How to price kitchen cabinet build

[Charles Grauer]

Have a hint I may have a chance to build a set kitchen cabinets for a remodel. How do you price them, I want to have pricIng ideas before so I don’t get stuck. So much for the materials then a factor for labor based on the price of material. Or is there some sort of guide line (Rule of thumb). no sure what sort they will want, it’s in a arts and craft era house but that doesn’t mean they will go with that style of cabinets. I’ve built cabinets but not for hire. Any help would be appreciated. Charles

[John TenEyck]

Back in my corporate days the marketing guys beat it into me head that price has nothing to do with cost; it only has to do with how much someone is willing to pay, and that's true no matter what someone is buying. The hard part of course is figuring how much that is for whatever it is you are selling and some people don't or won't do it. They price things based on time and materials and profit factor. Some do OK that way, but really have no idea if they left a huge amount of money on the table.

My suggestion is to look at where these poeple live, how much houses cost there, what kinds of cars they drive, how their house is furnished inside, etc. You could make the identical set of cabinets for a nice middle class couple living in a middle class tract house, driving a Jeep and a minivan, with two kids in college and a for another couple where one is a Dr. and the other belongs to the tennis club, living in one of the really nice neighborhoods of your city, driving high end European cars with no kids or kids on their own. Would you quote both the same price for the same set of cabinets?

John

[jack duren]

You need to find somebody close to your area who knows the current pricing for cabinetry. Not crazy pricing..

[Patrick Kane]

Prepare to get 300 different answers. I think taking your material costs and multiplying by some factor(usually see 3x) is inaccurate at best. Next method that will be suggested is estimate how many hours you think it will take and multiply by your preferred hourly wage and add your materials. I feel like that is inconsequential. What you really need to do, is price to the market. I would suggest shopping your competition, and bid your job accordingly. If their product is higher quality than yours, then deduct from their price to suit your product. If you are doing something above what they are offering, then add to your price. Once you have the market value, deduct your materials and see what the estimated profit will be. If its acceptable to your efforts, then you move forward. If its not, then charge more and you maybe dont get the job.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with the other responses that this is a difficult question to get a straight answer...for every 10 cabinetmakers, there will be 11 different pricing methodology ideas. :) :D That said, one method that's not uncommon is per lineal foot, but that's really hard to figure out for a one-off type situation based on your own materials and labor, honestly. So I'll also agree with the suggestion to try to get an idea about what general pricing is in your area for the "level of quality" you intend to bid/provide for the opportunity. You'll want to be in the ball-park for sure and you cannot go by just pricing knockdown or box-store products that are factory produced.

[Dave Sabo]

Before you go any further, you MUST lock them down to what they want. There's a big difference in material cost and labor involved between a white melamine euro box with a slab door and no drawers and fully beaded inset cabinet made from select mahogany with a raised panel door. If they're thinking paint, that's another headache.


then a factor for labor based on the price of material.

Already been stated , but let me reiterate: the cost of material has little bearing on the labor needed to produce a finished product.


This will seem like a flippant suggestion but, whatever price you figure out in the end - DOUBLE IT. You might just stand a chance of not losing your shirt.

[Patrick Walsh]

I’m a cabinet maker by trade.

In my area “metropolitan Boston” if using the LF model it is generally speaking $800-$1500 LF.

Some shop will build for that painted and or finished at the mid to top end.then others will hit the top end of the only primed. That would not include install.

Now with that said I have watched time and time again complicated and intricate builds require much more than $1500 LF to build in a business environment with rent, various insurance, payroll, machine maintenance, utilities, house stock blah blah blah.

Your suggestion of arts and crafts conjure up images of ornate qs white ok stain grade work. Now that does no mean it has to be built like furniture but in some ways it can’t just be built like a edge banded full overlay slab style kitchen either.

In a shop/business environment I’d need more than $1500 a LF to produce a true furniture quality kitchen. Not so much for shaker style paint grade five piece doors.

