shaper cutter for painted cabinet doors?

[andy photenas]

Hello all, I have been getting a lot of kitchen jobs where the customer wants solid colors. I finally found a good source near me for conversion varnish in any color i want.
After reading it seems all solid wood rail and stile doors will show hairline cracks with time at the joint.
I know you can use 5 piece mdf doors to stop this totally but I would much rather use solid maple with a mdf panel only.(shaker style doors)
I have seen a few pics with a bevel in the joint like an expansion joint. Does anyone know how to buy shaper bits like this? or if not how to go about adding this bevel?
and is the bevel a good idea or a bad one ! ?

[Edward Dyas]

It just goes with painted doors for it to eventually see the seam. It does the same thing on stained doors but you don't see it. It had to do more with wood movement than the finish. A conversion varnish is about as good as it gets for a cabinet finish. It dries hard and waterproof.

Another note: MDF because it's literally paper doesn't do well in wet locations like a kitchen. It's also very hard on carbide cutters

[J.R. Rutter]

One of the keys to getting good joints that don't show under finish is to get glue into the end grain along the whole length of the joint at the surface. The shaker type profile I've had the best luck with for this has a steep bevel around the inside of the frame rather than a square edge. I had some inserts and backers made for a set of universal heads that is 20 degrees off of square. It is just easier to get glue all along the joint without much (if any) squeeze out on the inside edge to clean out. The second key is giving the glue lines enough time to dry before sanding them flush. We try to time these so that they can sit over the weekend before widebelting them.

[andy photenas]

Well thanks for the input guys. Both are good points to figure in. from what i have read online nearly all sources agree that the lines will show now matter how much glue you put on. So a disclaimer to make the customer aware seems the best way to be safe! after they agree its a non issue. I may make a bit profile that puts a bevel on the top of the cope cut to see if that would make a good looking crack where its bound to happen anyway.
J R Rutter I am also listing to what your saying about the glue and i always leave 24 hrs dry time. my finish looks perfect when im done atm. but after reading online i want to be carefull, i have enough worries ! :)

[J.R. Rutter]

I've got a set that does the v-groove where the copes meet (and a tiny matching bevel around the inside of the frame) and the tricky part with them is that the sqeeze-out is harder to clean. For stain grade, 24 hours of drying time is fine, but longer is better for where the glue lines really stand out, like under paint.

[Jeff Duncan]

JR is right on here.... Factory doors always show lines and usually before the kitchen install is finished! I have kitchen doors that are 16 years old in my kitchen and still haven't opened up. It's all in how you make the doors. I use plenty of glue, clamp for at least half and hour, and don't sand for at least 24 hours after, though I usually shoot for a couple days dry time when possible.

good luck,
jeffd

[Peter Quinn]

We use titebond II for almost everything....full cure is 78 hours? I've seen guys sanding doors in the afternoon they clamped up in the morning, not the recipe for success. I like to glue my rails first, let them tack up a bit, then all the stiles, then go back and reapply to rails, real quick, just part of the process, it sort of seals that thirsty end grain from starving the joint. Its similar to the suggestion to apply glue sizing (watered down first coat) to all end grain with pocket screwed face frames, a sized then re-glued butt joint is like 85% as strong as a half lap surprisingly. Then let them hang out 3 days minimum, which is easier if you have multiple jobs running, but you can almost always build that logic into your production. I build frames, then doors, assemble cases last as they take up valuable space, so I'm building boxes, shelves etc while doors are curing. We've had the occasional hair line despite best practices, its wood ultimately. I'd frankly rather look at the occasional hair line in the paint or even do a repair than have all my doors look like low budget factory stuff, to me that paint break is to compensate for less than ideal production methods and its visually distracting on a whole kitchen, but to each their own.

Freud and freeborn both offer cutters with a paint break option, I'm sure others would grind you corrugated knives to do similar, or freeborn does great custom work, nearly double the cost of a set. IIR garniga also offers that option in insert sets. I've had the occasional job where it was required and I added it mechanically with a sanding block, or you could set up a 1/16" radius round over or small chamfer cutter on a router table with the bearing removed and post ground off to get past the stub tenon and use the sets you have now. We have the freud RS-1000 kicking around the shop, some fo those inserts feature a small paint break, think door thickness is limited to 13/16"?

