My Secret Finish

[John Hart]

Ok...I think I have experimented enough with this stuff so it's time to reveal the recipe. I first started using straight Shellac and that was too unmanageable so I moved to thinning it a tad with DNA...That helped a little but it seemed to dry too fast. So then I added BLO and that helped on the drying issue...plus it gave a richer finish. Then, last week, I was puddling around in the finishes at Sears and found some Minwax antique oil finish and after trying it a couple times, I was ready to throw it in the trash....But it had a new ingredient (Linseed Alkyd Resin) so I decided to throw that into the mix. Viola!! Just hand rub it in and it dries as you are rubbing it...evenly, smoothly...conservatively glossy. Very nice to touch.


Tablespoon of Shellac
Teaspoon of Antique Oil Finish (Clear)
Teaspoon of BLO
Teaspoon of DNA

Stir well. Dip a rag in it and rub rapidly into the wood. You can spot finish so you don't really have to do the whole thing at once. It blends perfectly.
If you're doing pens, just shut off the lathe and turn it by hand while applying the finish in a back and forth motion.

That's it. Anyone already come up with this one?

[Andy Hoyt]

John - What's the cut on the shellac?

[John Hart]

I forgot to post pics!!!

Here's the stuff I use. I'm sure it can be substituted for any number of things.

Andy...I don't know what the cut is. I just bought it at HD premixed. I don't care for it much but it's all I have right now.

[Loy Hawes]

Might have to try this recipe out. I got this image of you in your shop with a lab coat on surrounded by boiling beakers and a mad laugh after discovering the recipe.:D

[Andy Hoyt]

It'd probably say somewhere right on the can.

Also - sounds like you're mixing single use batches. I wonder if it would stiffen up too fast if you mixed up (say) a pint for use all weekend long?

[John Hart]

You got the mad laugh part right Loy!!! Well...it's more of a chuckle followed by a cough ;)

Andy - It's a 3 Lb cut. I suppose it would be ok over a weekend if it was sealed real good.

[Earl Eyre]

I tried the Antique Oil Finish years ago on furniture but never liked it. I can't even remember why, now, but I probably still have the can in my paint shelves! Totally dried out I'm sure.

I've used the 1/3 each of BLO, DNA, and Shellac but sort of gave up on it because it never seemed to work well on anything but very small things like pens, etc. Try a bigger surface and it get's very uneven.

Do you think the Antique Oil Finish makes it go on more even? What was the main difference once you added it? Maybe I'll give it a try.

Earl

[Chris Barton]

I'm calling the Environmental Protection Agency...

[John Hart]

I'm calling the Environmental Protection Agency...

Bring 'em on baby!!!! They'll never get out of the house alive! heh heh heh..cough :o

Earl - As crappy as the Antique Oil Finish is as a stand alone, it made a huge difference in the behavior of the cocktail. I liked the 3 part mix ok but there was something that just didnt turn me on about it.... Adding the new ingredient made it pleasureable to finish. I have to make a Cue Stick Rack this weekend...I'll try it out on that.

[Chris Barton]

Kidding aside John, how well does the shellac mix with the oil-based components? I have never thought to mix BLO or the antique oil mix (which I understand is really varnish and polyurethane mixed together) with shellac. I know that BLO has been added to paints forever to improve there ability to flow and I could see how it being added to the antique oil mix might be a natural consideration but, I am having a little trouble getting my head around the shellac part. I am just wondering how the film building qualities of the shellac interact with the properties of the varnish and polyurethane. Also, as best as you can tell John, does this formula remain a "mixture" or does it appear to go through a chemical reaction (recognized by the production of heat or a change in physical appearance)? Better woodworking through chemistry!

[John Hart]

Great question Chris. This has been at the forefront of my mind throughout this process. I'm not experiencing any heat generation so I think the molecular bonding might be minimal. However, that said, each of the components behave differently on their own so there must be some reaction taking place rather than just a mix. When this stuff is left overnight, the BLO tends to separate out and fall to the bottom leaving a "skin" formation on the top... This suggests that the BLO is simply a vehicle and the remaining ingredients are the ones reacting. Maybe the alcohol is assisting in bonding the Antique Oil to the shellac. There's something going on there......Just not sure what.

[Mark Singer]

John,
Since everyones DNA is different....should I use yours...:rolleyes:

[Bill Stevener]

Extra, Extra!!!

An Ohio man experiments with secret formula. His wife said "I thought I smelled something funny coming from the basement, my husband said, this is going to be the "miracle finish", and will create a big entrance for all the turning world to see.

[Matt Meiser]

John,
Since everyones DNA is different....should I use yours...:rolleyes:

I recently tried adding some of my DNA to a project. Trust me, it doesn't work well.

[Gary DeWitt]

Hmm, verrrrrry interesting, John!
I really like friction polishes, as far as application goes. Very easy and quick, no extended drying/curing time. But they're not very durable. I have been looking all over for a finish that doesn't look like plastic, but will hold up to water, alcohol, etc. for kitchen ware, especially bottle stoppers. This looks like it might be it! I'll try some today on a stopper, put it to use over the holidays, and see how it goes.
You just might have stumbled onto something here.
Thanks a lot for sharing your research!

