Cold creep in modified PVA glues?

[Jamie Buxton]

Ordinary wood glue, for instance Titebond original, is infamous for cold creep. Does anybody know if the modified PVAs like Titebond II or Titebond III creep less?

[Frank Pratt]

That's a good question. I suspect the TB II would creep a little less than original, because it seems to cure a little harder. I don't think I'd use it on any crazy bent laminations though.

[Mel Fulks]

I've used it and not seen creep. But mainly I use the powder Weldwood stuff. I still say creep is an old white glue thing.
You could ask the Titebond reps, they always answer fast.

[Jim Becker]

I've experienced "creep" with TB-III for sure...

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah, nobody likes Titebond 111

[John TenEyck]

Any thermoplastic glue will creep if the temperature and stress is high enough to exceed the shear strength. I know lots of folks say they use PVA type glues w/o issue. I'm sure it's true as long as the temp. and stress levels are low enough. But like Jim, I have seen creep with TB type glues (had to be Original or TB II because III hadn't been invented yet) in simple flat laminated table legs. Every year I can feel the joints as the two 6/4 pieces of stock move with the seasonal changes in RH. I sure wouldn't use TB III for an exterior door that will get any exposure to direct sun.

John

[Mark Bolton]

They all creep for me and with regards to sun/heat just leave any one of them in a car in the sun (even if they are not in the direct sun) for an hour or two and you'll see immediate glueline failure. It gets worse the higher up the "ultimate" chart you get. TBIII will fail in a vehicle in an hour or less. That's a pretty extreme test for their ultimate value.

[Mike King]

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2015/03/25/users-guide-to-pva-glue
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2007/07/01/how-strong-is-your-glue
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2013/04/04/safer-glues-for-veneer-and-bent-laminations

If glue creep is really an issue, it would seem Unibond 800 is your best bet.

Mike

[Jamie Buxton]

[url]...If glue creep is really an issue, it would seem Unbind 800 is your best bet...

Unibond 800 is a urea-formaldehyde glue. I used to use it for bent lamination, but stopped. I was concerned about formaldehyde exposure. Formaldehyde is a known carcinogen, and the whole building industry is moving away from it. Now I use epoxy when I need a no-creep glue, and when I'm willing to use a two-component glue. I keep hoping to find a one-component low-creep glue, hence the original post in this thread.

[John TenEyck]

Unibond 800 works great, especially in a vacuum bag where the pressures are low. Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue works well, too, but according to the instructions requires much higher pressures, higher than what you can get in a vacuum bag. I used to use mostly PRG because it was easy to obtain but I'm switching back to Unibond 800 after having a couple of bond failures with shop sawn veneer. But both products have essentially zero creep and I have used them for many bent laminations w/o problems.

As far as the formaldehyde in both products, everyone has to decide for them self what risk they are willing to take. Gasoline has benzene, another known carcinogen, and most of us fill up the tank on our car, lawnmower, etc. w/o even thinking about it.

John

[Mark Bolton]

Unibond 800 is a urea-formaldehyde glue. I used to use it for bent lamination, but stopped. I was concerned about formaldehyde exposure. Formaldehyde is a known carcinogen, and the whole building industry is moving away from it. Now I use epoxy when I need a no-creep glue, and when I'm willing to use a two-component glue. I keep hoping to find a one-component low-creep glue, hence the original post in this thread.

Seems the only one part option with no Formaldahyde (reasonably speaking) is PU which sucks for the mess. Im running epoxy as well as opposed to UF but I dont know which is worse for mess, epoxy or PU. If you can get pretty accurate with PU the mess can be minimized but without a doubt if you wanting to ensure full coverage there is no way around it. Epoxy is really no better in that regard so I have been holding epoxy back for the most extreme situations.

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks John,good detail. I've used a lot of the plastic resin stuff for glueing up large ellipses. In those cases the only
"clamps" are the lumber banders. Bands are no closer together than 8 to 10 inches. And in the middle flatter areas I can actually pick up the plies an inch or more off the form. I've always put glue on both sides,
I ve seen some try "heavy coat " to just one side . That did not work. Never used Unibond but always heard its "the real
stuff".

[Edward Dyas]

Cold creep can be caused by different reasons. On water soluble glues humidity can make the glue swell up in damp weather. It can also be caused by wood movement if the wood shrinks leaving the glue line so an exterior glue won't be exempt from the phenomenon.

