Newbie Questions

[Lisa Starr]

Hi all, I'm a long time woodworker, but just getting ready to try my hand at turning. I'm being given an older benchtop lathe with tools etc, but won't know anything about them until I get it on Saturday. I've been watching lots of videos, but that has generated questions I'm hoping you can help with.

1) I'm not particularly interested in learning to sharpen on a grinder (that I don't own, yet). Is there an alternative method I can use while getting my feet wet?

2) If the replaceable insert tools are as great as the manufacturers want you to believe, why don't I see any of the "experts" using them?

3) If I like turning, my primary objective is to be able to turn legs for furniture projects. Does that change the answers to #1 or #2 above?

Thanks for any help you can give me. :confused:

[richard shelby]

Lisa,
Cingratulations and welcome to your new addiction. Re: your questions
1) Lathe tools are probably high speed steel are even harder steel. Don't even try to use a file. You might be able to sharpen some of your tools with a flat diamond hone. You can also get diamond hones with curved a cross-section for gouges, etc.
2) I use carbide insert tools (Easywood) every day, and they are useful for roughing turnings, and Especially usefull for someone like yourself who doesn't have a grinder. The downside for carbide tools is they don't leave a finished surface, and you will have to sand the piece much more. Razor sharp gouges and scrapers, not so much.
3) For spindles, the same effects apply. Depending on how intricate the table legs are, sanding may be more difficult getting in between small coves and beads.

Get a grinder!
My $.02

[John K Jordan]

Hi Lisa.

Best thing you can do is find a woodturning club and a mentor. You can search for AAW club locations here: https://www.woodturner.org/page/Chapters

There are a lot of opinions out there and youtube videos are not always the best source of information. An experienced turner can save you a huge amount of time and minimize detours down non-productive paths.

Everyone will have there own opinion but here is mine, based on almost 20 years of turning. If you don't want to get started with sharpening yet, there are two good methods and one I don't like.

- One method is to get someone to sharpen your tools for a while - this may cost a token amount or a club member/mentor may do it for free (if you lived closer I'd do it). When I started turning, that's what I did - took tools to a guy at the local woodcraft store. But soon I got my own sharpening equipment and learned to sharpen better than they could - it's not all that hard once you learn how. Or as suggested below, you may be able to use another turner's sharpening equipment at first. There is an old saying that has a lot of truth: if you can't sharpen, you can't turn!

- A second method is to invest in one or two of the "good" carbide tools, those with razor sharp edges with replaceable cutters that never need sharpening. They are not cheap but will last forever. I use all sorts of tools including a bunch of these - the go-to brand is Hunter: http://huntertoolsystems.com/ One of the Osprey or Hercules will let you turn almost anything. Unlike some other types of carbide tools, these can be used both in scraping mode and a cutting mode. I can hand one to a beginning student and see immediate success. I also use them effectively on many types of turnings. This girl made her first real project after one introductory lesson, a drumstick made from lignum vitae, a very hard wood. She used a skew and a 3/8" Hunter Hercules tool:
418256
This young lady used a Hunter Hercules tool for almost all of this, also her first real project. It's not easy, I was nervous, but she aced it!
418257 418258
You can call Mike Hunter or I'd be glad to give you info on the tradeoffs of the various Hunter tools - I think I have at least one of all he makes.

- I strongly discourage another method - the flat-topped carbide tools with inserts, as you mentioned. I tried some of these years ago and very quickly abandoned them. They have several advantages - they never need sharpening and a beginner can produce something almost immediately. However, some fall into the trap of relying on them and never learn the fine tool control that will let them turn anything. At the various clubs I visit when doing turning demos I see a lot of work that is, shall I say, less than professional. When talking with them, many of the turners are using these carbide tools. They are certainly having fun and making things but chances are they will never progress to the level of someone who has learned with "traditional" tools. One big problem is they are primarily used in a scraping mode which can produce a lot of tearout which may require massive sanding to correct. In contrast, a good finish cut with a sharp gouge can leave a surface that needs very little sanding and that with fine paper. There is a new generation of these tools now that appear to be better, but still, my advice is to learn to turn with the traditional tools. Go to a turning symposium and watch the world-class experts and see what kind of tools they are using! As you mentioned, none are using the tools! I know many people will disagree with me on this.

