Total Newbie trying to figure my base requirements.

[ChrisA Edwards]

So while at Woodcraft yesterday, I signed up for their 'Intro to CNC' class, but that's not until Dec 5th, so I'm itching for more info.

I have space for a 48x96 machine on the upper floor of my external garage, but realistically, probably don't have the budget or the need for such a beast.

For the actual CNC machine, my budget is around $2500, but that also needs to cover all the software for design as well as cutting. Right now I'm leaning towards an X-Carve from Inventables, but can easily be persuaded if there is something better. I also have the option of selling a couple of motorcycles that would increase my budget significantly ($7k-$10K).

Currently, my main computer is a 2015 15" MacBook Pro. I also have a retired 2010 MacBook Pro laptop which, if possible, would like to use to drive the cutting procedure. I have a bunch of old Windows PC's which I might be able to recommission, but they are at least 8 years old. I do have a 21" Dell monitor, not sure if i could use this with my MacBook, but I wouldn't be too averse to buying a new monitor.

This is going to be completely hobbyist at this time. This is just a next step in a progression of retirement hobbies.

Thanks you for you thoughts and suggestions.

[bobby milam]

Before you buy you need to learn more about them. There are some free software that you can use but ou will find that many of us use Vectric software which vcarve pro is around $700 alone and bump that to $2000 if you wanted Aspire to do 3D. Besides the physical restrictions on the bed dimensions for something like the X-carve look at the Z axis. It is only like 2 1/2". I'm not sure if they included 3/4" MDF in that 2 1/2" or not but you can see that once you start putting material on it, you will run out of room fast depending on the bit length. It also uses a small palm router. They get the job done but they have limitations that you have to be aware of. I'd rather have a full size router or better yet a spindle on a machine.

Computers....don't worry about that until you select a machine to see what it needs. Some don't require to be connected to a computer to operate and some do. If they do, they normally don't require much of a computer to run them but it is preferred to use a desktop over a laptop usually.

Rocklers and Woodcraft are good places to look at some machines but IMO they are much more expensive there than what you can find better machines elsewhere. I would also consider a good used machine. Many people buy these entry level machines and then find that they should have bought a bigger or better machine and will sell their old machines to buy a new one.

If it were me, I'd consider what the motorcycles mean to me and how much are they used. If you were really willing to one or more up and increase your budget you would find it gets interesting in your choices. Remember, the cost of the machine is just the start. You will also need a good table in many cases, bits, collets, dust boot, dust collector, etc. I made the mistake of buying a small machine from Rockler and it worked but had a lot of limitations to it. I sold it and then bought a heavy steel 4X8 machine for just a couple of thousand more than the tiny plastic one and now love it. It is a nice hobby especially if you are retired and have more time to use it.

Check out your local library. I recently found that mine has a tiny CNC router, a 3D printer and other things that I could go in and use for free with just a library card.

[Jim Becker]

I agree that you probably need to spend some more time learning. Here are a couple of thoughts, however, based on your OP...

For second floor, you're pretty much going to need to go with a modular or "build your own from extrusions" product if you go larger than a desktop machine. Why? Getting it in there. A typical 4x8 machine with a welded base is going to weigh in the neighborhood of 2000-3000 lbs, depending on the manufacturer and they don't come apart. (other than maybe removing the gantry if you are really brave) Getting a machine like that into a second floor space would require a crane, knowledgable riggers and a very large opening in the wall. And a good floor structure. Your budget is going to be a huge constraint on acquiring something that can handle full sheets like you mention, too, even with a "build your own" scenario.

You can do design work on your MacOS machines, either natively with applications like Fusion360, or via virtualized Windows for applications like those from Vectric. You are going to be hard pressed to be able to use a MacOS machine for CNC control, however. I do my design work on my Macs, but "most" CNC control systems used in the small to mid-sized machine world utilize and require Windows. The specifications for that computer are generally modest at least. For design work, a large monitor with high resolution is a huge benefit for sure. I use a 27" here in my office with 2550x1440 resolution, but 4K is also worthy. I use a 25" monitor with the same resolution in the shop on my CNC control computer because I often need to make adjustments to a design or toolpaths and it's just plain easier to do that with that setup. The original 19" 1080 monitor really was inadequate other than for the control software.