[Mark Daily]

What the heck is cold creep? Is my furniture going to fall apart?:eek:
I use Titebond II and III...

[John TenEyck]

What the heck is cold creep? Is my furniture going to fall apart?:eek:
I use Titebond II and III...

Cold creep is shear (displacement) of the glued surfaces at room temperature, and happens when the shear stress exceeds the creep strength of the glue. It's often seen with joints that go out of alignment with changes in seasonal expansion/contraction of pieces that are glued together, like in a tabletop, or parts made up from laminated pieces. Another case is in bent laminations that try to straighten out with time.

Your furniture is not likely to fall apart, but if it does it will do so slowly if cold creep is the problem. But don't take anything you made with TB glues in bent laminations out in the hot sun as Mark pointed out.

And for those using epoxy in exterior projects, as I often do, recognize that many of them including West Systems loose substantial strength at elevated temperature, similar to PVA glues.

John

[John TenEyck]

Seems the only one part option with no Formaldahyde (reasonably speaking) is PU which sucks for the mess. Im running epoxy as well as opposed to UF but I dont know which is worse for mess, epoxy or PU. If you can get pretty accurate with PU the mess can be minimized but without a doubt if you wanting to ensure full coverage there is no way around it. Epoxy is really no better in that regard so I have been holding epoxy back for the most extreme situations.

Mark, are you aware that white vinegar cleans up wet epoxy easily and completely? I never knew that until I read it on the back of a System Three T-88 bottle.

John

[Edward Dyas]

It's when you have a good joint, usually an old glue joint that you can run your hand over the joint and feel the seem raised.

[Mark Daily]

Cold creep is shear (displacement) of the glued surfaces at room temperature, and happens when the shear stress exceeds the creep strength of the glue. It's often seen with joints that go out of alignment with changes in seasonal expansion/contraction of pieces that are glued together, like in a tabletop, or parts made up from laminated pieces. Another case is in bent laminations that try to straighten out with time.

Your furniture is not likely to fall apart, but if it does it will do so slowly if cold creep is the problem. But don't take anything you made with TB glues in bent laminations out in the hot sun as Mark pointed out.

And for those using epoxy in exterior projects, as I often do, recognize that many of them including West Systems loose substantial strength at elevated temperature, similar to PVA glues.

John

Thanks John, don’t know why I’ve never heard of this. I thought these things were due to expansion/contraction of the wood itself.

Just ran across this article: http://brownellfurniture.com/factors-contributing-to-glue-creep-in-woodworking/

Will longer clamping times reduce the amount of creep?

[Frank Pratt]

Mark, are you aware that white vinegar cleans up wet epoxy easily and completely? I never knew that until I read it on the back of a System Three T-88 bottle.

John

I did not know that, and it will be a bit of a game changer for me when using epoxy. Thanks for posting.

[Jacob Reverb]

Just be sure to wash it off your hands ASAP...as I understand it, the vinegar emulsifies/makes the amines water-soluble, increasing chances for skin sensitization...

Gojo Orange is also good for cleaning up green/wet epoxy.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks John, don’t know why I’ve never heard of this. I thought these things were due to expansion/contraction of the wood itself.

Just ran across this article: http://brownellfurniture.com/factors-contributing-to-glue-creep-in-woodworking/

Will longer clamping times reduce the amount of creep?

Leaving the joints clamped long enough to assure the glue has dried sufficiently is always a good idea but it won't prevent creep afterwards. It's an inherent property of the glue itself. If you want to minimize creep use a glue with better creep resistance.

John

[Tony Zona]

What, pray tell, is PU?

Why do we have to use acronyms? It makes reading posts so difficult sometimes. And who wants to have to search anywhere to figure out what somebody said?

I know as soon as somebody says what PU means I’ll say, “Aha, I should have guessed that."

But right now what is PU, please? Have mercy.

[Phil Mueller]

PU: polyurethane glue...best known is Gorilla Glue.

[Tony Zona]

Thank you.

[Andrew Seemann]

So let's keep this in perspective folks, the "creep" that a glue like titebond 1 exhibits has almost no detrimental effect on most of the woodworking that most folks here do. It says not to use it for structural applications, but that refers to something like laminating roof beams for a hockey arena, not the structure of an entertainment center. Yes, it does creep a little between wood with different grain orientation, but that is probably more helpful than not given the other option is joint failure or cracked wood. When you add in the low toxicity, low cost, and ease of use, it makes sense that it is as popular as it is (and that is from someone who had a hide-glue-snob phase).