Just to be clear, the Hunter tools also have replaceable "inserts" but these are razor sharp cutting tools, an entirely different class. If you are a video watcher, look up some of John Lucas's videos on the Hunter tools. Or make a road trip to TN and we can spend a day in the shop and I can show you some things. I have people come often, a bandsaw class yesterday ended with one gentleman making plans to come back shortly for day sharpening and turning lessons.

Your objectives can be very easily met with traditional tools such as skews and gouges and/or Hunter carbide tools. You can also make legs with the carbide inset tools but with less quality, more sanding, and the resulting compromises on detail.

BTW, setting up with a grinder and jig for sharpening can be relatively painless. There are expensive and cheap options and nearly free options. You don't really need an expensive grinder to sharpen lathe tools. Some of us have extra jigs and things that might be borrowed. If you find a local club, you are likely to find someone close who will even let you come and use her sharpening equipment! Woodturners can be the nicest people! :)

JKJ


Hi all, I'm a long time woodworker, but just getting ready to try my hand at turning. I'm being given an older benchtop lathe with tools etc, but won't know anything about them until I get it on Saturday. I've been watching lots of videos, but that has generated questions I'm hoping you can help with.

1) I'm not particularly interested in learning to sharpen on a grinder (that I don't own, yet). Is there an alternative method I can use while getting my feet wet?

2) If the replaceable insert tools are as great as the manufacturers want you to believe, why don't I see any of the "experts" using them?

3) If I like turning, my primary objective is to be able to turn legs for furniture projects. Does that change the answers to #1 or #2 above?

Thanks for any help you can give me. :confused:

[David Delo]

Lisa,

My advice to you would be to contact Bill Blasic via PM on this site. He's probably less than 20 minutes from you and does classes. He'd get you off to a proper start.

[David Bassett]

... I strongly discourage another method - the flat-topped carbide tools with inserts, as you mentioned. ...

Lisa, I think John covered things better and more thoroughly than I can. On this one point, I think I can offer a little more information. First, I'm going to call these type tools "Easy Wood Tools", I guess there are a lot of clones now, but (the original) EWT are the ones I have experience with and am familiar with.

I have only heard two recommendations for EWT that don't come from someone with a brand affiliation. (I.e. not a commercial.)

One, a perspective I found useful, was a turning instructor who used EWT for his beginning classes. (I've forgotten the name and lost the original reference.) He was ask about teaching more traditional techniques and he said 90% of his students got interested and learned to use the traditional tools (for better quality and more sophisticated detail), but by using EWT 100% of his beginners had a successful first experience. I use my EWT tools for the things I don't do often and therefore haven't mastered. (For anything I've practiced, I can't recommend Thompson tools enough. But that's your next question, coming in a couple months! :) )

The other comes from a group of non-turners. EWT are a consistent theme among folks who need to turn things, but aren't "turners" (and don't have enough interest to invest a little time and practice into doing better.) Best know in this group is probably Chris Schwarz, who seems pretty up front he finds the EWT a great way to get an OK result without really learning what he's doing. (I'm paraphrasing that.) This perspective is very limiting, but if you are really looking only for simple legs....

Oh, with the tools you were given plus any traditional tools you add you need to sharpen. Since these tools will be HSS of some flavor, you really want a grinder. There are a lot of systems out there, many are good and have their strengths and experts that successfully use and recommend them. However, as a (advanced?) beginner myself I'll say get whatever your instructor uses! I don't have a single instructor, but around here 100% of the classes and, I find, 99% of the tutorials & instructions online use a grinder, (usually 8" slow speed), and a One-Way Wolverine sharpening system. I'd flounder trying to translate techniques if I had a different setup. It's a chunk of money up front, but is really a skill that will enhance your experience. (Plus the grinder can be useful for other sharpening tasks, once you've made the investment and it is available.)

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Welcome! And lucky you to be given a lathe and tools. Or unlucky, as turning usually is addictive and you'll need (and I do mean NEED) to buy more tools. As mentioned, the first being a grinder and jigs. But since you've also been given tools, the grinder part is actually relatively cheap. Oh, and lucky to be close to Bill.
My $0.02 on carbides are aligned with most of the above. I have them I use them but I don't really "like" them. They have useful applications. On carbides, IF you're set on getting them there are different grades of carbides, as there are different grades of HSS. As a whole, the aforementioned EWT has "better" carbides than most, so personally I'd invest in them. I have several Hunters, which as mentioned are very different than the flat ones. I do love the Hunters. I have a tool from his first production run of tools.

