What would YOU do?

[Dale Thompson]

This is a poll and may belong in another Forum. :o Please transfer me if that is appropriate! HEY! MODS - WAKE UP! :) ;)

Hi Folks,
Please allow me to set up a totally hypothetical scenario and ask you what you, as a woodworker, would do. Do NOT let the season or non-season of the year influence your response. :) Also, remember that this is a fully anonymous poll. The only reason that your name and address would be turned over to the "Bloods" and the "Cripps" is if you disagree with the opinion of your humble pollster. ;) Here it is:

You ordered a new tool over the internet at an incredible savings below its retail price. The $200.00 price was about 1/3 of its MSRP. You received the tool and the invoice for $200. However, complicating the issue, you also received another, even MORE expensive tool as part of a "Combo" package. The second tool was listed at about $1200 MSRP.

The "special" advertised price of this $1800 MSRP "Combo" was $800. You now have an $800 "Value Package" with a financial obligation of only $200.

Your shop does not contain the "second" tool in the "combo". On your own, you would not have purchased it but it may come in handy as an "occassional use" tool.

Your "Legal" obligation is probably clear. In Wisconsin, as in most or all states, you have NO obligation to pay for or return any merchandise that has been delivered to you that has NOT been ordered!

What would YOU do?:

A. SMILE and put it in your shop!

B. Call the vendor and NEGOTIATE a "special" deal on the unordered tool. Remember that the Law is on your side.

C. RETURN the unordered tool.

[Bill Simmeth]

Call the vendor and explain what happened. Ask them to dispatch UPS to come pick up the unordered product. You should not have to pay to return it, but it should be returned. Now, if you go through this process and they never dispatch UPS to pick it up, THEN keep it!

[Corey Hallagan]

Come on Dale, what was it? Hate to send out the computer goons to rough you up!

:)

Corey

[Jim Dunn]

I probably agree with Bill, just to keep my concious straight this time of the year especially:)

[Mark Carlson]

I hope I'd do what Bill said. Its easy to say you'd do the right thing, its another to do it when your looking at a free machine you'd like to have.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I'd call and tell them about the obvious mistake and tell them you'd like to have them pick it up. If they want to negotiate a deal to keep from having it returned...play hardball!

[Richard Wolf]

The whole story is way to complicated to understand. If you return it, it will probibly cost someone their job anyway.

Richard

[Dale Thompson]

Come on Dale, what was it? Hate to send out the computer goons to rough you up! :)

Corey

Corey,

My anonymous hypothetical source will not tell me. :cool:

I can say, however, that it was NOT the cardboard that Mod "Spring" sent to me for my drawer bottoms. In fact, he inflated the weight by soaking down his entire years load of recycled cardboard by soaking it with water. :(

MORAL of the story: NEVER trust a Cheesehead with a wax mustache! :) ;)

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

The whole story is way to complicated to understand. If you return it, it will probibly cost some their job anyway.

Richard

Richard,
A REAL possibility! :(

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

just to keep my concious straight this time of the year especially:)

Jim,
I asked that everyone ignore the seasonal aspect! :) At least that is what my anonymous source requested. :eek: :)

Dale T.

[Bob Weisner]

But what if it was a more expensive tool? Say..... A BRAND NEW FELDER 731:D :D :D :D :D :cool: :cool:

[Dale Thompson]

...play hardball!

Ken,
The last time that I played "Hardball", I tried to field a hard sinking line drive. :( I went home with my teeth in my hand, a broken nose, two black eyes and a couple of PAINFUL fingers! :( :o I was three years old! :)

Dale T.

[Charlie Velasquez]

Co-worker (gourmet cooking hobbist) had almost exact same scenario, except with cooking utensils. $200 plus $1000 pots & pans set. In Iowa you have 3 business days to cancel any contract over $500. She cancelled the $1000 purchase via letter, email and phone, and received an email reply confirming the cancellation. Two weeks later received the $200 order, two days after that she received the $1000 order.

Contacted company explained the situation. Told them if they sent a pre-printed UPS label she would be glad to affix it to box and take to the UPS drop-off, but she was leaving for a vacation in two weeks.
A couple of days before she left , no label, so she called them. They told her to keep it as a "thank you" for being a valued customer.

[Jim Dunn]

Dale i thought you meant by seasonal was a tool to use outside or inside, I'd still call and try to return it summer or winter. By the way look at my recent offtopic post and you'll understand.

[Frank Hagan]

I would have to call the company and find out what they wanted to do. If they wanted to make me a deal, I would consider it. But I wouldn't start with that assumption either.

And, if the company has an employee who is sending out $800 machines to customers, and it is not stopped, that company could go broke. Then all the employees will be out of a job.