In my own personal shop or on the side with no overhead I could easily work within the $800-$1500 LF baseline. Take into account the $8-1500 baseline is a starting point. Fancy this or fancy that and changes here and changes there are additional to the baseline pricing.

What I do personally is break it down to boxes and or pieces. Determine how many man hours is in each piece. Then I do a takeoff and come up with a materials list down to the last drawer slide and screw. From there I get. Price for finishing. I take All that info and say ok add 20% if it seems responsible as things generally always take longer. Sometimes they don’t and those are the few times a year you win. I always try to account for not winning as I like my work till I’m doing it for free or minimum wage.

Hope that helps. I remember well the first full kitchen I made on my own. Went well but man I didn’t know what I didn’t know.

[Richard Coers]

No faster way to loose your "hiney" that to use someone else's rule of thumb. No two people work at the same rate nor have the same equipment. If you've never built cabinets, I have no idea how you can price them. Best way to make money? Act as a contractor and have another shop build them and you mark it up 10%. Guaranteed money maker then! I remember working for a dollar an hour way too many times starting out. A kitchen is an easy way to loose money. They take up so much space, you are constantly shifting material and assembled cabinets around. If you have the room to have 20 cabinets sit around while you make doors and drawers, that's not an issue. I never did in my little shop until I went pro. Then there is the dreaded deadline. Folks get real cranky when their kitchen is a bucket of water and a hot plate. They hate delays!

[Joe Hendershott]

I’m a cabinet maker by trade.

In my area “metropolitan Boston” if using the LF model it is generally speaking $800-$1500 LF.

Some shop will build for that painted and or finished at the mid to top end.then others will hit the top end of the only primed. That would not include install.

Now with that said I have watched time and time again complicated and intricate builds require much more than $1500 LF to build in a business environment with rent, various insurance, payroll, machine maintenance, utilities, house stock blah blah blah.

Your suggestion of arts and crafts conjure up images of ornate qs white ok stain grade work. Now that does no mean it has to be built like furniture but in some ways it can’t just be built like a edge banded full overlay slab style kitchen either.

In a shop/business environment I’d need more than $1500 a LF to produce a true furniture quality kitchen. Not so much for shaker style paint grade five piece doors.

In my own personal shop or on the side with no overhead I could easily work within the $800-$1500 LF baseline. Take into account the $8-1500 baseline is a starting point. Fancy this or fancy that and changes here and changes there are additional to the baseline pricing.

What I do personally is break it down to boxes and or pieces. Determine how many man hours is in each piece. Then I do a takeoff and come up with a materials list down to the last drawer slide and screw. From there I get. Price for finishing. I take All that info and say ok add 20% if it seems responsible as things generally always take longer. Sometimes they don’t and those are the few times a year you win. I always try to account for not winning as I like my work till I’m doing it for free or minimum wage.

Hope that helps. I remember well the first full kitchen I made on my own. Went well but man I didn’t know what I didn’t know.
Thanks for detailing how you do it- good useful info for a lot of us.

[jack duren]

$800-1500 is way out there...

I'm in the Midwest ..way off...

I think I'll stay out of this one...

[Tom M King]

Find out exactly what they want. If they don't know, and just wave their hands around in the air, forget that job.

Find out what the exact same thing would cost in your area. Offer to build them for the same price. You're not likely to be as efficient as the experienced pros, but it will be a good first test to see if doing such jobs is worth your time.

If you're working to do someone a favor, none of this matters anyway. If you want to have something left over when you get finished, and walk away with the check, you can't be doing people favors.

[Edward Dyas]

Have a hint I may have a chance to build a set kitchen cabinets for a remodel. How do you price them, I want to have pricIng ideas before so I don’t get stuck. So much for the materials then a factor for labor based on the price of material. Or is there some sort of guide line (Rule of thumb). no sure what sort they will want, it’s in a arts and craft era house but that doesn’t mean they will go with that style of cabinets. I’ve built cabinets but not for hire. Any help would be appreciated. CharlesHard to say without knowing the kind of cabinets you intend to bid on. Then prices vary a lot around the country. If you are looking to just make general cabinets you might check the prices at your local box store. That should put you somewhere in the ballpark. Chances are your customer has been looking at box store cabinets already.