[Grant Wilkinson]

Lisa: With luck, John Lucas will join this thread. Since you are a long time woodworker, I suspect that you may have a belt sander. If you do, you can use that to sharpen the lathe tools that you will soon have. I believe John successfully rigged up something to do just that.

[Lisa Starr]

Thank you all for the comments so far. I'll positively look up Bill, as you are correct, he would be very close to me. So far, your comments on the "replaceable insert" type tools mimic my initial gut feeling. I do own a belt sander, so I hope John Lucas appears. It would be great if I could "get by" that way for a few weeks while I wrap my head around this whole thing. As I'm very comfortable sharpening chisels and plane irons, I'm sure I'll end up learning to sharpen the tools for turning as well. Please keep the comments coming.

[Paul Williams]

Being comfortable sharpening chisles and plane irons you will have no trouble sharpening lathe tools. The difference is the amount of sharpening required. I am surprized it hasn't already been mentioned.The feet of cut that a lathe tool sees in just a few minutes is more than a chisle sees in it's lifetime. So you will be required to sharpen your tools often, several times during a project. That is the reason you will end up with a mechanized sharpening tool rather than your hand sharpening stones. Good grinders can be had for $100 and used for lots of things in addition to your lathe tools. At some time you will purchase or make a jig to make repeating the same angles easier, but it doesn't have to be right away.

[Eric Danstrom]

Belt Sander works well it's just that you'll use the belts up quickly (higher actual cost compared to a grinding wheel). I used a 1/3hp 3450rpm grinder with a 120grit white abrasive wheel for a few decades before I sprung for a 8" 1800rpm grinder with white wheels. It worked very well.

No matter what method, having a sharpening strategy for turning is critical to success (as is the case for all wood cutting tools). When I'm turning Chechen I need to sharpen my spindle gouge for each 5" handle I make. Once I had my low cost grinder running I started enjoying turning.

[John K Jordan]

Belt Sander works well it's just that you'll use the belts up quickly (higher actual cost compared to a grinding wheel). I used a 1/3hp 3450rpm grinder with a 120grit white abrasive wheel for a few decades before I sprung for a 8" 1800rpm grinder with white wheels. It worked very well.

No matter what method, having a sharpening strategy for turning is critical to success (as is the case for all wood cutting tools). When I'm turning Chechen I need to sharpen my spindle gouge for each 5" handle I make. Once I had my low cost grinder running I started enjoying turning.

I understand some use ceramic belts for sharpening, which last longer.

BTW, another strategy for turning abrasive woods which I've been using for years: I keep six Thompson 3/8" spindle gouges (unhandled), all sharpened identically. When one gets dull I swap it for a fresh one and keep turning. When all get dull or I take a break I stop, setup the jig once on the Tormek, and sharpen all six. Since setting up the jig perfectly takes more time than sharpening a gouge, doing several at once saves a lot of time!

JKJ

[Randy Heinemann]

Don't know what others have said, but I began turning a couple of years ago with the assumption I never wanted to spend the time sharpening steel tools, so I started out with all carbide tools; mostly Easy Wood (although there are many others available). I found it was a great place to start. Carbide insert tools are easy to use and avoid some of the problems that you can get into with steel gouges, etc. So, as a starting point, I would recommend acquiring a couple of carbide tools. Depending on what you plan to turn, a round insert (finisher) and a detailer; maybe a square radius tool also (Easy Wood's is called a rougher although it can also be a good finishing tool). To some degree, the Easy Wood inserts can be renewed when dull by honing the flat side on a diamond plate although this doesn't usually get you the same life and sharpness that you get with a new insert.

After turning for about a year, I invested in a bowl gouge and learned to sharpen on my Tormek (after buying a gouge jig for it) which I had previous owned and never used until the gouge purchase. I have since bought other steel tools, including a 1/2" and 3/8" gouge, some scrapers, and another carbide tools from Hunter Tools.

I have also upgraded my Tormek wheel to a newly offered diamond wheel. With the jig and the diamond wheel I get superb results and the sharp steel gives me much better results with much less sanding (when I'm patient during the turning).

Carbide tools are great, especially for roughing out bowls and, I suppose, rough spindle turning also (although I don't do any of that). They allow you to get started without the learning curve for sharpening steel (and cost if you don't already have a grinder or jigs for a grinder). The result is no catches and a finished product that gives a lot of satisfaction to beginners. The downside is that, generally speaking, more sanding is required to get the bowl finish to an acceptable end point. You can get a good finish with carbide tools but the time and patience involved is much greater than with steel tools and then there is still a fair amount of sanding required.