[Rob Bourgeois]

Dont know if it makes a differnce...but that shellac is not dewaxed shellac. So any other finishes might not stick to it if you decide to change.

My question is have you tried with dewaxed shellac like the other liquid product by the same company. The names escapes me at the moment. I am also wondering if the was in this shellac might be helping the luster/hardness of the finish.

[John Hart]

Extra, Extra!!!

An Ohio man experiments with secret formula. His wife said "I thought I smelled something funny coming from the basement, my husband said, this is going to be the "miracle finish", and will create a big entrance for all the turning world to see.

I just thought of an alteration to the formula. Mainly this thought was incited by Chris Barton's questions. Maybe I should cook this stuff. Wouldn't want to do it with the alcohol in there or Bill might be right. But maybe if I added a little heat to the oils, then add the shellac...then a little of my DNA......heh heh heh...cough...BOOM! :o

[Ernie Nyvall]

Thanks for the secret formula John. I'll have to giver a try.

Ernie

[Carole Valentine]

I just thought of an alteration to the formula. Mainly this thought was incited by Chris Barton's questions. Maybe I should cook this stuff. Wouldn't want to do it with the alcohol in there or Bill might be right. But maybe if I added a little heat to the oils, then add the shellac...then a little of my DNA......heh heh heh...cough...BOOM! :o

Uh, John? The Antique Oil has thinners in it that are combustible. Let's not get carried away here. I don't want to lie awake all night worrying about you blowing yourself up!

[Frank Chaffee]

Careful John,
There are ethical issues involved when using your own DNA in experiments.

Perhaps you should ask for independent peer oversight before publishing beyond SMC.

Of course, none of us here really care, we'll try anything at least once.

Respectfully,
(wheez, cough, cough)
Frank

[John Hart]

Uh, John? The Antique Oil has thinners in it that are combustible. Let's not get carried away here. I don't want to lie awake all night worrying about you blowing yourself up!


Awwww c'mon Ma!!! Just a little heat...just a little. Hey! how 'bout some boiling water!! I promise to turn the flame off before I bathe it! ;)



Careful John,
There are ethical issues involved when using your own DNA in experiments.

Frank.....You're talkin' to a ground hog wearing a Santa suit. I think we're waaay past ethics!! :D

[Loy Hawes]

I just happened to stumble across this picture of John working in his lab! Let me tell you guys. He has some amazing things in the works!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

You folks have got to stop turning those exotics.....or quit putting the "oregano" on your brownies!:rolleyes: :p :D

[Andy Hoyt]

Yup. there she goes. Time for a new keyboard

[John Hart]

heh heh heh....cough!:D :D

[Jim Ketron]

Loy your one funny Guy!
Glad it you this Time John:D

[Jim Becker]

John, many of my turnings are finished with the Minwax Antique Oil Finish and it's worked out very well. ("Push" technique, using friction to heat it during application) Buffing about a week later with the Beall system brings out a nice warm shine. I would have to say that this is the one Minwax product I actually like outside of the Minwax...wax...I use on my table saw! ;)

[Ernie Nyvall]

You folks have got to stop turning those exotics.....or quit putting the "oregano" on your brownies!:rolleyes: :p :D

Oregano in brownies? Ya'll been holdin out.:mad:

Ken, you just need to get yourself a lathe.

Loy Loy Loy Loy Loy, I'll use a phrase on you my grandmother used to say to me... You beat all I've ever seen. Course I was in trouble when she said that to me.

Ernie

[John Hart]

John, many of my turnings are finished with the Minwax Antique Oil Finish and it's worked out very well. ("Push" technique, using friction to heat it during application) Buffing about a week later with the Beall system brings out a nice warm shine. I would have to say that this is the one Minwax product I actually like outside of the Minwax...wax...I use on my table saw! ;)

Well....then, I was just doing it wrong!(what a shock eh?):o I followed the instructions but I never tried to get any heat to it. I'll give it another go. By the way....Should this thread be moved into the Finishing Forum? I started it here in Turners because it was dealing mostly with turning.

[Bill Stevener]

You move this thread over to the finishing forum and you'll surely get a little heat, it will probably smoke. :D

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Andy Hoyt]

These last few posts have made me ponder a bit.

Other than that friction polish stuff (Mylands is the brand I'm familar with) which is mostly just shellac; is there a finish that is manufactured today that is specifically formulated for turning?

Or are we just the back water component of the finish puchasing demographic?

[Rich Stewart]

John, I tried out some of your recipe today and it worked pretty good on a maple bowl I turned. Wife said it looked like a pearl. I just made a small batch and the parts weren't exact. Gonna try some more tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.

[Gary DeWitt]

Andy,
I don't think turners make up a big enough market for major finish manufacturers to formulate just for us. Besides, everyone has their own preference for exactly what ratios they use, and what finish material for what piece, depending on how it will be used or what it will be subjected to.
Even "flatwork" woodworkers who are really serious about their work usually make up something themselves. I believe this is where wiping varnishes and polys made by Minwax and other companies came from. They saw a market for it, so they formulated and packaged it. But everyone knows you can make your own with 50/50 poly and thinner, or thereabouts.

