Table Saw Questions

[John McGovern]

Hi All,

I've been lurking in the weeds for some time and have found this venue to be the most knowledgeable, helpful, and courteous forum on the block. And, I know this question has been asked and answered so many times, but I hope you all have the patience for one more dip to the well to answer mine.

It is time for a new table saw. I once had a 60's Craftsman, with a cast top and cast grid wings, but it was grossly under-powered, had a crappy fence and miter gauge, and was unstable - falling to the motor side when feeding sheet goods. Try catching 200 pounds of table saw whirring away with a sheet of ply balancing on it - that's safe, huh? Somehow, I managed to do some nice work with it.

Anyway, it has been gone for 10 years and now it is time to build a new shop. My footprint is a 2 1/2 car garage that will serve as the shop when building, but the machinery will be moved against the wall when idle to house a pickup. For a new saw, I would like to pay $1,500, but already realize it will probably be $2K - $2,500, which is hard to swallow for someone who paid nearly nothing 40 years ago. I need precision cuts as I will be building kitchen cabinets. I already learned my lesson about heft, so I already know a heavy saw is in order. A few questions, please?

1) Cabinet or Hybrid? If Hybrid, I don't want to have to jack-around with trunnions all the time.
2) 52" rails and wing?
3) If the answer to #2 is yes, some saws come with long rails, but no wing insert - what to do?
4) Is a router wing worth having, and is there a generic that fits most saws, or are they saw-specific?
5) I have 220V, so should I skip the 2HP models and go right to 3HP? (Probably a stupid question...)
6) Finally, what are your favorite models? New and used are both acceptable. So much has changed and my head is whirling like the blade on the falling Craftsman... Saw Stop will not be an option; I will rely on my discipline to keep all Ten.

I appreciate all advice, suggestions, and comments.

Thanks,
John

[glenn bradley]

There will be sooo many answers to this and all will have value. For working with sheet goods many will steer you to a guided saw system. This would allow for a smaller table saw capacity, fence-wise, and 52" fence saws are not all that wonderful to move on a mobile base. I'm already wandering so let me just give you my opinion in order of your questions:

1) Cabinet or Hybrid? If Hybrid, I don't want to have to jack-around with trunnions all the time.
- I had, and dad still has, a great hybrid, the Craftsman (Orion) 22124 BUT, it had cabinet mounted trunnions and could be aligned wonderfully. If not for an unexpected windfall I would still be operating it.
2) 52" rails and wing?
- As mentioned, long fence saws are awkward to maneuver so your intent to roll things out of the way when not using them would factor in here. I run a 52" fence and my methods rely on it. It is not a requirement BUT, I do very little with sheet goods and still make wide use of this fence capacity.
3) If the answer to #2 is yes, some saws come with long rails, but no wing insert - what to do?
- A side-feed table is an easy build.
4) Is a router wing worth having, and is there a generic that fits most saws, or are they saw-specific?
- Most router wings fit most saws. In my experience they are primarily aimed at the 27" deep saws. I used one for years to save room. It will add to your mobility challenges.
5) I have 220V, so should I skip the 2HP models and go right to 3HP? (Probably a stupid question...)
- Even though my hybrid did everything I asked of it, a 3HP saw is the entry level to a serious tablesaw for me. The cuts are made with more confidence, cleaner results with less micro-tuning of blade and technique, etc.
6) Finally, what are your favorite models? New and used are both acceptable.
- I won't go down this road too far. Many folks are fine with paying a bit more for their favorite color of paint or favorite safety feature. In the 3HP non-flesh-sensing arena, Grizzly still wins the most bang for the buck contest; if I needed a saw today and didn't want to think about it too much I would just order a Grizzly G0691 in the fence length of your choice. For those that hate green (or white sometimes) Jet and Powermatic are still glad to take your dough. There are frequent "3hp tablesaw bake-offs" in the trade rags. I would get a few of those to sift through.

Wood (https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tools/reviews/table-saws/tool-review-3-hp-table-saws)

Fine Woodworking (https://www.finewoodworking.com/tools-materials)

[Jim Becker]

A cabinet saw is generally going to be beefier than a hybrid. Many folks buy the 50-52" rail setups and eventually figure out that they could have been perfectly well served by a more modest 30-36" rail setup...but it really depends upon how and what you use your saw for and whether or not you intend to leverage the extra space to the right for, say, an integrated router table setup. Personally, if I were buying a new saw today, it would be with the shorter rail to preserve shop space. 3-5 hp is the norm for a cabinet saw.