[Patrick Walsh]

As in way off high or way off low.

That’s just what is is here.

I don’t make rules.

Interesting to hear what is way off.

I know one architect we build for uses this Amish guy in the middle of the country. I have been told some of his prices for very specific pieces. I am always left thinking I could barely purchase the materials for that much.

Boston is a very very expensive place to live and do business.


$800-1500 is way out there...

I'm in the Midwest ..way off...

I think I'll stay out of this one...

[Jared Sankovich]

Roughly 1000/lf here for mid grade (1" doors, beaded, inset, 52-54" tall x 15" deep uppers) with end panels and painted.

This assumes 1/4 of it is island w/o uppers.

Individual boxes with individual face frames.

[Edwin Santos]

Back in my corporate days the marketing guys beat it into me head that price has nothing to do with cost; it only has to do with how much someone is willing to pay, and that's true no matter what someone is buying. The hard part of course is figuring how much that is for whatever it is you are selling and some people don't or won't do it. They price things based on time and materials and profit factor. Some do OK that way, but really have no idea if they left a huge amount of money on the table.


John

Not necessarily disagreeing with John, but as a former cost accountant, I think it important for you to at least have a handle on your own costs.
Even if this is not the primary basis for your pricing to your customer, it is still important to know whether it is worth your time and what your costs of materials, overhead and time might be. And don't forget the cost of consumables and supplies. Materials is much more than just wood and hardware. Budgeting a time line and tracking your hours is quite important also. I feel the cost of raw materials is generally the cost and not subject to much variation. On the other hand, the contractor's operating habits and conditions can be night and day between one and another.

I once knew a commercial general contractor who was always quite competitive in the bidding arena and seemed to be consistently successful.
One time he told me he could not build a building to spec any cheaper than anyone else and he did not build using barefoot high risk subcontractors either. All his subs were well established companies.

So how did he do it? He told me there were two secrets to his success; one was compressing the job timeline using a very disciplined culture of schedule creation, tracking, monitoring down to the day. This reduced his general conditions all other things being equal and sometimes made him the choice if not low, because the more sophisticated customer was considering the reduced carrying cost of getting their building into operation sooner.
Second secret - paying all subs on time and never hanging up anyone's retainage. The subs would always sharpen their pencil a little more for him knowing they'd get paid and paid promptly.
I don't know if any of this is helpful, but it makes a good story.

[Patrick Walsh]

Yes I failed to mention my LF price is uppers and lowers.

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Above paint grade pantry represents that price range in my area well.

The stain grade island above not so much it I’m pretty sure in the scope of a project with both stain and paint grade parts it gets pumped in. My opinion is it shouldn’t and my boss closing the doors of his shop because he can’t make money is all the prof I need.

The bellow kitchen or project imop can’t be produced for $1500 LF...

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Roughly 1000/lf here for mid grade (1" doors, beaded, inset, 52-54" tall x 15" deep uppers) with end panels and painted.

This assumes 1/4 of it is island w/o uppers.

Individual boxes with individual face frames.

[Tom M King]

I'm truly thankful that I have never had to spend any time giving, or even thinking about estimates, or dealing with deadlines. When I was building new stuff for a living, I built a house, and sold it. That way, I only had to please myself, and never figured out what it cost to build anything, but by building it. I always built the cabinets too, but have absolutely no idea how much they cost, or what percentage of the house cost they were. Good luck to anyone that has to please other people, and to a price.

[Richard Coers]

A $700 range per foot is a wide range. Hard to think about something on the cabinet nearly costing twice as much as the low end option. The Amish are very hard to compete against. Often they buy lumber from a family member, and send the cabinets to another family member to be finished. I do admire their independence, their work ethic, and really admire their farms. The farms are like all farms were in 1950s. Instead of the bulldozed hay barns and little sheds of todays corporate farm with gigantic steel sheds with renters in the old farmstead homes.

