Why a 12" jointer?

[Ollie McDottie]

I'm in the market for a new jointer. So obviously, I've spent an inordinate amount of time reading up on the options/opinions. Currently I'm waffling between an 8" Powermatic HH parallelogram and Laguna 12" HH parallelogram. Blog after blog, forum upon forum, folks seem to all say bigger is better. But I'm not sure why and what sort of work they are doing that drives this thinking.

I make fine furniture. Tables, beds, boxes, etc. Lots of laminations. In my workflow, I take rough lumber to my jointer to get a clean edge, that then allows me to go to bandsaw for very rough sizing of board width. As a rule, I never use boards wider than 4" to avoid warping and to mitigate seasonal movement. Then back to jointer to face and edge joint before thickness planer for thickness, then I glue up. After I use my drum sander for final flattening and cleaning up. The width I get from the drum sander, I could never get from any jointer.

So I'm left wondering why would I need a jointer wider than 8"? Is there some sort of work that I'm not foreseeing given that I've only been crafting for a few years? Generally, I don't do cabinet work, and even the dressers and cabinets I've made, I've laminated sides, doors, etc. with 3" boards, and couldn't see why I'd go back to the jointer after lamination when I have a 22" wide drum sander. So is that the answer -- the drum sander negates my need for a widest possible jointer? Why get a jointer so much wider than any edge or face width I seem to ever need, given warping and movement concerns?

[Stewart Lang]

Sounds like you just don't have a need for a large jointer. Nothing wrong with that. Probably save you some money too.

I have a 16" jointer though and I love it. I like wide boards, so I frequently go up to 10", and on rare occasions up to the full 16". Also for live edge slabs it's helpful. For instance, if you did floating shelves from 12" live edge slabs. It's a whole lot easier and quicker to flatten them on a jointer, than a router sled.

The other benefit is that usually a wider jointer also has longer beds, which are very helpful for getting a straight edge/surface on extra long stock.

One more benefit is that you can slide the fence back and forth to use different sections of the knives. Basically you can hypothetically go longer before re-sharpening/changing inserts.

Everybody always thinks bigger is better, but honestly if you don't have the need for it, then don't bother with it.

[Dan Friedrichs]

People get wider jointers to flatten the faces of wide boards that they don't intend to rip down further.

As you describe your workflow, you're right that there's no need for a bigger jointer (even a 6" model sounds like it would do what you need). But many (most?) people like using wide boards (to maintain continuous figure and avoid excess processing of lumber), and while concern for warping is valid, it sounds like your concern may be bordering on excessive.

[Randy Heinemann]

I have owned an 8" Jet HH jointer for 6 years or so and it was a game changer for me. Others will say that the widest jointer you can afford is the thing to buy. In general, wider is better. However, if you almost never use hardwoods wider than 8",it would appear you don't need a 12" jointer. For those rare times I've needed to flatten a board wider than 8" I have always found a resource to do that or found another way to process the lumber (like a sled for your planer).

Plus, then there is the added weight of a 12" jointer. If your shop is in the basement, like mine is, getting even an 8" jointer down there is a challenge.

[Darcy Warner]

I know right, that's why I skipped 12" and went 24 and 30"

[Jared Sankovich]

I know right, that's why I skipped 12" and went 24 and 30"

16" or 20" seems like a sweet spot.. big enough to be useful but not outrageous in a space challenged shop

[Ollie McDottie]

I know right, that's why I skipped 12" and went 24 and 30"

Can I ask what kind of work you're doing that has you face jointing boards that wide? I'm just trying to understand the justification for scope of machine. Stewart Lang above explained his use for slabs/wide live edge boards, and that makes perfect sense. But what other applications am I not considering?

[Ollie McDottie]

... concern for warping is valid, it sounds like your concern may be bordering on excessive.

Unfortunately my "concerns" are based on experience. Most of my work is done and exists between the coast and the desert where humidity and temperature fluctuations wreak havoc on wider boards. And wood movement in my experience, ought never be underestimated. In fact, I mostly see furniture blown to smithereens specifically because of the lack of due concern.

[Jared Sankovich]

Can I ask what kind of work you're doing that has you face jointing boards that wide? I'm just trying to understand the justification for scope of machine. Stewart Lang above explained his use for slabs/wide live edge boards, and that makes perfect sense. But what other applications am I not considering?

