Building closet organization shelves/drawers etc

[joe webb]

Hello all,

I am preparing and researching for a new project. We have 4 closets (walk-in and also with sliding doors) and we are not using that space efficiently because they only have one shelf with a hanging rod underneath. I would like to add shelfs, hanging rods, drawers etc...like those closet organization system found at ikea, but the cost is super high, thus I am now looking into building them myself. I would appreciate any tips on how to best accomplish this. The following questions come to mind first:

1) I am thinking of using plywood. Are MDF or particle boards better options?
2) I don't have a strong preference on the look. Is it easier to paint or stain plywood?
3) where can we buy plywood for less than HomeDepot and Lowes? Any online that would ship?
4) having closets that stand on the floor look much better to me than hanging on the walls. Given I have to build and finish them in my garage, and floor/walls might not be always square, is it feasible? Like building a box/platform for the cabinets to rest on?
5) do we cut off the baseboards or build the cabinets above it?
6) what is the best way to join the boards? Wood screws? Dowels? Dado? Wood glue & brad nails?

Attached is a picture of one closet. They are all more or less like that. Some drawers, some box, some shelves, some rods. We don't need shoe storage. Only for clothes.
The goal is to have a functional, durable, and easy to fabricate system at the lowest cost. It doesn't have to look fancy like having glass door on cabinets.

Thanks much in advance
Joe

[Frank Drackman]

Many, many questions in your post. The answer to most is, it depends.

Do you have the ability to spray finishes?

Do you have they ability to cut sheet goods to accurate, repeatable size?

What type of fastening systems are you proficient in using?

I remove any mouldings before the project, recur and replace them after the units are installed.

One question that I word differently, "Where can I purchase higher quality sheet goods than are stocked at the big box stores?" My experience is that most sheet goods at the big box stores are a poor value.

My other suggestion is take plenty if time to design & plan the project. I frequently use cardboard to mock up the shape/size of cabinets to insure that they fit in the space.

[Don Jarvie]

Just my opinion...

1. Plywood, MDF and particle board aren’t the strongest to support shelves
2. Paint. You can putty all of the holes, etc. it’s a closet
3. The HD and Lowe’s poplar or birch plywood is ok. Have to make sure it’s flat which isn’t always the case. Your local lumberyard may have paint grade ply which is a better grade than HD. It may be a little more expensive but dealing with warped or bowed wood isn’t fun. Check out what HD has.
4. Check the floors and walls and see if they are off. You always have the back set back an you inch so you can scribe and get a good fit. A piece of quarter round can also cover the gap and you don’t need to scribe, etc
5. It’s easier to remove the trim so the cabs fit flush against the wall.
6. Recommend dados and screws. The top, mid and bottom should be fixed and rabbit in the back. It will help the cab from racking.

A few other tips. Since you are building them in the garage make sure can fit in the door and in the room. If you make floor to ceiling cabs I suggest you make the in 2 pieces. If they are too tall you won’t be able to stand them up. Trust me on this one. Also iron on edge banding looks nice if you don’t want to use face frames.

[Gary Ragatz]

Joe,

I built an organizer for a walk-in closet in our previous home. The closet was roughly 6’ x 8’ and we wanted shelves and hanging space on the two long walls. A little less complicated than what you have in mind, as we weren’t interested in drawers.


I used white melamine-coated particle board from HD. They had, I think, a choice of 12” or 16” wide vertical panels, pre-drilled for shelf pins or hanging rod supports, and also matching-width solid panels for shelving. I built our organizer as “modules,” each about 2’wide, with a top shelf screwed to the two sides and, where we didn’t need “long” hanging space, a middle shelf screwed to the sides. I also added a 4” nailer just under the top shelf and near the middle of each module.


The modules were screwed into studs, through the nailers, and sat on top of a 1x4 ledger board mounted just above the baseboard – so the bottom of each unit was about 7” above the floor. We thought mounting things to the wall would make it a little easier to clean underneath, and also easier to change flooring (our closet was carpeted). We also screwed adjacent modules to each other, as you would with kitchen cabinets.

It’s been three or four years, but at the time, materials cost was $500-600 for that closet. Nobody would mistake it for fine woodworking, but it was functional, it was easy to clean, and after my wife filled it with clothes, you could barely see the organizer anyway :). Best thing from my perspective was I didn’t have to do any painting/finishing.

Gary

[Thomas C Barron]

Use UVA coated birch plywood, about $55 per sheet. Then use .75 inch x 1.5 inch solid maple or poplar (if you’re not a stickler in finish) rips for the edges and wall ledgers. Build it in place and putty the nail holes then spray satin poly on the raw maple to finish.

[Matthew Hills]

What tools do you have? (or what techniques are you already comfortable with?)
And what are the closet dimensions? (my first thought is to skip the returns on the ends, and to ask if you really want a lot of shelves and drawers in the middle? How will the space be used?)

One of the first projects I tackled was a closet organizer design from Family Handyman, except I kept trying to make it more complicated.
(I don't see the exact project, but they have a decent article on closet organizers (https://www.familyhandyman.com/closet/storage-how-to-triple-your-closet-storage-space/): )
I grabbed red oak plywood from one of the local borgs because I thought oak sounded cool and it wasn't too expensive.
I learned to really dislike this stuff -- when I encountered voids (the outer veneer would cave in because of a gap underneath), or places where the glue laminations failed, or where the pieces bowed when cut -- this was especially annoying when trying to make drawers. I also decided that I didn't really like edge banding. This was finished with general finishes wipe-on gel varnish. I decided that I did like that finish method.