I agree with Bobby that many of the machines sold in the woodworking retailers are, um...well...not well loved. There are many other more worthy choices. In fact, if you need to get your feet wet with something modest "now", consider the Shapeoko XXL. It's in your budget, has about a 30"x30" capacity and can do real work, despite being a lower cost kit. When (not if... :D ) you decide you want to move larger, you will then have the experience to ascertain what you really need to do the kind of work you want to do. I like the concept of "buy your second CNC first", but that's just not always practical for many folks, especially for the hobbyist.

[John Lifer]

Search locally for used machine. There are some that pop up fairly regularly. I got a shapeoko last month, I had minor issue with a couple of parts and they shipped me replacements the next business day. No questions asked. Customer service was great and I'm not the only one who thinks it. Good forum run by company, and other forums also. Software is ok. Design software that is free is pretty rudimentary. You will need something better to design in my opinion. The company is working on a pro version of their software, will be about same as the entry vcarve software, (not pro). I'm not sold on it, will probably spring for vcarve.
I'm happy with the machine, it works as advertised and was not hard to put together.

[bobby milam]

John mentioned a users forum. It is a good idea to pick a machine brand that has a good active forum. There will be times that you have brand specific questions and can get quick help on their forums better than you can on a more generic forum such as this.

[Matt Schrum]

John mentioned a users forum. It is a good idea to pick a machine brand that has a good active forum. There will be times that you have brand specific questions and can get quick help on their forums better than you can on a more generic forum such as this.

+1 on this. I hardly knew a stepper motor from an endmill when I bought my ShapeOko (okay, maybe I wasn't that bad), and their forum was a huge help for setting it up, tuning the machine, learning how to use it, and seeing what common upgrades folks were doing as I got more familiar with the machine. That forum saved me hours of hair pulling.

[Kevin Jenness]

Linking to another forum is disallowed here, but google "camheads Buying a CNC? Do Your Homework!!" for a guide to what you should be thinking about.

Shopbot and Camaster both have active forums. Besides being invaluable to users of those specific makes there is a great deal of info on topics applicable to all machines.

[Carl Beckett]

Some good food for thought here. As a recommendation, I lean towards the used Shapeoko approach to get started (or something like it). lt should come close to fitting your budget, will allow you to do some things, and you can learn.

"Buy your second CNC first" : Doesnt work for me. Because, I have no idea what that second CNC is... and it is not until I do some things do I have a better grasp on what I want to do (I tend to learn by doing). So I take just the opposite approach: buy something to get started with as a complete system, and learn. But buy something that resells easily. Would take this approach before selling any motorcycles... (although I sold mine to make room for woodworking stuff, so who am I to talk)

I have a desktop CNC recently. It is not at all obvious to me that I would want a 4'x8' machine even if I had the space for it. (I may... but am not convinced at this time - the projects I have planned for it all fit on the smaller footprint no problem).

I did look at build your own approach, and also the import from china approach. Viable. But right at this time I did not want building the machine to be the hobby, wanted to get some projects done.

Also as a beginner a good support forum and tech support was something I put priority on and agree with that advice, it was helpful to me even getting the first piece out of the machine. Software choices mean $ impact. Whether you want to do soft metals, or a 4th axis even. $$ invested vary dramatically depending on some of these answers.

Good luck and have fun!

[Ben Grefe]

Carl, I think by ‘build the CNC’ approach what is really meant is a modular CNC, similar to an Avid CNC setup (formerly known as Router Parts CNC).

I’d also checkout full machine dimensions and weights - these things are BIG. I initially was going down a 48x96 machine before I realized that a machine that size 1) weighs 2000+ lbs (for a welded unit), 2) takes up 6ft x 10ft of floor space and 3) realistically needs 8ft x 15ft of floor space so you can walk around it, put material on the table and secure your hold downs.

I’ve been in the market for a CNC for almost a year now (decided to buy something else this summer, so I’m probably looking at next year now). There’s a HUGE quality difference and price range in the units. On top of that, it’s somewhat the Wild West when you start looking at Chinese made ‘no name’ units. Sure they might use the same parts, but you better have experience in import/export process and be your own tech support.