In the end, I try to think how I would explain it to my kids if a movie were made of the situation, and they saw it. Or, if Mike Wallace popped out of the closet and started asking me questions about it.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Sorry Dale I would have to try to return it. I would call and ask them to send someone to pick it up at their expense. Then if they don't show up tough. I agree if they try to get you to keep it at a price then play hard ball.

[John Bailey]

It's a no-brainer Dale. I'd have to call, explain and return it. Of course, I have been accused, with good reason at times, of having no brain.

John

[Howard Barlow]

Well, how about this question. What if you ordered the $1800 tool and received the $200 tool, instead. What would you do? Call and ask for the mistake to be corrected, or say, "Oh well, win some, lose some"?

[Vaughn McMillan]

I'd make a good faith effort to return the excess item(s), but like others here, if they didn't respond after reasonable attempts to fix the situation, I'd consider the extras to be mine.

I occasionally get into arguments with cashiers who give me too much change back. Sometimes when I tell them they've made a mistake, they get defensive about it before they even hear me say the part about how the mistake was in my favor, and I owe them money. If they don't take the money due after a reasonable attemt to give it to them, the extra money is mine.

Call it karma or good vs. bad or whatever, but it seems anything I've ever obtained through ill-gotten means failed, yet things I've acquired honestly have served me well.

- Vaughn

[Ian Barley]

I'm with others here. I would make one, no great fuss, telephone call to explain the mistake and request that they collect. If they are sloppy enough not to carry this out then they deserve to go south and eventually will whatever you do now.

Legal and correct are often different things - when I go with correct I sleep better.

[scott spencer]

Tough question. I guess my answer depends....it would depend alot on the business involved. It was from a small vendor who would be financially hurt by the deal, I'd definitely call. If it was a large conglomerate who could care less, I'd be more inclined to keep it but that doesn't necessarily mean I would....I'd just be more inclined to. I really don't know. I tend to only have hypothetical reactions to hypothetical situations....actual situations bring actual feelings of obligation and morality! ;)

I'd probably make a call or at least respond if they called me! :D

[Andy Hoyt]

Last summer I ordered a mess of hardwood from an in-state purveyor who promptly delivered it on their own truck. The driver and I unloaded, I signed the paperwork, and he went on his merry way. I then took a careful look at the material and grinned happily at 4 pieces of 5/4 S4S cherry with incredible figure that I had not ordered.

Next day I get a call, asking if I had some extra, said yes, he asked if I wanted it, said sure, he said he'd charge 25% off retail, I said come and get it, he said okay we'll get it on our next trip through there (which is at least once a week).

It's now been about six months and they've not yet picked it up.

So... it is mine yet? Is there a statute of limitations on good will and being cooperative and honest?

[John Hart]

I'd call them again Andy and just say, "If you aren't going to pick it up, I'm going to have to use it before the bugs eat it" My guess is, they'll just write it off.....Probably have already.

I ordered a circuit board for a speed control from Sears. They sent one, but I didn't receive it right away...so I called to find out the problem. They said that it must have gotten lost. So they sent another. The next day, the first one showed up...then 3 days later, the second one showed up. I called to see how to return the first one...They said, "Just keep it...no charge". It's nice to have a spare! :)

[Keith Foster]

I'd return it - or at least try. As others have suggested, call the company and have them send you a UPS or other pickup label. Then wait to see what happens.

I'm into "bad karma - good karma" stuff, and I'd figured it would come back to haunt me in a major way if I kept it. Heck, I even gave back a couple of bucks given to me in error when I was in Vegas this month. And I can't even begin to describe how much of my money they got to keep. :eek:

Just kidding - they won it fair and square - or so they say....:cool:

[Jim Kountz]

Id just call them and explain what happened. More than likely they'll want to send you a shipping label. I dont think at that value that they'll just say "hey thanks for calling, keep the $800 machine!" Maybe but probably not. I do agree with the theory however that if you make the effort and they choose not to follow through. ENJOY!! At least you tried to do the right thing.

[Bob Weisner]

Lets say you paid with a money order and instead of a $200.00 economy tablesaw,they send you a brand new top of the line $2,000.00 tablesaw, would you still call? If it were me, I think I would just wait for them to call me.

[Roger Myers]

No question in my mind... I'd call them and inform them of the error and ask them how they want to handle it.
If I did anything else, I'd never feel comfortable using that tool...
If you were running a business and made a mistake like that, what would you want the customer to do... Honesty in my mind always pays off.

If you receive too much change at a cash register, do you keep it? I know that some probably do, but I always feel a lot better if I point out the mistake and give them back what I have not honestly acquired.