[lowell holmes]

I would look for new shaper cutters.

https://www.google.com/search?q=shaper+cutters&oq=shaper+cutter&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0l3j69i60.13111j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[andy photenas]

thanks again all so much great stuff to think over! I guess it comes down to knowing the options and telling people before you start building.

[Mike Cutler]

Okay, I know that someone always to ask the dumb question. So here goes;
What is a paint break?

[Bradley Gray]

a paint break is a joint that is chamfered to make the crack in the paint look deliberate.

[Gary Ragatz]

Well thanks for the input guys. Both are good points to figure in. from what i have read online nearly all sources agree that the lines will show now matter how much glue you put on. So a disclaimer to make the customer aware seems the best way to be safe! after they agree its a non issue. I may make a bit profile that puts a bevel on the top of the cope cut to see if that would make a good looking crack where its bound to happen anyway.
J R Rutter I am also listing to what your saying about the glue and i always leave 24 hrs dry time. my finish looks perfect when im done atm. but after reading online i want to be carefull, i have enough worries ! :)

Andy,

We built a new home ~ 3 years ago, and went with white Shaker-style cabinets in the kitchen - solid maple rails and stiles, with MDF panels. Our builder had us sign a disclaimer, at least twice, acknowledging that cracks would likely appear, and that this is not a defect.

A few cracks show up each winter, when the humidity is low. Doesn't bother us, but I'm glad that the builder made a point of it, up front. The paint break seems like it would be a good way to minimize the effect - but I'd go with the disclaimer, regardless.

[roger wiegand]

The whole point of a frame and panel door is to allow the panel to move independently of the frame. Having the panels look painted in is very unnatural and contrary to the design of the system. Absence of cracks around the panel screams "fake".

If I were making a painted cabinet I'd paint the panel and frame separately prior to assembly to allow the panel to move without exposing bare wood or making uneven cracks.

[Mark Daily]

Okay, I know that someone always to ask the dumb question. So here goes;
What is a paint break?
Mike, the only dumb question is the one you don’t ask. :)

[Mike Cutler]

Mike, the only dumb question is the one you don’t ask. :)

I kind of figured that was what they were talking about. when someone said that their shaper cutter set had the paint break worked into the profile. But,you never know.
I always learn new things here that I can apply.

[Mark Daily]

I kind of figured that was what they were talking about. when someone said that their shaper cutter set had the paint break worked into the profile. But,you never know.
I always learn new things here that I can apply.
Yep- no point in guessing when you can get the straight poop right here.

[Mark Bolton]

Okay, I know that someone always to ask the dumb question. So here goes;
What is a paint break?

Go look at commodity home center cabs. They are most always assembled post-finish. The sticking is all complete pre-fin, panels are pre-fin, large radi' at the panel to sticking, There is a dark joint at the rail/stile striaght out of the box, for a reason. They have taken a cue from the NYW workshop of trying to hide a joint or celebrate the joint. Again, they control the offering and their customers buy it all day long accepting it as normal. There is rarely a display in the homecenter that I dont walk by that doesnt look like plastic cut and hot glued together.

I can drive a stake in the ground all I want looking for the last few stragglers who dont want that, or just walk away from residential boxes as a whole. You can have all the disclaimers you want and you as the maker will be held to a standard that the big boxes will get away with every day of the week. You could provide mockups, time tested mockups showing celebrated joints, and they would get a pass and you will be held to the fire.

[J.R. Rutter]

The whole point of a frame and panel door is to allow the panel to move independently of the frame. Having the panels look painted in is very unnatural and contrary to the design of the system. Absence of cracks around the panel screams "fake".

If I were making a painted cabinet I'd paint the panel and frame separately prior to assembly to allow the panel to move without exposing bare wood or making uneven cracks.

We're talking about the rail/stile joint where the crossgrain usually ends up showing a hairline crack. This is separate from the whole panel movement issue, though your points are well taken.

[roger wiegand]

Oops-- someday I'll learn to read more carefully!

[andy photenas]

knowing all of this before will save trouble no matter how you end up choosing to go. Thanks again my fellow woodworkers for the info/power!

[lowell holmes]

https://www.google.com/search?q=bandsaw+mobile+base&oq=bandsaw+mobile+base&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.10646j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[J.R. Rutter]

https://www.google.com/search?q=bandsaw+mobile+base&oq=bandsaw+mobile+base&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.10646j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

classic lowell, lol.