How would you go about making this?

[David Justice]

A client of mine designed a table that he wants. It is an accent table with three legs and stretchers between the legs. The legs are at a 15 degree angle and mortised into the table top. Nothing new there, but he wants the beginning of the stretchers and the leg to be one piece. I have drawn it up in Fusion 360 (see picture).

So the leg is round with 2 stretchers going out at 0 and 60 degrees. How would you make this? I have some ideas in my head, but wanted to get some other thoughts.

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Thanks!

[Erik Loza]

A joint between the leg and where the stretcher meets acceptable or does it all have to be one machined piece?

Erik

[Flamone LaChaud]

Just spitballing here, but I'd turn the legs first, keeping that stretcher beginning as if it was supposed to be around the whole leg. Mark for the mortices, and then saw the bulk of the waste away, and finish with hand tools.

[Jim Becker]

Brian Holcombe makes similar legs for his chairs. The angles are different but essentially one turns the spindle, leaving the area for the junction with the stretcher unturned. The waste is trimmed away by hand and shaped/faired into the turned profile. You may want to make jigs for trimming the angles for both the ends of the spindles and for the junction area.

[Andrew Seemann]

It kind of looks like that danish modern stuff that was all the rage in 1970s Fine Woodworking magazine. Tage Frid, Krenov, that sort of thing where the wood was supposed to flow from one piece into another. I recall that they used a lot of power sanders, rasps, and that sort of thing.

[Jim Barstow]

I took a day-long course on chair making from Sam Maloof years ago and he demonstrated how he made joints similar to this. He used oversized wood for the leg then constructed a traditional angled mortise and tenon. He then shaped (sculpted) the leg and joint to make it one flowing mass.

The most amazing thing is that he did the angle and cuts by eye. The rough shaping was done by holding the leg in one hand and a router in the other. (He prefixed the operation by saying he didn’t recommend this approach to others.)

The man was truly remarkable.

[David Justice]

Thanks for the tips and advice guys. I'm going to try the lathe approach this week. I wouldn't even begin to try to sculpt it by hand. Especially since I have 6 of them to do.

[Prashun Patel]

With these flowing joint pieces, it’s best to cut your joinery first.

If you wish to make the transition area part of the leg, cut the 60 degree face first, then mortise it, then cut the leg roughly with the bandsaw then turn or sculpt the leg leaving the transition area proud.

You can create less waste with this method by gluing the transition area onto the leg blank. This can be turned that into a design element by doing layers of contrasting wood.

Alternatively, you can make the transition part of the stretcher. In this case, cut the leg square, notch out an oversized recess for the stretcher at 60 degrees and then cut a mortise for a stepped tenon in the notch. Then turn the leg. This way creates less waste and arguably a stronger joint because the short grain area is minimized.

In either case, the joint is greatly simplified by using loose tenons. Make sure the tenon extends beyond the short grain transition area.

Also don’t sculpt the transition area until the piece is glued up.

These joints are simplified further by screwing into the joint from the outside of the leg and plugging the joint. Some customers looking for this kind of joint even think the plug is desirable.

[Jim Becker]

With these flowing joint pieces, it’s best to cut your joinery first.

This is very good and spot-on advice...

[Prashun Patel]

You will likely have to do some final shaping of the joint by hand. I have found a coarse, quality rasp to be invaluable and efficient at this. It’s shocking how aggressively delicate a good rasp can cut.

[Jim Becker]

It’s shocking how aggressively delicate a good rasp can cut.

Catch phrase of the year!!! :D

(And I agree...I actually used mine yesterday to refine the shape of something I was working on)

[David Justice]

For Anyone interested in following this, the lathe didn't work very well. I only have a small 12x20 so, with that extra wood in the middle it was bouncing all over the place. I ended up going at it with a bandsaw to cut out as much as I could then spokeshaves, rasps, planes, and chisels did the rest. It really didn't take as long as I thought it would. Tip for anyone doing anything like this, although spinning on the lathe didn't work, the lathe acted as a great vise. I put the wood between centers and locked the indexing pin and it worked very well. I did almost all of the work while it was on the lathe. I'll post more pictures as I get farther along.

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[Prashun Patel]

That came out great! If you haven't done the other legs yet, IMHO, you should really cut your mortises first. It makes things much easier later.

[Brian Holcombe]

There is one problem that I hope you all are considering. This mortise retains zero strength prior to reaching the leg proper, the part extending off can be smacked off with a light hammer blow, it is not structurally sound.

I would cut that back to include the radius only, with the mortise in the leg itself it is now capable of functioning properly. The straight section should always be made up of the stretcher.

Cut the mortise when the leg is in a rectangular section.

Make the transition with a router template or CNC machine (or have your friend Jim with his CNC make you a super nice template :D)

Cut the mortise section down to desired thickness retaining your center (mortise is in the center of the leg) and parallelism.

Make the transition into round section with a router bit using a router table.

Turn the remainder, adjust what remains by hand.

I've done it by hand many times, no problem doing that, but this is faster, more effective and produces a better result. Mind your grain direction when pattern routing, it is a process that is not without stress and possible failures.

Personally I would leave that mortise section full thickness, cutting it down in thickness only reduces the strength of it. Make the stretchers larger to fill that space out.

[Jim Becker]

Brian, if the mortise through the "flag" on the spindle is deep and the tenon on the stretcher is long, would that not reinforce the joint enough that the short grain would be less of a factor? There is potentially a visual benefit/feature to doing it the way the OP cut them which is why I'm asking.

[Brian Holcombe]

That’s pretty much required for their to be any structure to the joint, but having that big flag on there pushes the shoulder very far away. If it wiggles at all, it will split that off. I’d trim it back to the radius’ end.

Better still, cut them parallel to the leg, ending as the radii terminate and make the tenon shoulders at an angle.

Angled joints have many structural advantages but a practical cutout disadvantage is that the mortise depth is very difficult to make matching the angle of the leg, inevitably it’s shorter at the bottom.

[Jim Becker]

Makes sense. I was just curious.

[David Justice]

I am using long dowels to connect the stretcher to the 'flag' that protrudes from the leg. The dowels reach into the round part of the leg and these are small, 3 legged accent tables, so they won't be holding a ton of weight. I think the dowels and glue will be plenty strong enough.

[Mark Hennebury]

this is the way that i would do the joint 418845

[David Justice]

Thanks for all of the advice everyone. Pictures attached of how the tables came out. Client was very happy. These were a ton of work, but a great learning experience.

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[Jim Becker]

Darn...you NAILed that project! Those are absolutely beautiful.

[lowell holmes]

How about putting a radius on the small piece, glue together, and put two dowels through the two to anchor it?

[David Justice]

Thanks Jim!

[Prashun Patel]

Those came out great. I think harder than the curved transitions is the compound joinery for a triangular table.

I am making a similar staked hall table, and am torn between the direction of the wedges. I see you've not gone perp to the grain of the top on all three.

Timely pix!

Thanks for posting.
pp