Girls Scouts vs Boy Scouts when it comes to Woodworking Badge - my rumblings.

[Flamone LaChaud]

So I have a son and a daughter involved in Scouts, and the leader of the Girl Scout Troop said that the troop wanted to do the woodworking badge next, and if I'd help with getting a simple project together for the girls. I said sure, figuring that it was somewhat similar to the Boy Scout woodworking badge requirements. After I got home and got on the Googles to see what the requirements were, my SWMBO suggested that I go take a walk before I had a coronary.


I mean, I get it that presumption is that girls are not trained / exposed / expected to learn about tools and maintenance in their formative years, so they might be starting from a position of having less practical experience. My daughter kept getting invited to be involved when I was making her bedroom furniture - and I dare say she maybe spent a total of 60 minutes during the 120+ hours of the build assisting, and most of that was helping clean the shop. When it came to cutting, measuring, etc . . . she magically disappeared. So it's not like she didn't have the opportunity to learn, but at that time she lacked the interest. If that's the norm - I can see why there would need to be more of a ramp up in "getting to know your tools" to properly earn a Woodworking badge.


However, let me summarize the 5 sections of the Girl Scouts Woodworking badge as opposed to the first 5 (of 7) sections of the Boy Scouts Woodworking badge:


First Step:
Girl Scouts - Swing a Hammer - learn how to properly use a hammer by hammering nails into a piece of scrap lumber - Draw a shape on the wood and outline it in nails.
Boy Scouts - Explain what hazards you might encounter while doing woodworking, and what you can do to anticipate/prevent/mitigate and respond to those hazards. Show that you know the first aid for any injuries that can happen during woodworking, Tell what precautions must be taken to prevent loss of eyesight/hearing, and why a dust mask is important.


Second Step:
Girl Scouts - Keep It Level. Learn how to make sure your work is level and plumb. Borrow a level and use that level to check things around the house or your meeting area. Straighten any pictures or wall hangings that might be askew, check things like floors/counters/rails to see how they measure up.
Boy Scouts - Describe how timber is grown, harvested, and milled. Tell how lumber is cured, seasoned, and sized. Collect and label blocks of 6 different species of wood useful in woodworking, describing the chief qualities of each and best uses of each.


Third Step:
Girl Scouts - Attach it, Detach it. Using either a screwdriver or power drill (or both), drill six screws into a piece of scrap wood. How can you unscrew those screws?
Boy Scouts - Show the proper care, use, and storage of all the woodworkign tools and equipment that you own or use at home/school. Sharpen correctly the cutting edges of two different tools.


Fourth Step:
Girl Scouts - Saw the Alphabet. Use a miter saw to saw some wood so that you can build letters.
Boy Scouts - Using only a saw, plane, hammer, brace&bit - make something useful out of wood. Cut parts from lumber that you have squared and measured from working drawings.


Fifth Step:
Girl Scouts - Build yourself Something. Work with your expert to find a project idea - birdhouses, picture frames, benches or small bookcases.
Boy Scouts - Create your own woodworking project. Begin by making working drawings, materials list - and then build it. Keep track of the time you spend and cost of materials.


Now, I look at these two side by side - and I rumble mightily. In my humble opinion - one of the main benefits of this badge should not be just another badge on the scarf - it should be practically getting familiar with tools and the independence that knowing how to use tools bring. These girls may never do casework, cabinetwork, or build their own house . . . which is fine. But I see a gap where practical tool use could be added to help make them more ready for life - whether doing crafts or just general household maintenance.


So my question, and I'm especially interested in the female woodworkers opinion - am I setting my expectations too high? If you had to make changes to the badge criteria/progression, either adding elements, removing elements, what would they be?

[lowell holmes]

I would contact a local Boy Scout troop and see if they could find a way to let girls go to some of their classes.