So, in the end I've invested in steel tools, a sharpening jig for the Tormek I already owned, and a diamond wheel. I get much better end results with the steel tools and my sharpening methods. With the diamond wheel and the included Tormek jig I can also resharpen my Easy Wood round and radius inserts to essentially new sharpness.

In the end, I never regretted investing in the Easy Wood carbide tools. Even though I now use steel tools much more, I still use my carbide tools in the roughing out process (especially when hollowing out bowls) and even sometimes during finishing. It's a great place to start for someone who has never turned; an easy way to get some satisfying results at the start.

[Jim Meyer]

Lisa there is a local club in Erie, Presque Isle Woodturners. They have a web site you can look up for mor e info

[Dan Gaylin]

As someone who has turned for less than two years and who only turns on weekends I have hesitated to weigh in because others are much more knowledgeable. But it may be useful perspective for you.

I agree with what Randy says. I am just starting to use HSS tools and I find the sharpening tricky and the technique of using the tools challenging. Not that it isn't worth it of course, for all of the reasons noted above.

I also agree with John about the Hunter carbide tools. I would recommend the Osprey and the Hercules. They are great and make a big difference in getting a more finished surface before you get to sanding. The easy wood tools negative rake scrapers are also useful in this regard. The Hunter tools also work a bit like HSS tools in that you can ride the bevel on the tools. And Mike Hunter is a really nice guy and experienced turner who is very generous with tips on using his tools and more general tips as well.

I hesitate to disagree with John, who is a super experienced and talented turner but I think his comment about other carbide tools (with screw in inserts) may be out of date. There is a wide range and some carbide inserts are not very good, but the Ultrasheer, Easy Wood, and actually the Rockler brand are all excellent in my experience. I actually like the Easy Wood the least of the three, although I do like their negative rake scrapers in some applications.

I do not spend hours sanding my pieces to get them looking good, and my finishes do not look inferior because I used carbide tools. I got into the hobby in part because I love turned wood pieces and I have a number of them made by experts, so I have a good sense of what a really nicely finished turned piece looks like.

I'm sure as I get better with HSS tools my sanding time will diminish somewhat. But my sharpening time will increase. And frankly I don't love sharpening. I may enjoy it more when I get better at it. I also don't like metal dust in my shop for a whole lot of reasons, so I tend to sharpen outside.

With sanding, I've rigged up a pretty good system with my dust collector (see Robo Hippy's video) that it pulls most of the dust off the piece as I am sanding it. Many people hate sanding. I don't. I find it sort of meditative and relaxing as a weekend turner.

Hope this is of some help.

[tom lucas]

I'm a fairly new tuner too. At first, I didn't have a good sharpening system and opted for carbide tools. I had a cheap set of HSS tools and found a good deal on a set of Robert Sorby chisels. I quickly perferred the HSS tools - more shearing and less scraping cuts. Since, I've purchase a good sharpening system. Now the carbides see very little use. If you start with carbide, get an inexpensive mid-sized set like the Rocklers. That way you won't have a lot invested in them. The Hunter tools are good but not cheap. Turning is quite the funnel directly connected to your wallet. I started with a lathe practicalliy given to me for $75 including the set of HSS tools. I thought, well I can play with this, maybe make an occasionally cylindrical thing that I might need. Then I got the bug. I've now spent $thousands: new lathe, CBN sharpening system, honing tools, tool rests, live centers, Thomposon chisels, 3 chucks,..... It'll take all your money!

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

It is hard for beginners to concentrate on basic skills when their attention is distracted by all manner of fancy turnings they are anxious to try. A skew chisel is one of the easiest to sharpen without special tools and is one of the most feared tools on the rack. Even many experienced hobby turners avoid it whenever possible. Everybody wants to make bowls and inside out turnings etc. Try to concentrate on basic skills with the basic tools. Today we have all kinds of fancy specialty tools available, and yet turners of 100 years ago and 200 years ago, made almost all the same items with just a few basic tools and far more primitive lathes. Carbide tools make it too easy to skip the basics and the older tools can leave a much nicer surface requiring less sanding.

The fancy jigs and grinders aren't necessary for the old school basic tools.