My second organizer was much simpler. For a 6' span, I had a top shelf near the top of the closet, then 2-level rods across 4' of span, and a tower with 2' of long hanging and then an intermediate shelf with some space below the top shelf. This used a sheet of birch plywood with solid edging. Finish was a light coat of watco danish oil (don't let this get too thick, and it will need some time to dry out). Overall, I preferred this simpler design and build.

If you can get old plywood on craigslist, that can be very stable and much better (for the price) than what you can buy retail. If you paint, don't use paint designed for house walls -- it ends up very gummy. (this was a mistake I made on a rehabilitated corner hutch)

Good luck!

Matt

[Doug Dawson]

Hello all,

I am preparing and researching for a new project. We have 4 closets (walk-in and also with sliding doors) and we are not using that space efficiently because they only have one shelf with a hanging rod underneath. I would like to add shelfs, hanging rods, drawers etc...like those closet organization system found at ikea, but the cost is super high, thus I am now looking into building them myself. I would appreciate any tips on how to best accomplish this.

If you're trying to save money over what you'd buy at Ikea, good luck with that! (Not trying to be sarcastic here.) Just go to Ikea, and buy what you want, resting assured that it would cost you more money to build it yourself (let alone the labor cost and the cost of getting the stinkeye from SWMBO for the extra time it would take.) There have to be other reasons to do this work.

[Jim Dwight]

In terms of strength, the strongest is solid wood, next is plywood, next is particle board and firmly in last is MDF. I don't like painted particle board and I don't think I am unique. MDF is very thirsty but can be painted to look good. Solid wood and plywood need a stain blocking primer or a coat of shellac but with this they take paint fine.

I do not use shelves in closets for clothes. In my opinion, that is what dresser drawers are for. I hang clothes in closets but mine also has a high shelf for other stuff (mostly guns at the moment). My closet is 3 by 7 with double hanging rods on the three foot dimension. So I have 12 feet of hanging space. That is sufficient for me. Most women need some long hanging and some men do too. I would start by figuring out how much long hanging you need and use that to divide the closet up. I would use plywood to support clothes rods where there is no wall handy. You could also make shelves or drawers out of it too. I do have three drawers in mine on the end with no upper shelf. The top rod is almost on the ceiling. That is OK for me at 6'2" and a 8 foot ceiling but wouldn't work for everybody. The drawers are in between the upper and lower hanging space. They are shallow but are big enough for my underwear and socks.

First step is to figure out what goes in the closet including long versus short hanging space and drawers/shelves.

If you do not have a good way to make really accurate cuts on sheet goods I would get a track saw. Wen has one that is really inexpensive as does Grizzly. They are not equivalent to a Festool or even my DeWalt but they will make accurate cuts. I would put a Freud blade on, however. I like to cut on a sheet of rigid insulation. Glue and screws make a solid tight joint pretty quickly. A shallow dado can be very handy for locating the pieces.

[joe webb]

Thank you so much for all your input. Very good tips. This site is so great. Let me first answers some of your questions


1) I have some common tools: router with various bits, 10" sliding miter saw, 7" circular saw with jigs to cut straight (like a track saw), jigsaw, small job site 10" table saw (i can't rip big sheets coz I don't have a workshop), power drills, air brad nails gun. I don't have painting spray machine. I have been painting with rollers and staining w/ a piece of cloth. I enjoy staining much more than painting.


2) Skill wise, I can do good work if given proper guidance as I take my time to learn, understand, and do things. Most of my DIY projects have been first time and turned out really good. I have been able to cut sheets fairly accurately by measuring careful and using various templates, but I don't have that big table saw to cut every piece to same width. Thus far, I have only done butt joins (with screw, pocket holes, or dowel) and miter joins. As far as my woodworking experience, I remodeled my stair case and built a desk with a matching night stand.


3) @Don Jarvie, what does "A piece of quarter round can also cover the gap and you don’t need to scribe" mean? Would you have a picture to help me visualize? Insert shims at the bottom of the cabinets and use the quarter round to hide the shims?


4) @Matthew Hills, thanks for the link. I have seen it before and it gave me inspiration to do this project on my own. Although it will likely take me more than one weekend but time isn't an issue as I enjoy doing this stuff. I do have all the tools listed though :-)


5) @Doug Dawson, I looked at a similar (to the picture attached) closet system from IKEA, and the cost was $465. I think this would take no more than 3 sheets of plywood ($50 each) and $100 of hardware. But yes, cost is not the entire reason. The IKEA items are generally hard to customize to my closets to optimally use all the space. Given it is made with particle boards, cutting it would be a pain and would chip the finish. I am also not impressed by IKEA furniture quality.


6) @Jim Dwight, I debated about putting drawers in the closet because I have sliding doors and that imposes some constraints on the layout. The reason I cramped them in there is we have small rooms and the bed, desk and bookcase is taken most of the space.


At this point, I am leaning toward plywood because they are easier to cut, affordable, and structurally strong. What are the advantage of Maple, Oak over Douglas Fir plywood besides look? Given they will be hidden by clothes, I can compromise on the look. Only the edge and drawers front are highly visible and I can get the nicer wood if needed.


* $55 Maple https://www.lowes.com/pd/Top-Choice-NAF-3-4-in-HPVA-Maple-Plywood-Application-as-4-X-8/1000096506
* $55 Oak https://www.lowes.com/pd/Top-Choice-NAF-3-4-in-HPVA-Oak-Plywood-Application-as-4-X-8/1000096488
* $36 Douglas Fir https://www.lowes.com/pd/23-32-CAT-PS1-09-Douglas-Fir-Sanded-Plywood-Application-as-4-x-8/1000015783


I am also looking for staining the plywood. Do I need coat of poly if I use Danish Oil as stain? I have 3/4 gallon water based poly left from my stairs project.


