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Boyd Gathwright
12-16-2005, 5:40 PM
FIRE IN THE SHOP (1 of 4)


.... Since there have been recent shop fires, we felt compelled to share these pics with you all. Fire does NOT usually give a second chance. Once I realized many years ago how devastating a fire can be, it has been foremost on my mind in most things I do. Not to mention the loss of life that may result in a fire, you never recoup what a shop or house has cost you and that includes the many personal hours you have devoted to it as well as the insurance. I feel sure that for every shop and or house fire we hear about here at the Creek there are always those that feel that certain amount of embarrassment and consequently do NOT let us know of some little detail that was overlooked and turned into a tragedy.
.... These fire extinguishers and fire extinguisher stations had already been considered and designated well before these most recent shop fires took place. We were waiting for some of the materials to come up at the local auctions which they did. The fire extinguishers were bought over a year ago, just hadn't been put in their official stations yet. If you noticed in the pics, we have tried to place them out of the way, not too high not too low still reachable for all. They are still where they can be easily reached in a hurry. When things happen they happen FAST. The color “Safety Yellow” is not for our benefit but for people who might be visiting and take notice should they have to respond. They have been located in unobstructed areas with NO debris, including: machines, parts and in some cases product. We felt by sharing this with you it would make you more mindful and help give “PLACEMENT” ideas in your own shop / house especially with the holidays coming.


.... A safe and happy Christmas to you all :).


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http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=25782 (http://showthread.php?t=25782&highlight=fire)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=23685 (http://showthread.php?t=23685&highlight=fire)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=22578 (http://showthread.php?t=22578&highlight=fire)

Boyd Gathwright
12-16-2005, 5:43 PM
FIRE IN THE SHOP (2 of 4)

[quote=Boyd Gathwright]FIRE IN THE SHOP (1 of 4)

Boyd Gathwright
12-16-2005, 5:44 PM
FIRE IN THE SHOP (3 of 4)

[quote=Boyd Gathwright]FIRE IN THE SHOP (1 of 4)

Boyd Gathwright
12-16-2005, 5:46 PM
FIRE IN THE SHOP (4 of 4)

[quote=Boyd Gathwright]FIRE IN THE SHOP (1 of 4)

Dale Thompson
12-16-2005, 11:17 PM
Boyd,

I see your point on ease of accessability and such. However, the most important location for a fire extinguisher is at the EXIT to your shop.

Unless you are VERY trained in their use, NEVER use a fire extinguisher before you call 911 if the fire is at ALL significant.

ALWAYS leave yourself an escape route. That is the reason for the EXIT location. DON'T let yourself get trapped!

Extinguishers located near flammable storage cabinets are typically useless. You will not be able to access them if that cabinet BURSTS into flame!

The first two minutes of almost ALL fires are the most critical. After that period of time, you can expect them to grow exponentially instead of linearly! There is a BIG difference.

NEVER use an extinguisher to fight a fire unless you are confident of your abilities. Carbon Monoxide is responsible for as high as 80% of all fire-related deaths. Oxygen depletion and "flash-over" are also significant hazards to the untrained.

Just a few additional thoughts. :)

Dale T.

Boyd Gathwright
12-17-2005, 12:24 AM
.... I couldn't agree with you more Dale. When I started this thread I kept in mind what Forrest Price said “Stay safe, check your faucets, and get bigger extinguishers. if you ever need it, it's horrible when they run out when you're gaining on a fire.” http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=27163 (http://showthread.php?t=27163)The way I see it you can never have enough extinguishers, that is, within reason.

.... Thanks again Dale and have a safe one :);):).

Boyd
P.S. You may have to copy and paste the above address.


Boyd,

I see your point on ease of accessability and such. However, the most important location for a fire extinguisher is at the EXIT to your shop.

Unless you are VERY trained in their use, NEVER use a fire extinguisher before you call 911 if the fire is at ALL significant.

ALWAYS leave yourself an escape route. That is the reason for the EXIT location. DON'T let yourself get trapped!

Extinguishers located near flammable storage cabinets are typically useless. You will not be able to access them if that cabinet BURSTS into flame!

The first two minutes of almost ALL fires are the most critical. After that period of time, you can expect them to grow exponentially instead of linearly! There is a BIG difference.

NEVER use an extinguisher to fight a fire unless you are confident of your abilities. Carbon Monoxide is responsible for as high as 80% of all fire-related deaths. Oxygen depletion and "flash-over" are also significant hazards to the untrained.

Just a few additional thoughts. :)

Dale T.

