Go to college vs. learn a trade?

[dennis thompson]

I was reading a thread about hiring an electrician and it seems that tradespeople are all very busy and getting responses is difficult, At the same time I read stories all the time about college graduates working at low paying jobs that have nothing to do with their degrees.
So I'm wondering if you had to give advice to your children (or in my case your grandchildren) would you recommend they learn a trade or go to college?
Clearly what you major in (cybersecurity is probably pretty attractive vs, say poetry) will affect your potential future earnings.
I might add that I worked at a trade (auto mechanic) before college and an MBA (don't hate me for it:)), so I have experience at both.
Clearly much of the decision depends on the child but to be honest I'm leaning toward trade.
What do you think?

[Mike Henderson]

If the young person has the capability and interest to major in a field that will offer good opportunity (such as computer programming, engineering, medical, law, accounting, finance, etc.) I would highly recommend going to college. If their interest is art history, they probably won't ever make much money.

The trades are no picnic. Many of the trades are physically demanding and take a toll on the body. When the person gets older, the work gets harder. And the work is usually up and down. During the good times they do well but can really suffer in a downturn. I know a number of trades people and none of them are rich and all complain about physical limitations.

A trade person can build a business, such as home building, and become a manager - hiring other people to do the physical labor.

I went to college for engineering and I'm glad I did. It gave me a lot better life than I would have had otherwise. I look at some of my high school classmates who didn't go to college and many had a tough life.

Mike

[Robert Engel]

My advice is always if you have a dream, follow it. If you are uniquely gifted, use and refine that gift. If you are passionate about it, make good business decisions, and are willing to expand your horizons, your career will never be "work" and you will make it in life financially.

We need doctors, lawyers, teachers, businessmen, etc. the issue is degrees with low marketability and student debt.

IMO what "higher education" is doing to these young people and their families with debt is criminal. Especially the private schools, many of which have mega-endowment funds - used to pay for construction and faculty retirement benefits. Go to any university today what is very common: multimillion dollar construction projects (of benefit to whom?) and professors making 6 figure incomes parachuting out with packages that any of us would die for.
(Don't get me started - I got through professional school in the medical field with a total debt of $20K. You can't even go to my local community college 4 years for that now).

That said, I know several young men who went the trade route after the completed their apprenticeship they have solid, well paying jobs. And no student debt. I think that's a huge factor.

[Jim Becker]

For the longest time, there was the, um...societal push...that the path to prosperity was the road that included a college education and learning the trades was relegated to folks who were not "college material". It's come back to bite us as a society now as a good chunk of the population in "the trades" has aged and is naturally moving on to retirement, etc. The tune has changed and there is a push to show that the alternative to college...learning a trade...isn't an inferior path, but it's going to take awhile to be effective enough in the numbers. It doesn't help that "creating" has taken a backseat to things like sports, gaming and other pursuits, either. Tradespeople make good money and there is almost always work available. And IMHO, it's easier to find another situation as a tradesperson if it's necessary to move on, than it is in the business world these days, as long as one has skills and good work ethic. (business owners talk to each other, so obviously, one cannot be a screwup for long in a close community and expect to get work)

In all honesty, the real winner might be the person who leans a trade as well as gets a business education. They go hand-in-hand. While I never worked in the trades throughout my full time working career, my business education served me well. Now that I'm "retired"...and, in effect, working as a tradesman with my business, that education is still supportive of what I'm doing as I create with the skills I learned since the late 1990s as an avocation. I can also command an hourly rate that is right up there with what I was making as a very successful professional prior to retirement.

So my answer to the original question in general would be that I'd encourage a positive comparison of a college degree vs trade. One is not better than the other outside of the specific interests of the individual choosing. My younger is a junior in college and is destined to be an effective manager...she already is in her work-work. That's suitable for her personality and interests. My older is better suited to "the trades"...in fact, despite her disabilities and ability to only work part time, she's a very talented florist. They are both successful because they are going the route that is best suited for them individually.

[Dan Friedrichs]

We tend to hear about outliers (the art history grad with $200k debt making $8/hr) and ignore the mundane (which is that the average college grad makes >$1M more over her career compared to someone without college education).

Jim's right, though: sit down and make an informed comparison, taking into account the individual's strengths, interests, etc.

[michael langman]

Learning a trade today is greatly benefited by having served in an apprenticeship, with at least a 2 year college degree in specific courses related to the trade.
In doing this the apprentice is setting him or herself up to advancement at an older age in a business or leadership situation.

[Clark Hussey]

We tend to hear about outliers (the art history grad with $200k debt making $8/hr) and ignore the mundane (which is that the average college grad makes >$1M more over her career compared to someone without college education).

I would imagine if you compared just the trades, to those with a college degree. The number would be much smaller. My son went to a 2 year college for a trade. He makes, much more than his sister with a BS. He has 10,000 in student loans she has 50,000.

Out of my five children the one who makes the most is my son who has 1/2 of a semester in college. He is a natural born salesman. My other two daughters one is a midwife the other is a Doctor of physical therapy.

[Roger Nair]

Living and working as a tradesman can be very rewarding in terms of independence and freedom of movement however as life takes it's tolls insecurity is a more constant theme. The wear on joints will level down the vigorous and in all respects one is on it's own, for insurance, retirement savings, etc. Better to be a professional where one can earn credentials. Sometimes being a tradesman means putting down your head and doing the task rather than designing a better solution that is completely apparent. A tradesman is mostly hired to do the work and when done you are finished. It is better to target being in contracting and growing a business.

[John Lanciani]

Mike Rowe's opinion; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVEuPmVAb8o

[Stan Calow]

I think there are too many kids who go to college to delay adulthood, and have unrealistic expectations of their skills. I know a couple of people who teach at colleges, and they say that college has become pretty much remedial high school. But its a business, so they want to keep their "customers" coming and paying.