I can't advise you on brand...that's personal preference and also a pricing exercise. But honestly, there's little difference at the heart of a cabinet saw. Most of the differentiation is going to be with features and workmanship.

[Frank Pratt]

I had a 52" fence for years & hardly ever used the capacity, and I usually break down sheet goods on the table saw. My current saw has a 36" fence and I have missed the bigger one exactly zero times. I do have a router table built into the extension for space saving reasons and it works well there.

3 HP is very nice to have. I would prefer to not have to go lower.

[Mark e Kessler]

3hp, 36" fence, router table built in (if you don't have space for dedicated) and a track saw for braking down sheet goods - there is nothing worse than braking down sheet goods on a cabinet saw without a huge outfeed table. I would look on the used market, I am a hater of green, white and new yellow...

[Robert Engel]

Hi All,
1) Cabinet or Hybrid? If Hybrid, I don't want to have to jack-around with trunnions all the time.
2) 52" rails and wing?
3) If the answer to #2 is yes, some saws come with long rails, but no wing insert - what to do?
4) Is a router wing worth having, and is there a generic that fits most saws, or are they saw-specific?
5) I have 220V, so should I skip the 2HP models and go right to 3HP? (Probably a stupid question...)
6) Finally, what are your favorite models? New and used are both acceptable. So much has changed and my head is whirling like the blade on the falling Craftsman... Saw Stop will not be an option; I will rely on my discipline to keep all Ten.

I appreciate all advice, suggestions, and comments.

Thanks,
John
I know I could get an argument here, but IMO you just can't go wrong with a 3HP cabinet saw. Personally, I have two table saws, both Jets. One 3HP cabinet and one 1 3/4 HP. They are both excellent machines and while either could get the job done, the difference in power between the two is very noticeable. I prefer left tilt. I think there is probably little difference between the major brands. I think warranty and support are what separates. For example, Jet support - excellent, Grizzly not as good. I do own several Grizzly machines (planer, jointer, drum sander) and have been very satisfied with all except the sander. I think their table saws are probably worth a look and review.

52" rails will cost a premium on space you have to think about why you want it. I do have the 52" rails, but it spans both saws. Truthfully, I seldom use anything past 36" strictly because I don't want to heft sheets of ply anymore. For that, I use a track saw. So you might consider a track saw if you plan on using a lot of sheet goods. It sure has made my work process much more efficient and easier on my back.

IMO yes a router is a must. I couldn't imagine building cabinet doors without one. Personally I prefer a dedicated router table, again, if space is a premium, a saw mounted router is an option. After going through a couple iterations of router lifts (Router Razer & Triton) I finally bit the bullet and went with a router lift (MastRLiftII + Jessem PowerTek router) - all I can say is its the bomb.

[Bill Dufour]

Location? I am looking to sell my Unisaw in a week or so once I get my 12/14 saw done and installed.
Bil lD

[Ron Selzer]

When I replaced my contractors saw 5 years ago I decided on a Grizzly 1023 not certain which model. However after 30 years I was handed unexpectedly some money my grandparents left me. This let me me move up to a Sawstop ICS with all options available at that time, 5hp, mobile base, 36" fence, etc. I never regretted buying this one, however I am certain I would have been happy with the Grizzly 1023 if I had gone that way. Can't have too much power. I never have set my fence over 10" wide yet. I do have a Safety Speed Cut H5 to cut panels with. Powermatic shaper so no router table.
Cabinet saw, as much power as you can afford, mobile base for sure

[Mark Daily]

John, I agree with a 3hp cabinet saw, 36” fence. I bought a Grizzly 1023 about 15 years ago and have had no problems with it. I also build cabinets and it does all I need it to do. There are many fine brands out there but Grizzly is what I am familiar with. Saw Stop is a fine choice if you want the safety technology but it will cost more.

Whatever you choose I would make sure it has a riving knife- I think it’s an essential safety feature.
I have a separate router table but if you don’t have the room get one for the table saw.

[Frank Pratt]

Whatever you choose I would make sure it has a riving knife- I think it’s an essential safety feature.

I'll add to this; make sure it has a riving knife and guard that are easy to change out, preferably tooless. If it's super easy to use them, then they will get used.

[jack duren]

Unless you are breaking down sheet goods for cabinets you won't really need the 52. You'll miss it from time to time but you'll survive...

Now a 52" fence can benefit you on a router in the extension

[Frank Pratt]

When I had a 52" fence, I used it breaking down sheet goods a couple of times, but when you're cutting a 52" piece off a 4' x 8' sheet it can get dicey. Much safer & easier to do that with a circular saw & straight edge.

[John McGovern]

Wow, I believe you Folks are really a good bunch! Every answer was directed to my challenge and to the point.