The smaller units don’t have the rigidity that many woodworkers really want (nor the work surface size). The medium units might, but then they start getting heavy.... and pricey. I think for a 48x96 unit you’re probably looking at $10,000 as your starting point. Maybe 6-7k for a 48x48. Looking for a more ‘professional’ quality unit with support in either size really starts at 15k and quickly goes into the 30 or 40k range. Obviously this isn’t aimed at hobbyist, but it’s just to point out there’s a massive price range.

[Tom Dixon]

If you want to go the Chinese CNC machine route Grizzly just added a 600mmX900mm Chinese made machine to their line up. It's price at 5K is about double what you could buy one through AliExpress from Blue Elephant or AccTek but you would be assured support. I've been shopping Chinese machines casually for a while. I'll get more serious next year. One suggestion for you is to Google "Chinese CNC reviews". There is a lot of info out there from bad to great. Take your time. For myself I'm considering a 900mmX1200MM as a hobby machine for my shop. This one has caught my eye: AccTek 9012 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32840759060.html?spm=a2g0s.8937460.0.0.53d32e0erA8 Kgk) It's specs are close to what I want except for the spindle size.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I've joined the Camheads forum and now am starting to read many of the threads, obviously this leans towards the Camaster machines, which would require the sacrifice of a Ducati.

I'm not aware of other brands, probably in the $6K-$12K range.

I can see this will probably be one of the longest research and info gathering process I'm about to undertake.

Keep the info and suggestions coming, thanks.

[Jim Becker]

There are plenty of machines in the $6-12K US range, but they are not going to be "four-by-eights" in many cases. That includes the heavier brands like Camaster, ShopSabre and ShopBot as well as companies like Axiom plus the "build your own" machines. And thanks for joining Camheads. Even if you choose to go another direction, there's a lot of good people and a lot to learn.

[bobby milam]

If you want to go the Chinese CNC machine route Grizzly just added a 600mmX900mm Chinese made machine to their line up. It's price at 5K is about double what you could buy one through AliExpress from Blue Elephant or AccTek but you would be assured support. I've been shopping Chinese machines casually for a while. I'll get more serious next year. One suggestion for you is to Google "Chinese CNC reviews". There is a lot of info out there from bad to great. Take your time. For myself I'm considering a 900mmX1200MM as a hobby machine for my shop. This one has caught my eye: AccTek 9012 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32840759060.html?spm=a2g0s.8937460.0.0.53d32e0erA8 Kgk) It's specs are close to what I want except for the spindle size.

Tom, the spindle size is not an issue. You can buy a Chinese spindle and VFD fairly cheaply if that one wasn't enough for you. If you are looking at Acctek, I'd suggest going thru Acctek USA. They already have contacts in China with the company and distribute in the US for them so they can order a machine how you'd like it. I am pretty sure they could order that machine and have the spindle and VFD changed for a different size spindle at the factory. I've had mine for a little over a year and am glad that I made the purchase.

[David Buchhauser]

One of my machines is the CNC Router Parts (now Avid CNC) Pro4848 with 3hp spindle. This is a 48 x 48 machine (actual travel is 49.5" x 49.5"). I bought this earlier in the year. The beauty of this machine is that it is easily expandable to 48 x 96 (or longer). My cost was $9848.00 plus shipping. It would be another $1100 to get the 48 x 96 version. So I guess this is pushing the $12k that Jim mentioned. Here's Frank Howarth showing how easy it is to add an additional 4 feet to the CNC Router Parts table.
David

https://youtu.be/ygND7TFziF8

420246
(https://youtu.be/ygND7TFziF8)

[Tom Dixon]

Tom, the spindle size is not an issue. You can buy a Chinese spindle and VFD fairly cheaply if that one wasn't enough for you. If you are looking at Acctek, I'd suggest going thru Acctek USA. They already have contacts in China with the company and distribute in the US for them so they can order a machine how you'd like it. I am pretty sure they could order that machine and have the spindle and VFD changed for a different size spindle at the factory. I've had mine for a little over a year and am glad that I made the purchase.

Thanks for the tip on contacting AccTek USA Bobby. I was planning to get a quote with a 3KW water cooled spindle and a bigger VFD but it is going to have to wait until at least Q2 2020. I just purchase a oscillating belt sander which I pick up tomorrow so I'm pretty tapped out for 2019. I'm glad to hear you are pleased with your AccTek CNC. What are the specs on the machine you purchased?

[bobby milam]

I sent you a PM with some info on my machine.

