Time To Eat Crow

[ken hatch]

For years I've had a thing about tail vises, end vises, wagon vises, for that matter anything that hangs off or works from the right end of my right handed bench. I've thought they were not worth the time or money to install. That there were better ways to do the same job from a cost/benefit/complexity view.

Here comes the crow and I must say with a helping fava beans it may be quite tasty. Will Meyers has come up with a wagon vise designed for his benches but usable on almost any bench. From its looks, it looks to address most of my concerns about wagon vises. I've ordered one, it should arrive next week. I've a BC Classic screw and a 14" crisscross on a shelf, once the wagon vise hardware arrives I'll start sourcing wood for a base and slab. I expect this build will have a 7' to 8' slab, other than that just a standard Moravian bench but with a metal vise screw, crisscross, and a wagon vise.

Then come the real question: Which of the current benches gets kicked off the island?

ken

[Andrew Seemann]

At this point, you might as well go full over to the dark side and experience the joys of a shoulder vise. :)

[ken hatch]

At this point, you might as well go full over to the dark side and experience the joys of a shoulder vise. :)


Andrew,

LOL, it ain't gonna happen :D. Can you figure out a way to do a shoulder vise with slanted legs, boggles my mind.

ken

[Mike Manning]

No pics or link to an ad for the new vise? Congrats! You certainly seem excited plus an excuse to build another bench. ;0)

[Jim Koepke]

Will Meyers has come up with a wagon vise designed for his benches but usable on almost any bench. From its looks, it looks to address most of my concerns about wagon vises.

Do you have a link to his wagon vise?

My tail vise is used all the time. At one time a wagon vise seemed like it might be a good idea. Over time it seemed limited compared to the simple vise that is currently my tail vise.

jtk

[ken hatch]

A link to Will Myers blog:

https://eclecticmechanicals.com/2019/11/11/moravian-tail-vises-available/

ken
(https://eclecticmechanicals.com/2019/11/11/moravian-tail-vises-available/)

[ken hatch]

Do you have a link to his wagon vise?

My tail vise is used all the time. At one time a wagon vise seemed like it might be a good idea. Over time it seemed limited compared to the simple vise that is currently my tail vise.

jtk

Mike,

Busted, but my story is because it is mostly an excuse to use the BC Classic screw and 14" crisscross I've stored and a little "Oh boy a new bench build" :p.

ken

ken

[Christopher Charles]

Poor crow.

Chris

[Christopher Charles]

I will say that is a clever and elegant design. Too bad about the round dog hole though :)

[Steve Southwood]

Will has had that vise out for some time now. There was a post on the old WKTools site that spec'ed out the parts if you want to build your own.

[James Pallas]

Ken, I believe I have figured out a way for a tail vise. I’ve had the hard maple for nearly 2 years now to build the pictured bench modeled here. Health crap has curtailed my shop work at present. I still plan to build. My plan is to have both rear legs splayed. The left front angled with a leg vise. The right front leg vertical. The leg tenons will be secured the regular way and the vertical leg will be secured with folding wedges through the tenon from the front and rear.
Jim
PS sorry about the photos. Loosing my touch. I like tail vises. Had one for years. Sold the bench in a move. Been bemoaning that decision for many years.

[William Fretwell]

The shoulder vise won’t care if the legs are slanted.

[ken hatch]

I will say that is a clever and elegant design. Too bad about the round dog hole though :)


Chris,

I know it looks strange but I expect it will function about the same as square.

ken

[ken hatch]

Ken, I believe I have figured out a way for a tail vise. I’ve had the hard maple for nearly 2 years now to build the pictured bench modeled here. Health crap has curtailed my shop work at present. I still plan to build. My plan is to have both rear legs splayed. The left front angled with a leg vise. The right front leg vertical. The leg tenons will be secured the regular way and the vertical leg will be secured with folding wedges through the tenon from the front and rear.
Jim
PS sorry about the photos. Loosing my touch. I like tail vises. Had one for years. Sold the bench in a move. Been bemoaning that decision for many years.

James,

Photos are fine, I love the way you "model" your builds. The bench looks like it will work and looks build-able. Hope the health issues go away, so far I've been lucky mine have been either short term or I've been able to work around. Getting old sucks.

ken

[ken hatch]

Will has had that vise out for some time now. There was a post on the old WKTools site that spec'ed out the parts if you want to build your own.

Steve,

It could be I just want to build a new bench and the wagon vise is a good excuse :p. I remember looking at his install a few years ago and it didn't blow my skirt, not sure the difference.

ken

[Robert Hazelwood]

I think you'll like the wagon vise. I have the $$$ benchrafted one, but never regretted it. I doubt I go a single shop session without using it for something. I'd hate to always be screwing around with battens, etc. Comes in handy for attaching fixtures and doing handheld power tool work as well.