I think that the too common advice of "do what you love" should be replaced with "do what you're good at".

[Rod Sheridan]

If the young person has the capability and interest to major in a field that will offer good opportunity (such as computer programming, engineering, medical, law, accounting, finance, etc.) I would highly recommend going to college. If their interest is art history, they probably won't ever make much money.

The trades are no picnic. Many of the trades are physically demanding and take a toll on the body. When the person gets older, the work gets harder. And the work is usually up and down. During the good times they do well but can really suffer in a downturn. I know a number of trades people and none of them are rich and all complain about physical limitations.

A trade person can build a business, such as home building, and become a manager - hiring other people to do the physical labor.

I went to college for engineering and I'm glad I did. It gave me a lot better life than I would have had otherwise. I look at some of my high school classmates who didn't go to college and many had a tough life.

Mike

I agree completely with Mike.

If you have the aptitude for university in a field that will provide you with a good career path, it's the best choice.

If you head into a trade, pick one that you like, and try to get out of the physical aspect of the work as soon as you are able. Climbing onto roofs or hanging heavy pipe overhead are tasks for young people.

Regards, Rod.

[Bill Dufour]

I have heard the least physically demanding trade is electrician so it is best for women. Not as much heavy lifting as other construction trades. It also requires the most math skills to calculate allowable load per panel, cable size ampacity etc.
Most other construction trades all the math is done in the office and the results are spelled out on the plans. Rafter angles etc.

[Mike Henderson]

I think that the too common advice of "do what you love" should be replaced with "do what you're good at".

I would add "And can make a decent living doing."

I've seen too many people chase "glamor" jobs only to wind up with nothing.

Mike

[Keith Outten]

Some college grads are so deep in debt they will never pay back their loans. At the same time they my never own a home because of their educational debt. If your going to borrow money you had better be in a field that can provide a serious salary with growth potential. I have two daughters and personal knowledge concerning their college loans.

Being happy in your job is of little consequence if you cannot pay your bills and your future looks pretty bleak.

A young friend of mine went into the trades long enough to get his masters license in multiple disciplines and then started his own business. He has done extremely well over the years and at 40 years old has a new home that is paid for and savings beyond imagination. He is now able to work a reduced schedule and living on easy street. Demand for his services is at an all time high.

[lowell holmes]

You could learn a trade and go to college at night.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

every body dreams of being an all star player for 20 million a season. My Mrs. was making 6 figures just three years out of her two year nursing program. That is almost impossible to beat. My daughter, for whom learning came hard, was offered a tuition free program to get her CNA certificate. It was a six week program. She can quit a job in the morning and have another in the afternoon. it may not pay great, but runs about twice minimum wage. She gets all the overtime she can handle or want. I know some with graduate degrees that drive fork lifts. One particular extraordinary guy I know, was always honor roll in school and was deans list in college. He quit college after his third semester and went to a Diesel mechanics trade school. He then went to some other trade school for a few months. Ten years later he owns a company that specializes in heavy construction equipment repair. He charges more per hour than I did as an attorney and between he and his three employees, can't handle all the service calls he gets. Crappy work in the heat of summer and cold of winter. He tells the story of tearing down and rebuilding a transmission on some huge quarry machine. Zero degrees, blowing wind and snow and working 30 hours straight to finish the job. He presented a bill that was more than a fancy new dump truck and the owner 's reply was Is that all? The guys brother has always been a car mechanic and has trouble paying his bills.

[Erik Loza]

I wasted several years at college before finally dropping out and getting involved in a more hands-on type job, which led me to where I am today. Looking back, I regret not going that path sooner. My wife dropped out of high school and wasted time doing non-college stuff for a few years. When she did go back to school, she earned a PhD. All our brains are wired differently. I think we should prioritize investing more in finding what a young person's aptitude is and then "how can we facilitate a path to making you a contributing member of the workforce, in whatever capacity that may be?". Just my thoughts,

Erik

[Bill Dufour]

The high school math book used to have some interest rate problems. Interesting to see that starting a trade right out of school and saving some money every month turns out better then delaying investing for 4 years plus. Takes until late 50's to catch up assuming college salary is higher in late years.
Bill D

PS: they no longer use those books.

[Mark Bolton]

My 0.02 from pretty much 30+ years of self employment is that it matters more what the individual is looking for out of their life than it only being about a profitable income. Someone who is sound in the notion that they want to do what they love even if its not going to result in the cookie cutter American success story can be happy being anything. That notion usually gets relegated to artist, philosophy, craftsperson, or even tradesperson. But if they are OK with it as an individual, they will be fine. If on the other hand someone has a desire for several children, marriage, home, cars, boats, jetskis, IphoneX, Hulu, Netflix, 200/mo Satellite/cable package, European Vacations, snow skiing trips to Vale, well, they have a different set of criteria.

Of course the notion of "doing what you love" is wonderful. But if doing what you love is art, and you dont land a show at The Met or Moma, and you want the IphoneX and the European vacation,... klunked.

Sure seems at this point in time the smart move is a move in hands on-high tech. So a melding of college and technical training. Precision machining, trading an "art bent" for some sort of digital design/marketing, and so on.

I dont think the employers (even new ones) who would value a degree are completely on board with hiring some non-degree'd individual who shows promise, yet. They still want some institution to qualify the individual at some level which is all a college degree has ever done for the most part anyway. An individual with a degree in Phys. Ed will trump a non-degreed 10 year veteran employe on an internal job posting in an insurance company only because #1 the corporation has imposed a policy to support institutional higher education regardless of qualifications, and #2 because the college process "supposedly" shows that the individual left their parents nest, got their butt out of bed, made it to class, passed at some level, on their own accord. It of course takes nothing into account for how many keg parties were attended, couches were tossed off porches and set on fire, dorm rooms were destroyed, or any other multitude of ways that college attendees seem to find to waste their parents tuition savings or their own future student loan debt.