To clarify, by "building in the garage", I mean I would like to do the cutting, fitting, staining, and poly coating in the garage and only do the assembly and minor touch up in the room. Just like if I would have bought the unit from the store.

Sorry for the lengthy reply.

[Robert Engel]

Joe,

We just went through this with our master bedroom closet. In the end, we decided to go with a manufactured kit and I made an enclosure for the air handler with matching laminate.

Major part of the decision for me was cost vs. shop time. No, I wasn't happy with the quality of the kit, but it wasn't that bad and the end product looks good.

MDF would not be a good choice IMO. It is very heavy and does not hold screws well. Same with particle board.

If you're going to paint then I would go with melamine rather than painting plywood (this will probably limit you to white). It will be hard for you to beat kits when you add up materials and time. Plus, you're looking at spraying to do a nice job, which gets you into a whole 'nother arena.

Truthfully you're not going to find quality plywood or cheaper plywood than at HD. Even their "baltic birch" is not the greatest. My biggest issue with theirs is flatness. That said, I have used their "Sandeply" for many utility cabinets. Paints very well.

They don't have to go all the way to the floor, in some respects its easier not to because avoid the whole baseboard issue. Just like cabinets, you mount them to the wall if the walls aren't plumb you can always add a trim strip. To address baseboards we just cut a notch at the back, since they were hidden by either shoe racks or clothes.

Cabinets are normally joined with screws. If exposed you can cover with caps or filler. But you can also use dowels, biscuits, or dominoes.

So much depends on your ability, ambition but based on your machines etc, but I promise this will shape up to be a challenging project if you don't have a lot of experience building cabs. I recommend you give the closet kits another look before you jump in.

[joe webb]

Joe,

We just went through this with our master bedroom closet. In the end, we decided to go with a manufactured kit and I made an enclosure for the air handler with matching laminate.

Major part of the decision for me was cost vs. shop time. No, I wasn't happy with the quality of the kit, but it wasn't that bad and the end product looks good.

MDF would not be a good choice IMO. It is very heavy and does not hold screws well. Same with particle board.

If you're going to paint then I would go with melamine rather than painting plywood (this will probably limit you to white). It will be hard for you to beat kits when you add up materials and time. Plus, you're looking at spraying to do a nice job, which gets you into a whole 'nother arena.

Truthfully you're not going to find quality plywood or cheaper plywood than at HD. Even their "baltic birch" is not the greatest. My biggest issue with theirs is flatness. That said, I have used their "Sandeply" for many utility cabinets. Paints very well.

They don't have to go all the way to the floor, in some respects its easier not to because avoid the whole baseboard issue. Just like cabinets, you mount them to the wall if the walls aren't plumb you can always add a trim strip. To address baseboards we just cut a notch at the back, since they were hidden by either shoe racks or clothes.

Cabinets are normally joined with screws. If exposed you can cover with caps or filler. But you can also use dowels, biscuits, or dominoes.

So much depends on your ability, ambition but based on your machines etc, but I promise this will shape up to be a challenging project if you don't have a lot of experience building cabs. I recommend you give the closet kits another look before you jump in.


Thanks for all the tips Robert. I don't like painting very much and I would most likely stain the plywood. Do we need to use wood glue with screws to join? If we do, then I am more inclined to use dowels and avoid having to do the filler.

I looked at the closet kits from several online stores for the past few months, and for all 4 closets, the cheapest (and not so good looking ones) would run over $6000 for all 4 closets. That's quite bit of money for just closet organization. But after reading this thread, it might not be as easy as it look to make closet storage. I can try with the smallest closet first and see how challenging it is, then decide for the remaining 3 closets.

One point I didn't clearly understand from your reply is the trim piece. I am attaching a picture to visualize my understanding. Is that correct?

Cheers

[joe webb]

And do we use 1/2 or 3/4" plywood for closet? I would think the long horizontal shelves must be 3/4 to minimize bending.

[Gary Ragatz]

Joe,

I'd definitely stick with 3/4" for both vertical and horizontal components.

I understand you're not interested in the pre-fab organizers, but for planning purposes, you might want to look at the design tool at SimplyNeu's web site. You can put in the dimensions of your closet, and then try out different configurations of hanging/shelving/drawer space to help you figure out what will work best for you.

http://www.simplyneu.com/

[joe webb]

Joe,

I'd definitely stick with 3/4" for both vertical and horizontal components.

I understand you're not interested in the pre-fab organizers, but for planning purposes, you might want to look at the design tool at SimplyNeu's web site. You can put in the dimensions of your closet, and then try out different configurations of hanging/shelving/drawer space to help you figure out what will work best for you.

http://www.simplyneu.com/


Thanks for link Gary. I used several of those designer tools first to figure out the possibilities. They are great. Once I have the desired configuration, I pulled my CAD software and draw each piece with its exact dimensions. It will help w/ the cutting and also help me understand and visualize how the pieces will be joined together.

Using 3/4 for everything will probably be easier to cut. Simpler than juggling between 2 thickness.

[Jim Dwight]

I would rather buy anything at Home Depot than at Lowes. But part of that is where they are in the town I live in. Home Depot carries a formaldehyde free plywood that is pretty good. I am using it in a cradle right now in maple and birch. They did not have thinner maple but had 1/2 birch and it will be painted - with Resisthane. The inner plys of the maple are poplar. I'm not sure about the 1/2 birch - it is noticably not as good. I have also used half a dozen sheets of a pine plywood HD sells that is made in Chile. It is cheaper and a white painted cabinet in my bathroom made from it came out very good. I would not hessitate to use it on a closet organizer.