[ken hatch]

I think you'll like the wagon vise. I have the $$$ benchrafted one, but never regretted it. I doubt I go a single shop session without using it for something. I'd hate to always be screwing around with battens, etc. Comes in handy for attaching fixtures and doing handheld power tool work as well.

Robert,

We will see, I had the BC wagon on one of my Roubo benches and never used it. I know different strokes for different folks and all that rot. I work better most of the time with lose boards and stops and battens but this old dog can still hunt and still learn, maybe :p.

ken

[David Eisenhauer]

Ken I have a thin (les than a 1/4" thick) end stop plugged into some holes in one end of one of my Ruobo slabs that works well for the quick-slick-and flip work on final smoothing and/or thickness tweaking on something. My BC wagon vise on the other slab is handier for initial jack/try work that does not require so much turning over, flipping around and close sighting work. It is good for taking rough stock down when you are working the piece over fairly vigorously with the plane and don't want the piece to move around. It works well for narrow/long edge jointing work that is too narrow for use in the leg vise.

[ken hatch]

Ken I have a thin (les than a 1/4" thick) end stop plugged into some holes in one end of one of my Ruobo slabs that works well for the quick-slick-and flip work on final smoothing and/or thickness tweaking on something. My BC wagon vise on the other slab is handier for initial jack/try work that does not require so much turning over, flipping around and close sighting work. It is good for taking rough stock down when you are working the piece over fairly vigorously with the plane and don't want the piece to move around. It works well for narrow/long edge jointing work that is too narrow for use in the leg vise.

David,

There usually are not many times I feel a need to stick a work piece down but when I do, I use a LV "Wonder Dog", it works well. We will see if this old dog can learn new tricks :). Whatever, I will enjoy building a new bench. The big decisions are going to be woods used and size of the slab. I'm leaning towards a 7' to 8' slab and maybe a White Oak slab but probably will end up using Beech. It is hard to beat Poplar for the base but I'm open to one of the Oaks.

ken

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

I'd like to not have a vise, but making chairs that is a hard thing to contemplate with seriousness.

I'm actually very happy with the LN tail vise, works well and doesn't droop. I've put it through the paces for something like 8 years now.

Whenever I have a spare moment and material (hah) I plan to replace my bench with something. I was thinking roubo for a time, but I like the idea of the Moravian more still. More efficient in terms of material use, given that the legs are splayed and it is 'knock down' basically it amounts to a planing beam up on saw horses.

[Jim Koepke]

The shoulder vise won’t care if the legs are slanted.

The reasons for a shoulder vise escape me. Of course everyone is working different projects and a shoulder vise may be the cat's pajamas for some projects.

My skepticism is from occasionally needing to edge join longer pieces:

419463

A shoulder vise does not allow for this kind of work. In my case, the front vise is often removed for other work. A shoulder vise would have been in the way for some of my projects. Same with a wagon vise being difficult to remove when one wants a clear end on the tail to clamp their work in a different manner.

419464

Sometimes the simple solutions are the most versatile.

jtk

[William Fretwell]

The shoulder vise is perfect for edge joints, a longer bench helps of course. Shoulder vise uses: Dovetails, vertical board clamping, edge jointing, tenons, ripping, scroll saw work, drilling holes, holding jigs, some saw sharpening, holding deep objects, planing the top of a small box, small even pressure glue up’s, holding tapering objects, can’t imagine why anyone would want one :rolleyes:

[Andrew Seemann]

The reasons for a shoulder vise escape me. Of course everyone is working different projects and a shoulder vise may be the cat's pajamas for some projects.

My skepticism is from occasionally needing to edge join longer pieces:

419463

A shoulder vise does not allow for this kind of work.

Actually, edge jointing is easier with a shoulder vise:)

Shorter boards use the board jack, and longer ones get supported on the far end by whatever is available. And speaking of height, you can easily adjust the board height on a shoulder vise to what is most comfortable. Plus there is no limit to the width or length of the board.

Though dovetailing is where the shoulder vise excels, I actually use mine the most for edge jointing long boards, since I have a crummy 6"jointer. That and clamping scrapers for sharpening.

419490419489

[Jim Koepke]

William, Andrew, thanks for sharing your reasons for liking the shoulder vise. To me it seems like something that would always catch my hip in a crowded shop.

jtk

[ken hatch]

William, Andrew, thanks for sharing your reasons for liking the shoulder vise. To me it seems like something that would always catch my hip in a crowded shop.

jtk


Jim,

Same here, I'm happy for you guys having found something that works for you. It is not an easy thing with work benches but a shoulder vise would never work in my shop.

ken

[ken hatch]

I'd like to not have a vise, but making chairs that is a hard thing to contemplate with seriousness.

I'm actually very happy with the LN tail vise, works well and doesn't droop. I've put it through the paces for something like 8 years now.