[Lisa Starr]

Thank you all for thoughts and input. I'm still reading every post. I still haven't actually received the lathe and related equipment, as the person giving it to me was sick last weekend. Hopefully I'll get it soon. Once I am able to figure out what I've got, I'm sure my questions will multiply rapidly. Of course, nothing is certain in this world, but I'm really hoping to become proficient at turning spindles for some projects. Bowl turning etc really holds little interest for me at this point.

[Dean Thomas]

Hi Lisa,

Lots of good info in the various responses, some better than others, some seem to be more opinion than experience-based, IMHO. Yup, funnel or vacuum connected directly to your wallet. A friend described it as a money sucking black hole! It's usually a loving relationship, but too often a money sucker.

Learn to use standard tools and shapes. That knowledge will inform and guide any carbide tool usage.

Club membership and attendance is a huge and valuable asset. Does the club have tools and hold "open shop" sessions? Mine is open two Saturdays per month. Some of the members would be pleased to meet you in your shop or theirs to help you with basics. Learning to sharpen with or without jigs on a grinder (preferably with white wheels). A Club or Club member might afford you an opportunity to get good initial edges on the tools you get with the lathe.

Don't be anxious or overly eager to buy tons of tools, or even additional tools beyond your basics. It's a "trap" that's way too easy to fall into. Too many turners end up with racks of tools in their possession that mainly go unused. Maybe think in terms of a couple of good quality gouges, a traditional skew or two, a parting tool or two (a basic 1/8" diamond point; a 1/16" would be a nice addition). Learn to sharpen and use basic tools with traditional sharpening. Get good with those before trying different grinds and ideas. You might want to add what some call a detail gouge, but don't hurry into it.

This, of course, is my own summary, based on my own experience as a general turner. Cut some 2x4 lumber cut into manageable squares and use them as practice pieces. You'd not be making projects, but you'll learn how to make good cuts while creating good looking fire wood.

[tom lucas]

The suggestion to use 2x4 cuts to practice is a good one. The wood is cheap and if you can get a smooth cut on crappy pine, you can get them on just about anything. I did/do this to practice using spindle tools and getting clean shear cuts. However, the infamous cork-screw run-back seems to occur more readily on harder woods (or maybe it's just me). Anyway the 2x4 cut to 2x2 lengths is a great way to learn.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

There are some really simple spindle projects that can be turned in a matter of minutes and yet utilize basic skills of the more basic tools. A simple egg shape made only with a skew chisel involves practice with beads going both directions. I recently made a dozen, various size acorns, from various woods. Again, using only a skew chisel. Once you learn to handle the skew, the finish is almost better than sanded. I even use a skew chisel to part the pieces off. A wooden bowl of assorted acorns makes for an interesting dust catcher. But it is an important step of learning basic tools and their uses.

[Lisa Starr]

Well I got the lathe today....or at least most of it. It turns out it is an old Craftsman (made by Power King) Model 534.06260 with the cast bed. It has the headstock, tailstock and banjo detached for the moment but everything for the lathe itself seems to be there. There is no motor or the step-pulley that goes on the motor. Needs some clean up before anything else. I also received 2 old sets of tools 1 branded "Craftsman" and the other "Viking". The adventure begins!

[John K Jordan]

Well I got the lathe today....or at least most of it. It turns out it is an old Craftsman (made by Power King) Model 534.06260 with the cast bed. It has the headstock, tailstock and banjo detached for the moment but everything for the lathe itself seems to be there. There is no motor or the step-pulley that goes on the motor. Needs some clean up before anything else. I also received 2 old sets of tools 1 branded "Craftsman" and the other "Viking". The adventure begins!

If the Craftsman tools are the HSS ones they are not bad. I bought a set when I first started turning and I still use several.

[Lisa Starr]

Spent the day working, on and off, on the lathe. I was able to easily pop the drive spur out of the headstock, but had to get quite persuasive with the dead center in the tailstock. Both are out, cleaned up and ready to use. The bearings in the headstock were bone dry, but I oiled them several times today and have rotated the shaft a fair amount by hand. The bearings feel smooth and there is no wobble, so I think I'll leave the headstock assembled for now. Banjo is all cleaned up, thanks to EvapoRust and the Tailstock casting is soaking now. Hopefully tomorrow I can assembly it and work on locating a motor and the step pulley. I'll soak the tools in the EvapoRust tomorrow too.