Workbench Stretcher Height

[Joshua Lucas]

I'm in the early stages of building a Moravian/Roubo hybrid workbench. It has the angled legs of a Moravian bench but like a Roubo it's chunky and doesn't knock down. It will have an angled leg vise in the front position.

What I'm wondering is whether there's any reason not to put all the stretchers all the way at the bottom of the legs, resting on the floor.

Pros:
- Maximizes storage space under the bench (leaving room for holdfasts, of course).
- Allows leg vise parallel guide to be mounted as low as possible for greater clamping pressure. I'm thinking of using Will Myers' ratcheting parallel guide (https://eclecticmechanicals.com/2018/10/28/ratcheting-parallel-guide/), so no bending over necessary.
- No need to sweep under the bench if there's a shelf or cabinet on top of the stretchers.

Possible Cons:
- Could get in the way of where I want to put my feet when working at the bench.
- Could be a pain to clean under if stuff does manage to get under it.
- Thought of another one: Wouldn't be able to get a car jack under it to aid moving it around! This sounds funny but I'm a bit concerned about being able to move a 400 lb bench.

[Scott Winners]

My current is 4" off the floor, too high to hook my toes under. I read somewhere having the bottom face of the stretcher about three inches off the floor lets you hook your toes under it when planing, I will try that next.

[ken hatch]

I'm in the early stages of building a Moravian/Roubo hybrid workbench. It has the angled legs of a Moravian bench but like a Roubo it's chunky and doesn't knock down. It will have an angled leg vise in the front position.

What I'm wondering is whether there's any reason not to put all the stretchers all the way at the bottom of the legs, resting on the floor.

Pros:
- Maximizes storage space under the bench (leaving room for holdfasts, of course).
- Allows leg vise parallel guide to be mounted as low as possible for greater clamping pressure. I'm thinking of using Will Myers' ratcheting parallel guide (https://eclecticmechanicals.com/2018/10/28/ratcheting-parallel-guide/), so no bending over necessary.
- No need to sweep under the bench if there's a shelf or cabinet on top of the stretchers.

Possible Cons:
- Could get in the way of where I want to put my feet when working at the bench.
- Could be a pain to clean under if stuff does manage to get under it.
- Thought of another one: Wouldn't be able to get a car jack under it to aid moving it around! This sounds funny but I'm a bit concerned about being able to move a 400 lb bench.

Trust me you will.
It will drive you to barking at the moon.

Question: Why not knock down? You will not gain strength or stability with glue or even pegs. Because of design when you put weight on the bench it locks down tighter. When it comes time to move the bench, and it will, you will be thankful it is knock down. Just one other thing, I've built Moravian's with both Parallel guides and crisscross of the two the crisscross is less work to install, also less critical in fit, and works better.

ken

[ken hatch]

My current is 4" off the floor, too high to hook my toes under. I read somewhere having the bottom face of the stretcher about three inches off the floor lets you hook your toes under it when planing, I will try that next.

Scott,

Enlighten me, why would you want to hook your toes under the bench when planing? And if you do want to, how would you go about making it work for you?

ken

[David Eisenhauer]

Stretchers located at the floor would not allow for easy bench height shortening if desired. I can't prove it, but I tend to think that the floor level stretchers would bother my feet too. I'd leave room for the car jack if it was my bench. I don't know about hooking my toes under the stretchers while planning Scott, but have never needed to/tried it so who knows, may be a thing. Your bench Joshua, your toes, your stretchers.

[Tom Trees]

Scott,

Enlighten me, why would you want to hook your toes under the bench when planing? And if you do want to, how would you go about making it work for you?

ken

I'd never want that for planing, but find hooking your foot under the bench great for chiseling.
Another reason to have a stretcher off the ground is for a mobile base.
I will probably make a Carl Holmgren type of system from steel when I build mine. this needs only a single pedal and works easy for a 200kg tablesaw.
Having a stretcher so low kinda interferes with the Klausz design though.