[Patrick Walsh]

Easy build

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Less easy

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Also easy but slower a bit slower

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Slow

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That’s the 700 difference. Pretty easy to see imop but that just me.

In no way am I being argumentative, just sharing my perspective..


A $700 range per foot is a wide range. Hard to think about something on the cabinet nearly costing twice as much as the low end option. The Amish are very hard to compete against. Often they buy lumber from a family member, and send the cabinets to another family member to be finished. I do admire their independence, their work ethic, and really admire their farms. The farms are like all farms were in 1950s. Instead of the bulldozed hay barns and little sheds of todays corporate farm with gigantic steel sheds with renters in the old farmstead homes.

[Darcy Warner]

As in way off high or way off low.

That’s just what is is here.

I don’t make rules.

Interesting to hear what is way off.

I know one architect we build for uses this Amish guy in the middle of the country. I have been told some of his prices for very specific pieces. I am always left thinking I could barely purchase the materials for that much.

Boston is a very very expensive place to live and do business.

Don't even try to figure out why the Amish charge what they do. I live in the middle of Amish country, best to just not try and compete.

[Patrick Walsh]

I agree Darcy.

I also agree with whomever for the most part suggested figure out what it takes “you” to produce said product and charge that.

Otherwise it’s a failing business model and you’d might as well quit before you even get started. I just spent 3 years “well I’m still working for a couple more months” working for a guy I was telling up and down weekly he was not charging enough and his business would ultimately fail. He always came back with that’s the market value and I know the market value and that’s all I can charge. This is our demographic blah blah blah. That may be true but when the average home price of said kitchen is 3-5 million dollars I don’t have much understanding or empathy for those squeezing little guys trying to feed their family’s.

I always found his rational as suspect knowing that if a builder or homeowner gets a quote from three cabinet shops one will come in at 60k another 90k then one at 160k all for the same exact project. This has been a fact in both my time building custom homes to now building custom cabinetry.

That’s just the way the cabinet business is at least in my area.

My point is it cost what it cost the individual and or specific shop to produce and turn a profit or just don’t do it as sooner or later it won’t be your to choose as you’ll just sink..

o
Don't even try to figure out why the Amish charge what they do. I live in the middle of Amish country, best to just not try and compete.

[jack duren]

The AMISH are actually buying CNC's now here in midwest....

[Jared Sankovich]

The amish where im originally from in Pennsylvania are about 500/lf for beaded inset with 3/4" doors and mortised and tenond face frames. No price difference for paint vs stain grade or any custom depth or height beyond normal

[Patrick Walsh]

Jesus,

Not a chance lol....

Either I’m slow, they are lightning fast or the price of shop space, utilities, and labor are just not even comparable here in Boston.

For instance I’m in the market for a new job and I will not accept anything less than $35hr health coverage fully paid by my employer and 7-10 paid holidays and 3-4 weeks of vacation often two years.

Factor in what it cost a employer to in addition to the $35 hr to pay me and no way they can charge $500 LF.

And I’m not unique. Anyone reliable with any amount of talent would demand the same wages.

Just recently I watched a program that made clear Boston and metropolitan Boston are now more expensive to live than even NYC. They said the only place more expensive right now is San Francisco.

I believe it. My residential electric bill is $300 a month alone.


The amish where im originally from in Pennsylvania are about 500/lf for beaded inset with 3/4" doors and mortised and tenond face frames. No price difference for paint vs stain grade or any custom depth or height beyond normal

[Mark Bolton]

One of the more refreshing pricing threads Ive read. At least there is a notion of gathering YOUR material expenses, tallying the time it will take YOUR shop to build them, and pricing accordingly. Pricing to the market is delusional in that if your customer is shopping for cabs at the home center and that "is" your local market, and your shoving material across a table saw, using a jointer, router table, you are dead. The only thing investigating your "market" does is tell you whether you should go find another job, or if you have a slight chance. If your lucky enough to be in Tom's world of dealing with clients that trust you to build anything at any cost without any form of budget or concept then this post wouldnt even exist.