[Lisa Starr]

Absolutely they should much more equivalent. I was fortunate to grow up in a house with woodworking opportunities for both males and females. My brother and I both enjoy it, though we do different types of projects. My sister on the other hand calls me to hang a picture. How can a Girl Scout even assess whether she has interest in woodworking with that ridiculously lame expectation.

[Matt Day]

The girls should have the same coursework as the boys. Girls need to be taught they can do anything boys can do and to have the confidence to do so.

Sounds like the scouts are living in the past, as we’ve found out over the past few years for other reasons.

[roger wiegand]

Based on the curriculum requirements I don't see why you can't do essentially exactly the same thing for both groups. Yes, there are slight differences (where do you even find a brace and bit these days?), and boys that grow up to do construction could certainly use that lesson on levels. Both groups need to learn something about wood and tools and then make something, as I read it. It's up to the advisor to make that a meaningful experience, the requirements provide only the barest bones.

Yes, the Boy Scouts do have a tendency to be more prescriptive in their requirements, I'm not sure that's a good thing. In our troop steps 1, 2 , and 3 for the boys would have gotten pretty short shrift-- a total of 10 minutes effort for all three. The emphasis was always on getting them doing something physical.

[Jim Becker]

I would contact a local Boy Scout troop and see if they could find a way to let girls go to some of their classes.

She can likely join the "boy" scouts formally, too...BSA is no longer gender specific.

[Bill Dufour]

I see the girls starting to us their hands and do something from day one. The boys have three book work things to do before they touch any tools. Yes the girl projects are lame, but at least they are using tools.

[Stan Calow]

Is there a cooking badge? It would be interesting to see how the requirements differ there. You have to assume that the requirements were set up that way for a reason and based on experience of what to expect from kids at that age.

[Matt Day]

Is there a cooking badge? It would be interesting to see how the requirements differ there. You have to assume that the requirements were set up that way for a reason and based on experience of what to expect from kids at that age.

Age matters of course, but gender should not. Boys should learn cooking too. I didn’t learn until my mid 20’s.

[Stan Calow]

Age matters of course, but gender should not. Boys should learn cooking too. I didn’t learn until my mid 20’s.

Agreed! When I was in 5-6th grade in the '60s, everyone took shop class and home economics - basically cooking. Boys and girls. As I recall boys were just as inept, unskilled and uninterested in cooking, as the girls were in shop. Its what the culture had already taught us to be. Just like girls were supposed to hate math and science. I think I flunked cinnamon toast and hot chocolate.

[Flamone LaChaud]

Yes, there are slight differences (where do you even find a brace and bit these days?)

At my house, and my dad's house. Yes I have corded and uncorded drills, but sometimes it's better to take it slow.


Both groups need to learn something about wood and tools and then make something, as I read it. It's up to the advisor to make that a meaningful experience, the requirements provide only the barest bones.

Agreed, that's what I'm trying to navigate. I don't want to go in there and totally take over and poo on their current badge criteria . . .just mostly. Yes they start with getting their hands on tools earlier, but I'm thinking that as they are introduced to the tools - there could be a significant nod to the boy's version as far as safety goes for starters.


In our troop steps 1, 2 , and 3 for the boys would have gotten pretty short shrift-- a total of 10 minutes effort for all three. The emphasis was always on getting them doing something physical.

To be fair, you can breeze through the first two sections for the boys in about 10 minutes, which for the younger boy scouts is about the limits of their attention span, especially my son. My thoughts is that yes, both groups need to be physically doing something, and there's no harm in discussing safety and first aid while teaching them about various tools . . .and as for the girls, seems like a pretty good idea to start with "This is the project that everyone will be doing, and there will be steps where you will need all these various tools - hammer, level, screwdriver, drill, saw, etc . . .". That way all the requirements will be met, but there's always a goal in mind and the girls will gain a bit more appreciation about how, where, and why to use a particular tool . . . rather than "nail nails into a board making a pattern." Nothing wrong with that, but I'd argue at this stage - not enough right about it. But I could be biased . . . .