I think the consensus is a cabinet saw with 36" rails and a router extension. Secretly, I hoped that would be the saw, for those that pointed it out, 52" is a lot to store.

Thanks to all that replied. And Bill, I'm in East Tennessee. We should have hooked 8 years ago when I was in SoCal.

J

[Bob Hinden]

For what it's worth, I have a 3hp SawStop PCS 36". Works great for me. At the moment I mostly store stuff on the end of the table :-)

For cutting full sheets of plywood, I use a track saw. I will bring it to the table saw when the pieces are more manageable, and of course for ripping lumber. I don't have room for permanent tables to handle plywood on the table saw.

Bob

[Mike Kees]

I would completely agree with the consensus except for one minor point. I have a cast iron router wing on the left side of my jobsite saw,and much prefer this location. This may or may not work with the direction of tilt and handles for saw in the way. If it does it works very well.

[Frank Pratt]

I would completely agree with the consensus except for one minor point. I have a cast iron router wing on the left side of my jobsite saw,and much prefer this location. This may or may not work with the direction of tilt and handles for saw in the way. If it does it works very well.

I'd like to have my router table on the left side, but that's where the motor bulge is.

[Terry Therneau]

I would look at used. Scanning the local Craigslist (southern Minn) I found 2 PM 66 and a Delta unisaw, from 850 to $1200. You are in the same general part of the country so I would expect the similar. I have a 1947 unisaw myself with a 1HP motor, and I am almost never wanting, so I personally don't get quite as excited by HP. A solid, heavy, immobile cabinet beats power: you end up cutting the wood instead of fighting it. (FYI, I mostly use cherry, walnut or maple, building furniture for wife and kids.)

I'll agree with others that a track saw is the best way to deal with the first stage of plywood breakdown. I don't have to move my saw and have a very nice outfeed, and I still find pushing a 4x8 sheet across the unisaw to be far too clumsy.
I made a cutting table for the track saw, 2 7' side rails and 5 3' connectors, 2x4s set on edge will all screws 1" below the surface, and a pair of what I call "church table" folding legs from the big box store. A simple open frame, without a top. It's light, takes very little space stored (hang on the wall) and can be set up in 1-2 minutes. I set the track saw be 1/8" too deep, and still I'll be worn out long before the table is.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I agree with the other on breaking down a 3/4" sheet of 4'x8', much easier to do with a track saw.

I bought my first table saw back in 2014. It was a 32" SawStop PCS 1.75HP saw. I had to put it away when I was done for the day, so my wife could park her car. The SawStop mobile base made this super easy. I made a fold down outfield table to allow the saw to be pushed up tight against the wall.

Here you can see all my tools pushed up against the wall (SawStop in the center of the picture).

https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/DSC_9803_zpsxlxajzoe.jpg


Last year I swapped out the motor for a 3HP 220v. Very easy to do, took me about 30 minutes.

I also swapped out the fence for an Incra LS Positioner and added a router table to the right side of the saw.

https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Incra%20LS-Fence/SawStopIncra1_zpsub0ejje6.jpg

Here is the Saw in router mode. You unbolt the Incra LS Positioner and rotate it 180 degrees, takes about 30 seconds. It has positive stops to align it for both saw and router mode.

https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/SawStop/InraceLS-TS_zpssseokihc.jpg

I've also just made and extension wing for the left side of the blade, for work support and saw related tool storage.

https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/SawStop/SE3_zpsktoydzea.jpg


https://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/SawStop/SE4_zpsvyjcexpb.jpg

While some of this is impractical for a saw that needs to be mobile, don't sell yourself short on a tool that you'll probably have for the next 10-15 years and like me, your location may change where you have a little more room to do other things with your saw.

[John McGovern]

Thanks to all for the additional info.


Nice toys, Chris. Can I be an heir?

Terry, I missed-out on a couple Unisaws for the right price on CL. In my ignorance, I was unsure when Delta quality went downhill and let them sit on CL for too long. When I decided to message one of the owners, poof, it was gone; as was the other. Most of the saws within 200 miles of Knoxville are contractor saws, either Craftsman or fold-ups. The cabinet saws seem kind of pricey in my area and after upgrades, I would probably be over $2K... But, there is always that great find, right?

I have a little time to wait for the great find, but if I am forced to go new, I am thinking about the Griz G1023RLWX: https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-10-5-HP-240V-Cabinet-Left-Tilting-Table-Saw/G1023RLWX. What does the community think about the merits and downfalls of this saw, if I may ask?

Thanks,
J

[Jim Becker]

The Grizzly 1023 series has been around for a long time and it's a sturdy saw.