Stringed instrument makers encounter forces much higher than most case good woodworkers, and though there is raging debate amongst makers about glue, most instrument makers when cornered, will say that the instruments they made in their early days with titebond have held up just fine.

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree with Andrew.

[Tom Trees]

Random thought about this
Does thickness of a table or more importantly a workbench come into the equation.
I was thinking of laminating my bench with hide but chose regular Titebond in the end.
Wondering if you folks think a workbench is less likely to creep at 4" thick?
Not that I'd be getting it wet or in the sun, but for interests sake.

Tom

[Larry Edgerton]

I use West System for bent laminations, and yes it can be messy. One thing I do to make my life easier is use the protective film you would use on a construction site for floors, self adhering, on the top of the bench. strait laminations with no stress, Titebond II.

I also use that same plastic film to line the curved cauls.

[Mark Bolton]

Why do we have to use acronyms?

Unfortunately there is an acronym in the subject line... sorry ;-) They are everywhere and its simply faster and easier than typing out urea formaldehyde to type UF in an adhesive thread. Or some may just reference it as Unibond? Same with PVA and Polyvinyl Acetate, or CA and CyanoAcrylate. Or are we suppose to type PU-Polyurethane-(glue not the finish)-Gorilla Glue every time we reference PU?

Its life. Searching is good. You find lots of other information along the way.

It'll be ok ;-)

[Mike Henderson]

So let's keep this in perspective folks, the "creep" that a glue like titebond 1 exhibits has almost no detrimental effect on most of the woodworking that most folks here do. It says not to use it for structural applications, but that refers to something like laminating roof beams for a hockey arena, not the structure of an entertainment center. Yes, it does creep a little between wood with different grain orientation, but that is probably more helpful than not given the other option is joint failure or cracked wood. When you add in the low toxicity, low cost, and ease of use, it makes sense that it is as popular as it is (and that is from someone who had a hide-glue-snob phase).

Stringed instrument makers encounter forces much higher than most case good woodworkers, and though there is raging debate amongst makers about glue, most instrument makers when cornered, will say that the instruments they made in their early days with titebond have held up just fine.

I've made quite a few laminated parts for projects, including rockers for several rocking chairs, using Titebond glue and none of them show any "creep".

During one of my visits to Sam Maloof, I asked Sam what he used for the laminations for his rockers (the actual "skates" or rockers). He pointed to a shelf with several bottles of Titebond glue, from Titebond I to Titebond III and said, "I choose which one to use by the color of the wood."

Mike

[Frank Pratt]

I've made quite a few laminated parts for projects, including rockers for several rocking chairs, using Titebond glue and none of them show any "creep".

During one of my visits to Sam Maloof, I asked Sam what he used for the laminations for his rockers (the actual "skates" or rockers). He pointed to a shelf with several bottles of Titebond glue, from Titebond I to Titebond III and said, "I choose which one to use by the color of the wood."

Mike

Well, if it's good enough for Sam...

[Brian Holcombe]

I think creep also must be affected by design and accuracy of fit ups.

I have a table in front of me that has been in direct sunlight hours a day, made with Titebond III that shows nothing of creep or even much of a seam at all. Of course the tenons are flush twice a year. This table is about 5 years old now.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/img_4279.jpg

[John TenEyck]

Random thought about this
Does thickness of a table or more importantly a workbench come into the equation.
I was thinking of laminating my bench with hide but chose regular Titebond in the end.
Wondering if you folks think a workbench is less likely to creep at 4" thick?
Not that I'd be getting it wet or in the sun, but for interests sake.

Tom

Creep is the response of the glue to shear stress on the joint. In bending, thickness makes a difference in that thick lumber will deflect less than thinner stuff for the same applied load. With respect to the impact of seasonal expansion/contraction on shear stress due to mismatched grain orientation from one board to the next, however, thickness makes no difference.

John

[Mark Bolton]

I think creep also must be affected by design and accuracy of fit ups.

There is no thinking about that one. Thats plainly obvious. But in a lot of day to day work there is no time/profit in buddhist monk style fitup, grain/board/material selection, highly detailed fitment (doesnt mean your a slob), and so on. And it makes you look to options that allow you to move fast, make a quality product, with perfectly acceptable fitment, and take a few weeks of vacation over the course of the year that isnt funded by a spouses salary and health care.