For me 20" wide boards are common enough, and i never rip a board for a glue up.
418960

[Darcy Warner]

Can I ask what kind of work you're doing that has you face jointing boards that wide? I'm just trying to understand the justification for scope of machine. Stewart Lang above explained his use for slabs/wide live edge boards, and that makes perfect sense. But what other applications am I not considering?

Anything I can fit on it. After a few slabs for customers it wears me out, miss my facer. Also great for cleaning up bent laminations. I usually keep a 12" machine around for muck work though.

[johnny means]

Of the hundreds of boards I handle in a year, only a handful will come into the shop at less than eight inches wide. I looked to faces joint before ripping so I can see what I'm working with. I think most production shops would consider <8" boards to be seconds and of limited use.

[Dave Cav]

As a rule, I never use boards wider than 4"

Then an 8" should be fine. Generally 8" jointers are heavier and better built than 6" jointers and can give better results. I've used a number of 8" jointers both in my school shops and at home and eventually upgraded to a 12" when a good one came available, and I wouldn't want to go back to anything smaller. I bought it from a commercial architectural cabinet and furniture shop. They had a 24" and just got a 30" and didn't need the "small" one anymore.

[Edward Dyas]

I'm in the market for a new jointer. So obviously, I've spent an inordinate amount of time reading up on the options/opinions. Currently I'm waffling between an 8" Powermatic HH parallelogram and Laguna 12" HH parallelogram. Blog after blog, forum upon forum, folks seem to all say bigger is better. But I'm not sure why and what sort of work they are doing that drives this thinking.

I make fine furniture. Tables, beds, boxes, etc. Lots of laminations. In my workflow, I take rough lumber to my jointer to get a clean edge, that then allows me to go to bandsaw for very rough sizing of board width. As a rule, I never use boards wider than 4" to avoid warping and to mitigate seasonal movement. Then back to jointer to face and edge joint before thickness planer for thickness, then I glue up. After I use my drum sander for final flattening and cleaning up. The width I get from the drum sander, I could never get from any jointer.

So I'm left wondering why would I need a jointer wider than 8"? Is there some sort of work that I'm not foreseeing given that I've only been crafting for a few years? Generally, I don't do cabinet work, and even the dressers and cabinets I've made, I've laminated sides, doors, etc. with 3" boards, and couldn't see why I'd go back to the jointer after lamination when I have a 22" wide drum sander. So is that the answer -- the drum sander negates my need for a widest possible jointer? Why get a jointer so much wider than any edge or face width I seem to ever need, given warping and movement concerns?You may not need a bigger jointer for what you are doing. I bought a 12" jointer because I was making entry doors and I needed to flatten and straighten the stiles and bottom rails of doors. If you never need to flatten a board wider than 8" then you may not need one.

Don't say you could never flatten a board on any jointer. There are some out there 36" wide. I cauld't picture running one but there out there. Facing a board 12" is enough for me.

[Doug Dawson]

People get wider jointers to flatten the faces of wide boards that they don't intend to rip down further.

As you describe your workflow, you're right that there's no need for a bigger jointer (even a 6" model sounds like it would do what you need). But many (most?) people like using wide boards (to maintain continuous figure and avoid excess processing of lumber), and while concern for warping is valid, it sounds like your concern may be bordering on excessive.

Oh nuts. Ripping a board in the interest of stability does almost nothing to mess with the visual figure of the board (you'd have to really look for it.)

Unless you're dealing with orthodox quarter sawn lumber, incorporating super wide boards into a piece of fine furniture (including the whole "slab" thing that is currently fashionable) is IMO malpractice. The 8" jointer is usually sufficient. And if you're really in love with a particular slab, the 12" jointer is not going to be enough anyway.

[Paul F Franklin]

Oh nuts. Ripping a board in the interest of stability does almost nothing to mess with the visual figure of the board (you'd have to really look for it.)

Well I respectively disagree. Ripping a board does nothing *for* stability unless you flip alternate boards when you glue them back together, and if you do that, it certainly *does* mess with the visual figure.
All ripping a board and gluing it back in the same orientation does is allow you to waste less material getting it flat. It's not like the glue provides some anti-warp force.

[Doug Dawson]

Well I respectively disagree. Ripping a board does nothing *for* stability unless you flip alternate boards when you glue them back together, and if you do that, it certainly *does* mess with the visual figure.
All ripping a board and gluing it back in the same orientation does is allow you to waste less material getting it flat. It's not like the glue provides some anti-warp force.