If making a taller stretcher and having it set flush with the top, make sure its not going to touch your knee, as it is a right pain if planing wide boards.

Tom

[Joshua Lucas]

Question: Why not knock down? You will not gain strength or stability with glue or even pegs. Because of design when you put weight on the bench it locks down tighter. When it comes time to move the bench, and it will, you will be thankful it is knock down. Just one other thing, I've built Moravian's with both Parallel guides and crisscross of the two the crisscross is less work to install, also less critical in fit, and works better.

Ken, this design has been evolving for the better part of a year now, and you're not helping with my analysis paralysis! Both your points are very good and I'll have to give them some thought. I should probably just spring for the Crisscross but there's so many other tools I want for that money...

[ken hatch]

Ken, this design has been evolving for the better part of a year now, and you're not helping with my analysis paralysis! Both your points are very good and I'll have to give them some thought. I should probably just spring for the Crisscross but there's so many other tools I want for that money...

Joshua,

LOL, sorry about that. If you have the screw the 14" crisscross is pretty cheap but then I love to spend other people's money.

ken

[Mike Brady]

If the stretchers are at floor level, sweeping shavings will be an annoying task. For me a broom is a quick way to clean up around and under the bench. I personally see no reason to be touching the bench with your feet during any operation, unless you are perhaps seated (I sometimes will sit on my saw bench while marking out dovetails).

[Prashun Patel]

I prefer the stretcher high enough off the floor so it's easy to sweep under. My stretcher supports a single shelf that stores planes and other things I might reach often for. The higher the stretcher, the less stooping.

Beware of angled legs if you are doing a leg vise. I did it. While it's great for stability, if you ever wish to install a tail vise on the right side, it can be an issue.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Scott,

Enlighten me, why would you want to hook your toes under the bench when planing? And if you do want to, how would you go about making it work for you?

ken


It was never a design consideration, but I sometimes find myself doing this without thinking during really heavy hand planing. I think it can allow you to get a little more force on the plane.

[ken hatch]

It was never a design consideration, but I sometimes find myself doing this without thinking during really heavy hand planing. I think it can allow you to get a little more force on the plane.


Robert,

Please don't take this wrong, it is not meant as snark but if I need more force on the plane that just shoe traction I'm taking too heavy a cut and/or the cutter really needs sharpening. Whatever, and maybe because I'm almost as old as dirt I wouldn't last one pass under those conditions. Someone also mentioned using the rail with chisels, if you need more force than a chisel hammer or your body can supply something ain't right. BTW, even mortises are easier, faster and better made with finesse vs. brute force, taps vs.whacks. Of course as with everything wood YMMV.

ken

[Robert Hazelwood]

Taking full width shavings off a wide face with a try plane and a fresh iron, even a 0.002 shaving takes a lot of force. For this kind of work I'm usually trying to work at maybe 80% of the max I can push without stalling. Maybe it's more about balance than getting extra force? I dunno, like I said I just found myself doing it without thinking. I want to say it happens more when I am having to reach over a wide board to plane the far end. Also I'm not really curling my feet, more just jamming a foot under the stretcher.

I'd be fine if the stretcher didn't allow that, it's more of a curiosity for me than anything that someone else mentioned this. Probably the bigger takeaway is that your feet naturally want to be under the front edge of the work bench sometimes, so the lower stretcher should accommodate that.

[steven c newman]

^+1......set the stretcher height to just clear the top of the broom used. Also makes things easier....when you drop a small part on the floor....they always seem to roll under the bench..DAMHIKT...and, they usually stop right in the middle, or almost to the back ( if the bench sits against a wall..)

[Jim Koepke]

My preference is for enough room under the stretcher to keep a step stool or a box or two to act like floor mounted drawers.

Everyone works differently. We all have our own preferences.

For me a stretcher at the bottom would be constantly getting kicked by my big clumsy feet. If much of my work was making doors or panels a stretcher might be useful at the bottom to hold large work with a clamp or two.

There is no right or wrong in the location of a stretcher, only purpose. Sometimes the purpose is as simple as, "it works for me."