I justify tools by projects - or at least I used to. I think this project justifies a track saw. I used to use a circular saw with a shoot board but a track saw is in a different category with respect to smoothness of cut and accuracy. I use a DeWalt but I think even the low end saws are worth having versus a circular saw. Because the rib guides the blade in both directions, you are less likely to ruin a piece of wood wandering off the guide. You basically cannot. Low end to me is a WEN or Grizzly. With a good blade (freud) either would be better than a circular saw. The Kreg is probably better and can be had with a bench that folds up - could be good for your situation. Makita and DeWalt are equivalent to table saws in performance and still a lot less than a Festool.

I would use screws and glue to join things together and get a plug cutter and a little solid wood of the plywood species for plugs. Plugged screw holes don't show much and glued and screwed joints are strong. You can skip the glue if you think you will need to take it apart but it adds a lot of strength. After the screw dries you could pull the screws and be fine. Shallow, 1/16 deep, dados are really nice for locating pieces during assembly. You can do them with a router but may need a bit less wide than the nominal plywood thickness because the plywood is not really 3/4 wide.

You might think about prefinishing the plywood with a roller. You need a coat or two of poly for durability. But you can roll it on the full sheet and then cut it up. A wipe on coat after assembly can cover any scuffs.

[Charles P. Wright]

I justify tools by projects - or at least I used to. I think this project justifies a track saw. I used to use a circular saw with a shoot board but a track saw is in a different category with respect to smoothness of cut and accuracy. I use a DeWalt but I think even the low end saws are worth having versus a circular saw. Because the rib guides the blade in both directions, you are less likely to ruin a piece of wood wandering off the guide. You basically cannot. Low end to me is a WEN or Grizzly. With a good blade (freud) either would be better than a circular saw. The Kreg is probably better and can be had with a bench that folds up - could be good for your situation. Makita and DeWalt are equivalent to table saws in performance and still a lot less than a Festool.

I used a circular saw guide for many projects [a few closets in particular], but when doing my kitchen cabinets I upgraded to a track saw. Not being able to wander off in the wrong direction is very helpful, especially when you are cutting special order plywood and it will take a week or two to get a replacement if you mess it up.

[joe webb]

I would rather buy anything at Home Depot than at Lowes. But part of that is where they are in the town I live in. Home Depot carries a formaldehyde free plywood that is pretty good. I am using it in a cradle right now in maple and birch. They did not have thinner maple but had 1/2 birch and it will be painted - with Resisthane. The inner plys of the maple are poplar. I'm not sure about the 1/2 birch - it is noticably not as good. I have also used half a dozen sheets of a pine plywood HD sells that is made in Chile. It is cheaper and a white painted cabinet in my bathroom made from it came out very good. I would not hessitate to use it on a closet organizer.

I justify tools by projects - or at least I used to. I think this project justifies a track saw. I used to use a circular saw with a shoot board but a track saw is in a different category with respect to smoothness of cut and accuracy. I use a DeWalt but I think even the low end saws are worth having versus a circular saw. Because the rib guides the blade in both directions, you are less likely to ruin a piece of wood wandering off the guide. You basically cannot. Low end to me is a WEN or Grizzly. With a good blade (freud) either would be better than a circular saw. The Kreg is probably better and can be had with a bench that folds up - could be good for your situation. Makita and DeWalt are equivalent to table saws in performance and still a lot less than a Festool.

I would use screws and glue to join things together and get a plug cutter and a little solid wood of the plywood species for plugs. Plugged screw holes don't show much and glued and screwed joints are strong. You can skip the glue if you think you will need to take it apart but it adds a lot of strength. After the screw dries you could pull the screws and be fine. Shallow, 1/16 deep, dados are really nice for locating pieces during assembly. You can do them with a router but may need a bit less wide than the nominal plywood thickness because the plywood is not really 3/4 wide.

You might think about prefinishing the plywood with a roller. You need a coat or two of poly for durability. But you can roll it on the full sheet and then cut it up. A wipe on coat after assembly can cover any scuffs.

Thanks Jim. Few follow questions?

Oh no, another saw :D. I have been cutting with a guide like this (https://www.oldhouseonline.com/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_792/MTQ0NDY2OTgxODcwMTg0MzQ3/5-best-saws-circular.webp) and so far so good. Is a track saw really needed given we are not cutting expensive wood? I am hesitant given it is not a versatile tool and I am low on storage space.

Are you referring to the Kreg Accu-cut saw track (https://www.kregtool.com/store/c48/saw-attachments/p425/accu-cut/?source=3626)? It would be cheaper and take less space to store.

I was thinking ripping the plywood length-wise at home depot at whatever depth we go with. Then I am left w/ only the short cuts.

If we use glue, aren't brad nails good enough to hold while it dries?

Over the weekend, I make a gig like this (https://1uscx04b9e331agpck24eteh-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/Lead-dadoes.jpg) and used a 1/2" flush trim bit to made dados. Pretty easy once we gig is setup. Just 2 passes to make a dado.

[Charles P. Wright]

Joe,

You can absolutely be successful with the kind of jigs that you linked to. It is nicer to use a track saw, but it is definitely not a requirement to build good stuff.

Charles

[Matthew Hills]

I was thinking ripping the plywood length-wise at home depot at whatever depth we go with. Then I am left w/ only the short cuts.

In our area, these cuts are suitable for rough breakdown, but not for finished cuts.
Anything from being at the wrong width, out of square, or significant tearout.