[Howard Acheson]

>> But it had a new ingredient (Linseed Alkyd Resin)

You've been dazzled by the Minwax marketing department. "Linseed Alkyd Resin" is just a fancy way of saying varnish. Varnish is made by mixing alkyd resin and linseed oil and heating it to a high temperature in the absence of oxygen where the two combine into a new compound called VARNISH.

Minwax Antique Oil is an oil/varnish mixture very little different from their Minwax Tung Oil Finish. Minwax Tung Oil Finish is also an oil/varnish mixture and contains no real tung oil at all.

[Jim Tobias]

John,
Tries your mix this morning on a Christmas present that I was getting behind on and it worked great. My ratings so far:
#1 - Wheel
#2 - Sliced Bread
#3 - John's Secret Formula

I have liked the look of shellac but have never liked trying to apply it on bigger flatwork. I have to say that your mix is totally forgiving on corners and mitered joints. Just rub back over it and it smoothes right out. I will check back later to see if I can build coats quickly with it (I can't inagine why not). If not, I will try to top coat it with my regular 1/3,1/3,1/3 mix. At the least (and I am not insinuating that it is only good for this) it should be a great seal coat.

Thanks for the Christmas gift,

Jim

[Charlie Kocourek]

What is the antique oil finish? Is it a varnish type finish or is it more of a very light oil like Watco, or? What I am getting at is would I have to buy that exact product or is there something very similar that would produce similar results.

[John Hart]

Rich and Jim - That's great news! Just a little confirmation helps me get over the initial fear that I might be giving out bad information.

But now that Howard is saying that this is just a fancy name for varnish...Then I might have to rethink it a bit. But not too much....cuz if it works...it works in my book.

But then, I wonder.....If Minwax Antique Oil Finish is the same as Minwax Tung Oil Finsh...just in disguise....Then they would be interchangeable....and more readily available....maybe cheaper....;)

[John Hart]

What is the antique oil finish? Is it a varnish type finish or is it more of a very light oil like Watco, or? What I am getting at is would I have to buy that exact product or is there something very similar that would produce similar results.

Hey Charlie...I posted a pic of the can in this thread somewhere. It is a very thin liquid....much much thinner than BLO....A bit like Watco.

When I used it by itself...the wood immediately soaked it up.

It only had two ingredients Linseed Alkyd Resin 65% and Mineral Spirits 35%

[Andy Hoyt]

You move this thread over to the finishing forum and you'll surely get a little heat, it will probably smoke. :D

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)
So it got moved. Thanks a lot Bill! Now we got these guys posting in here that actually know what they're talking about. There goes the neighborhood.:D

Hold on. That might not be such a bad thing.

EDIT: John - I just turned a 13" platter out of some free pine for kicks and decided to give your conconction a try. Didn't have any Minwax Antique Oil Finish but did find an ignored can of some Minwax Tung Oil. Based on Howard Acheson's post above I figured I'd give it a shot since they sound nearly the same to me. Mixed it up and it sure looked, smelled, and handled just like an off the shelf shellac based friction polish. Cranked the lathe right up high and got it very dry to the touch.

But it now looks a bit dull. I'll let the finish cure a bit more over night and then give it a buff. I'll post a pic then.

[Howard Acheson]

>> If Minwax Antique Oil Finish is the same as Minwax Tung Oil Finsh...just in disguise....Then they would be interchangeable..

There is a slight difference between the Antique Oil and the Tung Oil Varnish. The Antique Oil has slightly more "varnish" in it and uses a faster evaporating solvent. Probably more like naphtha than mineral spirits.

That said, a reasonable facsimile can be made by mixing equal proportions of your favorate varnish or poly vanish, boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits or naphtha. If you want a faster build, use slightly more varnish. Nothing magic, just keep trying until you find a mixture you like.

[Gary DeWitt]

I tried John's concoction as stated on a few Christms ornaments, applying by hand off the lathe (easier than coming up with a way to hold 'em after assembly on the lathe).
I used 2-3 coats, wiping on and then off each time. I got a real nice even finish, without too much build. I waited an hour or so, just on general principles, then coated with microcrystaline wax, which brought up the shine a bit while still not getting too glossy.
I think the BLO acts as a lube, similar to oil used in french polishing. It never seemed to stay mixed in with the finish, kinda beaded up on the surface on the second and third coats.
I really like this finish, I'll be using it a lot. It pops the grain very well, and with the varnish, I feel there is more protection than just shellac.
Thanks again, John!

[John Hart]

Cool!!!! Thanks Gary!


I think after this weekend, I may try some of Howards suggestions too. It would be nice to find the "perfect" finish. All right, all right...It'll be fun to experiment!!!! heh heh heh...cough!

[Andy Hoyt]

Just buffed that platter i was talking about yesterday and it shined up really nice. Thanks John and Howard. I'll be posting pics in the turners forum in a few minutes.