[Mike Kees]

One of my friends,an ex-employee bought one about a year ago.I was really impressed by it,actually I think they are every bit as good as a Unisaw.

[Carl Beckett]

The Grizzly 1023 series has been around for a long time and it's a sturdy saw.

Had this saw for years and was very pleased with it. Had I not purchased a slider, I would still have it. (the only other option for me would be a saw stop)

[jack duren]

It's not easier to break down sheet goods with a track saw. It's easier with the 52" fence or slider....

[Jim Becker]

It's not easier to break down sheet goods with a track saw. It's easier with the 52" fence or slider....

I agree with the slider, but for the cabinet saw/52" fence, unless there's a healthy infeed/outfeed solution available, it's not easy at all for one person to cut down full sheets. The track saw lets someone do the deed on the floor if they want to which cuts down on the lifting/balancing act that would be required to do it on the cabinet saw unless the substantial support system was in place. In a non-commercial shop, the space to do that is less likely to be available. I have a slider and there are still times when I choose to use my track saw for breaking heavier sheets down because I sometimes cannot physically manage getting them up on the outrigger due to weight and space.

[jack duren]

There is nothing to it with the correct setup. bottom line.

If your not sure call a professional..

[Jim Becker]

There is nothing to it with the correct setup. bottom line.

If your not sure call a professional..

The "correct setup" is exactly what I was referring to. Most folks here are hobbyists are not in situations where they can support that kind of "setup" with the space they have available.

[Frank Pratt]

There is nothing to it with the correct setup. bottom line.

If your not sure call a professional..

What you call the correct setup is not the correct setup for me & most other hobby woodworkers. I had a 52" fence c/w huge out feed & in feed tables, but that still didn't work well because of the space it took & the hassle of getting 100 lbs sheet goods up onto the table saw. So I ditched all that & now use a circular saw & straight edge to break things down into more manageable sizes. That works much better for me.

So, bottom line is that each individual needs to figure out what works best in they're own space. To dismiss other methods because they're not 'professional' is arrogant and kind of insulting.

[jack duren]

I can't answer the question for each ones ability and setup. But I answered it correctly. It is easier to cut on 52" fence than with a track saw..

If you want to break down ability and setup do so...

[Cary Falk]

1) Cabinet or Hybrid? If Hybrid, I don't want to have to jack-around with trunnions all the time.
Hybrid is fine if it has cabinet mounted trunnions. I don't know what models those are. A cabinet saw is always a good choice.

2) 52" rails and wing?
If you have the space go for it. I find 26" too short. I took a 26" fence and shifted it over and now have a 34" fence. It is fine paired with the Jessem Mast-R-Slide I have. I had a 52 in the past and it was great but it gathered a lot of junk.

3) If the answer to #2 is yes, some saws come with long rails, but no wing insert - what to do?
Build your own. It is easy to do.

4) Is a router wing worth having, and is there a generic that fits most saws, or are they saw-specific?
I hate a router table in the wing. I prefer separates.

5) I have 220V, so should I skip the 2HP models and go right to 3HP? (Probably a stupid question...)
Go straight 3-5hp.

6) Finally, what are your favorite models? New and used are both acceptable. So much has changed and my head is whirling like the blade on the falling Craftsman... Saw Stop will not be an option; I will rely on my discipline to keep all Ten.
I have a Grizzly G1023RL and love it. I had an old Unisaw that I restored before that. I am much happier with the Grizzly.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I can't answer the question for each ones ability and setup. But I answered it correctly. It is easier to cut on 52" fence than with a track saw..


Don't know what your magic is, but cross cutting a 4' x 8' sheet of 3/4" plywood or MDF, I'm going to my sheet of 4'x8'x 2" pink insulation, on the floor, and then using my track saw. Wrestling that heavy sheet while trying not to bind up the saw blade, on my cabinet saw, no, I'll go to my ground method, hardest part is standing up after kneeling making the cut(s).

[jack duren]

Don't know what your magic is, but cross cutting a 4' x 8' sheet of 3/4" plywood or MDF, I'm going to my sheet of 4'x8'x 2" pink insulation, on the floor, and then using my track saw. Wrestling that heavy sheet while trying not to bind up the saw blade, on my cabinet saw, no, I'll go to my ground method, hardest part is sanding up after kneeling making the cut(s).

You have to in a cabinet shop..not all shops have sliders or other alternatives. Commercial or residential but most are turning to CNC 's these days..

[jack duren]

Between 2006-2013 I cut melamine on a Powermatic with 52" fence that had been converted to a 96" but i eventually converted it back to a 52" because it was a bit much. I cut and keep guys busy 5 days a week. It was the norm..

