"Drop cutting" on a shaper

[Jack Hovanec]

Hey guys,
I am working on a project that requires three mahogany stop-fluted half columns. The columns are 6 3/4 wide and I already got a knife ground that will do two flutes at a time (There are 4 total flutes on the face, 1/2" radius).
My question is: how does one safely and efficiently "drop cut" on a shaper while the material is on edge, and then terminate the cut before the end? I ran a couple of trials just by using the end of my fence as a pivot but the shaper really wants to grab ahold of the material. Anyone have a jig for this? I know the best way to do this would be a W&H style molder but I don't have one.
Thanks
Jack

[ChrisA Edwards]

I would like to do something similar to match some existing house trim. I have a shaper and also have a ShopFox Moulder, just curious how you would do it on a W&M Moulder with a continuous power feed.

Just thinking about this, if I was to do it on my shaper, I would make multiple, very shallow cuts that would allow me to pivot in the left end and pivot out the right end.

Another thought, using a power feeder and a complete sacrificial fence, first would be to mark where the cut should start and end on the left and right side of the fence. Then with the cutter head completely behind the fence, clamp the work piece, centered to the fence and slowly move the fence back to bring the cutter through the fence and into the work piece to the desired depth . Power off the shaper and place the power feeder against the back of the work piece. Remove the clamps, power up the shaper and use the power feeder to climb cut back to the left fence mark and then reverse the power feeder and cut to the right fence mark, then power off the shaper. I have a new power feeder that has speed control as well as forward and reverse, but I haven't used it yet. Is this feasible?

[Edward Dyas]

For that application I prefer to use a molding cutter on a table saw however as long as you slowly set the board on the cutter on a shaper you shouldn't have any problems. Try it with a piece of scrap wood and I think you laugh at being apprehensive with it. The worst that can happen is if you sit it down too fast it might kick back. Just keep your hands down wind just in case. As far as a jig all you would need is a straight fence. Just mark a start and stop place on the fence so you can make both flutes the same.

[brent stanley]

It's a slightly advanced procedure, and tough to explain without diagrams or pictures and I never think to take pictures of these things. I'm also the last person I know without a smart phone so it's harder without a camera in your pocket all the time. :)

At the very least you need a stop at each end of the travel. One for it to rest against as you pivot in and one for when you pivot out. This gives you a lot more control than free handing. If the piece is longer than your fence, then you need to rig something up to achieve that. I like to have my pivot at the front and slide in and out from the back when it works. This requires a long stop that you can slide in on. Joe has lots of pictures of this. Depending on the size of the piece, sometimes you want a holding fixture with integral handles.

This is a great reference if you don't have it already.

https://amzn.to/34URLfe

B

[Jack Hovanec]

For that application I prefer to use a molding cutter on a table saw however as long as you slowly set the board on the cutter on a shaper you shouldn't have any problems. Try it with a piece of scrap wood and I think you laugh at being apprehensive with it.
I have used my table saw to do some beading work. It worked but the quality of cut wasn't there due to the comparatively low rotation speed. I'll be running my shaper at 10k rpm, I believe my table saw is only 4500. I already tried a few pieces and this thing really wants to grab ahold of it. Doesn't really seem safe persay, not to mention the quality of cut isn't great when it grabs it like that.

[Jared Sankovich]

Stop block on the fence. I think Joe Calhoun has a video of it somewhere on here.

[Jack Hovanec]

Brent,
These are good suggestions. The stop would definitely be helpful, but these columns are a little over 6 feet long. I am thinking that I will need to build an extension like you mentioned. I like the idea of have that stop to prevent the cutter from pushing the material back towards me. I did this in some trials and the result was sub-par at best (lots of bumps and ridges on the profile).

[Edward Dyas]

If it's grabbing you might set the fence shallow and start the cuts and then put the fence in the right position to make the part. That way it's not hogging all the wood at the initial cut. I don't understand it grabbing. My shaper turns at 8000 rpm and it only has two cutters.

[brent stanley]

It doesn't have to be pretty, but should probably be locked/clamped to the table so nothing can move relative to one another.

[Bradley Gray]

I have also done this on a table saw with a moulding head - fairly easy and not scary. Hone the cutters first, sand after.

I have a W&H machine - no idea how that could work.

Shaper sounds scary.

[Lee Schierer]

I'd use a hand held router and some guides. No chance of a kick back with a router. Dropping a board down on a moving cutter or blade is extremely dangerous.