Think about what quarter sawn actually means, in your minds eye, on the order of an inch or so (focus) and try to extrapolate to a wider board. It's helpful to have read and absorbed the Hoadley books, which can be transformative if you let them.

[Jeff Duncan]

Think about what quarter sawn actually means, in your minds eye, on the order of an inch or so (focus) and try to extrapolate to a wider board. It's helpful to have read and absorbed the Hoadley books, which can be transformative if you let them.

I'm not sure if I follow what your trying to say.... but I agree completely with Paul. Ripping a board in half, then gluing together in the same orientation does nothing for stability. It creates a lot of work, potentially ruins the look of a piece of wood, and does zero for stability. I don't see how comparing quarter sawn lumber would have anything to do with this? But again I admit I may be missing something?

As far as the OP's question on using a wider jointer, I'm also in the camp of generally trying to face boards full width. Thats not always possible on my 16" jointer, but I go as wide as possible. It makes life much easier than trying to cut boards into narrow widths first. The concept of gluing together narrow strips seems to me to be more akin to factory furniture where the goal is to minimize waste and maximize profitability. I'm not saying this is what your doing, as it sounds like the work you do allows for this method. Its more a generalization on where furniture making is headed.

If you find your doing fine with a 6" or an 8" or whatever size, then there's really no reason to upgrade. I knew I 'needed' a wider jointer and so I made the decision to find one. I also know I'd 'like' a larger 20" or even 24", but that's not enough reason to upgrade. I'd also have a tougher time fitting a larger jointer into my already overcrowded shop. So basically buy and use what works for you;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Jim Andrew]

I have a 12" jointer because the price of a 16" jointer was twice as much. I often use lumber wider than 12" and would like to be able to joint wider, but rip the wide boards down the center, joint them flat, surface, then try to fit the boards back together to get the grain oriented correctly. All my lumber comes from my farm, sawed on my Cooks MP32 mill.

[Jim Becker]

I never use boards wider than 4" to avoid warping and to mitigate seasonal movement.

There is the clue the answer to your question. Many of us learned long ago that wider lumber is just fine to use and if properly dried and milled, is perfectly stable. I'd rather use three boards for a table top than six or seven any day of the week and if I select the lumber carefully, the joints will be barely visible. My J/P has 350mm capacity (about 13.68") and there are times when I wish I had bought the 410mm (16") version. (I beg favor with another 'Creeker when I need that because he has the 16" machine...and wishes he had wider) Honestly, I haven't glued up a panel in many, many years from narrow boards. I also don't care about the "up/down" thing with growth rings...the best face ALWAYS is the show face. Using joinery that properly accommodates wood movement alleviates any issues with warping, etc., when panels are constructed this way.

I'm puzzled by your connection between the jointer and the drum sander. To me, they are not related at all. Jointers are for flattening/straightening before thicknessing with the planer. A drum sander to me is a "finesse" tool that's great for leveling slight imperfections after a glue-up or fine tuning the thickness of really thin stock. But a drum sander has no real ability to flatten lumber in the same way that a thickness planer isn't suitable (by itself) for that task, either. (Yes, some folks use a sled to "face joint" boards using the planer)

BTW, one other important benefit of a wider jointer surface is to be able to straighten/flatten/clean irregularly shaped workpieces, such as curved components, etc.

[Mark Hennebury]

If you don't know why you would need a larger jointer; you don't need one.
When you need one you won't need to ask why.

[Phillip Mitchell]

If you don't know why you would need a larger jointer; you don't need one.
When you need one you won't need to ask why.

This is the truth

[Mark e Kessler]

Well there are a boat load of reasons, here is one. Say you want a 12” or 16” 3/4” thick bookmatch from solid, I resaw 7” or 9” wide 10/4, sticker and let rest, then skip dress on jointer sticker and let rest, glue up rip close to 12” or 16” then final joint and plane. Of course this is me being overly anal about preparing lumber...

limiting your lumber to 4” is why you think you only need an 8” jointer...








I'm in the market for a new jointer. So obviously, I've spent an inordinate amount of time reading up on the options/opinions. Currently I'm waffling between an 8" Powermatic HH parallelogram and Laguna 12" HH parallelogram. Blog after blog, forum upon forum, folks seem to all say bigger is better. But I'm not sure why and what sort of work they are doing that drives this thinking.