Whenever I have a spare moment and material (hah) I plan to replace my bench with something. I was thinking roubo for a time, but I like the idea of the Moravian more still. More efficient in terms of material use, given that the legs are splayed and it is 'knock down' basically it amounts to a planing beam up on saw horses.

Brian,

Go for it, there is no down side except maybe installing the LN tail vise. I think it would work but I'd have to do some measurements to confirm the vise, leg, floor, overhang relationship would work.

ken

[William Fretwell]

A round dog is almost never as wide as an oblong or square dog. The face cut into it has limited depth and weakens the top of the dog. Round dog holes are usually drilled perpendicular, so they can’t toe in. This is not such a big deal as the holding face is so limited it can’t get high enough to apply pressure to the top of your work anyway.

Until you have used real, oblong, toed in dogs that can be raised substantially to hold your work down, you can continue to believe “ it will function about the same as square”.

[ken hatch]

A round dog is almost never as wide as an oblong or square dog. The face cut into it has limited depth and weakens the top of the dog. Round dog holes are usually drilled perpendicular, so they can’t toe in. This is not such a big deal as the holding face is so limited it can’t get high enough to apply pressure to the top of your work anyway.

Until you have used real, oblong, toed in dogs that can be raised substantially to hold your work down, you can continue to believe “ it will function about the same as square”.

William,

I call bull, I have built and used several benches with square dogs. I have used both and the only advantage to square dogs is the "hoot" factor. The job of end vises is not brute force holding of work, instead the least pressure that works is better and I've never found a case where a round dog wouldn't work to apply necessary pressure to hold the work. Of course most folks have different ways of working and what works for thee may not work for me but for me the simplest way is usually the best way.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian,

Go for it, there is no down side except maybe installing the LN tail vise. I think it would work but I'd have to do some measurements to confirm the vise, leg, floor, overhang relationship would work.

ken

Thanks, Ken!

[William Fretwell]

Ken I agree simple is often the most productive. I also have used several benches. The toeing in ability of angled dogs (say 3 degrees) enables you to hold narrow work without the tendency for it to lift off the bench. Yes you can use less pressure to stop the lifting and sometimes the holding is not enough. I do notice the improvement with toed in dogs. They are a lot more work to make and must be done when you make the bench.
After you have done simple some like to push it to the next level. There are all sorts of work arounds for all sorts of problems that let you get it done, often they are awkward and time consuming but they work.
When you build something that lets you give up awkward and time consuming the best way I can explain it is you feel like you are cheating!

[Jim Koepke]

The toeing in ability of angled dogs (say 3 degrees) enables you to hold narrow work without the tendency for it to lift off the bench. Yes you can use less pressure to stop the lifting and sometimes the holding is not enough. I do notice the improvement with toed in dogs.

For every problem there is a solution. My bench is factory made so the dog holes are drilled at 90º. The solution for me was to toe in the top of the dogs:

419605

They do well at holding thin stock:

419606

This also demonstrates how the 'weakness of vise racking' can be used to advantage by use of an 'anti-rack spacer stack' as a regulator on the vise pressure.

jtk

[ken hatch]

For every problem there is a solution. My bench is factory made so the dog holes are drilled at 90º. The solution for me was to toe in the top of the dogs:

419605

They do well at holding thin stock:

419606

This also demonstrates how the 'weakness of vise racking' can be used to advantage by use of an 'anti-rack spacer stack' as a regulator on the vise pressure.

jtk

Jim,

Thanks, my point exactly. There is nothing inherently superior with square dogs and at least one reason they are inferior. When I see a bench with square dogs my first thought is the "Far Side" cartoon of the two time traveling cave men riding a flying log and "Hooting" at the modern world. A photo of my bench with square dogs is the title photo of my blog, that was the last bench I built with square dogs. I guess I should change the photo:).

ken

[William Fretwell]

It's just a dog eat dog world out there! :) Sorry couldn't resist......

[Jim Koepke]

It's just a dog eat dog world out there! :) Sorry couldn't resist......

My bench dog hole layout has evolved over time. Some are placed between the two rows to apply side pressure to pieces being face planed. A few along the length to accommodate different widths works well. There are also some set to hold other bench top aids.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

Every time I see this string, I remember that I was attached to DE 252, the Howard D Crow. I remember those days fondly.
I saw new atomic sub Nautilus on the surface throwing a rooster tail 40 to 50 feet in the air. She was much faster than our WWII vessel.

[ken hatch]

Every time I see this string, I remember that I was attached to DE 252, the Howard D Crow. I remember those days fondly.
I saw new atomic sub Nautilus on the surface throwing a rooster tail 40 to 50 feet in the air. She was much faster than our WWII vessel.


Lowell,

Interesting history with lots of Texas connections.

ken