I personally dont value a college education any more than a good hard working farm kid. Its the personality and where their head is at that will dictate how well they will do in any workforce. But the non-degreed individual will be denied a lot of potential opportunities where they could crush it merely because we are still stuck in the hold over of supporting an institutional system of higher education that isnt really working out so well.

[Jim Becker]

Some college grads are so deep in debt they will never pay back their loans. At the same time they my never own a home because of their educational debt. If your going to borrow money you had better be in a field that can provide a serious salary with growth potential. I have two daughters and personal knowledge concerning their college loans.

This was my concern with my younger, but she wisely choose to get her four year business degree at Penn State Abington and live at home. (19 majors are now available at 5 of the larger commonwealth campuses for full four years without going to the main campus for junior/senior year) That right there cut about $10K per year off the cost of her education because of living expenses and she can also work her regular job (front of house and back of house at the local restaurant she's been with since age 15...she practically runs the place) 25+ hours per week at double minimum wage. She has unsubsidized loans, but her total debt will be less than a decent car costs these days and we provide that for her anyway.

[Jim Koepke]

I dont think the employers (even new ones) who would value a degree are completely on board with hiring some non-degree'd individual who shows promise, yet.

Many years ago one of my daily habits was to read the help wanted ads. There were many requiring a college degree, usually 2 years, to apply.

Employers often were not concerned about which degree for many positions. They wanted someone who would take the time to improve their mind or abilities.

In my youth, many jobs were easy to find. There were also many that offered training. This was a period when there were still some apprenticeships in some trades. One of my early apprenticeships, at about 15 or 16, was as a stage hand.

My mechanical abilities from childhood paid off with jobs in bicycle shops.

My first excursion into community college was to learn art and silkscreen printing. That kept me employed for a number of years.

My second excursion was to get a degree in microprocessor technology. Credits from my semesters of an art student helped toward a degree. The degree helped me to find employment in the manufacturing of drafting machines and repairing engineering copiers and blueprint machines.

This was followed by more work in building and testing electrical power distribution control equipment. The communications protocol for power control systems was called SCADA, Supervisory Control And Data Acquisition.

A funny thing happened after that job. My next employer was a public transit system. One of my positions there involved working on the fare collection equipment. During one of our many meetings it was mentioned the new equipment would have an underlying SCADA communications system besides the network communications. It seemed no one but me knew what SCADA meant. By opening my mouth it was on me to be the "expert" for the SCADA communications. Lucky it was all easy to learn fairly quick.

Some trades can keep a person employed and earning. Others can be a dead end. A good trades person can find lots of work if they can be more than a one trick pony.

One part of my story is that it wasn't about the money so much. My outlook eventually turned around to making sure there would be enough to live well, though not extravagantly.

jtk

[Jim Becker]

Apprenticeships are still alive and kicking out there, but their availability is going to be much greater for folks in and around a metropolitan area because many of them are run by the trade unions which have a higher concentration in those areas. I have a friend who went through that and she's doing amazingly well, although her work requires a lot of travel which isn't pleasant for a single parent. She's a millwright; the work is hard, the hours are long but she was well trained for both the work and the safety.

[Mike Kees]

I live in Alberta. Here in Canada the apprenticeship system is alive and well,every province runs there own system. Here we find an employer who is a certified Journeyman and willing to apprentice you and sign the contract. The system is set up so you work 1300 hours per period and then go to technical training for 8 weeks ,after you pass your exams then you move up to the next period. For the trade of Carpenter it is a four year apprenticeship. Four school sessions and 5200 hours of work experience. I completed this in 1992. Since that time I have apprenticed three guys all the way through. I have my own business and have been self-employed for 25 years. I still like being on a roof and the phisical aspect of my work. However i now have a shop that I built and am starting to transition to building kitchen cabinets and custom work (furniture). One of our good family friends has a wife who is a nurse,she was really upset when she figured out that I made as much or even more than she does. I followed the road of doing what I loved and would not regret that even if it had not worked out as well as it has. There truly is more to life than money.

[Andrew Hughes]

I went the trade route. I hated school. I started roofing in 1984 I also worked at a lumber yard building roof trusses I was the sawyer. I cut wood on a center line saw most have never heard one or seen one. Metra cut was the one I ran.
Its like Radial arm saw except the table could move in or out and rotated for the angles.
I stopped roofing professionally in 2009.
I attribute my handtool skills to my roofing. I also taught my self how to carve during the winter when it rained.
Im a woodturner/ carver/furniture craftsman.
Heres a Santa I carved one year.

[Patrick Walsh]

I’ll keep it short.

I have been a tradesman all my life. I worked in some fashion since I was nine years old. At 16 I climbed to the top of my first 40’ ladder and go tot work. I was scared shit but got ahold of my fear quickly and go to working. I was fooled by what felt like quick cash or good money. Staring back in like 93ish I never made less than $22.50 am hour.

I started as a house painter and honestly hated it. I won’t get into why but just say I really really hated it. With what felt like limited options I began learning other treaded I felt more refined. My thought was I could be more happy and live with myself if I did X vrs. Z...

By 25 I was so miserable I took a opportunity to race road bicycles for next to free “all expenses paid and a small income”. I did this for five years doing a handful of projects in the fall to offset my lack of income. Never in my life was I more happy. It was very very hard work. Way more hard than any job in the trades I ever have had. But I loved it and I love hard work so you know it worked.