Who would care if you could feel a fingernail of creep in a Maloof inspired rocker or seat for that matter that is against the floor and will likely never see the touch of a hand other than the cleaning staff who wipes down the hardwoods on their sweep through of your $3K rocking chairs? But when youre making reasonably every-day work and you have a supposed bread and butter adhesive that creeps to the point of being noticeable or even worse breaking the finish with reasonably modest production methods, it gives you a bit of pause.

I have personally never had a creep problem with TB Original or Super and that's what I stick with for interior day to day work.

[Brian Holcombe]

Mark, I've moved away from using Titebond III mainly because of your posts and the because I want something more easily repairable than Titebond III (which is not easily repairable as I understand it). So please don't confuse me with writing off what you're saying. I did want to point out my experience, which IMO is quite valid for small craft where the joint can be obsessed over a bit. Still, my time is valuable as well hence my reasoning behind doing my best to understand glues and their effect over time. For me, however, it is worth it to tune a joint lightly by hand. The extra 30 seconds per glue up has little effect in my shop.

When I first started reading posts about the problems with TB III I had an immediate raised eyebrow, but I've been keeping an eye on my older work but haven't found anything that is out of line with similar work. I have Moller (Danish made) chairs in my office, I feel the joints and there is a very minuscule amount of raised area at some joints most are flush. My work seems to be about the same.

Oddly enough I've had more issues with Hide glue which supposedly does not creep, so anymore I'm using mainly Titebond II and will probably move to Titebond original for work that could possibly need repair at some future point (chairs, tables, etc).

[Mark Bolton]

I'm using mainly Titebond II and will probably move to Titebond original for work that could possibly need repair at some future point (chairs, tables, etc).

We all have to do what works for the work we do. My point with II and III is that TB is pretty much screwing the retail consumer with their marketing and people think if original is good, I has to be better, II is even better, and now III is "THE ULTIMATE". Wonderful for them, masterful marketing. I will guarantee you their marketing department will directly reflect that campaign in their home center sales.

Any work that is put together with the utmost of precision, barring resistance to water, can probably be held together with a film of water. Thats not the world the bulk of us live in. And laying up a bread and butter table top when your trying to be productive and competing on price that will creep enough to break a high end film finish is a no go. But if your work affords prime material, edging/jointing oversize, stickering, two weeks edge and joint again, two weeks, on and on (not that Im saying that you),... then yes... pretty much any glue will do.

[Mel Fulks]

Years ago I had to "sponge" just completed furniture. Let it dry then sand real lightly to remove fuzz. In that process
I sometimes noticed a slight shift at a joint would appear ...and require more sanding. We were told that step was especially important as we were using machine planed wood. Is it possible that some shift
attributed to glue creep is just shift on non sponged pieces? We were using hot hide glue, so no creep there.

[Mark Daily]

Leaving the joints clamped long enough to assure the glue has dried sufficiently is always a good idea but it won't prevent creep afterwards. It's an inherent property of the glue itself. If you want to minimize creep use a glue with better creep resistance.

John
Ok, thanks John

[Brian Holcombe]

We all have to do what works for the work we do. My point with II and III is that TB is pretty much screwing the retail consumer with their marketing and people think if original is good, I has to be better, II is even better, and now III is "THE ULTIMATE". Wonderful for them, masterful marketing. I will guarantee you their marketing department will directly reflect that campaign in their home center sales.

Any work that is put together with the utmost of precision, barring resistance to water, can probably be held together with a film of water. Thats not the world the bulk of us live in. And laying up a bread and butter table top when your trying to be productive and competing on price that will creep enough to break a high end film finish is a no go. But if your work affords prime material, edging/jointing oversize, stickering, two weeks edge and joint again, two weeks, on and on (not that Im saying that you),... then yes... pretty much any glue will do.

I agree, I think they should be sold more along the lines of what their purpose is but not much I can do to change that.

That actually describes my work because I have a long lead time for finished projects and so my prep can be done in stages with very little effect on the overall time consumed because I prep for multiple projects at one time. I like to bring in lumber early, acclimatize it to the shop. Rough cut, leave it for a week, joint, leave it overnight, joint again, thickness oversize. Build a panel, re-joint, then thickness tp final. If you have 2 months lead time, there is no harm in doing it this way. When you're doing this for every project needed for the next few months it doesn't mess up your schedule or add much to time frame and it helps me to produce a better product.