[Biff Phillips]

I would not recommend a water cooled spindle, although they are functional.
An air cooled spindle is much better.
I have used both.

An air cooled one typically weighs less (in my case, the difference was about 20 lbs). Less weight on the gantry is good. In a watercooled one, you have to rig up something to pump coolant through it.. In my case, I got a pump system similiar to what they use for water cooling CPUs. It is an added expense, plus I had to rig something to put it on top of the carriage that slides on the gantry (not too hard since my CNC was DIY, but still a hassle. Other people have the pump in a bucket, pump water through the spindle and drain back into the bucket, but that seems a like a pain.. imagine your router moving around, you have to worry about the hoses moving along with it and making sure they don't catch hold of something or kink, etc..

Air cooled is way better. My air cooled chineese spindle had a rectangular body on it, with holes already threaded to attach to the Z slide. This is fantastic, as you don't have to buy a spindle mount and also it keeps the spindle closer to the gantry, which is also desirable.. However the downside is that you have to drill holes into the plate that normally holds the spindle mount..

Good luck, hope what I posted makes sense..

[David Buchhauser]

I would not recommend a water cooled spindle, although they are functional.
An air cooled spindle is much better.
I have used both.

Hi Biff,

I have a 2.2 KW (3HP) air cooled spindle on one machine and a 3 KW water cooled ATC spindle on another machine. In my case, the benefit of the water cooled ATC spindle is the automatic tool change feature. This allows for much faster tool changes than with the air cooled spindle, and if implemented - fully automatic tool changes under program control. This feature eliminates the need for using wrenches to remove and replace the tool or tool/collet assembly, and then setting the tool height offset value every time a different tool is required as part of the program. The water lines, air lines, and tool holder release control wires are all run in the same cable tracks as the other cables for the motors, proximity sensors, and spindle power cable.

There are some things I like better about the air cooled setup, and others that I more prefer with the water cooled setup. At least in my case, I do not believe that "air cooled is way better".

David

[bobby milam]

There are trade offs between water and air cooled. Air cooled are generally more expensive, water cooled you have to use water. My machine came setup with water cooled and hoses are run thru the tracks so movement is not an issue. I use a 5 gal bucket with a lid and a pond pump. Once setup it really isn't an issue.
Just like David, I have upgraded to an ATC spindle so cost of water cooled and air cooled came into play. Plus if I ran an air cooled With the ATC I would have to purchase a larger air compressor to have the air flow to cool the lowest bearings so that's another expense.

These spindles are basically throw away spindles so i don't mind saving money. There is the issue of weight depending on your machine and what it can handle. The weight isn't an issue for mine.

[Jim Becker]

Just to be clear for folks new to this, air cooled or water cooled is not connected to any automatic tool change feature. Both spindle types are used with ATCs. It just so happens that a previous poster has two machines; one with an ATC and one without an ATC. It's just coincidental that the ATC machine has a water cooled spindle. ATCs are really nice to have, but they are not an inexpensive option...extra hardware, more expensive spindle because of the need to support the quick change inserts, often higher licensing fees for the CNC control software (depending on which software a machine uses), etc. Some of us have what I call the "poor man's ATC"...which is change the tool with your hands but the machine auto-measures it, or in some cases, a machine with multiple motors on the gantry, such as Camaster's X3 system with three. Most machines with ATCs are larger setups where "time is money". There is growing interest in ATCs for smaller machines, however. Gary Campbell has done a few really nice, small bed machines with ATCs and kick-butt performance for his clients.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Thanks, as the OP, this is all very educational, keep it coming.

I've been looking at the Axiom Pro series, if I move ahead with actually buying a machine, I like the flexibility of having a 4th axis capability as well as a laser engraver.

Again, my desire to own one of these is purely from a hobbyist standpoint.

[David Buchhauser]

Just to be clear for folks new to this, air cooled or water cooled is not connected to any automatic tool change feature. Both spindle types are used with ATCs. It just so happens that a previous poster has two machines; one with an ATC and one without an ATC. It's just coincidental that the ATC machine has a water cooled spindle.