Post cycling I came back to the trades with much reluctance. I again focused myself to the high end customs hime market focusing the best I could in finish work. I took up ice and roach climbing about this time and once again found myself living in the parking lot of the Craig for almost another five years. Again I was broke but had just enough means to make it all work. I was never more happy, just like cycling. Ultimately I took a 30’ direct ground fall onto a rock ledge. I scarred the shit out of a guy that nothing scares enough I never climbed again.

I went back that trades as a finish carpenter/fine home builder. I was miserable, completely miserable. If you are like me “Uber liberal” or even a little liberal you might consider the trades will probably be very challenging as most are very conservative.

As a result I made one last ditch effort toward cabinet making. I rather enjoy cabinet making but it’s far from the dream of furniture maker. Being in a shop is far better than out in the trenches but it’s still tuff on the body. The aches and pains are real and accumulate as you get old. I’m genetically gifted physically and as a athlete. My body is like a machine and even I have so many work related chronic injures it’s nuts.

As others have said when times are good it can be very good concerning money. When times are tuff it can be very very bad concerning money. You’d best be good at managing money at the least and you had better not want all the toys and of five kids as suggested above.

I woulda never worked out in a traditional office type setting, when I was a kid the options were much different. These days so many professional work remotely and have unique work situations. If those options had presented or I had looked for them they may had been better than the trades.

But I’m always saying money is not everything. I get so mad that so many make choices that dictate money be their driving force in life. They pursue this money at the expense of everything else and they make themself miserable. As a result everyone around them is also miserable. As a society I think the value we put on money equating to happy is a huuuuuge problem.

On the flip side head up shits creek without a paddle for long enough the. Then you tell me how your happiness thrives vrs plummets.

It’s a balance I guess but happiness is paramount as not much else is worth a dam if your not happy.

[roger wiegand]

I managed to stay in school until I was 30, and might have kept going but that my bride-to-be insisted it was time to get my first real job. Prior to that I was jack-of-all-trades in the family business, doing whatever was required to maintain 100 acres and 22 buildings for the family business. I've made plenty of use of both the academic and practical education I had.

I think that viewing college as a kind of trade school that will prepare you for specific employment is a mistake, and way too many people go to college with no particular outcome in mind. Given that almost no one will do only one job during their lives now, and that any specific knowledge you learn in a class will pretty much be irrelevant in a decade, I think the key role of college is to prepare one for a life of change and learning. If my kids come out of college knowing how to learn a new skill or set of knowledge, how to think logically, how to write, how to find information, and how to interact like civilized beings with a basic understanding of math, history, chemistry, biology, philosophy, literature, music and art I'm pretty happy. A few years of grad school or equivalent can top up the expertise needed to get a first job, but having the basics of knowing how to think, learn, speak, and write is what will carry them through the succession of jobs that constitute a career.

Education of this kind is wasted until the student is ready to embrace it. All kids are different and we really err in trying to force them all through one pathway. The money and time wasted on sending kids to college who have no interest in learning yet is mind-boggling. Both of my kids, one a college grad the other not yet, are currently in or just finished ~1 year certificate programs, in one case for computer science and the other for travel and tourism. These programs are focused on letting the kids get what they need to get a first job in a field as quickly and cheaply as possible. This seems like a tremendously efficient way to approach the job training issue.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I have heard the least physically demanding trade is electrician so it is best for women. Not as much heavy lifting as other construction trades. It also requires the most math skills to calculate allowable load per panel, cable size ampacity etc.
Most other construction trades all the math is done in the office and the results are spelled out on the plans. Rafter angles etc.

Being an electrician is pretty tough work still though. Disagree on the math in the office, you need to at least have a crew chief on site that checks the office's math. An entry level framer isn't really a trade, he's just filling a role on a crew. The guy running the framing crew has a trade.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I’ll keep it short.

I have been a tradesman all my life. I worked in some fashion since I was nine years old. At 16 I climbed to the top of my first 40’ ladder and go tot work. I was scared shit but got ahold of my fear quickly and go to working. I was fooled by what felt like quick cash or good money. Staring back in like 93ish I never made less than $22.50 am hour.

I started as a house painter and honestly hated it. I won’t get into why but just say I really really hated it. With what felt like limited options I began learning other treaded I felt more refined. My thought was I could be more happy and live with myself if I did X vrs. Z...

By 25 I was so miserable I took a opportunity to race road bicycles for next to free “all expenses paid and a small income”. I did this for five years doing a handful of projects in the fall to offset my lack of income. Never in my life was I more happy. It was very very hard work. Way more hard than any job in the trades I ever have had. But I loved it and I love hard work so you know it worked.

Post cycling I came back to the trades with much reluctance. I again focused myself to the high end customs hime market focusing the best I could in finish work. I took up ice and roach climbing about this time and once again found myself living in the parking lot of the Craig for almost another five years. Again I was broke but had just enough means to make it all work. I was never more happy, just like cycling. Ultimately I took a 30’ direct ground fall onto a rock ledge. I scarred the shit out of a guy that nothing scares enough I never climbed again.

I went back that trades as a finish carpenter/fine home builder. I was miserable, completely miserable. If you are like me “Uber liberal” or even a little liberal you might consider the trades will probably be very challenging as most are very conservative.

As a result I made one last ditch effort toward cabinet making. I rather enjoy cabinet making but it’s far from the dream of furniture maker. Being in a shop is far better than out in the trenches but it’s still tuff on the body. The aches and pains are real and accumulate as you get old. I’m genetically gifted physically and as a athlete. My body is like a machine and even I have so many work related chronic injures it’s nuts.

As others have said when times are good it can be very good concerning money. When times are tuff it can be very very bad concerning money. You’d best be good at managing money at the least and you had better not want all the toys and of five kids as suggested above.