[Flamone LaChaud]

Agreed, I had to learn to cook and do housework when I was 10 . . . and I'm still a better cook than my sister.

[Gary Ragatz]

Is there a cooking badge? It would be interesting to see how the requirements differ there. You have to assume that the requirements were set up that way for a reason and based on experience of what to expect from kids at that age.

Boy Scouts does have a cooking merit badge - in fact, it's one of the original merit badges, created in 1911, and it's one of the dozen or so that is required to become an Eagle Scout.

The requirements for the cooking badge are pretty extensive, and run sort of parallel to those for the woodworking badge:
(1) Health and safety
(2) Nutrition
(3) Cooking basics
(4) Cooking at home - plan a menu for a breakfast, lunch and dinner; prepare shopping lists for each and cost out each meal; prepare each meal for at least one adult; demonstrate you can manage your time to serve the meal when promised
(5) Camp cooking - plan a menu for a breakfast, lunch, dinner and snack to be served to the troop; prepare shopping lists and cost out each meal; prepare two of the meals, outdoors, using camping equipment
(6) Trail and backpacking meals - similar to camp cooking, but no refrigeration allowed
(7) Food related careers - learn about three career opportunities in cooking (education, training, experience, etc.)

Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are separate organizations, and seem to have a very different approach to merit badges. The Boy Scout badge requirements look very much like what you might see for some type of professional certification - identify knowledge and skills required; demonstrate a level of proficiency in those knowledge and skills in a prescribed way.

[Lee DeRaud]

Is there a cooking badge? It would be interesting to see how the requirements differ there.Well, based on the woodworking example, I'd suspect something like:

Boy Scouts -
Step 1: build a fire
Step 2: boil water
Step 3: make PB&J sandwich
...

Girl Scouts -
Step 1: write a biography of Martha Stewart
Step 2: sew pouch for grocery coupons
Step 3: use the word "kale" in a sentence
...

[Brian Elfert]

Boy Scout camps also allow Girl Scout troops to camp there. I have had limited exposure to the girl scouts, but I have seen them doing crafts and having nail painting sessions.

The Boy Scouts haven't done the best job explaining the whole boy/girl thing even to members, but my understanding is once girls in the program reach Boy Scout age the boys and girls go into troops separated by sex.

[Jim Becker]

The Boy Scouts haven't done the best job explaining the whole boy/girl thing even to members, but my understanding is once girls in the program reach Boy Scout age the boys and girls go into troops separated by sex.

I don't believe that's correct...but I could be wrong. I have no game in this hunt; however, I certainly hope there is no segregation by gender as that defeats the purpose of being inclusive.

[Brian Elfert]

I don't believe that's correct...but I could be wrong. I have no game in this hunt; however, I certainly hope there is no segregation by gender as that defeats the purpose of being inclusive.

Cub Scouting is co-ed, however once they leave Cub Scouts the program splits into separate boy and girl troops. It took me a bit of digging to find the following on the Scouting website:

"Using the same curriculum as the Boy Scouts program, Scouts BSA is scheduled to launch in February 2019, enabling all eligible youth ages 11-17, to earn the Eagle Scout rank. Scouts BSA will be single gender – all girl troops or all boy troops. This unique approach allows the organization to maintain the integrity of the single-gender model while also meeting the needs of today’s families."

[Jim Becker]

That's disappointing to me, but I guess it's a subjective thing.

[Brian Elfert]

I suspect the reason has mostly to do with youth protection. They probably figure the mixing of males and females in that age range could lead to issues.

The national Scouting organization may file bankruptcy due to all the sex abuse cases from 60s, 70s, and early 80s. Youth protection was implemented in 1988 or 1989 to help stop sexual abuse. They take youth protection seriously. Our troop got a visit from higher ups because someone had reported an adult going into a shower with a boy. It turned out to be a father with his son so it was okay.