Coming from 30 years of residential construction (which I have run from like a house on fire), the advice to very quickly, surgically, and firmly, beat it out of your customer as to what exactly they have in mind, and moreso what is a go/no go budget is your number one goal out of the gate. Do not put a single pencil to paper or a pixel on the screen until you have that information. And even after that proceed very cautiously until you are locked on contract and deposit for at least some portion of the project that covers your design time.

If they come back with an insane low factory number from a home center or cab design shop that is feeding factory cabs your probably sunk and best to bail. If they are however entertaining a reasonable budget, have seen some things that interest them but nothing that is exactly what they feel they want, and moreso see a direct and clear value in the quality and flexibility of design your shop can provide, then you have a chance. But still get on contract early and dont invest a ton of time without doing so.

If you were running even modest CNC, semi/small-ish production, you can get creative in chasing some of the factory cab numbers with modest bumps in quality that people appreciated.

Dont get me started on the Amish. I have had posts deleted here numerous times for reasons I will never understand other than the mod's are on the Amish mafia payroll. It is a completely unfair, unjust, and an utter scam on our system. The quality will range from good to complete junk all wrapped in a flagrant lie of bonnets, beards, and suspenders. But people eat it up. I feel for anyone in the heart of that territory as its a terrible thing out on the fringes.

[Mark Bolton]

and labor are just not even comparable here in Boston.

There in lies the rub. Free/slave labor, no workers comp, no insurance. Then you add in miles of other little gains along the way and they can operate a facility with dozens or hundreds of people for pennies on the dollar compared to legitimate operations. Or I guess I should say operations that are not afforded the same exemptions.

My philosophy on this is when you move into the supply side of manufacturing you operate on the level playing field we all do regardless of your personal issues. Whether you self insure or not, your still on the field.

We unfortunately are still in a time where that is not enforceable.

What should however be completely enforceable by the FTC and others is completely deceptive advertising and pursuit of poor workmanship. Perhaps the consumer will come around at some point but its unlikely if the prices are kept so low. Locally many have been burned with shoddy work but the jobs are all cash basis and most people simply dont pursue going after them.

[Jared Sankovich]

The small amish shops pay between 12.50 and $17, no vacation or holidays or health ins.

Land is cheap, buildings are cheap utilities are non existent

[Patrick Walsh]

Mark I completely agree with everything you said above.

I also decided to run from the general construction custom home market as imop it’s a failing venture except for those few whom cater to the top 1% and can charge whatever they want. I have worked for a few of these people over the years and it pretty much goes like such. This is how much my crew cost a month and “I think, but not promise” it will generally take this long. The person that goes for this in most cases is a venture capitalist, CFO of a bank or major corporation or someone with family money going back generations. Getting your piece of this market is like hitting the lottery. And even then over my career I have seen the name in this type high end residential construction change on a 10-15 year cycle.

What I want to know is would the Amish take the time to grain match every stick as I am for this qs white oak full overlay kitchen. If so we’ll then I say we are all screwed. The kitchen these are for is a combination of qs white oak island and lowers and painted uppers and fridge box.

I had just under 30 of these qs doors and drawers and end panels to make. Easily from sizing up the sheet stock to an exact size 3/32nd reveals factored in to milling up the oak, laying it all out, not making one wrong cut or it’s all trash and miter wrapping and gluing and sanding I’d say I’m at an average of at least one hour a door and that that’s conservative. Honestly it’s probably more like 2 hrs a door or drawer but the time everything is sanded and ready for stain.

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Nothing special or at all hard but time consuming. The slightest bit of glue left behind spells disaster for finishing and or stain penetration. On wrong cut of the mdf means a new sheet or milling up all matching qs all over again.

Would most shops go to such a length if a mistake was made vrs let it slide I think not.

Business is cutthroat. The trades generally stink. Money is pure evil and the downfall of everything but there’s also very few ways to avoid it all.

I don’t think we are gonna ever regulate corruption on a large or small scale. There will always be people happy to make a better life for themself even if it be on the backs and directly at the expense of the next guy. I don’t like and that’s why I just work for someone. I’m not willing to join in.

