Tenon saw size?

[Laurent Marshall]

So I recently had a bit of an eye opening experience. I thought I'd been getting along fine with my ryoba and dozuki - until I picked it up a 26in 4.5ppi Disston handsaw (filed rip) at a junk store for $5, and wonder of wonders, it was actually still sharp. It ate through everything from 2x construction lumber to 5/4 hickory like nobody's business (I think it just laughed at the 4/4 white pine...), all with surprising accuracy (and a canyon of a kerf!). With that experience, I decided to try it out on some joinery, and it did surprising well cutting a few bridle joints on a recent project. I spent a little more time cleaning up with the chisel, but I certainly spent less time sawing. I even found it to take less effort to achieve reasonable accuracy with the handsaw than with my Ryoba, which was maybe a bigger surprise, so I don't think I've reached the full potential of this saw yet.

It now seems to me that speed and accuracy are maybe more important than tooth count and kerf size in a lot of general applications. All that got me thinking that maybe I'm at that point in my woodworking hobby career where I should give Western joinery saws a shot. So, I'm looking at picking up a tenon saw to start out with, before getting a carcass saw. I'm not afraid to learn saw sharpening, so I'm considering a kit from Blackburn Tools, which has got me thinking about the 18in vs. 16in option for a tenon saw.

16in seems to be typical for mass-produced tenon saws today (Lie-Nielsen, Veritas), but I've seen references that 18in was a more common choice for professionals back in the heyday of hand tools. After my experience with the big Disston rip saw, I can see how a bigger, faster (but still accurate), saw might make sense for rip cuts in joinery. Is an 18in tenon saw overkill? What size is really best?

Future projects for me might include anything from interior doors, a chest of drawers, a kitchen table, or a set of bedside tables.

Thanks!

[Jim Koepke]

Small saws for small cuts, big saws for big cuts.

If my tenon is on a 1X2, my dovetail saw works fine.

If my tenon is on a 2X4 or bigger, then my 12" or 16" back saw may get the job.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Laurent,

Don't forget your experience with the Disston. A 10 ppi. panel saw makes a very good joinery saw when working on larger joints. Because of the size of workbench joints I use my panel saw much more than the tenon saws. It tends to be faster and just as accurate.

ken

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I agree with Jim and Ken, and I'll add one thing. You'd be surprised how the weight of the brass or steel back of a big tenon saw can affect your ability to saw perfectly straight and square. I find anything over 16 inches to be unwieldy. I suspect you may too, considering the majority of your experience is with lightweight Japanese saws. Unless you're going to build a Roubo workbench and need more than a 4" cut depth, I'd stick with 16" max. Even then, Ken's suggestion is better than a tenon saw longer than 16".

[Laurent Marshall]

First, thanks Stephen, Ken, and Jim for your replies! So that begs the question, what would be the benefit of a very large back saw filed rip, like one of these 16 or 18in tenon saws vs. an 18 or 20in panel saw with 10ppi rip teeth? The panel saw has unlimited depth of cut, and is perfectly capable of good accuracy. Does the equivalent back saw just give you a narrower kerf?

[lowell holmes]

You will want a saw set.

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Neck-SS7-Saw-Tool/dp/B0002YQRZ6?psc=1&SubscriptionId=AKIAIKOHFALUJCKC3KXQ&tag=bestdeal_us_yahoo_desktop_split1-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0002YQRZ6&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

[Laurent Marshall]

As a true woodworker, you need all of the saws you would like to have. You also should accumulate sharpening tools and a saw tooth setting tool.

https://www.best-deal.com/search/lan...w%20set%20tool

I'm all over it :) I live in New England so I've got a soft spot for anything Millers Falls, and ordered a Millers Falls 214 saw set the other day. I haven't decided on a saw vice yet, but will likely go either with a DIY set up to go in the face vise on my bench, or a vintage saw vise.

[Jim Matthews]

My go to backsaw is 14" long, 4" plate depth below the handle.

My favorite starter saw is often sold with a Maple mitering block - brand name "Do-All", good steel for cheap.

Saws longer than 16" can be heavy, and difficult to manage.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I have a big 16" LN thin plate tenon saw. I do not like it, it cuts slowly (probably needs more rake, LN may have relaxed it to reduce the chance of kinking the thin plate) and is liable to drift, and just generally kind of an awkward tool. As western backsaws go, I prefer the smaller old 12" Disston I have. The plate is narrower but still deep enough for most furniture tenons. That's the size I would go with, maybe 14" if you really think you'll be doing a lot of large scale joinery. 16" or 18" is ridiculous in my opinion, I'd rather just use a panel saw if I needed something that large. Looking at the Blackburn page, the 12" carcass saw with a 0.025 plate and 12 ppi rip would be my choice.

I've actually gravitated towards the japanese saws for most of these tasks.

