Buying from auctions and 3 phase power

[Ben Grefe]

Well, I've jumped into the exciting world of buying tools at auction. I recently won a 3ph '220v/440v' Wilton 20 inch disc sander from a place ~10 miles from my house. Pickup is tomorrow.

Given the price I paid for this thing, I have some leeway to get it running. Obviously I'd like to do this as inexpensively as possible, but I also want a quality tool. Given that, I have a few questions for those who have done this before.

First, I'm assuming that when I go to pick it up tomorrow with my Tacoma Tacoma pickup they'll help me load it, atleast with a forklift. It looks like total weight on this thing is roughly 500lbs. Am I wrong? I'll bring a dolly with me, but I can't bring an engine hoist.

Second, when I get it home I'm going to go over it and look for damage. None was listed, but I understand the risk of an online-only auction. I'd like to test the existing motor before I commit to a VFD (in case I just need to buy a new motor I'll go single phase). Is there any way I can power this 3 phase 3 hp motor, even if temporarily, to make sure the bearings are ok?

Third, which type of VFD should I get for this thing? It was listed as a 220/440v 3 phase motor. I only see a 220v option or 440v option when I search for a new Wilton, so I'm hoping I got the 220v model. I'm a home shop so I won't put very heavy use on this thing.

[Patrick Kane]

Hey Ben,

I have a couple three phase tools on VFDs. It is to the point that i kinda wish i had gone with a RPC at the start. If you think this is the first of many three phase tools, then i might advise you to think about the future. For example, some tools are just not suited to being converted via a VFD. A planer will typically have a feed motor, a cutterhead motor, and sometimes a motor to power the rise/fall of the table. However, if this sander is it, then a single purpose VFD is really cheap and straight forward.

I hate to say it, but you really should clarify if the pickup has a forklift. Most of the auctions ive purchased from had a forklift, but a lot of the time the forklift is on the docket, so if the guy shows up early to get it, then there isnt a forklift anymore. Theres a good chance you will be good to go tomorrow, but if there isnt a lift, then you are SOL. Best to call next time if it isnt abundantly clear in the pick up instructions.

Good luck, hope it works out well. Also hope you arent near me!! Once I get a new space and more power, im going to be a whirlwind with machine acquisitions. there was just a martin t-17 that sold at auction for $550, that i would have picked up in a heartbeat if i had the room. If you pay attention and are patient, several deals present themselves each year that are too good to pass on.

[Darcy Warner]

That t17 had no original parts.

[Ben Grefe]

Patrick, I'm in Seattle so I don't think we're overlapping.

I guess I'm learning as I go here. I'll call next time. The good news is that I'm forced to go pick it up within the first 30 minutes of opening due to my work schedule. Hopefully the forklift is there or somebody else is still in a good mood. So far this experience has been smooth (bidding, paying, communicating).

I suspect this is one of the few 3 phase tools that I'll buy (others being jointer / bandsaw). None of them are going to sit near each other as well. I'd like to get a VFD with a brake as I've seen the disc sanders can spin for 5 minutes due to the momentum of their wheels. That worries me from a safety standpoint.

[Matt Day]

If that Wilton is like my State you’ll want to keep the motor, not an easy motor swap I don’t think. There’s a 99% chance the motor will work just fine. 3 phase motors are pretty bombproof. Taking the end bell off and removing dust buildup is a good idea. Spinning the disc by hand should give you some idea of the state of the bearings. I replaced mine just because I’d rather do it when I had it apart and I know they are good to go.

I generally use Factorymation Teco FM50 VFDs. Not the cheapest but still inexpensive and they come with real human support if need be. Order the VFD based on the motor size. If it’s 3hp or under no derating is necessary, so a 1/2hp motor gets a 1/2hp vfd. Your Wilton is likely 1hp or under.

I use a 1hp VFD for both my pedestal grinder and disc sander and spindle sander. I use the same mushroom on/off switch and change the motor plug depending on what machine.

I have 7 machines on vfd’s, so far.

Lifting point on my State was to sling around the motor, and mine weighs around 450 I think. I took it partially apart to transport since I would need to do so to get it into my basement anyway. So bring some tools with you to do so in case you have to resort to it. And don’t transport it standing up as it’s top heavy.