I make things like shoji screens where the it is much more time wasteful to throw away a stile that bowed than it is to work in stages. Throwing away material that costs $15/bf and is only available in 20" x 8/4" slabs gets pricey in a hurry.

I chucked a bunch of yellow cedar that all bowed from fast processing and I learned that lesson, once was painful enough.

[Mark Bolton]

Is it possible that some shift attributed to glue creep is just shift on non sponged pieces?

This is something I am sure many here are especially tuned to. We spray nearly 100% waterborne finishes in the shop so its a daily issue. Nearly 100% is like 99.999985%. And using waterborne this sort of stuff rears its ugly head constantly and water grain raise is critical.

Shops that plane a lot of material and no onboard sharpening, and you run your knives down a ways you will #1 develop a knick or knicks in your knives that will pound down the wood fibers at that knick as opposed to cutting. You will never see the issue. You can run the material through a widebelt or drum, sand with RO til your blue in the face. Take every pain in the world. Stain, and into the booth, and on the first coat of finish... poof. Up comes a perfectly straight planer mark. On any stained material that mark will appear as a light streak because the wood fibers when re-hydrated swell up and expose the raw wood below. Raw material its so obvious you can feel it with your hands and see it in low angle raking light.

We will raise grain with water usually twice and sometimes more way before any material ever makes it to final sanding.

Of course there could be an argument that water grain raise is contributing to what we think of as creep however agan there is no issue (or far less than perceptible) with TB original and Super. So my guess has always been that the practice of grain raising with water is a good one. Surface water on KD material is a zero issue for us. I also make it a practice to water-wipe most everything anyway in the event there is a rogue waterspot or something that will pop out on finishing. Thats an old trick from the construction days. You have a bunch of pine doors that may have been unloaded in a light sprinkle of rain or a passing shower. Sand them, hit them with stain, and the waterspots are out like a sore thumb and there is no way to get rid of them. Get in the habit of a water wipe on everything by default and you simply turn the entire door into a giant water spot and go on with your day.

Im sure many here have read about issues with biscuits telegraphing through finish when using PVA and people leaving the biscuit slots unglued and only gluing the face of the boards as opposed to the NYW practice of brushing the biscuit slots and biscuits full of glue. The same issue would be true for Domino's. If the slot/biscuit/domino is close enough to the surface you could have a swelling/shrinkage issue there due to moisture in the glue an so on.

[John TenEyck]

[QUOTE=Brian Holcombe;2951151]I think creep also must be affected by design and accuracy of fit ups.

I have a table in front of me that has been in direct sunlight hours a day, made with Titebond III that shows nothing of creep or even much of a seam at all. Of course the tenons are flush twice a year. This table is about 5 years old now.



Whether or not creep happens is very much affected by design. Maloof's rockers didn't exhibit creep because the laminations he used were thin enough that the stress was lower than the creep strength of the glue he used. But whether or not he started out with thicker laminations, had problems, and moved to thinner ones or just got lucky to start with is unknown to me. Most folks are familiar with spring back with bent laminations. That happens when the shear stress on the glue joints exceeds its creep strength. Switching to a glue with higher creep strength will yield lower or no spring back. This is where UF and epoxy glues excel. Maloof either through trial and error or luck ended up with laminations that kept the shear stress of the laminations in his rockers belong the creep strength of TBIII.

Similarly, your table shows no creep for the same reason, only more so. Where is the stress? Being in the sun doesn't increase the stress. It only lowers the creep strength of PVA and other thermoplastic glues. Unless you racked the joinery during glue-up there's essentially no stress on the joints in your table. But build an exterior door with TBIII, especially with wide panels glued up from several boards, and put it facing South or West with direct sun exposure. I think you will be disappointed.

For most interior applications you can use pretty much any glue you want. It's only when you add temperature and/or stress that creep strength becomes important; bent laminations, joints and panels under stress at elevated temperature, extreme temperature during shipping, etc.

John

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks, Mark. Good detail that is not seen much. Seeing " sponging" in a place that is not a baby magazine will be new to
some, and helpful.

[Jeffrey Kretz]

What, pray tell, is PU?

Why do we have to use acronyms? It makes reading posts so difficult sometimes. And who wants to have to search anywhere to figure out what somebody said?

I know as soon as somebody says what PU means I’ll say, “Aha, I should have guessed that."