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

I would make the stretcher higher enough for a push broom to reach underneath. Much like a kitchen "toe kick" that's high enough that I can get close to the bench (around 4" off the floor).

Regarding rapid leg vise design - check this out:

https://youtu.be/aI0sZodYJrI

[Patrick Walsh]

With the stretcher right at floor height it’s sure gonna be a pita to keep the bench stable if the floor is not perfectly flat. Shims will work fine but you know four points of contact is a heck of a lot easier to get sitting stable lever and solid.

I can’t imagine no toe kick. I’m a cabinet maker by trade and share a floor with another shop in a old mill building. That shop made a whole kitchen with no toe kick. I dont know the story on the build but I can’t imagine a whole kitchen with no toe kick. I’d loose my mind bumping my toes.

[Anuj Prateek]

Stretchers on my bench are 5" off floor. I built my bench relatively high at 34". Pinky test puts it at 30-31".

I figured if need be, I will cut the legs an inch or two if I feel it high - while leaving room for sweeping and space for my foot to go. This allowed enough space above stretcher to build and install a 12" high cabinet to store planes and other tools, while leaving decent space above the cabinet.

tl;dr;
I would keep a minimum of 3" space below stretcher for cleaning and foot to go.



Side note:
I just checked and I cannot take more than a inch off legs now due to the height at which I installed criss cross leg vise. So be careful around leg vise placement.

[Scott Winners]

I found the reference I had alluded to earlier. It is Chris Schwarz's _The workbench design book_ (c 2010).

Only reviewer's of the book are allowed to quote brief passages without written permission. I will take this opportunity to state emphatically that Chris' book is, I think, a must have for anyone planning to build their own workbench. This $25 book is way more helpful than a $20 face vise from the home store.


while flattening panels for a blanket chest {cross face grain with a scrub plane} I noticed I had my left foot wedged under the stretcher and used that foot to help pull my body back on the return stroke

He says his stretchers are five inches off the floor. I don't know where I came up with three inches previously. I am going to fool with this some over the next few months by nailing scrap to the underside of my front stretcher and reply back here. It's on pages 247 and 248 in Chris' book.

[Richard Line]

One other reason to not put the stretchers at the bottom is that a high spot in the floor could keep you from leveling the bench and allow the bench to rock on that high spot.

I haven't use the stretchers to help with planning, yet, but I find I often have my toes somewhat under the bench.

[Tom Vanzant]

Scott, somewhere too I picked up on 3” for stretchers. My push-broom doesn’t fit, and I have to be careful when wearing my OSHA-non-approved sandals. 5” for my next bench. What that bench will be is TBD. Roubo, Nicholson, and Moravian benches have all had their day, but the simple Benchcrafted Classic is calling the loudest, at least today.

[Scott Winners]

Scott, somewhere too I picked up on 3” for stretchers. My push-broom doesn’t fit, and I have to be careful when wearing my OSHA-non-approved sandals. 5” for my next bench. What that bench will be is TBD. Roubo, Nicholson, and Moravian benches have all had their day, but the simple Benchcrafted Classic is calling the loudest, at least today.

I found it in the same reference as above, on page 43 he calls for three inches. I bet it depends on your foot size and how heavy a boot you wear, but he does mention on pp43 for planing crossgrain again. I have a table for my belt/ disc sander going together now with layout marks to get the stretcher bottoms three inches off the floor.

FWIW I can get a broom under my 4" off the floor stretchers no problem.

[ken hatch]

I found it in the same reference as above, on page 43 he calls for three inches. I bet it depends on your foot size and how heavy a boot you wear, but he does mention on pp43 for planing crossgrain again. I have a table for my belt/ disc sander going together now with layout marks to get the stretcher bottoms three inches off the floor.

FWIW I can get a broom under my 4" off the floor stretchers no problem.

That settles it, if the Schwartz says 3" then it must be 3", I've been doing it wrong all these years. Where did I put my big crosscut saw I've legs to cut. BTW, I'm not knocking CS, he has done a lot for the hand tool community but some folks take everything he says, especially about workbenches, as if they came down the mountain on Slate Tablets.