Don Baer
12-17-2005, 12:47 AM
I have had a lot of training in fire fighting thanks to uncle Sam (US Navy Sub service) I agree that it's a good idea to have several in plane sight and easy axcess near the exits. I keep both a dry chemical and a CO2 extingusher in my shop. I also have a hose bib and hose with a nozel just outside of my shop. That said one of the major problems the average person faces is they don't make sure that they are fully charged. You must have them cheked annualy. Keep and ABC extinginsher at least available at all time and make sure that is charged and ready.

a few years ago my youngest son was at the neighbors house on a weekend, it was in the winter and they "kids" were having a party. The weather was overcast so they had erected a large tent (20x40 ft) in the neighbors backyard out of canvas. They were using a propane heater to heat it. Whenever the kids had a party either at my house or the neighbors I usualy hung around the garage just to act as a external chaperone. My son came running over and asked me "Dad, how do you put out a propane fire ?" I asked him what was going on and he told me that someone had "kicked" a propane heater and cracked the fitting between the heater and the tank. I grabed the CO2 extinguiser and ran over, put out the fire and shut off the gas flow from the tank. Fortunatly there was no damage and no one was hurt but it could have been a lot worse.

Moral of the story, make sure your equipment is in proper order and kn ow how to use it.

David LaRue
12-17-2005, 8:48 AM
Dale,

What about home sprinkler sytems? I read an artcle about them especially for shops. Are these dry charges or are they always wet? And is they are dry charged how do they get activated? :confused:

Dale Thompson
12-17-2005, 8:30 PM
Dale,

What about home sprinkler sytems? I read an artcle about them especially for shops. Are these dry charges or are they always wet? And is they are dry charged how do they get activated? :confused:

David,
I am a proponent of residential sprinkler systems. However, they should NEVER be a replacement for smoke detectors. Smoke detectors are intended to detect an early fire whether the products of combustion are visible or invisible. Sprinkler systems are usually much slower in responding because they are HEAT detectors. They can, however, save your property and even allow alert persons to escape the fire by preventing "flashover". :)

"Wet" systems are always filled with water. When a sprinkler head is actuated by heat, water will flow instantly from the actuated head only.

If your shop is located in an area that is subject to freezing and is not always heated, you can opt for a "dry" system. In a "dry" system, the piping is pressurized with air or Nitrogen. The water source is located in a warm place. When a fire actuates a sprinkler head, the pressure is vented and the water is released through what we call a "pressure-differential" valve. "Dry" systems are a bit slower than "wet" system but still quite effective. :)

David, this can be a rather complicated issue. If you are considering a fire protection system for your shop, I would be glad to review any proposals that you may receive. :)

Also, check with your insurance company on whether or not a sprinkler system will lower your premiums. There are still some dinosaurs out there who will actually RAISE your premiums. :rolleyes:

Lastly, there are door-to-door salespeople who may actually try to sell you heat detectors to replace your smoke detectors! These folks are potential multi-murderers. :mad:

Recalling the fact that I am a REALLY sensitive, politically-correct person, they should be SHOT ON SIGHT!!! :eek: No Judge! No jury! No trial! The only "charge" should be a 50mm projectile right where the eyebrows meet!! :cool:

Dale T.

Ernie Nyvall
12-17-2005, 8:44 PM
Thanks for the thread Boyd. I need to get busy.

Ernie

Squizzy Taylor
12-17-2005, 8:54 PM
Hi all this being my first post I had better introduce myself
A retired Aussie who's father was a carpender , and when I retired ( Marine Engineer ) I got out dad's tools , bought some new stuff a decent shed and am now a full time wood tinkerer.
I have been watching this thread for a while and finally regestered last week

As to Shed fires , from an Aussie point of view
Extinguishers, not only do you need one in the shed but also in the house
Don't fit them in the dangerous space ie kitchen but adjacent to the door just outside the room
This is more dificult in a shed and inside the most used entry point is proberly the best place. One at each door is better.
Most important make sure you and all your family know how to use the extinguisher have seen plenty of people who thought they could operate an extinguisher fall at the post. Have seen pictures of a burnt out car with three extinguishers that were thrown into the fire because people didn't know what to do with them.
The general home type are Dry Powder these are used in a sweeping motion aimed at the base of the fire they don't last long so get it right the first time
Extinguishers Dry powder Type cost from around $25 up in Australia not sure of price in US
Every 2-3 months take extinguisher and shake well espically if in an area of vibration
Every 2-3 years replace and with the old ones have a little fire drill of your own where you let the kids or Wife let the old one off choose a good spot for this as the powder makes a mess


More than 40% of injuries from household fires still come from people putting water on burning oil.
Thus you need an extinguisher and you should also have a fire blanket in your kitchen by the exit

People will spend a fortune on their house or shed toys let alone the cost of a life, and still balk at spending $25 on an extinguisher. Its like putting in a sound system , tv, computer etc and not paying $100 for a surge protected power board.