I woulda never worked out in a traditional office type setting, when I was a kid the options were much different. These days so many professional work remotely and have unique work situations. If those options had presented or I had looked for them they may had been better than the trades.

But I’m always saying money is not everything. I get so mad that so many make choices that dictate money be their driving force in life. They pursue this money at the expense of everything else and they make themself miserable. As a result everyone around them is also miserable. As a society I think the value we put on money equating to happy is a huuuuuge problem.

On the flip side head up shits creek without a paddle for long enough the. Then you tell me how your happiness thrives vrs plummets.

It’s a balance I guess but happiness is paramount as not much else is worth a dam if your not happy.

I agree, finding happy is whats missing, to much we're taught that $=happiness. Nothing could be further from the truth. I wish I could teach that to my kids but it's one of those things that I think they have to discover themselves. Took me 40 years and a change of career to get it.

[Jerome Stanek]

I wore a few different hats over the years. When I was in high school I worked in a greenhouse picking tomatoes, I then went into printing and was a cameraman stripper plate maker then into construction where I ran heavy equipment then onto the concrete crew. I moved to the truss shop then out to the framing crew where I was the garage door installer after that they moved on to the finish crew and became the painter. I ended up at the shop and was the utility guy that would fill in any crew. I then moved to another company that I was their cabinet maker and did suspended ceilings and flooring. After that I started my own company that repaired remodeled and installed new drug stores. All this time I would help out in the spring for a crop service place. I ended up building trade show exhibits and setting them up. So I guess you could call me a jack of all trades.

[Lee Schierer]

It depends....The person making the choice should do some investigation before making the college/trades decision. Many colleges offer courses that will not provide a career that will support an individual. They have no obligation to teach what is needed for an actual job. If the student is looking for a position that requires a degree, such as architect, engineer, doctor, lawyer, etc then college is a must. If that student can figure out which end of a screw driver to hold onto, then the trade school route isn't for them. On the other hand student likes hands on work then a trade is a good choice. Many trades require an apprenticeship which will likely require some additional schooling and possibly college level courses.

[Ole Anderson]

My granddaughter was set to go to a local state university where tuition was reasonable, but at the last minute for unknown reasons decided Arizona State would be a better fit. Tuition was double. Fortunately we (actually my wife who was in education) had planned for the three grandkids college and built up a generous 529 FBO account for each, so debt for them would not be an issue, depending on tuition. Well, she decided college wasn't for her after a year and chose instead to go to cosmetology school. Yea, that is a "gentle" trade, unlike her dad who is an ironworker putting in 60 hour weeks at locations as much a 2 hours drive in all sorts of weather. So the college debt issue is sometimes a matter of choice, local state university or a prestigious out of state school. I say go to college at an affordable school if you like academics, it gives you more choices once you are ready to settle down.

One more issue with the construction trades: Generally you don't get paid vacation, it is up to you to take time off without pay. Tough to do.

[Mark Blatter]

Lots of interesting thoughts and comments, such as;

'Do what you love'

'Do what you are good at'

'Life is more than money'

For me, it took a few years to figure out what I really loved doing. It took me getting a four year degree, time in the Navy, then going to work for my father. Based on what I have learned over the past 59 years, I would still go to school but for a business degree focusing on entrepreneurship. Not sure they even existed when I was in school.

A friend's nephew went to a trade school in the late '90s for diesel mechanic. When he graduated he had a job waiting making close to $100,000 per year. If he was willing to work on the North Slopes in Alaska, he could have made close to $150,000 a year working about 8 months. However, my son went to school and graduated as a software engineer. He worked for the school's physics department doing networking, computer set up, etc. He graduated with no debt, and a bunch of money in the bank. All because he spent his high school years working with computers at my work, then two more years after that before heading to college.

My daughter got her BS in animal sciences, worked on a dairy for two years, than was offered a position at Montana State to get her masters under a full ride program that also paid her as a TA. She is back doing what she loves on a dairy with a masters and is in the top 5 for schooling at the dairy. Yet she doesn't make near what she should based on her masters, but is working with cows, which she loves.

The decision for trade v college is more about the person than anything else. You can make both work well, if you make good choices once on your path and work hard.

My father graduated high school only because the local principal made him an offer he couldn't pass up. Dad went into the Navy at 17, dropping out of school, in 1944. When he returned home in '46, the principal told him that if he would come back to school for his final year he would make sure he received his diploma and all he had to do was keep my Dad's younger brother in line. Tough job but someone had to do it. Dad worked hard his whole life, started a company at 56 and when he died was well off and did what he loved doing.

Brains will only take you so far, just as hard work will only do so much. Marry brains, passion and hard work with a dusting of luck and you end up like Buffet, Gates and others.

[Frederick Skelly]

I agree with several others - you need to train in something that will let you feed yourself and a family. IMO, its not right to slough off and live with your parents just because you're lazy. Whether you get that training at college business school, or through a trade scnool is a matter of your personal druthers, aptitude, etc.

If you go to college and study "something you love" that isnt very employable (art, music, philosophy, poetry, french literature, etc), you need to accept up front that you'll have to work in another field in order to move out of mom's basement. In fairness, some jobs only require a degree - they don't care what it's in. I know a highly paid salesmen who has an art degree and another with a philosophy degree.

[Paul McGaha]

I chose a trade. Electrical. I don't regret it.

I have (3) sons that also chose the electrical trade and I'd say they don't regret it either.

I'd say we've been compensated well compared with the work we do.

There is room for advancement in the trades. Progress into supervision, management, estimating.

I hope more people choose a trade. I think the industry needs the people.

I do have all the respect in the world though for people with college degrees. Takes a smart and industrious person to accomplish that.