I make fine furniture. Tables, beds, boxes, etc. Lots of laminations. In my workflow, I take rough lumber to my jointer to get a clean edge, that then allows me to go to bandsaw for very rough sizing of board width. As a rule, I never use boards wider than 4" to avoid warping and to mitigate seasonal movement. Then back to jointer to face and edge joint before thickness planer for thickness, then I glue up. After I use my drum sander for final flattening and cleaning up. The width I get from the drum sander, I could never get from any jointer.

So I'm left wondering why would I need a jointer wider than 8"? Is there some sort of work that I'm not foreseeing given that I've only been crafting for a few years? Generally, I don't do cabinet work, and even the dressers and cabinets I've made, I've laminated sides, doors, etc. with 3" boards, and couldn't see why I'd go back to the jointer after lamination when I have a 22" wide drum sander. So is that the answer -- the drum sander negates my need for a widest possible jointer? Why get a jointer so much wider than any edge or face width I seem to ever need, given warping and movement concerns?

[Larry Edgerton]

I have a 12" SCMI because I no longer had room for my 24" at my new digs. Miss that 24"..........

[Pete Staehling]

T
I'm puzzled by your connection between the jointer and the drum sander. To me, they are not related at all. Jointers are for flattening/straightening before thicknessing with the planer.
Absolutely. While it isn't the right tool for the job, you can make a drum sander do some of the work of a planer. It will be a poor imitation. To make it do even a poorer imitation of a jointer you'd need to use a sled.

[Jay Kepley]

I'm in the early stages of learning the craft, and I have a little 6" popcorn Jet jointer. I've also got two kids in college, so I'm only in the "dream stage" of a more permanent jointer. A Grizzly 12" jointer with a HH is $5,000. A 16" Griz is $7,500. It seems to me that a Hammer A3-41 - which gets you a 16" jointer and a 16" planer with HH - comparatively is a pretty good deal. On sale, with a mobility kit and the handy gauge on the wheel, I believe it would cost less than the Griz 16" jointer. Good luck!

[Ollie McDottie]

"I'm puzzled by your connection between the jointer and the drum sander. To me, they are not related at all. Jointers are for flattening/straightening before thicknessing with the planer. A drum sander to me is a "finesse" tool that's great for leveling slight imperfections after a glue-up or fine tuning the thickness of really thin stock. But a drum sander has no real ability to flatten lumber in the same way that a thickness planer isn't suitable (by itself) for that task, either. (Yes, some folks use a sled to "face joint" boards using the planer)"

My connection between sander and jointer is in regard to what I have read about some people using such wide jointer to clean up laminations, i.e. face/edge joint on jointer, thickness on planer, glue up, then go back to jointer to clean up post glue up. As such, seemingly justifying the need for a wider jointer even if they largely employ 2-4 boards as the stock for their laminations. I wasn't trying to suggest that a drum sander would do the initial face or edging flattening that you achieve with a jointer.

[Brian Steinberger]

I’m surprised no one has mentioned this yet. I make one face flat with a hand plane. This doesn’t mean planing the whole face. Just knocking the high corners off so it doesn’t rock on a flat bench. Then into the planer. Then flip for the other side. This works perfectly for me every time. Then you’re only limited by the width of your planer. That said I do own a 6” jointer however for edges and boards under 6” in width.

[Mike Cutler]

I'm in the market for a new jointer. So obviously, I've spent an inordinate amount of time reading up on the options/opinions. Currently I'm waffling between an 8" Powermatic HH parallelogram and Laguna 12" HH parallelogram. Blog after blog, forum upon forum, folks seem to all say bigger is better. But I'm not sure why and what sort of work they are doing that drives this thinking.

I make fine furniture. Tables, beds, boxes, etc. Lots of laminations. In my workflow, I take rough lumber to my jointer to get a clean edge, that then allows me to go to bandsaw for very rough sizing of board width. As a rule, I never use boards wider than 4" to avoid warping and to mitigate seasonal movement. Then back to jointer to face and edge joint before thickness planer for thickness, then I glue up. After I use my drum sander for final flattening and cleaning up. The width I get from the drum sander, I could never get from any jointer.

So I'm left wondering why would I need a jointer wider than 8"? Is there some sort of work that I'm not foreseeing given that I've only been crafting for a few years? Generally, I don't do cabinet work, and even the dressers and cabinets I've made, I've laminated sides, doors, etc. with 3" boards, and couldn't see why I'd go back to the jointer after lamination when I have a 22" wide drum sander. So is that the answer -- the drum sander negates my need for a widest possible jointer? Why get a jointer so much wider than any edge or face width I seem to ever need, given warping and movement concerns?