[Jim Becker]

I understand that's likely the thinking, but it doesn't actually solve the problem. Only societal change will do that...and education... But we have gotten off the original topic here, anyway.

[Roger Feeley]

My take from the boy scout requirements are that you would have a tough time finding someone with a brace and bit. I gave my dads B&B away a long time ago.

all due respect to the neanders out there.

[Doug Weiner]

Gender based education is just plain foolish. Back in the day as in the 1970’s I took electric shop instead of typing. Made sense then since I was planning to be a secretary. I can rewire an electric outlet but I’ve spent the last 35 years banging away at a keyboard with three finger typing.

[Roger Feeley]

It seems to me that the objective of both badges should be to build the necessary confidence to be an apt learner. If the scout, after completing the badge, doesn't say, "oh, I could never do that" but says, "I've never done it but I bet I could." then the badge effort has been worthwhile.

I attended a class at Home Depot once on putting up tile. I didn't exit the class knowing everything I needed to know but I did think, "Yeah, I can do this." To me, that teacher did his job.

[Lee DeRaud]

I attended a class at Home Depot once on putting up tile. I didn't exit the class knowing everything I needed to know but I did think, "Yeah, I can do this." To me, that teacher did his job.There's usually the "if he can do it, anybody can" effect in play there.

[Biff Phillips]

g
That's disappointing to me, but I guess it's a subjective thing.

Jim, it's just not feasible to have Boy Scouts be completely coed.
Remember the ages are something like 11-18.
How are you going to do an overnight co-ed camping trip when the mixed genders are in puberty?
What about issues of a leader being a different gender than the kids?
It would be nice in an ideal world to mix them at all ages, but it's a liability issue.

It's hard enough to get parents to volunteer to be leaders.. the troop my kids were in required
many hours of training, background checks, and other invasions of privacy.. I understand, the scouts
have to protect themselves, but it sure makes it more difficult to get volunteers. Then to ask parents
to watch a mixed gender program? What happens parents accuse the troop of letting her daughter get pregnant on an outing? It doesn't matter if that's what actually happened, there will be a lot of outrage.

[Jim Becker]

Bill, so-called "church camps" have been doing coed experiences since even before I was a kid in the 1970s so I just don't buy that to be a problem that isn't solvable. All of this is is societal gridlock that is learned and it's all also solvable if folks actually want to do it. In fact, gender based segregation actually reinforces inappropriate behaviors, IMHO. I'm not the only one who feels this way, but I also understand and accept that others may take the opposite view. And just to be clear, separate "housing" is certainly appropriate, but separate educational experiences do not have to be the norm.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Keep in mind that the Girl scout curriculum was probably developed by women and assuming that women scout leaders will be in charge. I see it as a prime example of sexism in dumbing down by stereotype that females are not capable of certain tasks. When I took part in reenactments, the only way to afford the period garb was if I made it myself. So I bought a sewing machine and had my MIL give me some basic lessons. I started sewing outfits for me, the kids and my wife. Neither my wife or MIL, could figure out how it did it without buying patterns. To me it was like constructing a dog house. I didn't need a pattern to build a dog house. I took an existing piece of their clothes that fit, made some measurements, allowed an extra amount for seams and started cutting and sewing. I even made the buttons and fasteners from deer antler or sea shells. I do not understand why the girl scout's program for wood working is as it is, but, at least they have one. My wood turners club is picking up women members at the rate of about one woman for every three new men. When I started three years ago, there were only two, now about a ten. One of them makes incredible finials.

Another observation, like many hobbies, wood working is no longer the thing most fathers in the 1950's did out in the garage for recreation. It has become rather specialized at a time, when hobbyists of all kinds seem to be dropping in population due to competition from TV, computers, attendance to their kids sports and the strains of job demands. But as more and more men seem to be vegetating in front of the TV or Computer, a growing number of women are taking up traditionally male hobbies. at our club, it seems to be a trend for the very young women (high school to beginning college) or the new empty nestors looking for something to do with their time.