But right now what is PU, please? Have mercy.
I believe that PU is referring to polyurethane.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have bent laminations I can show also I used TB III. I take no issue with people on the opposite side of my viewpoint and experience but my interpretation of glue creep is that the effect is minimal. I recognize that it is very important for certain finishes.

[Tom Trees]

Thanks John for that John :)

Tom

[Larry Edgerton]

This is something I am sure many here are especially tuned to. We spray nearly 100% waterborne finishes in the shop so its a daily issue. Nearly 100% is like 99.999985%. And using waterborne this sort of stuff rears its ugly head constantly and water grain raise is critical.

Shops that plane a lot of material and no onboard sharpening, and you run your knives down a ways you will #1 develop a knick or knicks in your knives that will pound down the wood fibers at that knick as opposed to cutting. You will never see the issue. You can run the material through a widebelt or drum, sand with RO til your blue in the face. Take every pain in the world. Stain, and into the booth, and on the first coat of finish... poof. Up comes a perfectly straight planer mark. On any stained material that mark will appear as a light streak because the wood fibers when re-hydrated swell up and expose the raw wood below. Raw material its so obvious you can feel it with your hands and see it in low angle raking light.

We will raise grain with water usually twice and sometimes more way before any material ever makes it to final sanding.

Of course there could be an argument that water grain raise is contributing to what we think of as creep however agan there is no issue (or far less than perceptible) with TB original and Super. So my guess has always been that the practice of grain raising with water is a good one. Surface water on KD material is a zero issue for us. I also make it a practice to water-wipe most everything anyway in the event there is a rogue waterspot or something that will pop out on finishing. Thats an old trick from the construction days. You have a bunch of pine doors that may have been unloaded in a light sprinkle of rain or a passing shower. Sand them, hit them with stain, and the waterspots are out like a sore thumb and there is no way to get rid of them. Get in the habit of a water wipe on everything by default and you simply turn the entire door into a giant water spot and go on with your day.

Im sure many here have read about issues with biscuits telegraphing through finish when using PVA and people leaving the biscuit slots unglued and only gluing the face of the boards as opposed to the NYW practice of brushing the biscuit slots and biscuits full of glue. The same issue would be true for Domino's. If the slot/biscuit/domino is close enough to the surface you could have a swelling/shrinkage issue there due to moisture in the glue an so on.

Just to add to what Mark has outlined, the same hold true with strips prepared for laminations. If you planer is compressing these same marks, and you use waterbased glue, it can show up in the lamination, so again sponge and scrap/sand.

[Joe Jensen]

Unibond 800 works great, especially in a vacuum bag where the pressures are low. Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue works well, too, but according to the instructions requires much higher pressures, higher than what you can get in a vacuum bag. I used to use mostly PRG because it was easy to obtain but I'm switching back to Unibond 800 after having a couple of bond failures with shop sawn veneer. But both products have essentially zero creep and I have used them for many bent laminations w/o problems.

As far as the formaldehyde in both products, everyone has to decide for them self what risk they are willing to take. Gasoline has benzene, another known carcinogen, and most of us fill up the tank on our car, lawnmower, etc. w/o even thinking about it.

John

John, a vacuum bag at 25in of mercury exerts over 1800 lbs per sq ft. Much higher than anything other than a hydraulic press in an industrial setting.

[John TenEyck]

True, but if you look at the literature for PRG you'll see that 1800 lbs/sq ft is not even close to what's needed for that product. That said, it does work ok in a vacuum bag as long as you apply at a rate of 35 sq ft /lb of resin instead of the recommended rate of 40 sq ft. At least that's what I found using shop sawn veneer.

John

[Andrew Hughes]

Not sure if it’s been mentioned yet but there is a upside to using Pva glue for laminations.
Its not very expensive and the glue doesn’t damage your handtools and jointer knives.
I learned my lesson with plastic resin glue on curved drawer fronts with half blind dovetails.
My handsaw my jointer my chisels all took a hit from the glue.

It’s not a easy thing to make a long thick table without glue lines.
Theres so much to our craft that’s hard to put in words.
Good Luck everyone

[John C Bush]

I've been making fly fishing landing nets for several years to give as gifts and auction donations. Only used TBIII and now I am wondering if I should anticipate a call from a "former" BFF(Best Fishing Friend) that just lost a record Steelhead catch when my beautifully crafted net hoop delaminated!!
Not familiar with Unibond and would appreciated suggestions on a more appropriated glue for this type of lamination. Thanks.