Yes Jim - you are correct that the ATC feature is available on both air cooled and water cooled spindles. The reason I went with the water cooled ATC spindle was that I could not find an equivalent air cooled ATC spindle that would meet my criteria with respect to weight and cost. At the time, the smallest air cooled ATC spindle I could find was rated at around 5 KW and weighed around 60 lbs. I don't need that much power and 60 lbs. is probably way too heavy for my particular machine, particularly for rapid acceleration/deceleration moves. The 3 KW water cooled ATC spindle I selected weighs around 30 lbs., is more compact, and was much more reasonably priced. My only reservation was the narrower spindle speed range of 12000 to 18000 rpm compared to the spindle speed range on my 2.2 KW air cooled unit of 8000 to 24000 rpm. Since this particular machine is set up for machining aluminum with coolant (no wood routing) I would have appreciated having those lower speeds (8000-12000) for my application.


ATCs are really nice to have, but they are not an inexpensive option...extra hardware, more expensive spindle because of the need to support the quick change inserts, often higher licensing fees for the CNC control software (depending on which software a machine uses), etc.

For my particular machine, the ATC upgrade cost was about $1200 over and above the equivalent non-ATC air cooled spindle on my other machine. This upgrade cost includes an assortment of NBT-30 tool holders, ER25 collets, coolant system, and spindle mount adapter. The CNC control software I am currently using (Centroid CNC12 and Mach3) both facilitate automatic tool change operation at no additional cost.

David

[David Buchhauser]

There are trade offs between water and air cooled. Air cooled are generally more expensive, water cooled you have to use water. My machine came setup with water cooled and hoses are run thru the tracks so movement is not an issue. I use a 5 gal bucket with a lid and a pond pump. Once setup it really isn't an issue.
Just like David, I have upgraded to an ATC spindle so cost of water cooled and air cooled came into play. Plus if I ran an air cooled With the ATC I would have to purchase a larger air compressor to have the air flow to cool the lowest bearings so that's another expense.

These spindles are basically throw away spindles so i don't mind saving money. There is the issue of weight depending on your machine and what it can handle. The weight isn't an issue for mine.

Hi Bobby,

I am curious why a larger air compressor would be required to run an air cooled spindle. My air cooled spindle has an integral electric cooling fan that forces fresh air thru the spindle. The other air cooled spindles I have looked at seem to also have an electric cooling fan. Have you seen any that use compressed air (as opposed to an electric fan) for the spindle cooling?

David

[bobby milam]

Not sure about all but many of the air cooled atc spindles use both. The electric fan but they also use air from the compressor to cool the lower ceramic bearings. It's something like 6-7 cfm around 35 psi I believe. It's enough that people with a60gal tank say it cycles the compressor every 15-30 minutes.

Yours isn't an ATC is it? That would be why different bearings I guess.

Im not an expert on air cooled spindles but when I was shopping for the ATC that it's what my research found. I would have preferred air cooled but not at their cost like you had found

[Biff Phillips]

It all depends.. I have a Chineese air cooled spindle. It is 3 phase, I can't remember the KW, but it has similar power and cost to the cheap water cooled spindles.. both were approximately 200-300.. plus the cost of the VFD if you don't have 3 phase. I am just a hobbiest, cutting wood only.

My air cooled spindle is purely fan cooled , no compressed air needed. Will it last as long as a water cooled one? I don't know, but I am just a hobbyist, It has lasted well over 5 years now, so I am happy.. A cnc will run a router/spindle harder than using a router by hand.. lots of stuff can take hours to cut.. So no matter which way you go, you have to realize they will eventually need replaced.
Again, I am a hobbyist. I have no need for an automatic tool changer.. I just don't do the volume to justify it.. I am doing this for fun, a few minutes to change the bit is no big deal for me.

I guess I should have said FOR THE WOODWORKING HOBBYIST, an air cooled spindle is better. The OP said his budget was 2500, he's not going to get a CNC with an ATC for that price.

[Jim Becker]

Biff, almost all of these spindles, air cooled or water cooled, are three phase which is needed for the variable speed and is also better suited to the task. Traditional routers used by some machines are certainly an exception, but any speed control is manual and done differently than with a spindle. The air requirement isn't necessary for a non ATC spindle other than for a counter-balance on the Z-axis to take load off the steeper or servo from the weight of the spindle. And that's just fixed air pressure...no real "usage". (My machine is so equipped) ATCs, however use air for the quick change mechanism clamping and some use additional air to supplement cooling as has been noted and there is some level of CFM required to support that, not just a particular air pressure as with a counter-balance.