As to someone losing their job...certainly possible, but not an absolute. And their are probably many more people dependant upon the success of the company for their jobs and their families well being.

Roger

[Jim Becker]

I'd have to call the company on moral grounds...and hope they let me keep whatever it is... ;)

[Chris Rosenberger]

I had somthing like this happen to me about 9 years ago. I had ordered some hardware from an area company. When the order arrived it included all of the items I ordered plus 200 pair of euro hinges & mounting plates. I called the company & explained that I had received items that I did not order. They took the invoice number & said that they would look into it & call me back. After 3 days I called them back. The man I talked to said they could not find any problem with my order & that I had received everything I had ordered. I again explained that the problem was that I had received items I did not order. I will never forget his reply. In a very rude voice he said. "I do not know what you are tring to pull on us. You received everything you ordered & that is all we can do for you". Then he hung up. I still have not used all the hinges & I only call this company as a last resort.

[Jim Junor]

This kinda falls in the 'do unto others' catagory. What would would you want somebody to do if you were the seller?

Whether it's a big corporation or somebody selling out of their garage, the unnamed party would be knowingly taking advantage of someone's human foibles for their own gain. Personally I lack that level of guile and don't think I could enjoy anything I'd obtained in such backhanded manner.

On the other hand, it would be the sole responsiblity of the seller to make any and all arrangements to have the product returned at no cost and minimal inconvience to me. Failing that, the storage costs would start accumlating and eventually I'd become the happy owner of the whateveritis.

[Dennis Peacock]

I said...return it. Why would I want something taking up shop floor space with a tool that would only get "rare" use. I need all the floor space I can get when making big projects......:D

[Mark Singer]

If it is not a promotion and is actually a mistake, there is only one thing to do...the right thing! Why take advantage of a company trying to survive in this very tough world that happened to make a mistake...

[Jesse Cloud]

Bought from one of the big internet sellers. About $100 worth of misc stuff. Arrived fine, I was happy. Next day same thing arrives. I go thru their process, explain on their form that this was a duplicate shipment, go to the post office and mail it back with good conscience. Got an email the next week that said they had credited my account for $100, wound up spending nothing and getting $100 worth of free merchandise. I gave up and figured the story had become too complicated for them to ever sort out.

I picked the return choice, but I'm too old to suffer fools for very long.

[Byron Trantham]

I would call and make arrangements to return it, if that's what they want. If not, great.

I year ago I ordered a dozen or so full extension slides. I received three more than I ordered. I called them and they wanted them back - at their expense. About a month later I had to order a few more and the lady recognized my voice and asked if i was the one who called about the over shipment. I said yes and she said "postage is free"!

[Rob Blaustein]

Call and offer to return--for two reasons, both stated by others: 1. it's the right thing to do; and 2. what comes around, goes around.

[Rick Reinsma]

Your real concern is that you really would like to keep the additional un ordered merchandise and you might not be able to keep it if you contact them. I like what one of the posters suggested that you ask them to send a pre-paid postage label that way you are doing the Honest thing and the ball is in their court. Who know's maybe they will let you keep it and you can feel good using it knowing you where honest in your actions then you can let us all know what it was that you got...Good Luck

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I would smile first, but then better judgement and impending Karma reversal would set in and I'd at least call them and try to set it straight. Now, if the company had the 'press 1 for an idiot' system, I might be swayed to hang up....in whcih case I would probably write them an email and tell them to send me a label. If none of that worked, well, I guess I got a new tool for free!

[Lee DeRaud]

Um, well, karma and conscience are all well and good, but...

I'd notify them and answer the door for whoever comes to pick it up. Beyond that, I wouldn't expend any energy to correct their mistake: that would be aiding and abetting stupidity.

[Bill Grumbine]

Every now and then when one of these type threads starts, I have to wonder why the person asking the question is even bothering to ask. That person already knows what the right thing is to do. Why bother to poll the rest of us?

The time of year does not matter.

The size of the company does not matter.

The size of the mistake does not matter.

The right thing, for those few still wondering, is to make amends. This is not an issue of time or money, this is an issue of character. Even if it might be legal to keep the thing, how could a person who asks this question bear to even look at it every time he or she went into the shop? If the person wouldn't have a problem with their conscience about keeping something like this, they wouldn't be asking the question.

Bill

[Dale Thompson]

Every now and then when one of these type threads starts, I have to wonder why the person asking the question is even bothering to ask. That person already knows what the right thing is to do. Why bother to poll the rest of us?

If the person wouldn't have a problem with their conscience about keeping something like this, they wouldn't be asking the question.