Your local store may be better, otherwise you may want to prepare for finishing cuts at home.

If using table saw, make sure your fence is aligned, you have your splitter in, and outfeed support (I like this one (https://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-Flip-Top-Portable-Work-Support-AC9934/100618242) from home depot for a temporary support) or a long guide for your circular saw. If doing crosscuts, I'd recommend a zero-clearance insert on the saw. This helped a lot more than other methods I'd seen recommended for reducing tearout (blue tape or pre-scoring with a utility knife).

When I did my first closet project (mentioned above), I used a straight edge (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Swanson-Tool-Company-Straight-Edges-8-33-ft-Metal-Ruler/1006469) held down with clamps. This guide flexed a bit if I wasn't careful to eliminate lateral pressure. Also, it requires calculating the offset from the edge of your saw base to the blade. I messed this up on one cut. Both might have been helped if I had mounted to a 1/4 or 1/2" base, similar to the circ saw jig you are using now.


Matt

[Tom Bender]

What you want is a lot of square footage so make several shallow shelves and a few taller. Put the taller ones low and high so you can see into the shallow ones at eye level.

[Jim Dwight]

Sorry, I did not notice the questions. I've been trying to reprogram my car. Keep hitting roadblocks.

I think it is incorrect to view a track saw as a limited usefulness tool. My circular saws, corded and cordless, are now used only for rough construction work, nothing in the workshop. They just do not give me as good a quality of cut as my track saw, regardless of the blade I put in them. The cordless is just a Ryobi but the corded is a Milwaukee which I do not thing is a crummy circular saw. But it makes sense to me that a $350 tool is made a bit better than a $125 tool. But if you go down to the cheapest track saws, you can get pretty close to a good circular saw in price. But the reports I've seen say the cut is still good but you often have to switch the blade (like to a Freud). I use my DeWalt track saw to make all cuts on larger pieces of wood. I avoid having to figure out how to support big pieces and guide them through the table saw. The cut quality of my track saw is at least equal to my SawStop table saw with good blades in each. I think of the track saw as the appropriate hand held power saw for finish carpentry and furniture making. Circular saws are construction or breakdown tools.

I don't trust the home center to do anything close to a finish cut. I actually almost never let them cut anything for me because the cuts are too poor. They are not accurate, the blade is usually dull, etc.. If I need to break things down, I take a cordless tool and do it in the parking lot.

While a track saw is not preferred to cut small pieces of wood, you can make those cuts and if I did not have a good table saw I would use if for that. You can, for instance, rip thin, 1/4 inch or less, thick pieces of solid wood to cover the edge of sheet goods. The cut will be good enough to be glued up, no planning or sanding necessary. My circular saw just will not do that, at least not with me at the controls.

In terms of storage, you don't have to have a special worktable for the track saw. I just throw a sheet of solid insulation on my workbench and use that. Some people cut on the floor. So what you have to find space for is the saw, circular saw in size, and the tracks. The tracks are long but not wide and thin. Some people make little brackets and store them on the garage door. I put mine on my lumber racks (106 inch) and inside my paulk style workbench. If you have the height, I think the best way to store them is vertical, on a nail.

[joe webb]

What you want is a lot of square footage so make several shallow shelves and a few taller. Put the taller ones low and high so you can see into the shallow ones at eye level.

Thanks Tom. That's a good point and I haven't thought of it. I will go back and redraw my closet. I previously have drawers in the bottom half and short shelves in the top half all the way up. Will need a step stool to reach the upper shelves for sure.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Hello all,

I am preparing and researching for a new project. We have 4 closets (walk-in and also with sliding doors) and we are not using that space efficiently because they only have one shelf with a hanging rod underneath. I would like to add shelfs, hanging rods, drawers etc...like those closet organization system found at ikea, but the cost is super high, thus I am now looking into building them myself. I would appreciate any tips on how to best accomplish this. The following questions come to mind first:

1) I am thinking of using plywood. Are MDF or particle boards better options?
2) I don't have a strong preference on the look. Is it easier to paint or stain plywood?
3) where can we buy plywood for less than HomeDepot and Lowes? Any online that would ship?
4) having closets that stand on the floor look much better to me than hanging on the walls. Given I have to build and finish them in my garage, and floor/walls might not be always square, is it feasible? Like building a box/platform for the cabinets to rest on?
5) do we cut off the baseboards or build the cabinets above it?
6) what is the best way to join the boards? Wood screws? Dowels? Dado? Wood glue & brad nails?

1. Plywood will be stronger and will hold nails and screws better and will glue up better

2. I would get some "A" grade ply, preferably baltic birch 9-12 ply, and paint it. Go over it with spackle and fill any holes or divets, prime and a nice flat paint. The shelves seem very wide to me and will have to be edge-banded or have hardwood edges. Any width longer than 24" may bow under weight, so you may have to go to cheap solid wood like pine or alder.

3. For quality sheet goods, go to a cabinet supply house, where craftsmen buy their drawer slides and sheet goods. I'm not sure Home Depot carries cabinet grade (multi-ply baltic birch).

4. You are correct to build a base and attach them to the base and walls. I build a base of 1x4 material, even ply, and shim it to level. Add a base board to conceal the base and shims.

5. Not sure what you mean, if you mean the baseboard within the closet, I would remove it, and add it back when completed. You will probably not have enough from your demo, so I would go to a molding supplier and try to match as best as you can to the existing baseboard. Its a closet and no one will notice discrepancies between the room and the closet.

6. Your choice. Pocket screws (Kreig) are really easy and strong. No glue required. You could also glue and finish nail the ply. Screws (other than Kreig, which are concealed) will need to be countersunk and filled or plugged. Finish nails will have to be set and filled.