[Patrick Walsh]

We are talking two different world.

Here you can be a greater at Walmart and have a better job. It’s pretty sad that in America a person willing to work and with a honed hard earned vocation can’t do better than some guy who is willing to and knows well how to play the system and live off the dole....


The small amish shops pay between 12.50 and $17, no vacation or holidays or health ins.

Land is cheap, buildings are cheap utilities are non existent

[jack duren]

We are talking two different world.

Here you can be a greater at Walmart and have a better job. It’s pretty sad that in America a person willing to work and with a honed hard earned vocation can’t do better than some guy who is willing to and knows well how to play the system and live off the dole....

KC pays the same for cabinet makers...

[Mark Bolton]

The small amish shops pay between 12.50 and $17, no vacation or holidays or health ins.

Land is cheap, buildings are cheap utilities are non existent

No vacation time, holidays, and health insurance, is the way of the corporate world now. Thats nothing new to the Amish. Walmart has been holding its employees at just sub-benefits for years to keep costs down and line the pockets at the top. The real issue with the Amish is no comp, no unemployment, G/L, and so on. If I could get out from under those expenses I could cut numbers quite a bit.

Then you take into account what is in my opinion flagrant and conscious misleading and false advertising to the consumer (which other companies have been prosecuted for) and it gets worse. Heck, look back and see what Walmart got socked with when they were caught with sweatshops in NYC stitching "MADE IN THE USA" labels into their chinese clothing? How quickly the masses forget when they are kept drunk on cheap crap at the expense of other nations.

[Mark Bolton]

utilities are non existent

This one is one that I have long wondered if it may be the achilles heel. The Amish are paying obscenely high costs for electricity. These plants are powered by massive diesel generators sitting outside which typically run about 10X the cost of grid power on the watt for generation. Its a horrifically expense way to get electric.

My guess is there is a heavy duty conversation going on in "the community" with regards to how they can yet again bend their beliefs to allow grid connection. They are already there with cell phones, cash registers, retail shop lighting, coffee makers, on and on. The day will come when there will be a new found clause in the scripture that somehow conveniently allows 1000 amps of three phase to be piped into a pole barn that assembles furniture parts made in some eastern block nation and is shipped here, glued together, dunked in a coat of gloss polly, and smacked with an "Amish Made" sticker. Again. FTC.

[Jared Sankovich]

We are talking two different world.

Here you can be a greater at Walmart and have a better job. It’s pretty sad that in America a person willing to work and with a honed hard earned vocation can’t do better than some guy who is willing to and knows well how to play the system and live off the dole....

Vastly different places..
Median household income is 47k, per capita is 23k. Houses on average are 100k but 35k for a house in the city is more than their worth. The joke growing up was your car was worth more than your house

[Jared Sankovich]

This one is one that I have long wondered if it may be the achilles heel. The Amish are paying obscenely high costs for electricity. These plants are powered by massive diesel generators sitting outside which typically run about 10X the cost of grid power on the watt for generation. Its a horrifically expense way to get electric.

My guess is there is a heavy duty conversation going on in "the community" with regards to how they can yet again bend their beliefs to allow grid connection. They are already there with cell phones, cash registers, retail shop lighting, coffee makers, on and on. The day will come when there will be a new found clause in the scripture that somehow conveniently allows 1000 amps of three phase to be piped into a pole barn that assembles furniture parts made in some eastern block nation and is shipped here, glued together, dunked in a coat of gloss polly, and smacked with an "Amish Made" sticker. Again. FTC.

Lol the ones grew up around made everything in house, no eastern bloc assembly. They also run hydraulic motors instead of generating electric off the diesel engines. Not really sure if that's better or worse.

At least in that area there's no lighting, no cash register..etc. they do have cell phones but cant keep them in the house. Each community / church / bishop has different rules though.

I never saw a black top buggy until i went east.. different sect different rules.

[Richard Coers]

This one is one that I have long wondered if it may be the achilles heel. The Amish are paying obscenely high costs for electricity. These plants are powered by massive diesel generators sitting outside which typically run about 10X the cost of grid power on the watt for generation. Its a horrifically expense way to get electric.