Ollie
The tools and machinery folks acquire, is generally a reflection of their interest, the style of the projects they make, the wood they like to work with, and their internal desire. If your projects to date have not necessitated the need for a wider jointer, then you don't need one.
There are a few statements in your post that are somewhat inconsistent with established practice and knowledge.
Here are a few;
The width of the board is not always an indication of stability, or lack of stability. I've had 34" wide boards that haven't warped, twisted,or cupped, in a decade in a non climate controlled garage shop. I've also had 6" drawer stock that wouldn't remain stable to save it's life.
I have made some pretty large projects through the years that required largish panel glueups. They all remain stable to this day.
All wood will expand and contract with humidity. Ripping to a lesser width, and regluing, is not going to stop this. I have made cutting boards out of solid 16" wide stock, and I have made them the same width using 2,3, or 4, pieces of material, edge glued. The expansion, and contraction is not significantly less with the glued up panels.
I try to source the best material I can find. I avoid flatsawn lumber, and typically gravitate toward riffsawn and quartersawn for stability, but again, there are no guarantees. Sometimes even the straightest grained piece of material can be become a banana on the table saw.

A drum sander and a jointer do not perform the same function. They're completely different machines, for completely different operations.
You're obviously using your drum sander in a manner that works for you, but it is not "Jointing" the material. You're achieving a statistically flat panel, but that's the extent of it. What is taking you multiple passes to achieve on the drum sander, is accomplished much more quickly with a jointer and planer.
The jointer makes a flat face, and jointed edge relative to a board face, that is reflective of the setting of the angle of the fence. If the jointer and planer are set up, and being used correctly, the only need for the drum sander is to sand out the imperfections manifested in the glue up of the panel, or any knife marks in the surfaces. The material is statistically flat, and both faces parallel, before the sander is even turned on.

A wider jointer allows you skew a board across the cutter head.This makes jointing the faces of more difficult grained material easier and less prone to tear out. The same thing is accomplished with a hand plane, in the same manner. If you're only edge jointing with a jointer, you're only using 25% of what a jointer can do.
I also would not run a glued up panel back through a jointer, or a planer. There is nothing good about mixing dried glue, with sharp metal knives.

I'm not sure what type of drawers you're making, but mine are always one solid field, or book matched. I've never personally made a drawer out of multiple pieces edge glued. Not that it can't be done, no reason it couldn't. Ive just not done it.

A 16" jointer is huge for most people. A 6" will get most folks by, but is limited. An 8", in my opinion, is not that much bigger than a 6". A 12" would probably do 90%+ of everything a home shop, or small shop, would need. Well, except for Darcy.;) I like the 12" size, even though I have a 16" jointer. I also have a 6" jointer.
I actually think I would have been money ahead, If i had a bought a combination 12" jointer/planer years ago.

[Andrew Joiner]

Can I ask what kind of work you're doing that has you face jointing boards that wide? I'm just trying to understand the justification for scope of machine. Stewart Lang above explained his use for slabs/wide live edge boards, and that makes perfect sense. But what other applications am I not considering?
If you hang out on this forum awhile you'll get a better picture of the members who respond.
Some buy and sell machinery.
Some may be more passionate about big machines than the products they craft.
Some are more value oriented in their advice.

Just like in real life peoples opinions are based on many things.
I'm a retired cabinetmaker. I made lots of money woodworking without any jointer. I would never need a big jointer. Processing any wide or long stock on a jointer is a lot of heavy lifting. I use sleds now in my hobby shop and they're almost as fast with less manual labor.

[Derek Cohen]

I think of the bandsaw, jointer, and thicknesser/planer working together as a team. Joint and edge one side, resaw to near thickness, and then finish thicknessing. To do this for wider boards, all need to share the same capacity: resaw height = jointer- and thicknesser widths. Mine are all at the 12” mark. Most of the rough sawn timber I get is between 10 - 12”.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phillip Mitchell]

It all depends on what you build, the lumber you tend to work with, and how much it bothers you to rip down lumber just to mill it. Everybody will have different answers to the above criteria, but in the realm of jointers, bigger is rarely worse unless you simply don’t have the space or electrical requirements for a larger machine. I’ve used 6” machines, used to own an 8” delta, currently own a 12” Oliver, and have used machines up to 16” wide doing all types of personal and professional solid wood woodworking and there’s never a been a time when I’ve thought “man, if only this jointer were smaller...”