[Carl Beckett]

Buy a winch. Some stout planks. The combo will drag a lot of stuff into the back of a PU

I have a static phase converter I used on a 10hp 3ph belt sander for years. The purists dont like them, but they are cheap (used) and will let you run your machine.

[Edward Dyas]

You can get some great old machinery cheap which run on three phase. Myself I got a rotary phase converter. The one unit will run all my three phase machinery.

[Richard Coers]

Monster starting load on that sander. Worked on one in Caterpillar's Model Shop. It was a rare situation where you ran it all the way up to full speed. 75% of the time we'd run it up to around 3/4 speed, shut it off, sand the parts, and it would still be running when we walked away. I'd swear it takes 5 minutes to come to a stop. In the pattern makers shop, they turned them on in the morning and shut them off before going home. Especially the 36" sanders. Took too long to wind up. I never timed a full start up, but had to be around 20-30 seconds. That's a lot of load for a VFD.

[Bill Dufour]

A disk sander can be used as an extra idler motor to add more hp to a rpc setup. To brake that sander you will need a vfd that actually has braking terminals. Many smaller China ones do not or they have the terminals which are not actually connected on the circuit board electrically to anything. My Huang Yang 3hp vfd has the terminals visible and mentioned in the manual. But a careful inspection shows there is no circuit trace to the terminals.
Most home shop guys would do nothing with the braking circuit antway or maybe install a heating coil for a braking resister and think it is doing some good. "it works so well it doesn't even get warm."
Electric. stove heating elements are often used as a resistance dump load.
Bill D.

[Dan Jansen]

I’d definitely bring some tools along just in case you need to take it apart. Hopefully someone will be around to help load. There’s a good chance it could be tipped into the bed of your truck but I’ve never loaded a big disc sander so I’m not 100% sure on that.

I’m pretty sure it’s possible to test a three phase by connecting two leads from a 220v power source and wrapping a cord around the pulley and giving it a pull to get the rotation going. I’ve never tried this but have read about it being done. I’d probably just pull the trigger on the VFD and test with it.

You’ll want to take a look at the motor plate to confirm it can be changed to 220v. If the motor is 440v only then it can still be done but requires a transformer. Again, never done it, just read about it.

One thing I’ve actually done is I’ve put a TECO FM50 on my 3ph bandsaw. It works great and has a brake feature but my bandsaw has a foot brake so I programmed it to coast. You may need to add a brake resistor given the mass of the 20” wheel. I love the soft start and my saw builds up to full speed over a few seconds. YouTube has some great how-to videos.

[Bill Dufour]

Read the rules very carefully... Many machinery auctions do not allow buyers to load out anything. They have to pay a bonded rigger to forklift it to your vehicle. This can be a scam of only one rigger allowed so they can jack up prices and pay a kickback to the auction house. I would expect around $500 to load out your machine. They might charge $50 dollars to wheel it out on a handtruck or under their arms.
Bil lD.

[Ben Grefe]

Lots of good info.

I read the rules carefully and there’s nothing about hiring a rigging company. I’ll watch out for that in the future.

This is a 3hp 20inch model. It’s literally identical to the Powermatic 20 inch disc sander (clearly was made in the same factory). After some research, it’s a 220v/440v motor, you just have to wire it differently.

Forgive my ignorance on the brake controller wiring - the extra terminals on the VFD would go to a massive resistor, nothing to do with the motor wiring, right?

I saw that the Huan Yang VFD’s (which seem low priced) want you to contact them if you’ll be using a brake resistor and they special make them. Any advice on other low price VFD’s to go with?

[Bill Dufour]

Yes, On the Huan Yang I am familiar with you attach a big resistor to the braking terminals only. No other wiring needed. But that wiring has to be safe and not touchable. I would mount it inside the machines steel base out of the way. It needs some airflow to allow cooling. Mine is mounted inside my lathes hollow plinth
Bill D

[Patrick Irish]

I encountered a situation like this buying a 3 phase 16" 1,100lb powermatic planer via auction. Had to rent a giant lift gate penske truck. I did pick up a jointer on the same trip.

Regarding the motor. I had 5hp 3phase I successfully wired with a hyunwang (spelling) VFD from amazon. It was a pain but it worked....temporarily. I was using the dryer outlet as my plug and the breaker as my on/off. Not ideal but it worked until one day the VFD popped.