Comment: You may find that the materials are quite expensive and you may pay more building it yourself than if you had a closet organizer company come in and knock it out in a day. Granted they will use mdf and crappy hardware and drawer slides. But that may be good enough for you. Decent drawer slides will run $10-25 per pair of slides for full extension 100 lb self closing slides (Accuride, Blum). In addition, you'll have to build the drawers yourself, although its pretty easy with Kreig pocket screws. Your cabinet hardware supplier should have a sub-contractor to build custom drawers in whatever material (hardwood or baltic birch) or joint (dovetail, finger joints, drawer joints, or dowels) you want. The advantage is speed, usually under a week, and dead-on accuracy and quality. They will also pre-drill for Blum hinges.

That said, I enjoy projects like these because its fun, I have absolute control over the design and quality, and I have the self-satisfaction that I built something really nice.

[Jim Dwight]

I did not comment on glue and nails for joints. My answer is that it depends. For a light load, like a shelf to hold shoes or handbags or sweaters, it would be plenty strong enough unless their is racking load. It will not resist that well. If there is a back on the "cabinet" there won't be racking load and there won't be much for a system fastened to the walls. But if it is freestanding without a back, there will be a lot. Glue and nails is also fine for most drawers - again the relatively lightly loaded ones. Glue will hold even heavier loads but only if the pieces are pulled pretty tightly together. That is only possible with good fitting joints and nails are not a great way to pull things together. Screws and clamps work much better for that.

When the screw heads will not show, I usually just use through screws. It takes slightly more time than nails but not a lot. If the screw heads will show, I still often use screws and plug or putty the screw head. I use bits for the clearance hole that also countersink the head and will add a 3/8 hole for a plug. I just got some new ones made by Milwaukee. Sometimes I use pocket screws if they will not be noticable and a through screw would be. Like the bottom shelf of a cabinet. If you put the screws in from the bottom pocket screws would not show. But through screws on the sides would unless the cabinet goes against the wall. I once built an entire kitchen of cabinets using through screws that were plugged where they would show. My wife liked them - the only meaningful standard.

[joe webb]

2. I would get some "A" grade ply, preferably baltic birch 9-12 ply, and paint it. Go over it with spackle and fill any holes or divets, prime and a nice flat paint. The shelves seem very wide to me and will have to be edge-banded or have hardwood edges. Any width longer than 24" may bow under weight, so you may have to go to cheap solid wood like pine or alder.


Thanks Thomas. Does edge-banding mean attach a ledge along a wall and have the shelf rest on it? I was planning on doing that for all shelves. Not necessary for short ones (i.e. just a ledge on the left and right)?



4. You are correct to build a base and attach them to the base and walls. I build a base of 1x4 material, even ply, and shim it to level. Add a base board to conceal the base and shims.


Do we insert the shim between the floor and the base or between the cabinet and the base?

[Gary Ragatz]

Thanks Thomas. Does edge-banding mean attach a ledge along a wall and have the shelf rest on it? I was planning on doing that for all shelves. Not necessary for short ones (i.e. just a ledge on the left and right)?


Joe,

Edge-banding refers to attaching a band of solid wood to the exposed edge of sheet goods (particle board/MDF/plywood) to disguise the fact that it's sheet goods, and also to provide some protection against wear/chipping for the sheet goods. The edge-banding can be as thin as a millimeter or two of veneer, or can be made thicker, especially if you want to rout some type of profile on it (not likely with your closet organizers).

[joe webb]

I did not comment on glue and nails for joints. My answer is that it depends. For a light load, like a shelf to hold shoes or handbags or sweaters, it would be plenty strong enough unless their is racking load. It will not resist that well. If there is a back on the "cabinet" there won't be racking load and there won't be much for a system fastened to the walls. But if it is freestanding without a back, there will be a lot. Glue and nails is also fine for most drawers - again the relatively lightly loaded ones. Glue will hold even heavier loads but only if the pieces are pulled pretty tightly together. That is only possible with good fitting joints and nails are not a great way to pull things together. Screws and clamps work much better for that.

When the screw heads will not show, I usually just use through screws. It takes slightly more time than nails but not a lot. If the screw heads will show, I still often use screws and plug or putty the screw head. I use bits for the clearance hole that also countersink the head and will add a 3/8 hole for a plug. I just got some new ones made by Milwaukee. Sometimes I use pocket screws if they will not be noticable and a through screw would be. Like the bottom shelf of a cabinet. If you put the screws in from the bottom pocket screws would not show. But through screws on the sides would unless the cabinet goes against the wall. I once built an entire kitchen of cabinets using through screws that were plugged where they would show. My wife liked them - the only meaningful standard.

Thanks for the detailed explanation Jim. That makes a lot of sense.

I have a mini Kreg so it seems more time consuming to use pocket hole than drilling pilot holes and countersink. I could invest in a better Kreg given I will be making 4 closets. I see lots of people using pocket holes for making drawers. I didn't think it was important to conceal the screw heads given the drawer is closed for most part.

Regarding the cabinet tower, I am leaning toward having the cabinet rest on top of a base, but I would add a strip at the back of the tower (near the top), and screw it to the wall. I would not want it to move. I also have shelves on both sides of the tower extending to the walls. That should prevent any lateral movement.

But it sounds like screws are the safest way to go and I won't need any fancy joint.

[Mark e Kessler]

it’s called a ladder base, build it separate lay it down on floor, level it the put cabs down, Shims go between floor and ladder base.