Longer beds and a stouter build quality alone is usually reason enough for me to gravitate towards a bigger machine, even if I’m just edge jointing. It seems that the OP works in a particularly distinctive way that avoids lumber wider than 4” (?) and that’s a unique situation, but the first time you want to mill a 8/4 board that’s 10” wide and 6’ long, I don’t think you would regret having a bigger jointer.

Different strokes for different folks.

[Thomas Crawford]

So what are the best options for 12" jointer if one was to buy new? It's a significant step up in price from an 8".

[Stewart Lang]

So what are the best options for 12" jointer if one was to buy new? It's a significant step up in price from an 8".


I'd suggest skip buying new at first, and look at some old iron ones. I'd rather check out a used one where I can bring my straight edge to analyze the beds for flatness, over just buying a new one where you don't know what you'll end up with. My 16" 1950 Moak's beds are flat to within 0.015-0.02" across their surface. Even modern day SCMI's, Hammers, etc. have a lower factory tolerance than that (up to like 0.06 or 0.08"?). Top-end Felders and Martins are most likely very high tolerance, but also 10x the price I payed for my fully restored Moak which runs like the day it came out of the factory. It's also single phase which was a bonus for me since I don't have 3-phase.

Of course, you could also buy a brand new Grizzly and just get lucky having perfect beds on it :)

[Patrick Kane]

We are all limited in some fashion by shop size/budget/electrical service, but id always rather have more machine than i need. I have a 500mm jointer, and have surfaced a few 18-19" boards. I have several 20-22" boards on hand as well. Im the complete opposite of you, if i can make a panel or a top in as few boards as possible, I am a happy camper. A 36" table top out of two 18" boards is much faster and convenient--and frankly, better looking--than 9 separate 4" wide boards. I resaw to 20" somewhat often, which is convenient to flatten on a 20" machine.

This was stated previously, but a 12"+ jointer is considerably better built than a 6-8" machine. Better fence designs(typically), more power, longer tables, larger diameter cutterblocks for better surface finish, and built to hold tolerances through heavy use.

[Phillip Mitchell]

So what are the best options for 12" jointer if one was to buy new? It's a significant step up in price from an 8".

Buy used is a much better value and the older machines were built better than most of what you can buy new these days.

[Donald Hofmann]

I find all of the conversations about 12" jointers interesting. I haven't done much woodworking for the last 6 or 7 years but back in those days a 8" jointer was "what's happening".

If you had a 8" jointer it worked great with a 15" planer whereas if you had a 6" jointer it worked well with a benchtop planer.

Jointer/Planers were around back then but not as many were bought as are now.

Just my observations..........

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm in the early stages of learning the craft, and I have a little 6" popcorn Jet jointer. I've also got two kids in college, so I'm only in the "dream stage" of a more permanent jointer. A Grizzly 12" jointer with a HH is $5,000. A 16" Griz is $7,500. It seems to me that a Hammer A3-41 - which gets you a 16" jointer and a 16" planer with HH - comparatively is a pretty good deal. On sale, with a mobility kit and the handy gauge on the wheel, I believe it would cost less than the Griz 16" jointer. Good luck!

True BUT....... you can buy used and do a whole lot better. My used Italian 20" planer and 16" jointer together cost much less than that 12" Grizzly jointer you mention costs. Plus they're of considerably better quality which means a lot to me. The toughest thing if you have a small shop is finding room and power for the bigger machines. If you can handle those two obstacles.... your golden!

good luck,
JeffD

[Derek Cohen]

One of the reasons we have seen an increase in 12” jointers is the combination machine (jointer/thicknesser-planer). The 8” jointer was a common choice several years ago because it was so much cheaper than a 12” jointer. The decision to get a combination machine made it a cheaper route to a wide jointer. (This was a novel idea several years ago, and Popular Woodworking magazine published an article I wrote for them on this topic). Replacing a 8” stand alone jointer, the combo machine I purchased is the Hammer A3-31 with the shellix carbide helical “silent” head. It was delivered and commissioned by Felder locally. It has provided perfect service from day dot. Above all, it is a quiet machine.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

So what are the best options for 12" jointer if one was to buy new? It's a significant step up in price from an 8".

Used for a dedicated jointer and used or new for a J/P combo. The latter is often more cost effective to have wide capacities for both flattening and thicknessing.

[Thomas Crawford]

Those used old iron machines are ridiculously heavy. I'm not sure how I could get something like that moved. Also are the $200 VFD's good enough for these machines?