[Mike Allen1010]

First, thanks Stephen, Ken, and Jim for your replies! So that begs the question, what would be the benefit of a very large back saw filed rip, like one of these 16 or 18in tenon saws vs. an 18 or 20in panel saw with 10ppi rip teeth? The panel saw has unlimited depth of cut, and is perfectly capable of good accuracy. Does the equivalent back saw just give you a narrower kerf?

Laurent, really good question – easy answer is you want both of course!

Seriously, for most furniture size joinery I prefer the 14 inch the 16 inch back saw (with steel/brass back) versus a panel saw. For me the weight of the back and the thinner kerf help with accuracy. For sawing tenon cheeks I have 9, 11 and 13 PPI rip saws (I've got a bad saw problem). For most case goods I use the 11 – 13 PPI most often. For most handsaw tasks, I think as your skill improves, you'll be able to use a coarser pitch saw and get faster results that are just as accurate as a finer pitch.

Cheers, Mike

[Derek Cohen]

My favourite saw for furniture tenons is the 14" Gramercy Sash Saw. I believe that this is 13 tpi and a combination filing. It is perfect for medium-sized tenons and used most of the time. I love that it is light and nimble.

https://i.postimg.cc/R0srBKZ3/Tenon-Guide-html-29c40e46.jpg

My other tenon saw is a 16" Wenzloff, which is a beast, but cuts rapidly through medium-larger end grain.

As a reminder, anyone looking for help with sawing tenons might explore the jig I designed here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/TenonGuide.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

The one I have been using for a few years....Disston No. 4, 9ppi, filed rip....14" long. Back is blued steel.
419054
419055
419056
419057

[Laurent Marshall]

Laurent, really good question – easy answer is you want both of course!

Seriously, for most furniture size joinery I prefer the 14 inch the 16 inch back saw (with steel/brass back) versus a panel saw. For me the weight of the back and the thinner kerf help with accuracy. For sawing tenon cheeks I have 9, 11 and 13 PPI rip saws (I've got a bad saw problem). For most case goods I use the 11 – 13 PPI most often. For most handsaw tasks, I think as your skill improves, you'll be able to use a coarser pitch saw and get faster results that are just as accurate as a finer pitch.

Cheers, Mike

Reading your reply and all the others has me leaning toward a 16in tenon saw, probably 11ppi, maybe a little bit finer. A panel saw should do for everything else, esp. based on my experience with the big Disston!

[Pete Taran]

Laurent,

16" is a pretty hefty saw and not that easy to control. I have been collecting backsaws for about 30 years, and I have found precious few 16" back saws. That suggests to me that 16" backsaws were not in demand when people used backsaws for serious day to day work. Most common size is 12" and then 14". I see more 10" backsaws than I do 16". If you need that sort of depth of plate for ripping tenons, then it is the tool for the job, but you should consider that a longer saw is more difficult to control and if you don't need that function, go to the smallest saw you can to get the job done.

Hope this helps.

[Dave Parkis]

Laurent, depending on where in the Northeast you are, you are welcome to come and check out the saws, vises and other stuff I have. I am in Albany, about 5 minutes from exit 2 of I-87. I used to sell here a lot.

[Laurent Marshall]

Laurent, depending on where in the Northeast you are, you are welcome to come and check out the saws, vises and other stuff I have. I am in Albany, about 5 minutes from exit 2 of I-87. I used to sell here a lot.


Thanks for the kind offer Dave! I'd love to take you up on it, bu I live out in southern NH, so Albany is unfortunately a bit too much of a haul.

[Bill Carey]

No expert here, but I can't say enough good things about the Bad Axe 12" hybrid saw I got several months ago. Beautifully made, balanced and I find it to be an easy saw to use. I've used it for dovetails, tenons and half blind dovetails and like it much more than the LN dovetail saw I bought last year. As a matter of fact you may see the LN in the classifieds soon.

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

So is the general consensus that the massive backsaws like the "beast" that is made by badaxe, an 18" Saw with 5" of 0.032" plate under the back just too big and heavy to be properly useful?

Anyone here use the 18" Badaxe backsaws?

Cheers, Dom

[Warren Mickley]

So is the general consensus that the massive backsaws like the "beast" that is made by badaxe, an 18" Saw with 5" of 0.032" plate under the back just too big and heavy to be properly useful?

Anyone here use the 18" Badaxe backsaws?

Cheers, Dom

I would say this large backsaw was designed for people who don't know what they are doing.

I once won a tenon sawing contest using a 16" Badaxe saw and got the saw as a prize. At 4" high, it is a little bulky and wobbly, just not ideal. For any tenon that is large enough that 3" or so is insufficient, we use a ripsaw for cutting the cheeks.