PHM

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Too often we, as a society IMO, put too much pressure on our children to got to college when IMO not everyone is capable or has the drive to get a college degree. As pointed out some college degrees provide a realistic career path and income potential. I have 3 children, 2 have college degrees and one with some college. Of the two with degrees, one uses his doctorate and the other will retire from a profession totally unrelated to her degree. The one child with some college will soon retire from a local sheriff's department.

Too often in our society IMO we fail to pay proper respect for the trades and technical fields. In discussions with young people concerning careers I have often asked "Where do you picture yourself in the future? Where do you want to live? If you are going to raise a family where do want to do that?" Often when they say they'd like to live in little towns like Grangeville, ID or Riggins, ID, I recommend that instead of pursuing an electrical engineering degree, become an electrician because an electrician can find a job or start a business in those small towns. An electrical engineer will find it difficult to make a living in those same communities.

[Jerome Stanek]

My brother in law chose a trade it was concrete and after about 15 years his knees and back gave out so he went to cosmetology school and became a hair stylist he then went on to get his owners license now he owns a shop with 20 stylists nail salon and tanning booths My sister does the books. At one time she was the top sales person for a large printing company.

[Jim Koepke]

My mornings are usually watching new programs recorded on the previous day. My wife doesn't like to listen to the news most of the time. On one the host recounted a freshman counselor advising students who were required to declare a major before their sophomore year. The basic message was after college for the rest of their lives they would view the world through the lens of the educational path the chose.

Artists view life through artistic influence.

Philosophers see the world philosophically.

Accountants might see everything as a spreadsheet.

jtk

[michael langman]

I was advised to go into the Navy to be a Machinery Repairman, because my fellow workers saw I was good at measuring precisely with micrometers and spring calipers.
Working in the fleet machine shop, on a submarine tender, on lathes, mills,tool and cutter, cylindrical, and surface grinders, vertical and horizontal boring mills, honing machines, radial drill press, and other machines not seen in alot of places, I learned how to make just about any type of part needed for the support of fast attack nuclear submarines.
It was comparable to a formal apprenticeship and was an excellent oppertunity to learn a good trade.
The navy and the air force have good apprenticeship programs, if one is not wealthy enough to go to college. And you have the oppertunity to save some money for college while being enlisted.
If you try to learn as much as possible, and do good work you can advance quickly and come out of the service with a good background in whatever trade.
There are many more then just Machinery Repair.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I was advised to go into the Navy to be a Machinery Repairman, because my fellow workers saw I was good at measuring precisely with micrometers and spring calipers.
Working in the fleet machine shop, on a submarine tender, on lathes, mills,tool and cutter, cylindrical, and surface grinders, vertical and horizontal boring mills, honing machines, radial drill press, and other machines not seen in alot of places, I learned how to make just about any type of part needed for the support of fast attack nuclear submarines.
It was comparable to a formal apprenticeship and was an excellent oppertunity to learn a good trade.
The navy and the air force have good apprenticeship programs, if one is not wealthy enough to go to college. And you have the oppertunity to save some money for college while being enlisted.
If you try to learn as much as possible, and do good work you can advance quickly and come out of the service with a good background in whatever trade.
There are many more then just Machinery Repair.

Michael, the last 8 months of my 8 years in the Navy, I was stationed on a sub-tender, the USS Orion, AS-18. I lived aboard as I left my family in Illinois so the 3 kids wouldn't have to change schools twice in one year. In the evenings I would go down to the machine shops and watch the machine repairmen mill metal parts for the subs. I enjoyed watching them a lot!

[michael langman]

Ken, Yes, the Machine shop on a tender is quite a shop. The lathes and mills were some of the best, made in our country. The diversity of work was what made the apprenticeship so interesting and challenging.
The rest of the tender was just as interesting. Everything from an optical, gauge shop to rubber and plastics. And as you may know, the food was outstanding.

[Terry Lewis]

Originally Posted by Keith OuttenSome college grads are so deep in debt they will never pay back their loans. At the same time they my never own a home because of their educational debt. If your going to borrow money you had better be in a field that can provide a serious salary with growth potential. I have two daughters and personal knowledge concerning their college loans.


Being happy in your job is of little consequence if you cannot pay your bills and your future looks pretty bleak.


A young friend of mine went into the trades long enough to get his masters license to write my essay (https://writemyessaytoday.net/) in multiple disciplines and then started his own business. He has done extremely well over the years and at 40 years old has a new home that is paid for and savings beyond imagination. He is now able to work a reduced schedule and living on easy street. Demand for his services is at an all time high.

Hello Keith,

I know that you mean. My elder grandson is now finishing his third year at The University of New Orleans. He applied for the Homer Hitt scholarship, but didn't pass the exam, so he was left with the tuition debt which I partially covered (thanks to my military pension). However, it's the only positive moment for him and me now.


Terry

[Günter VögelBerg]

I went to college. I regret it. If I had it to do over again I would learn a trade, probably electrical or metal fabricating. I came here as an immigrant in my teenage years and at the time did not necessarily plan on staying. I wanted to go to college and go home. Well, that was 20 years ago and I now happily call America home. I just wish I spent my days doing something more interesting that project management at a technology company.

That said, USA could stand to learn quite a bit from the old continent, especially Germany, about producing skilled tradespeople, and the old continent could learn quite a bit from North America about giving young people choices.

[Ole Anderson]

A lot of the excessive debt load for college grads is about choices. Going to a cool prestigious school with $50 k per year tuition and housing vs a very good state university at half of the cost. Applying for as many scholarships as possible vs just signing on for a student loan. Relying on your credit card for day to day expenses and taking plenty of time to party vs having a part time job to cover those expenses.