[Will Boulware]

Those used old iron machines are ridiculously heavy. I'm not sure how I could get something like that moved. Also are the $200 VFD's good enough for these machines?

Thomas, they look impossible to move, and no, you're not going to get one down your basement stairs, but for the most part if you're working in a garage or a street-level shop, they're not bad to handle. The trick is finding ways to never have to pick them up. Get a set of 4x4 skids under a machine base and it will roll anywhere you want on a couple of black iron pipes. I didn't believe this until I tried it with a 20" delta bandsaw. My wife rolled my 24" jointer into the garage.

As to your VFD question, I've got a TECO FM50 on my bandsaw and it works fine. Their adequacy depends on the motor and the machine type. A 3 hp table saw would work fine on a 3 hp TECO (and there's plenty of documentation showing 5hp saws running on 3hp VFD's, YMMV), but a 7.5hp jointer is obviously not going to play ball. Do your homework and 3 phase conversion is nothing to be afraid of.

[Ollie McDottie]

Thank you all for this most insightful and enlightening discussion. I learned a lot and appreciated all of the comments. And I was ultimately swayed toward the 12" jointer. Some basic math insofar as cost of tool over lifetime and marginal discrepancy compared to an 8" simplified the choice. Of course, the probability of not knowing what possibilities lay in my future and preferring to be available to avail myself to them further moved me in the direction of going bigger. Many people essentially broke it down to: there have been many times I wished I had a bigger jointer, but never have I bemoaned not having a smaller one.

I wonder how long before I'm thinking, "shoot, should have gotten a 16"? :eek:

Thanks again.

[Mike Kees]

Probably about a week .:D

[Rod Sheridan]

Thank you all for this most insightful and enlightening discussion. I learned a lot and appreciated all of the comments. And I was ultimately swayed toward the 12" jointer. Some basic math insofar as cost of tool over lifetime and marginal discrepancy compared to an 8" simplified the choice. Of course, the probability of not knowing what possibilities lay in my future and preferring to be available to avail myself to them further moved me in the direction of going bigger. Many people essentially broke it down to: there have been many times I wished I had a bigger jointer, but never have I bemoaned not having a smaller one.

I wonder how long before I'm thinking, "shoot, should have gotten a 16"? :eek:



Thanks again.

If I bought a 16" jointer instead of a 12 inch I would need a bigger band saw:rolleyes:.....................regards, Rod.

[Jim Becker]

If I bought a 16" jointer instead of a 12 inch I would need a bigger band saw:rolleyes:.....................regards, Rod.
And the problem with that is what??? :D

[Dave Cav]

I wonder how long before I'm thinking, "shoot, should have gotten a 16"? :eek:
Thanks again.

When I had my 8" jointer I frequently wished I had something bigger. Now that I have a 12" I'm pretty happy with the size and seldom, if ever, wish I had something bigger.

[Mike Kees]

I was looking at a real good 12'' jointer used and the guy wanted $3500 for it,so I looked a little more and found a 16'' Italian made jointer for $2400. That took about a nano second to make that decision,however as rod pointed out since that decision I have added a bigger bandsaw and planer. I am done buying major tools/machines and starting to watch for wood and build way more stuff,seems like the building the shop phase is finally at an end and I am good with that.

[Rod Sheridan]

And the problem with that is what??? :D


Hmmm......................Let me think for a minute.........................Ummmmmmmm.......... ....I don't know:D

[Mike King]

For those wondering about wide lumber, here's Lou Irion's take.

https://irionlumber.com/working-with-wide-and-matched-lumber/

[Doug Dawson]

For those wondering about wide lumber, here's Lou Irion's take.

https://irionlumber.com/working-with-wide-and-matched-lumber/

If wood is going to cup over time (due to changing conditions), it's going to cup twice as much if it's twice as wide. Basic wood technology (see Hoadley e.g.) This puts more stress on the wood, (cracking it perhaps) that can be avoided for almost no esthetic cost by ripping and gluing. Irion's notion that a modern glued ripline joint is not as strong as the wood is hooey. Why he's promoting this point I can only guess.

[Jim Becker]

Doug, while it's true that wood that wants to move is going to move, I agree with Irion with the exception of the glue joint strength point you bring up and there really is an aesthetic cost to ripping and re-gluing...it's very rare that those joints are not going to be visible unless one is working with vertical grain that is pretty darn parallel with the boards on both edges. I much prefer to work with wide lumber and actually seek that out as much as possible.