[John McGovern]

Regarding sheet goods, I used to wrestle them on the Craftlsman with a single outfeed roller. Besides the saw wanting to fall over, a 4 x 8 was a bear for me and I'm not any younger here. There was nothing safe nor accurate about it. A straight edge or track saw will have to do for this kid.

May I change the focus a bit, please? Routing is critical to me. I currently have a cheesy router table - light aluminum, with a lousy fence, the work drags on the table, hard to get to the router for bit changes and adjustments - think cheap. I want heavy. That is why I thought the Griz with the router table. BUT, I realized that the table accepts a round insert and appears to have no dedicated fence no T-slot for a miter set-up.

I also realize my work flow usually seems to jump from one operation to another. This would mean at times, perhaps dropping the router to use the saw. That would make repeatable router cuts impossible. Additionally, the router mounted in the Griz would be very close to the wheel to raise/lower the blade - not too cool.

May I get suggestions as an alternative?
a) A separate router table may be acceptable, but it would have to be HEAVY as I do raised panels. But they seem to be the cost of the saw, and that dog won't hunt.
b) Is there is a router table to put on the Griz (right or left side?), that is has a fence and t-slot, and will accept a router lift. Are there repeatable lifts?

I believe the light is nearing...

Thanks,
John

[Carl Beckett]

Routing - extension wing or dedicated table:

I am not sure you will save 'that' much from a cost savings perspective. Just that I am thinking I built my router cabinet/table from leftover mdf that was given to me. It is a nice setup and has all the features I want.

But purchased a lift. Purchased a table insert (not the big item). Purchased a heavy router. Purchased a fence. These were the bulk of the cost. Other than possibly sharing a fence with the tablesaw (which I never really was inclined towards the incra fence style on a TS), you have all these same costs. And yes I have nearly as much in my router table as my TS.

Am thinking you will have to add it all up both ways, just first glance its not obvious to me a huge cost difference. So go with the one that serves your needs the best.

[John McGovern]

Nice perspective, Carl. I think my needs are equal. Unfortunately, cost constraints tip the equality balance somewhat. Either I put the money in one bucket, or I skimp on both - and I eschew the latter. Why are Boy's Toys so expensive? Maybe I can justify an expanded expenditure on my wife's shoes :eek:.

[Frank Pratt]

May I change the focus a bit, please? Routing is critical to me. I currently have a cheesy router table - light aluminum, with a lousy fence, the work drags on the table, hard to get to the router for bit changes and adjustments - think cheap. I want heavy. That is why I thought the Griz with the router table. BUT, I realized that the table accepts a round insert and appears to have no dedicated fence no T-slot for a miter set-up.

I also realize my work flow usually seems to jump from one operation to another. This would mean at times, perhaps dropping the router to use the saw. That would make repeatable router cuts impossible. Additionally, the router mounted in the Griz would be very close to the wheel to raise/lower the blade - not too cool.

May I get suggestions as an alternative?
a) A separate router table may be acceptable, but it would have to be HEAVY as I do raised panels. But they seem to be the cost of the saw, and that dog won't hunt.
b) Is there is a router table to put on the Griz (right or left side?), that is has a fence and t-slot, and will accept a router lift. Are there repeatable lifts?

I believe the light is nearing...

Thanks,
John

I don't have one myself, but I've heard lots of convincing arguments for a shaper rather than a router table. Especially for the kind of heavy work you're wanting to do with it. By the time you pay for a table, lift, router, fence, etc you could be getting a small shaper.

[Carl Beckett]

Nice perspective, Carl. I think my needs are equal. Unfortunately, cost constraints tip the equality balance somewhat. Either I put the money in one bucket, or I skimp on both - and I eschew the latter. Why are Boy's Toys so expensive? Maybe I can justify an expanded expenditure on my wife's shoes :eek:.

I think the TS is first priority. You can do a lot with a basic router and no dedicated table setup. Go from there.

[Mark e Kessler]

Their is no magic, Jack is correct on this one cabinetmakers that do this all day long back in the day ( probably today) used a saw with a 52” fence an an enormous outfeed, in the right hands MUCH faster and repeatable than a track saw any day. The first shops I worked in had no sliders or cnc and their were days where I broke down entire lifts of ply and mdf however as Jim said not everyone can have the correct setup or even afford it. (kinda debatable though...) honestly the correct setup in my opinion of 35yrs of woodworking is a slider 9’ min, will eliminate miter box, track saw (even though i still use mine) improve the safety and most of all will improve the quality of work and efficiency.