One of my benches ended up with a lower stretcher that was a little under 3" by the time I got it low enough for easy planning. The planning part was good, everything else sucked. It now is a plant stand in the back garden and when MsBubba need to clean under it she get the blower out.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

BTW, I'm not knocking CS, he has done a lot for the hand tool community but some folks take everything he says, especially about workbenches, as if they came down the mountain on Slate Tablets.

CS and many other hand tool evangelicals, including myself, tend to 'discover' something then preach it to the community. Oftentimes afterwards we learn something to modify our understanding. With the internet, what was said years ago is still being found by beginners who start preaching it all over again.

jtk

[Tom Trees]

Guessing a big factor in the height of the strecher is if its flush with the edge of the bench.

[Tom Bender]

A bench with no stretcher gives me a place to sweep the shavings. 419963

[Ted Reischl]

My bench is now 20 years old. The top alone weighs in at 250lbs. It has been moved 5 times in those 20 years.

The stretchers are at floor level all around. They have not been a problem whatsoever.

Comparing a workbench to a kitchen without toe kicks is misleading. A kitchen counter top only protrudes an inch or so out from the cabinets (too lazy to go measure it to be precise) so a toe kick is required. My bench has about 4.5 inches of overhang all the way around so there is no need for a toe kick.

My under bench drawer units sit on the stretchers. There is about 4 inches of clearance between the top of the drawer units and the underside of the benchtop. With 4.5 inches of overhang a drawer in that space would be problematic. But, it is handy for putting things like router pads on.

Cleaning up has never been an issue. Everytime I have moved there was nothing under the bench. I guess that is because dust and chips do not have legs and cannot run under there. However, stretchers that are off the floor guarantee that all sorts of things will get underneath, screws, nails, you name it.

My stretchers, legs, and bearers are all 5 inches square. They are joined with bridle joints and each one has a humongous lag bolt thru it. The bench does not move at all.

Moving a bench like this is actually pretty easy. There is moving, and then there is MOVING. The first moving is just pushing it around the shop. That is done by prying one end up and putting a long round something under it. Like a broom handle. Once it is up on one then more can be added and after that, think Egyptians building a pyramid. The other MOVING is moving from one shop to another. The top comes off easily. All one has to do is find two reasonably strong guys to carry it out to the truck. The leg unit is much simpler.

My bench is rather large, 80 X 40 X 39 inches tall (I am a tall guy at 6'5, don't do any handplaning except fine tuning) It is a lot deeper at 40 inches than most joiner benches which were used in factories. About ten inches of that is a tool well. I built it with what I call 'deck plates' that cover the tool well. I like that 40 inches because it effectively makes the bench an assembly table when needed.

Both vises on my bench are wood screw vises that I built myself. They are 2 inch diameter screws. I find them far superior to iron/steel vise screws because wood has a lot of friction which means they do not need to be torqued down as much. I also line one of the jaws on both vises with leather which helps with holding power. Edit: The face vise on the left side opens to a full 24 inches on two 2.5 square maple guide rods.

All of the dog holes are rectangular in nature. The dogs are L shaped and can be pushed down flush with the top. I made aluminum ones so they are bit more friendly if hit with a plane.

The basic part of the top is a piece of 3 inch thick rock maple that was laminated in 1975. It was used as an electronics workbench until 1992 when it was going to be thrown out. Can you believe that? It didn't even have any scratches on it! I added 1.5 inch thick rock maple pieces to it to increase the depth and provide aprons around it. The only thing I really had to fix on it was where the meat scrap hole had been but in. Yes, it is a real cutting table for use by a butcher.

It has served me extremely well.

Like a few others have said above, we all have different preferences. When building a bench do not get trapped into thinking that you have to build it like others you have seen, build it for yourself and how you will work on it.

Another edit: I do not sweep my shop. Sweeping puts a ton of dust in the air with each push of the broom. I vacuum.