for it. It's either find used or break the saw down and sell the good parts on ebay.

[Bob Riefer]

Totally :-( I found some reasonable options for hole cutting saws that I can chuck into my drill to make a nice clean hole behind the shaft so that my approach above can be attempted. That would allow the rest of the perfectly-functioning aspects of the saw to remain untouched. The saw is a great performer if we can get over this issue (although, per other thread that I just posted today... I might be repairing and selling this saw in favor of purchasing another)

[Bob Coates]

Bob,
If it not too late, I would try and loosen and move the collar before drilling the hole.

Bob

[Bob Riefer]

The collar is able to be loosened and moved... the issue is that this only gets me about 1 inch of movement relief on the shaft before it hits the back of the cabinet... and I need it to move closer to 4 inches in order for the front of the shaft to be free, and 6 inches for it to be free with enough room for the worm gear to be removed towards the front of the cabinet.

The other option that I can think of is to gently sand the entire shaft to remove paint (etc.) in hopes that the worm gear and collar could both be slid off the shaft the other direction towards the back of the cabinet (i.e. pulling the shaft forward through the hole near where the hand wheel is attached).. I fear that this is a really long way to slide the worm gear and I'd be willing to bet it's going to be a very very tight fit the entire time. (whereas sliding the worm hear in the other direction is the direction is was originally assembled from... and bare, lightly oiled surface)

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

Bob

I can no offer no intelligent advice for you on this problem, but I have enjoyed the story so far.

You have made me feel better about the shop cleaning project I started last month and I am now in week 6 of reorganization and dust collection upgrade.

[Jim Becker]

I would hazard a guess that those components are installed prior to the trunnion being attached to the cabinet. That's why there is no clearance to remove the component because of the cabinet blocking the motion.

[Mike Kees]

I think Jim is correct. There are only four bolts on the "corners'' holding the trunnion in place in the cabinet. I think your life would be far easier if you pulled it out of the cabinet first and then you will not have to drill a hole and it will be far easier to work on. I would also scratch the location of the trunnion corners on the cabinet with a screwdriver to make reassembly easier. Hope this all works out for you .

[Bob Riefer]

So the entire "trunion assembly" (probably not the right term) comes out as one piece once those corner bolts are removed? I was concerned that I'd be left with many individual pieces, with my experience thus far being that they are very difficult to get back together again.

Also, my guess is that this approach is probably easiest if I remove the motor first (else it will be pretty heavy to move all together) - I think that's just a bolt and a cotter pin holding that in place if memory serves.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, that's actually the key design that makes it a "cabinet saw"...the trunnion mounted to the cabinet rather than to the table.

[Bob Riefer]

Yes I get that. I’m just wondering if it all comes out as a single
piece. There are multiple moving parts entailed

[Jim Becker]

AFAIK, the whole trunnion should lift out after you remove the bolts and remove any hand-wheels, etc., that penetrate through the cabinet. But I don't have a cabinet saw to physically look at to confirm.

[Alex Zeller]

I can't tell you how Grizzly does it with that saw but with the PM66 the assembly minus the shaft that tilts the arbor. Because PM66 has a splitter there's a shaft that supports the splitter that has to be removed first. I would guess it comes out pretty easy but you just need to look at parts that might prevent it from coming out. If it's similar to a Unisaw you should be able to find a video on that saw to help you.

[Bill Dufour]

Better then scratching around the piece to be removed is a quick spraypaint job. May want to do a quick masking with tinfoil to control over spray. Makes getting everything back in place much easier.
Bil lD

[Bob Riefer]

OMG, if you want to marvel at someone's knowledge (while also cowering in bewilderment):

http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/How%20to%20Properly%20Clean%20a%20Unisaw.ashx

[Bob Riefer]

BIG WIN!!!

My hack method worked.

I sanded and polished the shaft until the stop collar moved freely. I cut a hole in back of the cabinet. A couple more steps. Worm gear removed without disassembling the entire saw.

New gear should be here tomorrow.

[Bob Riefer]

New worm gear arrived, and fits the existing shaft!

Sadly, they (of course) did not send the needed set screw that goes with the gear, and it never even occurred to me to wonder about that... I assumed those two items traveled together as a set (I forgot that this is bizarro table saw land where everything is difficult).

As noted in my other thread in this saga... I picked up my new saw yesterday.. so I'm momentarily shifting gears (pun intended) to get that setup and working, and then I'll return to this repair before selling the saw.

[Jim Becker]

Fortunately, set screws are easily obtainable from TrueValue and other hardware retailers...you just need to determine the threading. Take the part with you so you can work that out in the store.

[Tom Bussey]

If the bearings are bad the arbor is probably toast also. If it is a right tilt saw, Delta uni arbores and bearings fit.

[Bob Riefer]

I got it!

After much trial and error, I was able to install the new arbor bracket and worm gear into the saw.

The new bracket is bulkier than the old one, so the blade is slightly less than 1/8" further left than it used to be.... If I were to set the blade aligned to the splitter, the other side of the bracket would hit the trunnion yoke. So I'll instead adjust the splitter and the insert (or cut a new zero clearance one).

Also, the the new bracket and worm gear cause the blade in it's lowest position to be slightly above the table top surface, so I will shim each corner to compensate.

Belts are re-installed, motor tightened in position. Test run successful (and will try a test cut tomorrow when I reinstall the top.

After all this.... The machine will go up for sale (along with a link to this thread so that someone understands the history).

[Alex Zeller]

I think what you've done is upgrade the saw to parts that can be bought if they ever need replacing. To me that a bonus if I was buying the saw.