Don't know what your magic is, but cross cutting a 4' x 8' sheet of 3/4" plywood or MDF, I'm going to my sheet of 4'x8'x 2" pink insulation, on the floor, and then using my track saw. Wrestling that heavy sheet while trying not to bind up the saw blade, on my cabinet saw, no, I'll go to my ground method, hardest part is sanding up after kneeling making the cut(s).

[Frank Pratt]

Their is no magic, Jack is correct on this one cabinetmakers that do this all day long back in the day ( probably today) used a saw with a 52” fence an an enormous outfeed, in the right hands MUCH faster and repeatable than a track saw any day. The first shops I worked in had no sliders or cnc and their were days where I broke down entire lifts of ply and mdf however as Jim said not everyone can have the correct setup or even afford it. (kinda debatable though...) honestly the correct setup in my opinion of 35yrs of woodworking is a slider 9’ min, will eliminate miter box, track saw (even though i still use mine) improve the safety and most of all will improve the quality of work and efficiency.

I don't think anyone is arguing that in a commercial cabinet shop breaking down sheet goods on a big saw is the way to go. But in a hobby shop, where there isn't the room for the in & out feed tables, and just as importantly, the dollies & carts to handle the full sheets, it just isn't practical. But how many of us, in our hobby shops, are doing production work day in & day out.

[jack duren]

I have a unisaw with a 52" fence and a 4 ' out feed table. I like it this way so if I rip 11" shelves the weight on the end lift it on its own at the end of the cut.

This is in my hobby/ garage shop...I have tried to explain this with people setting up shops. For me the tablesaw is #1 and gets the most room....

only picture i have417534

[Jim Becker]

It's really nice to have multiple choices! :)

[Mark e Kessler]

I agree, Sometimes it's difficult to respond with an on point example/opinion - easy to misinterpret email/blog entry's especially when they might not be in order of the responses...

My recommendation even for a hobby shop is in the following preference
1. Slider, longest that can fit, excels at everything
2. Short slider and tracksaw for breaking down sheet goods, better a slider than no slider
3. Cabinet saw max 36" rip , I would argue that you don't even need 36" if space is a concern and you plan on doing mostly solid, just use a track saw, this is what I did for years after I closed down my shop and sold my slider.
a. for the cabinet saw build an 18"-24" fixed outfeed with a 30" or so drop down, now you have a big outfeed for the occasional ply and a work table when you need more area for sanding,finishing etc.

I get that a slider is a lot of money so if you are 70 years old and have a limited budget then the payoff may not be so great but if you are 30 -40 and you invest in a quality slider you could get 40 years out of it (maybe). Also most will say a slider takes up too much space, true you do need space to the left free but with the right setup there is room, I have a 9' slider, 16" j/p, cyclone, router table, drill press, bandsaw, lumber rack...blablabla, you get the idea in a 24' x 24' and I still have room to add an edge sander. In about 15 min I can move everything to one side and get a car in with very little drama so if you need to park a car in the garage this may not work.




I don't think anyone is arguing that in a commercial cabinet shop breaking down sheet goods on a big saw is the way to go. But in a hobby shop, where there isn't the room for the in & out feed tables, and just as importantly, the dollies & carts to handle the full sheets, it just isn't practical. But how many of us, in our hobby shops, are doing production work day in & day out.

[Carl Beckett]

Not sure how far this thread has wandered from the original post/questions.

But to #2) of his list, my preference is a shorter table/fence. I do put a short outfeed (24") table, but have never appreciated the larger fence/table. Most of the time is just becomes another spot for piling stuff, is more difficult to move around, and takes up more shop space. So if I do get another cabinet saw it will be of the short fence variety. 2.5 car garage, moving tools to accommodate the cars parked in there, is not 'that' big of a woodworking space.

It is just my 'opinion' and I do things 'wrong' all the time.

OP original post:
1) Cabinet or Hybrid? If Hybrid, I don't want to have to jack-around with trunnions all the time.
2) 52" rails and wing?
3) If the answer to #2 is yes, some saws come with long rails, but no wing insert - what to do?
4) Is a router wing worth having, and is there a generic that fits most saws, or are they saw-specific?
5) I have 220V, so should I skip the 2HP models and go right to 3HP? (Probably a stupid question...)
6) Finally, what are your favorite models? New and used are both acceptable. So much has changed and my head is whirling like the blade on the falling Craftsman... Saw Stop will not be an option; I will rely on my discipline to keep all Ten.

[Tom Bender]

Hi John
Welcome back into the shop.