If you're going with a VFD go with a brand with tech support. I ended up swapping in a 5hp single phase a new magnetic starter which equaled what I paid for the planer. I sold the 5hp 3ph motor for $50.

Finding a motor shouldnt be a problem if you match frame mount. A 3hp vfd will be $200-$300 for a good brand. They don't like being unplugged and be sure to wire a switch to turn on the VFD and not us plugging/unplugging it to turn it on.

[Bill Dufour]

A big rotating mass like that will generate back EMF for a long time as it coasts down. This back EMF can fry a VFD's power buss by backfeeding. So it is probably a good idea to have resistor to soak that up before it damages the VFD after many runs.
Bil lD.

[Matt Day]

My State sander takes 16 minutes to spin down. I have a resistor for it, just need to get around to installing it.

[Darcy Warner]

My State sander takes 16 minutes to spin down. I have a resistor for it, just need to get around to installing it.

My 37" dual disc Oliver takes 90 minutes to stop if I turn off the braking on the vfd.

[Matt Day]

Well aren’t you bigger and better, huh Darcy?! ;-)

[Patrick Kane]

My 37" dual disc Oliver takes 90 minutes to stop if I turn off the braking on the vfd.

That is unbelievable. Ballpark,what do the disks weigh?

True, it was an incomplete machine, but still, I wouldnt mind a contemporary cross cut fence extrusion from Felder or similar. The missing rip fence replaced by a bies was a big bummer.

[Alex Zeller]

Congrats on the new to you sander. The auctions can get addictive. I have several I watch and recently picked up a Powermatic 66 table saw for a fraction of what I could of bought a new Grizzly for. The next week at a different location a Delta Unisaw went for about the same price. My advice is too look at the pictures or even better yet see it in person if you can. My 66 was listed as 3 phase but was only single phase. I started looking into getting a VFD for it and what I found was the cheap Chinese ones didn't have that great of a track record. I was going to step up to the next level. More than twice the cost but if the cheap one dies suddenly the savings are gone.

When it comes to auctions pay attention to fees. Things like buyer's fees (usually 10% to 15%), sales tax, and loading charges. A loading charge usually means they will load it for you. With my 66 there was a $25 loading fee. It was already on a pallet and loading it took the guy maybe a minute so he didn't charge me. If you don't see a loading fee assume that you will have to load it yourself or hire a rigger. Be careful when it comes to loading it yourself. Some auctions will require proof of insurance so if you get hurt while loading it you can't sue them. It was required for my 66 purchase but they never asked for proof. Plenty of deals out there as long as you don't get caught up in a bidding war.

[Darcy Warner]

That is unbelievable. Ballpark,what do the disks weigh?

True, it was an incomplete machine, but still, I wouldnt mind a contemporary cross cut fence extrusion from Felder or similar. The missing rip fence replaced by a bies was a big bummer.

I was told about 125 pounds each. Originally it was set up with a chain fall to remove discs to glue new paper on them.

[Ben Grefe]

Alright, well the first part of this adventure is over. The sander is in my shop!

The place I bought this from is an 'online only' auction. No previews or inspections allowed and they require pickup before the weekend as they host live used car auctions every weekend.

Anyways, onto the pickup. I drove over to the address (again, less than 10 miles from my house) listed on the sheet and.... it was an apartment complex. After scratching my head for a few minutes I picked up google and realized their invoice sheet swapped numbers on the address. Turns out the place is 1/2 a mile closer to me. Once I got there some other buyers were mulling about and mentioning how the 2 guys in charge were in a bad mood. I waited my turn, showed them my paid invoice and they directed me to the sander. At this point they asked what kind of help I wanted (load with forklift, lifting help or use of a pallet jack). The sander wasn't on a pallet so I asked if I could do some minor disassembly to make my unload easier. 'Its all yours, take all the time you want'.

After 15 minutes of careful disassembly I got it down to the core machine. I'm guessing the motor, wheel, leg and base combined weigh 400+ lbs. The tables, trunions, electronics and arms add atleast another 100+ lbs. Using the dolly I brought I wheeled it over to my truck and then the attendants and another buyer mulled around with my while I contemplated loading. In the end another buyer helped me lift and tilt the sander into my truck bed. All in I was there for 30 minutes. The people there could not have been nicer or more helpful. It was the opposite of what I expected or my first impression.