[Brian Tymchak]

I went to college for 4+ years (changed major 1/2 way thru) but back when it was much more affordable. Having recently retired from an IT career (software development), I can say that there is less emphasis on a 4 yr degree in an IT curriculum vs being able to demonstrate skills. Technnical certifications can be as valuable as a undergrad degree. Find certifications for data scientist, Amazon web services, Java programming and that is a very hire-able skill set. Throw in a few lessor certifications in networking, service-based architecture, etc and that would be gold. However, an undergrad degree does become very helpful to teach critical thinking and decision making. It also provides a broader based education that was beneficial at various times in my career. It gives the student some exposure to other fields which can provide inspiration in various ways.

[Thomas Wilson]

I went to the North Avenue Trade School, an epithet for Georgia Tech intended to be disparaging by some University [sic] of Georgia student. The fine young men on the Plains embraced the name and printed tee-shirts.

Some majors are more like trade school than others. The engineering majors are tailor-made to put on a resume for a specific kind of job, almost like a trade. I personally maxed out on degrees at Tech and had a nice career effectively doing other people's math homework for good money. It suited me well and paid the bills. My advanced degrees were paid for by fellowships and research assistantships. I had no debt. I liked going to school and I got to do some fun research while in school. I got to truly beat two subjects to death in a master's thesis and a PhD dissertation. Looking back it was fun. At the time, I thought I was going to die.

...Let me just add that the math skills I needed for the job I did are really only available at the college level. I am self-taught on many, many subjects, including woodworking, but the math I needed was really deep. Georgia Tech is a school built on and devoted to homework, and then research which is homework without answers in the back of the book. Guidance and textbooks are the only way to get to the level where you are able solve engineering problems that have never been solved before. ...

What you might say is a PhD in engineering good for? Well, I might not be able to fix your car but I can come with at least three good theories of what might be wrong.

TW

[Al Launier]

Mike Rowe's opinion; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVEuPmVAb8o

Good reference John. Mike provides good insight into the problem of "what to do & how to get there", i.e. know yourself first, then proceed.

There is much written & spoken about what one should choose for a lifetime work career, but less emphasis is made on seriously studying what the future of the job market(s) will hold as the world evolves; in the trades field, the arts, science and technology. No one has a working crystal ball, but reviewing the latest trends and projecting them into the future as possible choices should help guide one's decision.

The world has developed to an enormous extent in a very short period of "historical" time. Former traditional & very worthwhile careers have, or are reaching their useful lives. Look at what has evolved over the past 100 years, a relatively short time, and then anticipate where man's ingenuity will take us next, and what will be needed to support the future of mankind. In my opinion the future belongs to the exploration of space and beyond. Many of the trades and technologies will evolve accordingly, requiring new & different skill sets. Research the future!

[Ron Selzer]

(One more issue with the construction trades: Generally you don't get paid vacation, it is up to you to take time off without pay. Tough to do.)

Locals I have been familiar with in Ohio while working the construction trade the last 30+ yrs have a separate fund that x amount an hr worked goes into for vacation, holidays, etc..HOWEVER most locals the workers can withdraw the money out of the bank each week as soon as it is put in and a lot of them do! Then they complain how they don't get paid if they don't work. One local down by the Ohio River in an area that is very rural pays the money out once a year with NOTICE TO THE SPOUSE AHEAD of the payment. Amazing how those guys go on vacation way more often. Good HVAC mechanics get premium over contracted rate, plus extra paid vacation time, plus new van to change companies, also for staying where they are at. ANY company can pay a worker higher than scale to recruit or retain a tradesmen, HOWEVER they can not pay lower no matter how bad the worker is.

[Brian Elfert]

My employer has a group of several hundred professional workers in a union. Workers in the union can only max out at 110% of scale. (I am not in a union.)

[Mike Henderson]

I was talking to a plumber friend of mine last week. He's in his 50's. He was complaining about the various aches and pains he has. He said, "When you start in a trade they tell you that the work will make you strong. That's BS. It eventually breaks you down."

Some people who learn a trade eventually start a business and then they hire people to do the grunt work. But most obviously don't do that and try to keep working into their senior years. Additionally, I expect many do not make enough to set aside a significant amount for retirement so they have to keep working.

I got an engineering degree. I worked in a clean, air conditioned office, and worked on interesting problems. I was well compensated and had benefits, such as an employer paid pension, health insurance, paid vacation, 401K with employer match, etc. I had the weekends off. I also got to travel the world on my employer's tab (for business).

If a young person has the interest and capability I would strongly recommend getting a university degree, especially if it's a STEM degree. Finance and accounting graduates also seem to do well.

Mike

[If I was to offer advice to a young person, it would be work hard while you're young, especially in your studies, and you can have a reasonably easy older life. Or don't work hard while you're young and you'll work hard for the rest of your life.]

[jared herbert]

I graduated from high school in 1969. At the time it was either go to college or get drafted. I went to a good state university, worked my way through and graduated 4 years later with a degree in industrial engineering. I took a job in my field with Pella window company. It was not a real good fit. After a year and a half I had the opportunity to start farming with my dad. Eventually I bought him out and farmed for 41 years. I know there was a lot of talk behind my back amongst the neighbors that I wasted 4 years ofschooling, etc etc. I didn’t look at it that way. The decision making and analysis skills that I learned in the engineering business served me well in the ag business. I don’t regret either choice at all. I retired 3 years ago, have a substantial net worth and can do whatever I want to. The thing I am really glad for is that I am in good health and haven’t needed any joint replacement surgeries like most of my contemporaries have had. That is the real down side to a job that requires a lot of physical work

[Roger Feeley]

Do what you love. If that's engineering, great. If it's carpentry, equally great.

Back in another life, I taught high school. We had this kid, Hunter, who wanted to be a carpenter. But his dad was a lawyer so Hunter was going to be one too. His dad was also president of the school board and he bullied HS teachers to make Hunter's college application better. Hunter went to college and dropped out after a couple of semesters. I lost track after that.