Thanks Thomas. Does edge-banding mean attach a ledge along a wall and have the shelf rest on it? I was planning on doing that for all shelves. Not necessary for short ones (i.e. just a ledge on the left and right)?



Do we insert the shim between the floor and the base or between the cabinet and the base?

[Mark e Kessler]

#3, cabinet grade plywood is not BB, cabinet grade is cabinet grade and BB is BB



1. Plywood will be stronger and will hold nails and screws better and will glue up better

2. I would get some "A" grade ply, preferably baltic birch 9-12 ply, and paint it. Go over it with spackle and fill any holes or divets, prime and a nice flat paint. The shelves seem very wide to me and will have to be edge-banded or have hardwood edges. Any width longer than 24" may bow under weight, so you may have to go to cheap solid wood like pine or alder.

3. For quality sheet goods, go to a cabinet supply house, where craftsmen buy their drawer slides and sheet goods. I'm not sure Home Depot carries cabinet grade (multi-ply baltic birch).

4. You are correct to build a base and attach them to the base and walls. I build a base of 1x4 material, even ply, and shim it to level. Add a base board to conceal the base and shims.

5. Not sure what you mean, if you mean the baseboard within the closet, I would remove it, and add it back when completed. You will probably not have enough from your demo, so I would go to a molding supplier and try to match as best as you can to the existing baseboard. Its a closet and no one will notice discrepancies between the room and the closet.

6. Your choice. Pocket screws (Kreig) are really easy and strong. No glue required. You could also glue and finish nail the ply. Screws (other than Kreig, which are concealed) will need to be countersunk and filled or plugged. Finish nails will have to be set and filled.

Comment: You may find that the materials are quite expensive and you may pay more building it yourself than if you had a closet organizer company come in and knock it out in a day. Granted they will use mdf and crappy hardware and drawer slides. But that may be good enough for you. Decent drawer slides will run $10-25 per pair of slides for full extension 100 lb self closing slides (Accuride, Blum). In addition, you'll have to build the drawers yourself, although its pretty easy with Kreig pocket screws. Your cabinet hardware supplier should have a sub-contractor to build custom drawers in whatever material (hardwood or baltic birch) or joint (dovetail, finger joints, drawer joints, or dowels) you want. The advantage is speed, usually under a week, and dead-on accuracy and quality. They will also pre-drill for Blum hinges.

That said, I enjoy projects like these because its fun, I have absolute control over the design and quality, and I have the self-satisfaction that I built something really nice.

[Thomas McCurnin]

A good top of the line Kreig jig (with the clamp) will only run you a couple hundred dollars, and if you are making more than 4 drawers, it will pay off. I often farm out the drawers to a drawer shop when I am using Blum slides.

I put the shims on the floor to level the base. The shims are concealed by baseboard.

My mistake on grading of plywood. A, B, AB etc are specific grades of plywood for various species. Cabinet grade plywood is a separate grade. In my world, cabinet grade means birch plywood which contains a higher number of layers for strength. Often your supplier stocks them pre-finished. Cabinet grade plywood is used for the case work and drawers. The pre-finished plywood for drawers makes a nice touch.

[Hoang N Nguyen]

Here's a closet project I did at our previous house.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?246196-Walk-in-closet-remodel&highlight=

I modeled these after some closet shelves sold by Ballard design. Ballard was charging close to and some up to $1000 a piece. I built 12 units for the price of 2.

I went with melamine sheets instead of plywood so I didn't have to paint anything. My wife wanted white closet shelves and the melamine came pre-finished in white, I just had to iron on the edge banding which was a lot easier and faster than painting.

[joe webb]

A good top of the line Kreig jig (with the clamp) will only run you a couple hundred dollars, and if you are making more than 4 drawers, it will pay off. I often farm out the drawers to a drawer shop when I am using Blum slides.

I put the shims on the floor to level the base. The shims are concealed by baseboard.

My mistake on grading of plywood. A, B, AB etc are specific grades of plywood for various species. Cabinet grade plywood is a separate grade. In my world, cabinet grade means birch plywood which contains a higher number of layers for strength. Often your supplier stocks them pre-finished. Cabinet grade plywood is used for the case work and drawers. The pre-finished plywood for drawers makes a nice touch.

How can I tell what is cabinet grade plywood? For example this product (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Swaner-Hardwood-Prefinished-Birch-Plywood-Common-3-4-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Actual-0-703-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-971080/203005208) has no mention of grade.

What is specific to Blum slides that makes you prefer to order the drawers?

Thanks

[joe webb]

Here's a closet project I did at our previous house.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?246196-Walk-in-closet-remodel&highlight=

I modeled these after some closet shelves sold by Ballard design. Ballard was charging close to and some up to $1000 a piece. I built 12 units for the price of 2.


I went with melamine sheets instead of plywood so I didn't have to paint anything. My wife wanted white closet shelves and the melamine came pre-finished in white, I just had to iron on the edge banding which was a lot easier and faster than painting.

Bummer can't see you pics. They are blocked. But man, it sounds like you have a huge closet. It would cost a fortune to order them.

I entered a design of a 7ft pantry closet on multiple closet online stores, and the quotes are around $1400-2000. Ikea is about $900 but with little flexibility. I am confident the material to built it would not exceed $300-400.

[Mark e Kessler]

I believe that particular prefinished ply at HD is made by Mt Baker and is probably cabinet grade. Cabinet grade is really just a general term most if not all domestic hardwood plywoods would fall into this grade. Domestics are graded for face (A-D) and Back (1-4), a shop grade just has more defects/splits. Import ply is graded something like B,BB, C, CP on face and back no numbers.

Also know that different species may have different grading standards, one allowing more defects than the other, additionally the type of cut can also come into play.