To get the sander out of my truck bed at home I used an engine hoist to support the base and slowly lowered it down, using the tailgate as a pivot on the motor. Plywood helped everything slide easily.

Now I've got the thing in my shop, disassembled, waiting for the next steps. I tried turning the plate and it spins super smooth and frankly the entire unit looks like it has seen gentle use. I'd rate it as 9/10 condition.

I'm going to put it on a mobile base and then park it until after Thanksgiving, at which point I get figure out how to wire it. Gives me a few weeks to figure out the best VFD.

419465

I should add, given how close this place is AND how helpful the staff was, I will be buying from them in the future. Checking out their future auctions, they get woodworking stuff through often.

[Richard Coers]

Lots of good info.

I read the rules carefully and there’s nothing about hiring a rigging company. I’ll watch out for that in the future.

This is a 3hp 20inch model. It’s literally identical to the Powermatic 20 inch disc sander (clearly was made in the same factory). After some research, it’s a 220v/440v motor, you just have to wire it differently.

Forgive my ignorance on the brake controller wiring - the extra terminals on the VFD would go to a massive resistor, nothing to do with the motor wiring, right?

I saw that the Huan Yang VFD’s (which seem low priced) want you to contact them if you’ll be using a brake resistor and they special make them. Any advice on other low price VFD’s to go with?
If it's 220/440, it's not 3 phase.

[Darcy Warner]

If it's 220/440, it's not 3 phase.

Uh, what brings you to that conclusion? I can't remember the last time I saw a 440v single phase motor on anything.

[Bradley Gray]

I have about 10 3 phase machines that are 220/440

[Frank Pratt]

If it's 220/440, it's not 3 phase.

North American utility voltages are 120/240V single phase, or 120/208V 3 phase. I'm not aware of anywhere that offers higher voltages than 240V in single phase. Going up the voltage ladder, there is 277/480V 3 phase. In much of Canada the 480V 3 phase has been 'phased' out in favor of 347/600V.

Motor voltage ratings for North American motors will be 115V, 208V, 230V, 460V or 575V. I can't remember just why motors have the oddball voltage ratings, but that's the way it is.

Two voltages you won't find are 110V and 220V. They just don't exist. Not from the utility, not on a motor nameplate.

Again, I'm talking North American here.

[Darcy Warner]

I have plenty of motors that say 110v and 220v.

That was supply voltage back 70 years or so, as demand got bigger, supply voltage was bumped up, 115v 230/460
Now we are at 120 240/480

[Dan Jansen]

Awesome news! I’m glad it worked out so smooth.

I also wanted to add that if you buy a VFD with the coast feature, you won’t need to worry about a braking resistor if you just let it coast...apparently anywhere from 15 to 90 minutes!

[Frank Pratt]

I have plenty of motors that say 110v and 220v.

That was supply voltage back 70 years or so, as demand got bigger, supply voltage was bumped up, 115v 230/460
Now we are at 120 240/480

Darcy, I just knew someone would pop up with an exception :) I'm speaking to stuff of recent vintage. There are lots of foreign motors that have all kinds of odd (to us) voltage ratings.

I believe that standard utility voltage went straight from 110/220V to 120/240V, as you say, about 70 years ago. I guess the 115V or 230V ratings came about because around then there would be both 120/240V and 110/220V installations

[David Kumm]

I have to let my Kindt Collins sander coast to stop. A vfd won't have a big enough resistor to slow the disk very quickly. You can add one for cheap but I've never needed to slow the disk with anything other than a scrap of wood. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

Darcy, I just knew someone would pop up with an exception :) I'm speaking to stuff of recent vintage. There are lots of foreign motors that have all kinds of odd (to us) voltage ratings.

I believe that standard utility voltage went straight from 110/220V to 120/240V, as you say, about 70 years ago. I guess the 115V or 230V ratings came about because around then there would be both 120/240V and 110/220V installations

It was just the next increase in supply voltage, it's the era of 230/460v motors. Not sure when the bump to 240/480 started.

No matter what though, 10% either way is fine for a motor.