My school district was a very affluent suburban one and was very proud of the college admission rate of 80%. A counselor told me our dirty little secret. A full 60% of that 80% never made it to their sophomore year. So our school set 48% of their graduates up for failure.

[Terry Kelly]

I went to Junior College for a year then went on to get electronic engineering degree....at the time of my graduation there weren’t many engineering jobs available in what interested me personally I took a job back at home more like a electronic tech position.....after a year and a half I knew it was a dead end I had started to take some more classes towards electrical side of things and eventually got into the IBEW,I’ve been a Journeyman Wireman for 25 years it was the Best decision I made. My college education probably gave me an edge getting accepted into the apprenticeship. Fortunately my education was around 40k and it has long been paid for but it return has been more than worth it. So in my case I’ve done both and ended up going the trade route in the end..... My son was set to go to school for mechanical engineering in his junior year of high school,during his senior year he decided that he wanted to go for the trades and is now a Pipefitter apprentice. I really wanted him to go to school but in the end he has to do what makes him happy....

[Mike Henderson]

My school district was a very affluent suburban one and was very proud of the college admission rate of 80%. A counselor told me our dirty little secret. A full 60% of that 80% never made it to their sophomore year. So our school set 48% of their graduates up for failure.

The problem I've seen with certain high schools is that they aren't demanding enough. They allow the students to coast along and still get high grades.

Then, when those kids go to a real university they are not prepared for the work and dedication required to succeed. They think they can just coast like they did in high school and, of course, they can't. University is a different world than high school. It's a shame that many high schools don't really prepare the kids for what they will encounter in college.

[Added: the competition is totally different. A student who was considered bright in high school finds that there's a lot of bright kids in college, many smarter and harder working than they are. Instead of being an academic leader they're just back in the pack somewhere.

Some state universities have tried to avoid issues with admissions by automatically admitting the top 5% of any high school in the state. But some of those high schools are pretty bad and the top students at those schools are not at all prepared for university studies. But the university gets to show that it's admitting a cross section of the population, even though they know some of those kids will never survive to graduate.

Helping a bright kid from a poor family has to start early. Offering them a scholarship to a top university means nothing if they have not received the preparation that will allow them to succeed in that environment.]

Mike

[Frederick Skelly]

The problem I've seen with certain high schools is that they aren't demanding enough. They allow the students to coast along and still get high grades.

Then, when those kids go to a real university they are not prepared for the work and dedication required to succeed. They think they can just coast like they did in high school and, of course, they can't. University is a different world than high school. It's a shame that many high schools don't really prepare the kids for what they will encounter in college.

[Added: the competition is totally different. A student who was considered bright in high school finds that there's a lot of bright kids in college, many smarter and harder working than they are. Instead of being an academic leader they're just back in the pack somewhere.

Some state universities have tried to avoid issues with admissions by automatically admitting the top 5% of any high school in the state. But some of those high schools are pretty bad and the top students at those schools are not at all prepared for university studies. But the university gets to show that it's admitting a cross section of the population, even though they know some of those kids will never survive to graduate.

Helping a bright kid from a poor family has to start early. Offering them a scholarship to a top university means nothing if they have not received the preparation that will allow them to succeed in that environment.]

Mike

+1. All good points Mike.

[Ron Citerone]

That said, USA could stand to learn quite a bit from the old continent, especially Germany, about producing skilled tradespeople, and the old continent could learn quite a bit from North America about giving young people choices.

I had a career as an Industrial Arts teacher. Your perspective is very profound, and I think you nailed it!

[Carroll Courtney]

Yrs ago I was told that you have two choices,you can choose your career or a career can choose you.Which I fell under the second,but its not my fault:) I was not college material and if I was I still would not know what to do even if I did have brains. I think problem is college education is such a big business that in high schools its drill into heads that student has to go.(Work in main dept for school district) so all over the schools from middle to high school is college banners.Well back to the top of this post,lot of kids are not college material. I know I wish I was and I'm sure lot of others wish the same cause like Mike Henderson saying in first post its not easy life in trade. When your young you don't notice it which I was a union electrician working on bldgs downtown. None of the other trades were easy which electrical was better I think. You want to be Iron Worker,try walking a 4x4 on ground then think about walking a beam lets say 10 floors up. Carpenter in commercial trade still not easy and like any trade dangerous. Plumbers well your down in hole or running pipe overhead,same for Pipe Fitters.Anyway the list goes on about the physical part of it. But keep in mind the summers,winters, which winters you may be setting at home cause job shut down,do you get paid heck no you don't. Like my old boss told me when I needed a day off he told me " Take off as much you can afford" Again a trade is not easy as you get older.Safety? Well you go to meetings you watch films,you practice safety but people still die. While working downtown on bldg I was working in the Atrium area which is open area on third floor saw a Glazer fall to his death only 20yrs old. Another job saw a Manitowoc Crane cable break while they were lowering boom which cable hit one of guys that all he does is oil,grease crane. So no guarantees in trade field that you be around next day. Now for the most part or for me there are no paid vacations,no sick leave,no PB's days and very small retirement if ones with degree invest your money wisely. Like others have said in trade field while out there learn all you can and keep up to date with bldg practice then start your own business if you got the drive. Keep in mind that construction is like the weather one day its sunny skis and then next you be asking where did all work go,no work well no pay. But when the economic is good so is the work. Thats why you will see lot of business doing more than one trade so maybe they will have work yr round. So what is the point of all this,get a degree none of it is easy.At lease if you have degree and you go into a trade you be boss or its your company. In the trade no one is going to get rich nor have lots of those benefits unless its your company and business is good. Life is tough when you make living from shoulders down,but just enough that a person can do little wwing sometimes:)