An even more dangerous area is a caravan , tent, camper trailor

I have 5 portable extinguishers in the house , shed & camper trailor, which you may think is overkill but when you have seen two major engine room fires on ships and put out 5-6 in galleys and accomodation you see how quickly and easily they start and the damage they can do in a very short period of time. And how quickly they can be put out with a simple extinguisher before they get big enough to do much damage then you too will install some

As to a sprinkler system check out the cost , ongoing maintaince costs, and should you break a bulb on a wet system, ie hit it with a piece of lumber etc you get a very wet shop with water damage to your tools machinery


Rgds All

Squizzy

The trouble with life is there's no background music.

James Ayars
12-17-2005, 9:34 PM
Boyd, Thanks for including pics as that gives me some ideas for my garage. Last week we had the first visit in 10 years by a fire marshall to my commercial building. Needless to say that after 10 years he found a few things wrong. I put up an additional 7 smoke detectors yesterday. They are so inexpensive(less than $10 a piece) and quite easy to put up.

What is you guys opinions of smoke detectors in a garage?
James

Boyd Gathwright
12-18-2005, 1:30 AM
Hello Squizzy,

....Welcome aboard, It's good to have new blood in the Creek. Good to see you just jumped in with both feet. Pretty nice bunch of Joe's here. Rule number one is don't forget your pics when you post.

.... Once again welcome, and we look forward to your future post :).

Boyd




Hi all this being my first post I had better introduce myself
A retired Aussie who's father was a carpender , and when I retired ( Marine Engineer ) I got out dad's tools , bought some new stuff a decent shed and am now a full time wood tinkerer.
I have been watching this thread for a while and finally regestered last week

As to Shed fires , from an Aussie point of view
Extinguishers, not only do you need one in the shed but also in the house
Don't fit them in the dangerous space ie kitchen but adjacent to the door just outside the room
This is more dificult in a shed and inside the most used entry point is proberly the best place. One at each door is better.
Most important make sure you and all your family know how to use the extinguisher have seen plenty of people who thought they could operate an extinguisher fall at the post. Have seen pictures of a burnt out car with three extinguishers that were thrown into the fire because people didn't know what to do with them.
The general home type are Dry Powder these are used in a sweeping motion aimed at the base of the fire they don't last long so get it right the first time
Extinguishers Dry powder Type cost from around $25 up in Australia not sure of price in US
Every 2-3 months take extinguisher and shake well espically if in an area of vibration
Every 2-3 years replace and with the old ones have a little fire drill of your own where you let the kids or Wife let the old one off choose a good spot for this as the powder makes a mess


More than 40% of injuries from household fires still come from people putting water on burning oil.
Thus you need an extinguisher and you should also have a fire blanket in your kitchen by the exit

People will spend a fortune on their house or shed toys let alone the cost of a life, and still balk at spending $25 on an extinguisher. Its like putting in a sound system , tv, computer etc and not paying $100 for a surge protected power board.

An even more dangerous area is a caravan , tent, camper trailor

I have 5 portable extinguishers in the house , shed & camper trailor, which you may think is overkill but when you have seen two major engine room fires on ships and put out 5-6 in galleys and accomodation you see how quickly and easily they start and the damage they can do in a very short period of time. And how quickly they can be put out with a simple extinguisher before they get big enough to do much damage then you too will install some

As to a sprinkler system check out the cost , ongoing maintaince costs, and should you break a bulb on a wet system, ie hit it with a piece of lumber etc you get a very wet shop with water damage to your tools machinery


Rgds All

Squizzy

The trouble with life is there's no background music.