My guess is there is a heavy duty conversation going on in "the community" with regards to how they can yet again bend their beliefs to allow grid connection. They are already there with cell phones, cash registers, retail shop lighting, coffee makers, on and on. The day will come when there will be a new found clause in the scripture that somehow conveniently allows 1000 amps of three phase to be piped into a pole barn that assembles furniture parts made in some eastern block nation and is shipped here, glued together, dunked in a coat of gloss polly, and smacked with an "Amish Made" sticker. Again. FTC.

Have you studied the Amish doctrine Mark? My understanding is that their main belief is not to be directly connected to the outside world. There are many different branches of the religion, even Mennonites who are constantly being confused with Amish. No idea how you are aware of them discussing "bending their beliefs", nor the extent of what appliances they use. I also don't understand your condescending attitude towards them, but I'm sure they have suffered that kind of attitude often.

[Darcy Warner]

The AMISH are actually buying CNC's now here in midwest....

I have been in several that were state of the art.

Around here, some have pole power, some run off a generator, combination of hydraulic drives, air, or line shafts. Interesting how each church allows something different.

[Darcy Warner]

Have you studied the Amish doctrine Mark? My understanding is that their main belief is not to be directly connected to the outside world. There are many different branches of the religion, even Mennonites who are constantly being confused with Amish. No idea how you are aware of them discussing "bending their beliefs", nor the extent of what appliances they use. I also don't understand your condescending attitude towards them, but I'm sure they have suffered that kind of attitude often.

They almost all have smart phones, cracks me up seeing them charge them with solar.

[johnny means]

Glad I wasn't the only one noticing the ugly turn this conversation was taking.

[Doug Dawson]

Glad I wasn't the only one noticing the ugly turn this conversation was taking.

Yes. Isolation from the collective good is the root of so many of our problems.

[Patrick Walsh]

All I said was “this Amish guy” builds stuff for the same price I can buy the materials.

My bad I guess. Being the internet I should know better.

Honestly I can understand both sides.

As a human among humans I am fully sold on the simple fact that “we all bend our beliefs to suit our needs” some of us more than others but you know we all do it. If you say you don’t your clearly not capable of really being honest with yourself.

But you know, what Walmart has been doing for a long long time now coupled with corporate America bringing the same I don’t know tone/mood/reality to what where once very very desirable respectable jobs is nothing short of pathetic. Well whats pathetic is that our government not only in many ways supports and condones passing these loopholes into laws that allow for what has happened to the working people of America.

But worse once these loopholes are identified our dam Congress people can’t be held accountable to anything more than protect the trajectory of their own carriers and livelihoods. So much for public servants.

What we have is a universal “human” problem that one group or simply the Amish can not be held responsible for or made a example of at the expense of a much larger problem within the makeup of our so called democracy and society as a whole.

Take it one step further and we can’t even blame or hold our dam Congress people accountable as we as citizens don’t stand up and force them to be accountable and represent us. We are all part of this problem as we all keep going along with it looking out for number one doing nothing about changing any of it outside most of our own family units.

Ok I’m done but I do understand both sides. But I’m absolutely never going to make a mockery or example of any one group of people. Imop that in there lies the problem within this problem. We are all so good at taking care of ourselves and pointing fingers at others.

Us humans are just so darn impressive.

Like many I don’t like any of this being a working. I’ve been fighting since my first job in the trades “16” to be compensAted a fair living wage fully under the belief that my skill set is as worthy of a decent life as anyone doing anything looking to make ends meet.

[Edwin Santos]

Glad I wasn't the only one noticing the ugly turn this conversation was taking.

Yes, it seems the rare discussion that can be complete without the need to identify a villain. Too bad, and usually unnecessary.

[jack duren]

I have been in several that were state of the art.

Around here, some have pole power, some run off a generator, combination of hydraulic drives, air, or line shafts. Interesting how each church allows something different.

They take technology a little at a time. I find it interesting...