If you are painting really the better option is plain MDF or an veneer face with an MDF core, flatter more stable surface for the paint but weighs a ton and it's nasty to work with, I won't use it anymore.

If you can only buy your ply from a lumber supplier, definitely don't buy the low cost import ply from HD, I bought some for a lumber rack thinking no big deal for that but its super unstable - I could see it warping and twisting as it was being cut and assembling it was pure hell...




How can I tell what is cabinet grade plywood? For example this product (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Swaner-Hardwood-Prefinished-Birch-Plywood-Common-3-4-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Actual-0-703-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-971080/203005208) has no mention of grade.

What is specific to Blum slides that makes you prefer to order the drawers?

Thanks

[joe webb]

I have some technical questions

1) cleats supporting the shelf
a) if my shelf is 14" deep. How long would I cut the end cleats?
b) if end cleats are 14" or shorter, I can only attach it to one stud. I see (YouTube) people using just brad nails. Is that strong enough?
c) I see people using brad nails to attach the shelf to the cleat, is it strong enough?
2) cabinets
we put cleats in the back of the cabinet to anchor them to the walls. For a 7ft tall cabinet that we will wall hanging
a) how many cleats needed?
b) how they should be spaced?
3) corners
we have 2 shelves meeting in a corner
a) Do we cut them at 45 degree? Or run one shelf the width of the wall, then other the length of the wall until it touches the first shelf?
b) Do we join the shelves w/ dowels or using a strap under the but join?
c) Let say on the left of a shelf is the wall and on the right is a cabinet. Then we have a cleat on the left. How do we attach it to the cabinet? Pocket holes or add a cleat to the cabinet?

Thanks much

[Thomas McCurnin]

"1) cleats supporting the shelf
a) if my shelf is 14" deep. How long would I cut the end cleats?
b) if end cleats are 14" or shorter, I can only attach it to one stud. I see (YouTube) people using just brad nails. Is that strong enough?"

Yes, I would make them the full width of the shelf. You will need additional wood to screw the cleats into. I'd put some 2x4 nailer strips between studs, or let in some 3/4 ply. One stud is probably not enough purchase for the shelf. Others may have a different opinion. I would open up the wall and configure some nailers. If you cannot get to another stud to attach nailers, I have made some multiple crude 2x4 blocks attached to the single stud which are glued and nailed to the side of the stud and projects out, say 8 inches.

"c) I see people using brad nails to attach the shelf to the cleat, is it strong enough?"

Depends of the anticipated load for the shelf. Me, I would countersink some holes into the cleat and use drywall screws into the stud and/or nailers

"2) cabinets
we put cleats in the back of the cabinet to anchor them to the walls. For a 7ft tall cabinet that we will wall hanging
a) how many cleats needed?
b) how they should be spaced?"

Like most of the people suggested, the weight of the cabinet will be placed on the 2x4 ladder frame on top of the floor. Cleats for the walls would only be used to keep the cabinet from falling over. One cleat ought to do it.

"3) corners
we have 2 shelves meeting in a corner
a) Do we cut them at 45 degree? Or run one shelf the width of the wall, then other the length of the wall until it touches the first shelf?
b) Do we join the shelves w/ dowels or using a strap under the but join?
c) Let say on the left of a shelf is the wall and on the right is a cabinet. Then we have a cleat on the left. How do we attach it to the cabinet? Pocket holes or add a cleat to the cabinet?"

I'd probably put them at 90 degrees and dowel them. This is paint grade.

[Jim Dwight]

When I make a tall cabinet of 3/4 plywood it seems like the sides want to bow out too much. So now I make a shelf near the middle solid, not adjustable, and I put a cleat on the bottom of the fixed shelf and screw it to the wall. I totally agree that a cleat at the top will keep the cabinet upright but if you find you need or want a fixed middle shelf the added cleat will take nearly no time or material. It also tends to suck the cabinet tighter to the wall which looks better.

[joe webb]

Yes, I would make them the full width of the shelf. You will need additional wood to screw the cleats into. I'd put some 2x4 nailer strips between studs, or let in some 3/4 ply. One stud is probably not enough purchase for the shelf. Others may have a different opinion. I would open up the wall and configure some nailers. If you cannot get to another stud to attach nailers, I have made some multiple crude 2x4 blocks attached to the single stud which are glued and nailed to the side of the stud and projects out, say 8 inches.



Thanks Tom. I would like to avoid opening the drywalls at all cost. It is such a pain to fix drywalls. I would rather attach a piece of plywood of the same height as the cabinet on the wall. Basically make it look like multiple cabinets side by side, wall to wall. While I don't like that look, it seems much less work than fixing drywalls.

[joe webb]

When I make a tall cabinet of 3/4 plywood it seems like the sides want to bow out too much. So now I make a shelf near the middle solid, not adjustable, and I put a cleat on the bottom of the fixed shelf and screw it to the wall. I totally agree that a cleat at the top will keep the cabinet upright but if you find you need or want a fixed middle shelf the added cleat will take nearly no time or material. It also tends to suck the cabinet tighter to the wall which looks better.

Thanks Jim. To save me from fixing the baseboard, I am gonna hang the cabinet above the base board. Say 10" from the floor. Much simpler. Just need the walls to be plumb. I plan to make cabinets with 2 fixed shelves. Thus we can have 4 cleats (top, bottom, under the 2 fixed shelves).

Do people usually put a cleat/ledger at the bottom from the cabinet to rest on? I think the majority of the weight will be shifted vertical down and applied to that cleat, then the back cleats are just to prevent the cabinet from tipping over.