[ChrisA Edwards]

just and update on y original post, I have now decided that if I am going to buy a CNC machine, it will be in the $6K to $12K range, otherwise I won't bother. I'm going with the "Buy your second machine first" philosophy.

[Jim Becker]

Chris, that budget will open options up to you considerably.

I kinda, sorta did that "second machine first" thing myself after starting out thinking Shapeoko and then Axiom and then small Camaster and then bigger Camaster and then bigger Camaster. Of course, I shoulda bought the next bigger Camaster in hindsight. LOL (8' would have been nice in a few cases, but honestly, I'm doing just fine with 4x4)

[David Buchhauser]

Biff, almost all of these spindles, air cooled or water cooled, are three phase which is needed for the variable speed and is also better suited to the task.

Hi Biff,
This does not mean that you need to have 3 phase power lines running into your shop to use one of these spindles. In general, a VFD (variable frequency drive) is used to convert your existing 240Vac single phase power to the 3 phase power required by the spindle. In addition, the VFD allows for adjustment of the output frequency (typically under software control) to facilitate the variable speed operation of the spindle.
David

[Jim Becker]

Thanks, David...I got distracted and didn't fill in the rest of that. My bad...

[Biff Phillips]

Biff, almost all of these spindles, air cooled or water cooled, are three phase which is needed for the variable speed and is also better suited to the task. Traditional routers used by some machines are certainly an exception, but any speed control is manual and done differently than with a spindle. The air requirement isn't necessary for a non ATC spindle other than for a counter-balance on the Z-axis to take load off the steeper or servo from the weight of the spindle. And that's just fixed air pressure...no real "usage". (My machine is so equipped) ATCs, however use air for the quick change mechanism clamping and some use additional air to supplement cooling as has been noted and there is some level of CFM required to support that, not just a particular air pressure as with a counter-balance.

Yea, my spindle in 3 phase as well. That is an additional cost to consider for sure. Plus a lot of extra time to set up the VFD to the correct settings. The main reason I upgraded from a router to a spindle was because I was able to get a lifetime supply of compression bits, but they were "left handed" so I needed to buy a spindle to run them in reverse. If they were still available, I would share the source, but this was years ago. Anyhow, I know this does not apply to most people's situation.

I am lucky that I don't need a counter balance on my Z.. Or if I do need one, it hasn't bitten me yet. But thanks for explaining that, I had no idea what the compressed air was for.

My water cooled spindle worked fine. I am not criticizing anyone for going that way. I should have said.. at the time, given my options, air cooled was much lighter and easier to set up.. your situation might be different.

[Biff Phillips]

just and update on y original post, I have now decided that if I am going to buy a CNC machine, it will be in the $6K to $12K range, otherwise I won't bother. I'm going with the "Buy your second machine first" philosophy.

Nice, you will not regret that decision, I am sure.
I saw in another post that you wanted to have the option for rotary.
I have had a lot of fun with my rotary axis. If you ever get into that, you might
want to check out the Deskproto software. Very inexpensive for a hobbyist (under $300), and it really excells at 4th axis work, and has other features as well.

[bobby milam]

It doesn';t matter if you go air or water cooled but I would definitely go with a spindle over a router. The costs for Chinese spindles has dropped so low it just makes sense. You'll need 240A service to use one but they are so much quieter, smoother and so much more powerful. I have used both and will never go back to a router again. Sometimes if I have a friend over and making something for him, I'll run it without the dustcollector and the spindle noise will be so low that we can have a conversation while it is cutting without having to raise our voices and trying to talk over the machine.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, aside from all the functional advantages that come with a spindle, the huge reduction in noise is amazing. Any loud sound is from the tooling engaging the material rather than being combined by a screaming router motor. When I cut HDU (sign foam) or plastics the fan on the spindle is "louder" than the tooling cutting, even for heavy bites. When I'm using a small diameter tool on wood, the cutting is only slightly more noisy and normal conversation can happen near the machine. Only when a .25" or larger cutter starts taking a bite out of solid wood or sheet goods do I need to don my hearing protection. On the other hand, if I turn on the router in my router table, I better have the hearing protection on first even if the thing is just sitting there idling. :)

Spindles...I'm a fan!