Will you be building one houseful of cabinets or do you expect to continue? If one then a simpler method may serve better in the long term. If you will continue to build cabinets long term then a more extensive setup will be needed, probably including the shaper. In either case my preference would be the track saw.

A cabinet project will necessitate storage and an assembly table. Your wife will be parking outside for a while.

Could a track saw be converted to an assembly table and also be stored vertically?

[Mike Cutler]

May I change the focus a bit, please? Routing is critical to me. I currently have a cheesy router table - light aluminum, with a lousy fence, the work drags on the table, hard to get to the router for bit changes and adjustments - think cheap. I want heavy. That is why I thought the Griz with the router table. BUT, I realized that the table accepts a round insert and appears to have no dedicated fence no T-slot for a miter set-up.

I also realize my work flow usually seems to jump from one operation to another. This would mean at times, perhaps dropping the router to use the saw. That would make repeatable router cuts impossible. Additionally, the router mounted in the Griz would be very close to the wheel to raise/lower the blade - not too cool.

May I get suggestions as an alternative?
a) A separate router table may be acceptable, but it would have to be HEAVY as I do raised panels. But they seem to be the cost of the saw, and that dog won't hunt.
b) Is there is a router table to put on the Griz (right or left side?), that is has a fence and t-slot, and will accept a router lift. Are there repeatable lifts?

I believe the light is nearing...

Thanks,
John

John

My personal opinion is that a separate router table is better, if you have the space.
Until I got a shaper my router was in a very heavily built table. It wasn't pretty, and certainly didn't look like anything special.It was a doubled up 2x4 construction and a baltic birch top. It was 2' deep and 4' long. the size of the baltic birch sheet. It was very heavy by itself and I used to store sandbags underneath. It's single best feature,it was dead on flat!!
If I was going to ever put a router back into a table saw, it would only be with a cast iron extension wing made specifically for it. There are many repeatable lifts, but they require that the router bit be reinstalled in the router exactly the same.

Take a page out of the book folks that use a shaper do. Keep a spiral bound notebook with detailed notes on each cutter, and the height from the table top, to a known section of the cutter,it was set at for a project. Invest in a dial indicator, or and iGauge, and you're set. I can measure the thickness of a piece of wood, and have my cutters easily set to within .010 before I even do the first test cut, because I know the geometry of each cutter. After that it's just math, even for the dreaded 45 degree lock miter, and reversible glue joint cutters. Guys that do production work have DRO's, instead of dial indicators, but that's a bit beyond me.
A quality dial indicator, and caliper, are must have tools for a shaper. No reason they shouldn't be for a router table. With these two tools you could easily reset a router bit to within thoudsandth's of the original setup. It could be 10 miutes later, or 10 years later, it doesn't matter because you kept notes on each project to refer back to.
The best fence systems I have ever seen for a router table are the models from Incra. Jointech used to have some great fence systems, but they're out of business now I think. It's not that JessEm and Kreg and the rest don't have nice equipment. They really do, but that Incra system is a rock solid, heavy duty, piece of equipment. If Incra ever makes the same system for a shaper, I'll be the first order.

[John McGovern]

I would like to thank all for their responses, comments, and suggestions. The kitchen cabinet project will take a good table saw and a powerful router with a solid table. In my naivete', I thought I could combine the two with the Griz G1023RLWX. But, it is not an ideal router set-up for many reasons; two being it does not have a fence and no miter slot. Perhaps a separate router table is in order. Mike is spot-on with taking measurements against a reference. A lift would be nice for single-bit applications, but I will be doing panels using multiple bits anyway.

Maybe the Griz will make an OK saw, or perhaps I will find a nice cabinet saw on CL. But is it clear to me that the router set-up is as important and deserves equal footing as the TS.

Thanks again for all the feedback. My head is a bit clearer on a TS and router needs, but is now quickly becoming fogged with track saws (and router attachments). I know I am all over the place here, but I have always spent a boat-load of money starting with the wrong stuff - learning by the School of Hard Knocks. Its time I changed schools...

Thanks again! And, sorr, but will be making future posts regarding new"stuff".

John

[Mike Cutler]

John

I have no dog in this fight. I do not own, nor have ever used a Grizzly product, but in the last decade+, the amount of negative comments I have heard about the Grizzly 1023 series table saws could virtually be counted. It has a very, very, good reputation in all the online forums I drop in and out of.

About the router setup and fence;
Investigate and research the use of a "back fence" to run your rails and stiles. This negates the need for a true router fence system. Combine this with a coping sled that references to a home made fence and you have zero use for a miter slot to perform the cope cuts. Look at Infinity's coping sled, and use it as a template to fabricate your own coping sled.
You absolutely do not need a miter slot to cope. Don't let that feature hold you back.