Dale Thompson
12-18-2005, 6:26 PM
[QUOTE=Squizzy Taylor]Hi all this being my first post I had better introduce myself
Don't fit them in the dangerous space ie kitchen but adjacent to the door just outside the room

More than 40% of injuries from household fires still come from people putting water on burning oil.
Thus you need an extinguisher and you should also have a fire blanket in your kitchen by the exit [quote]:

Squizzy,
Allow me to join the others and welcome you to the CREEK!! :) As you already have, please continue to share you knowledge and expertise with us. Speaking for myself, I need all of the help that I can get!! :D ;)

My idea of a home kitchen fire has always been a pan of grease, a greasy oven or something like that. :( With the former, a lid for the pan or a box of baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) is the best extinguisher. For the latter, DON'T open the oven door! :eek: The fire will generally "starve" itself due to either oxygen or fuel depletion or both. :) As you mentioned, NEVER PUT WATER ON BURNING OIL, GASOLINE OR ANY OTHER FLAMMABLE LIQUID!! :mad: You will become a part of the 40% statistic. :(

I don't recommend that an extinguisher be used in a kitchen fire unless the fire has grown to the point that it involves curtains, cabinets, carpeting, etc.. Again, dial 911 FIRSTand then attempt to fight the fire with your back ALWAYS to the exit! Fire extinguishers are generally charged to a pressure of about 200 psi. They can splatter a LOT of grease if not used by an experienced operator. :(

Again, Squizzy, WELCOME!! :)

Dale T.

Paul Prescott
12-18-2005, 9:48 PM
Somewhat of a confusing topic to me. Some dry chemical extinguishers are corrosive and hard to clean up. One internet site recommends a B:C foam type for a workshop, another a purple K A:B:C extinguisher. Advice and recommendations?

Dale Thompson
12-18-2005, 10:52 PM
Somewhat of a confusing topic to me. Some dry chemical extinguishers are corrosive and hard to clean up. One internet site recommends a B:C foam type for a workshop, another a purple K A:B:C extinguisher. Advice and recommendations?

Paul,
ALL dry chemicals are hard to clean up. They contain a certain percentage of VERY small particles that penetrate just about every "nook and cranny" in the area where they are used.

The only dry chemicals that can truly be considered corrosive are the A:B:C agents. These dry chemicals are primarily comprised of Monoammonium Phosphate. This chemical decomposes at about 230 deg. F. into free Ammonia and Phosphoric Acid. Both are highly corrosive and should be cleaned up immediately. This is especially true if they are used on any form of electrical or electronic equipment.

I'm not sure what they mean by a B:C Foam agent. However, by definition, ANY Foam agent contains water! Water (except distilled water) is a real good conductor of electricity! ZAP!! You will NOT find a Foam extinguisher in MY shop!! :mad: :eek:

Purple K is not a unique dry chemical. It is a trade name of The Ansul Co. for its version of Potassium Bicarbonate. It is NOT an A:B:C agent. Its basic claim to fame is that it is, by far, the most effective agent on flammable liquids and gases. Although it is listed for Class C (Electrical) fires, it would not be my first choice by a long shot. ;)

Paul, in all honesty, I don't have an extinguisher in my shop. It is a home shop so I would assume that any problem in the shop would be picked up by my home security system. ALL dry chemicals are a MESS to clean up. :rolleyes: ANY form of foam involves water and, therefore, creates a potential hazard due to the conductivity of water. :( The "Clean Agent" inerting gas extinguishers are priced far above what I am willing to pay as a hobbiest. :p

If you happen to own a large manufacturing facility, many of the above "rules" must be reconsidered! :)

Dale T.

David LaRue
12-19-2005, 7:42 PM
I have LOTS of fire extinishers in my house. Typically the larger ABC type. I do have a Halon one too. I have it along with a ABC in my kitchen. It is also the one I bring out when we have the bon fires.

I also have taught my kids how to use a fire extinisher on a fire ( in the fire pit with newspapers) utilizing a unit that was ready to be replaced.

I like the idea of adding a sprinkler system to my shop, and think I can keep the heads out of harms way. I know from data centers that a wet charge is NOt a good idea. So I'd like to go that way if I do add.

Bart Leetch
12-19-2005, 8:11 PM
Here at the apartment complex we have all the fire extinguishers serviced twice a year. The company that services them warned me about these cheap fire extinguishers with the plastic valve. They said that they have seen lots of these fire extinguishers where the valve fails & the extinguisher loses its pressure & when the fire ignites the fire extinguisher doesn’t work.

Make sure your fire extinguisher is a good size one & has a metal valve & is serviced twice a year maybe at the same time you change your smoke alarm battery would be a good time to do so. Here that is when the clock springs ahead in April & when the clocks fall back in October.

Dale Thompson
12-19-2005, 9:16 PM
I do have a Halon one too.

I like the idea of adding a sprinkler system to my shop, and think I can keep the heads out of harms way. I know from data centers that a wet charge is NOt a good idea. So I'd like to go that way if I do add.