Bill

Bill,
I detect a note of pontification in your response. :) ;)

Please allow me to respond:
- My woodworking Forum is the CREEK. I am not familiar with what goes on on other forums but I do not remember a thread like this one in the nearly three years that I have been a proud member of SMC.
- Perhaps you and I live in a Utopian Society but we must recall that some regions of our great nation do not have that same luxury. People are being beaten and murdered daily over trivial items such as a pair of tennis shoes and a Team-Logo Jacket. Honesty, sympathy, empathy and decency are no longer common themes that can be accepted by mere assumption.
- The Poll is NOT mandatory!
- You appear to be pre-assuming a decision that has already been made. Like me, my "anonymous" client is a Norwegian. :o On the positive side, however, he/she is usually a pretty decent person. ;) :)

In reality, the numbers are not $200 vs $800. They are in fact, according to my "anonymous" client, $100 vs $400. As you so correctly pointed out, that does not matter in the least. :)

My REAL reason for posting this poll was the fact that I am PROUD to consider myself to be a member of the woodworking fraternity. Being a "bottom feeder" in this elite hobby does not bother me in the least! I frequently express my pride by emailing friends and relatives of mine certain links to this board that exemplify the reasons for my pride.

They may not be able to understand how I can stand for hours in front of a noisy saw, lathe, router, etc., with a noisy dust collector roaring in the background. :confused: I believe, however, that they can understand the reasons why I feel so PROUD of the common, friendly, understanding decency that is intrinsic to the practitioners of our beloved hobby and/or business. :D

Besides that, Jesus was a Carpenter! :)

Dale T.

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi Dale

No pontification really, just my regular blunt way of saying things. :D I participate on a number of forums and I see this come up from time to time. This is an either/or question. Either the person is going to do the right thing or he isn't. His neighborhood, environment, or whatever might have an influence on his decision, but it is still either/or.

If he is wondering about it, then he already knows what he should do. Asking for a consensus in either direction does not change the right or the wrong of it. Very often the right thing to do is not the popular, but that doesn't change the right or wrong of it either. People who don't care and really do believe that if it comes their way then they somehow deserve it don't really dwell on these issues.

I am not saying that a person should know what is right or what is wrong. I meet many people on a regular basis who have no idea. What I am saying is that if they are wondering, then they already have enough knowlege, and probably even enough wisdom to make the right decision. And, if that person is wondering, even if he gets a majority to tell him to keep it, I somehow doubt he would be comfortable going down that road.

By the way, back in May of 1983 I was told by a psychiatrist during a formal evaluation that I tended to see too many things in black and white. He recommended a "good liberal seminary" to cure me. Well I didn't follow those instructions - I attended a very conservative one, so I still tend to see things in black and white. So maybe I do sound a little pontifical sometimes. But it is because that really is the way I think.

Bill

[Keith Foster]

Besides that, Jesus was a Carpenter! :) I'm pretty sure he used his own tools. :cool:

[Dale Thompson]

Hi Dale
By the way, back in May of 1983 I was told by a psychiatrist during a formal evaluation that I tended to see too many things in black and white. He recommended a "good liberal seminary" to cure me. Well I didn't follow those instructions - I attended a very conservative one, so I still tend to see things in black and white. So maybe I do sound a little pontifical sometimes. But it is because that really is the way I think.

Bill

Hey Bill,
"Black or White" is an OK way to look at things. I like to see them as, "Right of Wrong". I think that I went to the same Seminar that you did. Compromise is a necessary part of life but there is a time when, "A LINE MUST BE DRAWN IN THE SAND!" :cool:

If you are STILL looking for an excellent liberal seminar, try reading Ann Coulter's book, How to Talk to a Liberal - If You HAVE to"! :)

MAN!!! She is one TOUGH lady!! Margaret Thatcher comes to mind! :D :)

Dale T.

[Reg Mitchell]

When I was a small kid, around 5 I think, I took a pack of gum from a store my mom worked at :o . She made me go back and tell the manager. He smiled and ask if i knew if i was wrong and I said yes. He asked if i was gonna do it again and i said no. He gave me the gum. My mom gave me an a$$ beating :eek: and in later years said she gave him a piece of her mind too. . I would like to think i would do what i see as the right thing and return the item, who knows they might give it to ya.

[John Weber]

Every now and then when one of these type threads starts, I have to wonder why the person asking the question is even bothering to ask. That person already knows what the right thing is to do. Why bother to poll the rest of us?

The time of year does not matter.

The size of the company does not matter.

The size of the mistake does not matter.