[David Buchhauser]

John

I have no dog in this fight. I do not own, nor have ever used a Grizzly product, but in the last decade+, the amount of negative comments I have heard about the Grizzly 1023 series table saws could virtually be counted. It has a very, very, good reputation in all the online forums I drop in and out of.

About the router setup and fence;
Investigate and research the use of a "back fence" to run your rails and stiles. This negates the need for a true router fence system. Combine this with a coping sled that references to a home made fence and you have zero use for a miter slot to perform the cope cuts. Look at Infinity's coping sled, and use it as a template to fabricate your own coping sled.
You absolutely do not need a miter slot to cope. Don't let that feature hold you back.

I own and use the Grizzly 1023 RLWX. It is a great saw. Lot of power and very precise. I don't use the router feature, I bought this model because it was only an additional $75 or so for the heavy cast iron wing. Much better than the other option of a light weight pressed wood or sheet metal wing. I agree that a separate router table is a better choice.
David

[Mark e Kessler]

Is it accurate as well? How about repeatable? Precision won't matter unless it is accurate as well...


I own and use the Grizzly 1023 RLWX. It is a great saw. Lot of power and very precise. I don't use the router feature, I bought this model because it was only an additional $75 or so for the heavy cast iron wing. Much better than the other option of a light weight pressed wood or sheet metal wing. I agree that a separate router table is a better choice.
David

[Jared Sankovich]

I had a 1023 from the early 80s and it did everything i wanted. Short of blade runout there isn't much precision or accurately that is inherent to a table saw. Most of it is external or easily adjustable (miter slot to blade, fence to miter slot) beyond that its how well can you see the cursor on the fence..

[Alan Lightstone]

Hi All,

1) Cabinet or Hybrid? If Hybrid, I don't want to have to jack-around with trunnions all the time.
Cabinet saw for sure
2) 52" rails and wing?
My last saw I had 52". I went down to 36" on my new saw, and am very happy I did that.
3) If the answer to #2 is yes, some saws come with long rails, but no wing insert - what to do?
4) Is a router wing worth having, and is there a generic that fits most saws, or are they saw-specific?
I put on a cast iron router wing on my last saw. On this one I built a router table on a movable cart that lives on the right side of the saw. I like that better.
5) I have 220V, so should I skip the 2HP models and go right to 3HP? (Probably a stupid question...)
I went for the 5HP, ICS, so perhaps overkill, but I would go to 3HP. I'm extremely happy with the extra power.
6) Finally, what are your favorite models? New and used are both acceptable. So much has changed and my head is whirling like the blade on the falling Craftsman... Saw Stop will not be an option; I will rely on my discipline to keep all Ten.
I have only owned SawStops, so can't answer that. Clearly there have been many experts that have already answered that.

I appreciate all advice, suggestions, and comments.

Thanks,
John
I hope this helps, though I'm late to the party and you have many good suggestions already made.

[John McGovern]

Thank you to all that responded.

I finally made a decision as to saw and router options, opting for a saw with a router extension wing' as mentioned the Griz G1023RLWX. https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-10-5-HP-240V-Cabinet-Left-Tilting-Table-Saw/G1023RLWX.

For those who are intrepid and can put up with me once more, I created a new post as to a good choice of router for this saw (Dedicated Table Router) :). Perhaps I won't bug you after this...

THANKS to all!

John

[David Buchhauser]

Thanks John!! Please keep us posted with your impressions of your new table saw.
David

[Thomas McCurnin]

I happen to have a Delta Cabinet Saw, with HTC mobile base and outfeed table and a built in router table on the left side. Love it. That said, there is very little difference between any of the high end cabinet saws, Delta, Powermatic, etc at that high level. I would shop used on craigslist

[John McGovern]

Thanks John!! Please keep us posted with your impressions of your new table saw.
David

Hi David,

I am having logistics trouble with Grizzly (not their fault). As you have experienced their protocol, I thought I would reach-out to you in a PM with a couple questions related to this matter. I don't know what happened to my message, for it does not appear in my Sent Items. Did you get it? Would you prefer I ask within this thread?

Thanks,
John

[David Buchhauser]

Hi David,

I am having logistics trouble with Grizzly (not their fault). As you have experienced their protocol, I thought I would reach-out to you in a PM with a couple questions related to this matter. I don't know what happened to my message, for it does not appear in my Sent Items. Did you get it? Would you prefer I ask within this thread?

Thanks,
John

Hi John,
I received your PM and have replied to you with an email.
Thanks,
David