[Mike Cutler]

Go to the 19 minute mark of this video. Don't let the title put you off. I've been using a shaper for a long time, and still find this video valuable.
I've used the same concept to do much larger pieces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n6yTHMBX54

[Joe Calhoon]

I’ve watched that video and think it is pretty lame. The safe way to do this on the shaper is to have a wide stop at the tail and drop the front in with the tail supported. This way you can ease into the cut without any grabbing or burning.
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Several years ago we did the interior of a Victorian house that had hundreds of stop chamfers and flutes on the casings and doors. Here is the pattern for the casings, they were all 8 to 10’ long. The chamfers all got squared with a chisel. I bought the Aigner jig for that job but very simple to shop make stops and tables for this
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Here is a example of a drop cut on a double hung sash.
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If it only stops at the tail you can just use a stop at the end.
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[Jack Hovanec]

For those with a variable speed feed, they can drop cut into a work piece, start the feed and then slow it down until it stops wherever you want it to.
I may look into the shop fox version.

[brent stanley]

Thanks Joe, I knew you'd show up with pictures of what I was talking about. He has fancy kit for it that makes it easier and more repeatable etc, but you can do it with shop scraps. I think dropping in like he does in the double hung sash picture is very very controllable. Left hand on the top left corner, right hand easing it in and it feels very confidence inspiring. I just did this on some replacement wooden storms the other day. You don't ever want to try this without stop blocks at least...

[Carl Beckett]

I was doing just this last weekend - a drop cut on the shaper. It was small 3/16" grooves for box panels.

I could not get comfortable with it (it did grab on me once as well), so went to the router instead.

They were relatively short though (12" ish), longer pieces would keep the fingers farther away. Having the stops that others have shown here would definitely help, and as mentioned provide a guide so that the piece does not twist when you are entering/exiting the cut.

[brent stanley]

I was doing just this last weekend - a drop cut on the shaper. It was small 3/16" grooves for box panels.

I could not get comfortable with it (it did grab on me once as well), so went to the router instead.

They were relatively short though (12" ish), longer pieces would keep the fingers farther away. Having the stops that others have shown here would definitely help, and as mentioned provide a guide so that the piece does not twist when you are entering/exiting the cut.

In this case, building a holder/fixture as in the video would help.

[Jack Hovanec]

I got it done. Thanks for all the help. The challenge was the length of the pieces. I'll upload some pics later
Jack

[Mike Cutler]

I’ve watched that video and think it is pretty lame. The safe way to do this on the shaper is to have a wide stop at the tail and drop the front in with the tail supported. This way you can ease into the cut without any grabbing or burning.

Joe
I don't know that I agree with "lame", but it is "antiquated". it's definitely not a video for use in a production environment.
It was the concept of using a tail stop, or back stop, to control the angle that the material would meet the cutter head at, that I was referring to. Each situation would be different.
I don't know that I would have used my hands, as was done in that video. The times I've done it, I've made a small jig to control the material and keep my hands away.
Do you have a shaper video on you tube? I've watched the series Brent put up on you tube, and for some reason I thought I had heard you too had a video.

[brent stanley]

Joe
I don't know that I agree with "lame", but it is "antiquated". it's definitely not a video for use in a production environment.
It was the concept of using a tail stop, or back stop, to control the angle that the material would meet the cutter head at, that I was referring to. Each situation would be different.
I don't know that I would have used my hands, as was done in that video. The times I've done it, I've made a small jig to control the material and keep my hands away.
Do you have a shaper video on you tube? I've watched the series Brent put up on you tube, and for some reason I thought I had heard you too had a video.

It's a pretty good video overall though some of the tooling is no longer accepted in the UK. It's not perfect and I also wouldn't consider it complete because there are a few other (better) ways of going about things than how he did them, though from what I have seen out there in terms of techniques and practices on this side of the pond, I think a lot of people would benefit from watching even this imperfect video! It focuses on shop-made jigs for things which are more budget conscious for smaller operations like you say. The Eric Stephenson book is very good. I first saw it on an instructor's shelf in the UK.

[Mike Cutler]

Brent

Definitely not complete.
I've seen some scary stuff done with shapers. Guilty of some of them too.:o
There are some frightening shaper videos on the internet. There's is one with some middle eastern workers, using a reversible glue joint cutter, making cutting boards, is cringe worthy.
I'll have to look up the Stephenson book.

[brent stanley]

Brent

Definitely not complete.
I've seen some scary stuff done with shapers. Guilty of some of them too.:o
There are some frightening shaper videos on the internet. There's is one with some middle eastern workers, using a reversible glue joint cutter, making cutting boards, is cringe worthy.
I'll have to look up the Stephenson book.

This one: https://amzn.to/34URLfe

It's a great reference full of great ideas. You'll love it.