The right thing, for those few still wondering, is to make amends. This is not an issue of time or money, this is an issue of character. Even if it might be legal to keep the thing, how could a person who asks this question bear to even look at it every time he or she went into the shop? If the person wouldn't have a problem with their conscience about keeping something like this, they wouldn't be asking the question.

Bill

Totally agree!

[Frank Hagan]

Last summer I ordered a mess of hardwood from an in-state purveyor who promptly delivered it on their own truck. The driver and I unloaded, I signed the paperwork, and he went on his merry way. I then took a careful look at the material and grinned happily at 4 pieces of 5/4 S4S cherry with incredible figure that I had not ordered.

Next day I get a call, asking if I had some extra, said yes, he asked if I wanted it, said sure, he said he'd charge 25% off retail, I said come and get it, he said okay we'll get it on our next trip through there (which is at least once a week).

It's now been about six months and they've not yet picked it up.

So... it is mine yet? Is there a statute of limitations on good will and being cooperative and honest?

The law in most states is that if a consumer receives unordered merchandise, it is theirs to keep. The intent of these laws was to stop the practice of shipping an item "blind" and following up with an invoice. But often the law distinguishes between a consumer and a business, so if you are ordering merchandise for your business, this kind of law may not apply.

I like to go beyond the law to what I would want someone to do if the situation were reversed. I would appreciate the opportunity to correct a mistake. Once you give that, I think a fair amount of time is 90 days. I remember the old "lost and found" rules that gave 90 days for the rightful owner to claim something, and then if they didn't, the "finder" got the item. And 90 days is sufficient time for any business to react to something.

[Andy Hoyt]

Thanks, Frank.

After following this thread off and on all day, it's taught me that should they never come fetch it by the time I next head down their way (three hours away) I'll take the cherry with me and surprise them with it. I know I'll feel good; and as Faramir said, will have "shown my quality".

And while I'm here might I also say that Mr. Thompson sure seems to have hoodwinked me, and perhaps others too. I'm still waiting for that wonderful Gotcha Moment he's so famous for.

[Pete Harbin]

Dale,

Definately have to call and explain the error. It shouldn't cost me anything to correct the mistake, but I also think it's ok for me to put some effort into the return. I wouldn't be so closed as to say, "You have to send someone out here at X:XX time on Y day, or you're out of luck."

Andy, nicely done! If you find yourself making a trip out there from time to time and are willing to haul their wood back to them, then you sir have shown some fine quality indeed. Wood is only worth $X per board foot, honor is invaluable.

Pete

[Dale Thompson]

When I was a small kid, around 5 I think, I took a pack of gum from a store my mom worked at :o . She made me go back and tell the manager. He smiled and ask if i knew if i was wrong and I said yes. He asked if i was gonna do it again and i said no. He gave me the gum. My mom gave me an a$$ beating :eek: and in later years said she gave him a piece of her mind too. . I would like to think i would do what i see as the right thing and return the item, who knows they might give it to ya.


Reg,
I certainly admire your MOM. She did the RIGHT thing! There was no question or poll involved.

Many years ago, my son had a bit of a problem with the Police in terms of "stealing" some lumber for a "shack". Of the eight kids involved, seven of them were accompanied to the "Juvenile Officer" by their mothers. Guess what? MY kid had his "old man" there! :eek:

After the Officer "explained" my sons "rights" to him and darn near gave him a medal for being a "juvenile", I asked for a time to speak with my son present. I got it! :cool:

Simply stated, "If he stole that lumber, he will work HARD TIME to replace the monetary value of the lumber. After that, his room will be reupholstered with the skin that I remove from his body with my belt and other tools of brutality"! :mad:

As luck would have it, he was not a part of the crime and I never heard from the cops again regarding my son! :D I wonder if I scared him? :confused: :confused: :) Maybe that is why he later fled the house and joined the Marines!?

Dale T.

[Frank Chaffee]

Dale,
Self flagellation is your right.

A threat to beat your son is a crime.

Frank

[Lee DeRaud]

A threat to beat your son is a crime.I'd be surprised if the threat is a crime, even today, even in Wisconsin. And back in the dawn of time when Dale's son was a "kid", I'd be really surprised.

[Frank Chaffee]

Lee,
I was not referring to the laws of the State of Wisconsin when I said that a threat to beat another human being is a crime.

Need I say more?

Frank

[Chris Padilla]

LOL...everyone is so bloody moral on here! I'll say what everyone is really thinking: Keep it!!! Don't tell anyone!!! Don't go out of your way to contact anyone about it!!! However, if the company contacts you, I'd suggest fessing up or dropping dead right away! ;)

[Ken Salisbury]

I would do 2 things:

First: Call and workout something with the supplier.

Second: Close this thread to further posting. Which I have already done :)

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