Peter Nicholson, writing in 1812, mentions Tenon saws being 14 to 18 inches long. However, he says that tenon saws are used for crosscutting. For cutting the tenon cheeks, Nicholson says to use a hand saw (26 inches long).

There is a 19" tenon saw in the Seaton chest (1796). It is filed crosscut. The other three back saws in the Seaton chest are file rip. The Sash saw is 14" long with a cutting depth of 2.75 inches.

[Laurent Marshall]

I would say this large backsaw was designed for people who don't know what they are doing.

I once won a tenon sawing contest using a 16" Badaxe saw and got the saw as a prize. At 4" high, it is a little bulky and wobbly, just not ideal. For any tenon that is large enough that 3" or so is insufficient, we use a ripsaw for cutting the cheeks.

Peter Nicholson, writing in 1812, mentions Tenon saws being 14 to 18 inches long. However, he says that tenon saws are used for crosscutting. For cutting the tenon cheeks, Nicholson says to use a hand saw (26 inches long).

There is a 19" tenon saw in the Seaton chest (1796). It is filed crosscut. The other three back saws in the Seaton chest are file rip. The Sash saw is 14" long with a cutting depth of 2.75 inches.

It certainly sound logical to use a smaller back saw for most average sized tenons, and cut the really large or very wide tenons with a panel saw or handsaw. Doing a little digging though, I think this debate has some history! Here's an old thread about a Chris Schwarz piece on this very topic: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?95280-tenon-saw/page2&p=954918

This is likely the article the thread is referencing: https://www.popularwoodworking.com/chris-schwarz-blog/woodworking-in-america-the-saws-you-need/

Here's another Schwarz piece on the tenon saw from the Seaton chest: https://www.popularwoodworking.com/chris-schwarz-blog/the-most-enormous-tenon-saw/

I'm sure I could go find some other well known authors with conflicting thoughts on the right size for a tenon saw (I believe I've seen a post or two from Joel on the Tools for Working Wood blog praising smaller tenon saws). It's looking to me like this question comes down to personal preference, experiences, and anecdotal evidence, and not really that much to do with what work is actually done with the saws. Schwarz likes a big tenon saw for general furniture work, but he might be an outlier. With all that in mind, I guess I can't really be sure if I'll prefer a larger tenon saw, or a smaller sash saw until I spend some time with a few different saws!

[Kurtis Johnson]

Laurent,

16" is a pretty hefty saw and not that easy to control. I have been collecting backsaws for about 30 years, and I have found precious few 16" back saws. That suggests to me that 16" backsaws were not in demand when people used backsaws for serious day to day work. Most common size is 12" and then 14". I see more 10" backsaws than I do 16". If you need that sort of depth of plate for ripping tenons, then it is the tool for the job, but you should consider that a longer saw is more difficult to control and if you don't need that function, go to the smallest saw you can to get the job done.

Hope this helps.

Interesting stuff, Pete. I always enjoy your well-seasoned opinion on saws. I recall years ago reading review of one of the contemporary large back saws, perhaps a sash saw, which seemed to me to promote it’s size and heft for improved self registration of the saw during a cut. While I do appreciate a progressive attitude, it does beg the question why such an oversized saw shows up only now in history if truly an improvement over traditional back saw dimensions.

[Stewie Simpson]

While I do appreciate a progressive attitude, it does beg the question why such an oversized saw shows up only now in history if truly an improvement over traditional back saw dimensions.

Kurtis; view the wide range in back saw lengths.

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/backsawpage.html

[Warren Mickley]

It certainly sound logical to use a smaller back saw for most average sized tenons, and cut the really large or very wide tenons with a panel saw or handsaw. Doing a little digging though, I think this debate has some history! Here's an old thread about a Chris Schwarz piece on this very topic: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?95280-tenon-saw/page2&p=954918

This is likely the article the thread is referencing: https://www.popularwoodworking.com/chris-schwarz-blog/woodworking-in-america-the-saws-you-need/

Here's another Schwarz piece on the tenon saw from the Seaton chest: https://www.popularwoodworking.com/chris-schwarz-blog/the-most-enormous-tenon-saw/

I'm sure I could go find some other well known authors with conflicting thoughts on the right size for a tenon saw (I believe I've seen a post or two from Joel on the Tools for Working Wood blog praising smaller tenon saws). It's looking to me like this question comes down to personal preference, experiences, and anecdotal evidence, and not really that much to do with what work is actually done with the saws. Schwarz likes a big tenon saw for general furniture work, but he might be an outlier. With all that in mind, I guess I can't really be sure if I'll prefer a larger tenon saw, or a smaller sash saw until I spend some time with a few different saws!

Personal preference is important, but the people you reference do not have a wealth of experience. Chris Schwarz was apparently not aware that the tenon saw in the Seaton Chest was filed crosscut. That information was conveyed in Gaynor's drawings notes in the 2nd edition of the Seaton book (2013). The article you mentioned was written 2006. He was apparently not aware that Nicholson, who was a cabinetmaker in London in the 18th century, said the tenon saw was used for cross cutting and that a hand saw, not a tenon saw, was used for tenon cheeks.