[Mark e Kessler]

I saw that too on the glue joint, maybe he was just referring to the hide glue thats how it reads at first - a typo perhaps...

"Furthermore, we saw more trouble with the pieces with glued up lumber, probably because the original hide type glues are not as powerful as modern adhesives"



If wood is going to cup over time (due to changing conditions), it's going to cup twice as much if it's twice as wide. Basic wood technology (see Hoadley e.g.) This puts more stress on the wood, (cracking it perhaps) that can be avoided for almost no esthetic cost by ripping and gluing. Irion's notion that a modern glued ripline joint is not as strong as the wood is hooey. Why he's promoting this point I can only guess.

[Doug Dawson]

I saw that too on the glue joint, maybe he was just referring to the hide glue thats how it reads at first - a typo perhaps...

"Furthermore, we saw more trouble with the pieces with glued up lumber, probably because the original hide type glues are not as powerful as modern adhesives"

As he's using it to justify wide boards for use nowadays, and not just talking about the past, I think it's more than a typo.

Note that the "ancient" furniture we see today is the furniture that _survived_. :^) For the average piece going out the door, the "professional" back then likely had the same pressure to streamline his work that he does now.

[Art Mann]

I must confess that I didn't read all the previous posts on this rather simple question but I will tell you why I went from a 6 inch jointer to a 12 inch jointer. For decades, the 6 inch worked okay. After I got a CNC router, I began carving plaques, trivets, signs and other wooden items in some quantities for sale. This requires both flat and uniformly thick material. There are all kinds of time consuming and inaccurate work arounds, but the easiest and most accurate way to achieve that goal is to use a jointer and planer of the necessary width, followed by a drum sander pass or two to improve dimensional precision. My point is that if you don't need a wide jointer then don't buy one but if you do then nothing else will do.

[Randy Heinemann]

I'm just curious . . .How much does a Felder 12" combo jointer/planer with helical heads cost and weigh? I guess I can find the weight online, but sure can't find a price. I purchased an 8" Jet helical head jointer and have owned a 13" Dewalt 735 planer (for years). Together they provide me with sufficient capability to do whatever I need done. If I do encounter a wider board that needs flattening, I have access to at least 2 hardwood suppliers that have equipment. For a nominal price they do what I need done a lot less expensively (given the rarity of this need) than investing in a Felder combo. When I bought my 8" jointer, the prices for the combos available were excessive for my use; not to mention the weight of the combos would have made it extremely difficult to get the machine into my basement shop. So, just curious on the economies these days, especially for a non-production shop.

[Bruno Jean]

Go to the Felder US website and register to see the MSRP price, weight, and everything in term of dimension, features.

If you look for a Hammer machine or a Felder machine that is not option-able such as base RL dust extractors, the price is directly on their US Felder shop web site (including the current discount), no need to register.

You can call Felder in your area to see what are their current promotion for option-able machines

[Mark e Kessler]

last end of year approx pricing with Silent power head. you can get the weight of the web.
Hammer A331 $4090
Hammer A341 $5590
Felder AD531 $6690
Felder AD741 $9675
Felder AD941 $10,500




I'm just curious . . .How much does a Felder 12" combo jointer/planer with helical heads cost and weigh? I guess I can find the weight online, but sure can't find a price. I purchased an 8" Jet helical head jointer and have owned a 13" Dewalt 735 planer (for years). Together they provide me with sufficient capability to do whatever I need done. If I do encounter a wider board that needs flattening, I have access to at least 2 hardwood suppliers that have equipment. For a nominal price they do what I need done a lot less expensively (given the rarity of this need) than investing in a Felder combo. When I bought my 8" jointer, the prices for the combos available were excessive for my use; not to mention the weight of the combos would have made it extremely difficult to get the machine into my basement shop. So, just curious on the economies these days, especially for a non-production shop.

[Bruno Jean]

last end of year approx pricing with Silent power head. you can get the weight of the web.
Hammer A331 $4090
Hammer A341 $5590
Felder AD531 $6690
Felder AD741 $9675
Felder AD941 $10,500

Looks like the same price as end of the year for 2019

[Art Mann]

There are other substantially cheaper alternatives to Hammer or Felder. I own a Jet JP12-HH that works well for me. I had issues to start with but they have been worked out.

[Mark e Kessler]

You are correct, cheaper for sure...



There are other substantially cheaper alternatives to Hammer or Felder. I own a Jet JP12-HH that works well for me. I had issues to start with but they have been worked out.