B

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe
I don't know that I agree with "lame", but it is "antiquated". it's definitely not a video for use in a production environment.
It was the concept of using a tail stop, or back stop, to control the angle that the material would meet the cutter head at, that I was referring to. Each situation would be different.
I don't know that I would have used my hands, as was done in that video. The times I've done it, I've made a small jig to control the material and keep my hands away.
Do you have a shaper video on you tube? I've watched the series Brent put up on you tube, and for some reason I thought I had heard you too had a video.

Hi Mike,
in the video he shows dropping in from the front. You will get away with this on small cuts but gets very dangerous on larger cuts even with a back stop. You should have a wide stop at the back and ease the back in. As my photos show.
Yes, I think for the most part his methods are not so good.

I have a Utube channel
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCZ2uLjJUruopJHaNcpQwrCQ/videos
Its also pretty lame.... working on getting the quality and editing up on these. I have done some for Rangate that are better.

I have a bunch of the BGHM books that are in German but have good pictures.
I found a online link for one of these that shows safety techniques for all machines.

https://www.bghm.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Seminare/Holzbranche/TSM-Web_BG_96.18.pdf

[Jack Hovanec]

Here was the set up. Wound up being very simple. Poplar fence extensions with a stop block at the desired distance. I cut into the poplar so that I could see exactly where the knives would enter and exit the material so that I could pull my measurements off of there instead of guessing and checking, and also act as somewhat of a zero clearance to reduce tear-out. I stupidly enough pulled from the wrong side so I ruined two pieces of mahogany before I realized what I did wrong. I should have pulled from the far side.
Worked pretty well with decent results. It would have been easier with two people to support the piece at the beginning and end of the cut... a table extension would have also been beneficial.
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[Kevin Jenness]

Jack,

What do you mean by "pulled from the wrong side"?

A roller stand or similar supporting the stock front and back would be helpful.

Joe,

Thanks once more for the pictures and explanation of your technique. I have gotten away with dropping in from the front with a narrow backstop on light cuts but in the future will use a wide rear backstop and pivot in from the front edge.

There are plenty of cuts best done on the shaper, but I would use my cnc router by choice for this.

[brent stanley]

Jack,

What do you mean by "pulled from the wrong side"?

A roller stand or similar supporting the stock front and back would be helpful.

Joe,

Thanks once more for the pictures and explanation of your technique. I have gotten away with dropping in from the front with a narrow backstop on light cuts but in the future will use a wide rear backstop and pivot in from the front edge.

There are plenty of cuts best done on the shaper, but I would use my cnc router by choice for this.

The geometry doesn't always allow for pivoting at the cutter end depending on projection/diameter of cutter, length of the piece and how close to the end the moulding is to start but you can often make it work.

[Kevin Jenness]

Brent,

I see your point. If the start of the cut is that close it would be a good idea to begin with an over-length piece. I think Joe's recommendation is good in principle though as pivoting from the rear tends to invite a catch

[brent stanley]

Brent,

I see your point. If the start of the cut is that close it would be a good idea to begin with an over-length piece. I think Joe's recommendation is good in principle though as pivoting from the rear tends to invite a catch

Absolutely, that's why in post #4 I suggested exactly that, I'm just saying that sometimes the geometry doesn't cooperate so you would have to start with some trim like you say, if that's an option.

[Jack Hovanec]

Jack,

What do you mean by "pulled from the wrong side"?

I pulled my measurement from the near side vs the far side.

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe,

Thanks once more for the pictures and explanation of your technique. I have gotten away with dropping in from the front with a narrow backstop on light cuts but in the future will use a wide rear backstop and pivot in from the front edge.

There are plenty of cuts best done on the shaper, but I would use my cnc router by choice for this.

Kevin,
I dropped in from the front for many years also without incident. We even had the Aigner stops for a while before I looked at the instructions on the stop. It is a lot safer and the cut quality better because you can ease it in without grabbing. Another problem with coming in from the front if you have good dust collection it will suck the board in quickly and be chip out prone.

I dont have any issues if the chamfers or flutes are close to the end. Just bridge the opening with the fence fingers or a shop made bridging fence with a wide backstop.
If you look toward the end of the video you will see the stop turned to get the wide width needed for the backstop.

Agree that CNC is the best solution if you have one.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=luo-ZEfd088

[brent stanley]

Brent,

I see your point. If the start of the cut is that close it would be a good idea to begin with an over-length piece. I think Joe's recommendation is good in principle though as pivoting from the rear tends to invite a catch

Small world! I was helping someone out last night with some shaper work and this very thing happened to them! Fortunately they'd only cut their test stock to length and their main components were still over length and they just left them that way till we were done. By the time they'd completed the ten components they were really comfortable with it.