In a 2013 blog, Schwarz says he sucks at hand mortising. Probably part of the problem is lack of experience and lack of training.

[lowell holmes]

I have dovetail and tenon saws, but I also have a Disston handsaw that had a broken saw plate, so I squared the saw plate, sharpened and set the teeth. I performs quite will for cutting tenons in a 2x4.
I also have a D12 10 pt saw cross cut that cuts really nice. Made a curly maple handle for it and bought shiny brass saw nuts. I recommend you buy a saw set.

You can make paper patterns for various tpi, attach it with double sticky tape and file new teeth.
Make a wooden block to clamp a mill file to the saw plate. You can clamp a thin wooden block to the file so you can
file the saw square and level.

Try it on an old junker.

[Derek Cohen]

So is the general consensus that the massive backsaws like the "beast" that is made by badaxe, an 18" Saw with 5" of 0.032" plate under the back just too big and heavy to be properly useful?

Anyone here use the 18" Badaxe backsaws?

Cheers, Dom

I wrote at the beginning of the thread that my go-to backsaw for tenons is a 14” Gramercy sash saw. This is 13 tpi, which makes it closer to a large dovetail saw. A decade ago, when CS wrote about 16” and 18” tenon saws, I was influenced to purchase a custom 16” by Mike Wenzloff. I used it for a few years, and can attest that it certainly cut well. A beautiful saw in many ways. However, I found it cumbersome for the largely 1” long x 2” wide cheeks that form the majority of frame tenons in furniture I build. It cut very fast with its 10 tpi, but the downside to the larger teeth it that they are harder to start, and this can penalise one if there is any inaccuracy. I shudder to imagine what an 18” plate will feel like.

In the years before, my favourite tenon saw was a 14” brass back Nurse, which I had picked up at a swap meet. The extra 2” less in length, along with the narrower plate, made a significant difference in control. I purchased the 14” Gramercy Sash saw in 2013, when I visited Joel at TFWW in Brooklyn. It it night-and-day. This saw feels closer in weight to the 12” brass back Disston #5 I have. The Gramercy is light. And although 13 tpi, it cuts as fast as I need it to saw. There is more control, and less fatigue. Joint-making is just sawing to a line as accurately as possible. No one asks if you performed this 0.5ms faster. All they do is look at the finished joint.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kurtis Johnson]

Stewie, yeah, I’d like to distance myself from my last comment, but too it’s late, LOL! I read that Benjamin’s Seaton list included tenon saws 16” to 19” long! I don’t even own a decent joinery back saw so I shouldn’t even be discussing them.

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

I wrote at the beginning of the thread that my go-to backsaw for tenons is a 14” Gramercy sash saw. This is 13 tpi, which makes it closer to a large dovetail saw. A decade ago, when CS wrote about 16” and 18” tenon saws, I was influenced to purchase a custom 16” by Mike Wenzloff. I used it for a few years, and can attest that it certainly cut well. A beautiful saw in many ways. However, I found it cumbersome for the largely 1” long x 2” wide cheeks that form the majority of frame tenons in furniture I build. It cut very fast with its 10 tpi, but the downside to the larger teeth it that they are harder to start, and this can penalise one if there is any inaccuracy. I shudder to imagine what an 18” plate will feel like.

In the years before, my favourite tenon saw was a 14” brass back Nurse, which I had picked up at a swap meet. The extra 2” less in length, along with the narrower plate, made a significant difference in control. I purchased the 14” Gramercy Sash saw in 2013, when I visited Joel at TFWW in Brooklyn. It it night-and-day. This saw feels closer in weight to the 12” brass back Disston #5 I have. The Gramercy is light. And although 13 tpi, it cuts as fast as I need it to saw. There is more control, and less fatigue. Joint-making is just sawing to a line as accurately as possible. No one asks if you performed this 0.5ms faster. All they do is look at the finished joint.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I have a Lie Nielsen 16" tenon saw but haven't really used it much - it's the thicker plate 0.032" version with about 0.004" of set and 4" plate and I don't really get along with it. It also has a very steep rake and is hard to start. I prefer the 14" Badaxe Sash I had made with a 0.02" plate, 3" plate, 13ppi and slightly relaxed rake. For large tenons (5" wide or larger) I generally use my bandsaw, or Japanese Ryoba, or for large stuff like 8" or 10" wide timber frame stuff I use a handsaw.

I do love my thinner plate tenon/dovetail saws with my favourite being my two dovetail saws with 0.015" plates. I suspect I wouldn't love a heavy 18" backsaw, but some part of me really wants to try!

Cheers, Dom