David,
Halon 1211 is a GREAT idea for a shop. :) It's a "streaming" agent that stays liquid until it reaches the fire. Then it rapidly evaporates into a fast acting gas. It is also "clean" and leaves no agent cleanup problems. Unfortunately, it is no longer available because of "environmental" concerns and, even when it was, it was very expensive. :eek: :(

You said that a "wet" system is NOT a good idea and then imply that you wish to install one. :confused: In reality, both a "wet" system and a "dry" system will dump water on your "stuff" if a head is damaged or knocked off by a wayward board or pipe clamp.

The Data Center controversey is strictly one of economics for the insurance companies. They want to save the building because they know that computers are a lot cheaper than buildings. For the most part, they could care less about that one "reel" of tape that may be worth MILLIONS to the insured company. To them it is worth a buck two ninety five at Office Max and that's it! :( Data Centers are forced to "double-protect" by installing a "clean agent" system that will activate and extinguish any fire before a sprinkler head is "fused" (i.e. opened). Then, as a backup for insurance purposes, they must add a sprinkler system. :rolleyes: :(

If you have a heated shop, I would go with the "wet" system. It will react slightly faster and should be significantly cheaper. :)

Dale T.

Squizzy Taylor
12-20-2005, 7:43 AM
Somewhat of a confusing topic to me. Some dry chemical extinguishers are corrosive and hard to clean up. One internet site recommends a B:C foam type for a workshop, another a purple K A:B:C extinguisher. Advice and recommendations?

Mate each extinguisher has its advantages and disadvantages
Foam is not good for electrical fires , dry powder does make a mess and can be corossive if left , Co2 is good but not for wood fires as it dosen't last very long, ( disapates without killing the heat source espically with wood fires so recombustion can occure), sprinkler systemy cause damage to machinery and not suitable in electric fires

I guess it comes down to what is good for you , just make sure whatever you use you know how to use it properly ,it is kept in good working order and you understand its limitations


Rgds

Squizz

Boyd Gathwright
12-27-2005, 11:17 AM
.... Did anyone get a fire extinguisher for Christmas :):eek::)?

Dale Thompson
12-28-2005, 8:39 PM
.... Did anyone get a fire extinguisher for Christmas :):eek::)?

Boyd,
I got my wife a big coffee urn so that she can stay up all night on "fire watch". :cool: :) I also got her two five gallon buckets that she can use for water if there IS an incident - just so that she doesn't have to wake ME up! :) ;)

She said that I was "insensitive". :mad: I don't know what that means but I am starting to get the idea as I watch the last smoldering embers of my shop slowly burn themselves out. :confused: :eek:

Dale T.

Kurt Strandberg
12-28-2005, 9:51 PM
David,
I am a proponent of residential sprinkler systems. However, they should NEVER be a replacement for smoke detectors. Smoke detectors are intended to detect an early fire whether the products of combustion are visible or invisible. Sprinkler systems are usually much slower in responding because they are HEAT detectors. They can, however, save your property and even allow alert persons to escape the fire by preventing "flashover". :)

"Wet" systems are always filled with water. When a sprinkler head is actuated by heat, water will flow instantly from the actuated head only.

If your shop is located in an area that is subject to freezing and is not always heated, you can opt for a "dry" system. In a "dry" system, the piping is pressurized with air or Nitrogen. The water source is located in a warm place. When a fire actuates a sprinkler head, the pressure is vented and the water is released through what we call a "pressure-differential" valve. "Dry" systems are a bit slower than "wet" system but still quite effective. :)

David, this can be a rather complicated issue. If you are considering a fire protection system for your shop, I would be glad to review any proposals that you may receive. :)

Also, check with your insurance company on whether or not a sprinkler system will lower your premiums. There are still some dinosaurs out there who will actually RAISE your premiums. :rolleyes:

Lastly, there are door-to-door salespeople who may actually try to sell you heat detectors to replace your smoke detectors! These folks are potential multi-murderers. :mad:

Recalling the fact that I am a REALLY sensitive, politically-correct person, they should be SHOT ON SIGHT!!! :eek: No Judge! No jury! No trial! The only "charge" should be a 50mm projectile right where the eyebrows meet!! :cool:

Dale T.
I see from your profile that you do know what you are talking about. As a retired paid per call firefighter and a sprinkler fitter I have seen what fire can do.

Like you said they can save your property while protecting you as you exit the building.


The bumper sticker on my pickup;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/kurtsara/sprink.jpg