[John TenEyck]

I've been making fly fishing landing nets for several years to give as gifts and auction donations. Only used TBIII and now I am wondering if I should anticipate a call from a "former" BFF(Best Fishing Friend) that just lost a record Steelhead catch when my beautifully crafted net hoop delaminated!!
Not familiar with Unibond and would appreciated suggestions on a more appropriated glue for this type of lamination. Thanks.

Sort of surprising TB III failed considering the ends of the laminations are tied together around the handle. There should be almost no stress on them.

It doesn't take long to get familiar with Unibond 800. It should work well for this application, as should Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue, or Recorcinol, or epoxy. Google is your friend: https://www.vacupress.com/product/unibond-800-1-gallon-liquid-resin/

John

[Mike King]

I've been making fly fishing landing nets for several years to give as gifts and auction donations. Only used TBIII and now I am wondering if I should anticipate a call from a "former" BFF(Best Fishing Friend) that just lost a record Steelhead catch when my beautifully crafted net hoop delaminated!!
Not familiar with Unibond and would appreciated suggestions on a more appropriated glue for this type of lamination. Thanks.

I seriously doubt your net(s) will fail. Realize that Unibond is very toxic stuff and requires a respirator to use. While it has a vey rigid glue line, I personally would not go that direction unless absolutely required (some situations might be the absolute need for a very rigid glue line or for extended working time).

Mike

[John TenEyck]

I seriously doubt your net(s) will fail. Realize that Unibond is very toxic stuff and requires a respirator to use. While it has a vey rigid glue line, I personally would not go that direction unless absolutely required (some situations might be the absolute need for a very rigid glue line or for extended working time).

Mike

Mike, you are entitled to your opinion, but to say that Unibond 800 is very toxic stuff far exceeds the actual hazard. Many of the products we use have risks. Following the manufacturer's PPE recommendations allows us to use them with minimal risk.

John

[mreza Salav]

I have used standard Titebond for countless bent laminations and have not noticed any creep or ill effect. I have used epoxy for that as well if the bent lamination was under greater stress or I needed more open time. Titebond III is simply not a glue I like; it has failed me more than once and I would never use it for bent lamination for sure.

[Mark Bolton]

I've been making fly fishing landing nets for several years to give as gifts and auction donations. Only used TBIII and now I am wondering if I should anticipate a call from a "former" BFF(Best Fishing Friend) that just lost a record Steelhead catch when my beautifully crafted net hoop delaminated!!
Not familiar with Unibond and would appreciated suggestions on a more appropriated glue for this type of lamination. Thanks.


I would be surprised at a failure as well given normal use and the fact that a fishing net in my assumption would typically see intermittent use, a bound hoop, and likely has some serious varnish. That said, I would think in a serious wet environment epoxy all the way around would be a better solution. As John mentions the handle ends of the laminations in a net being bound eliminates a lot of the stress. As Ive stated before, your main concern would be someone tossing the item on the front seat of their truck or the rear deck of their car in the hot sun when then go in for a beer and a sandwich at lunch. You would potentially be able to separate the laminations by hand in that instance.

I dont mean to beat the car thing to death but its the canary in the coal mine. Its no uncommon to make an item for someone and they pick it up at your shop and go run errands. You'd never think they'd lock it in their car in the hot sun, after all, its just a wood gee gaw. Well poof. Its dead. We have even made large furniture deliveries where we pull up with the box truck and the contractor or customer is going to leave them sit in a hot parking lot in full sun for "a while" til' their help arrives. Guaranteed death.

[Larry Edgerton]

I would be surprised at a failure as well given normal use and the fact that a fishing net in my assumption would typically see intermittent use, a bound hoop, and likely has some serious varnish. That said, I would think in a serious wet environment epoxy all the way around would be a better solution. As John mentions the handle ends of the laminations in a net being bound eliminates a lot of the stress. As Ive stated before, your main concern would be someone tossing the item on the front seat of their truck or the rear deck of their car in the hot sun when then go in for a beer and a sandwich at lunch. You would potentially be able to separate the laminations by hand in that instance.

I dont mean to beat the car thing to death but its the canary in the coal mine. Its no uncommon to make an item for someone and they pick it up at your shop and go run errands. You'd never think they'd lock it in their car in the hot sun, after all, its just a wood gee gaw. Well poof. Its dead. We have even made large furniture deliveries where we pull up with the box truck and the contractor or customer is going to leave them sit in a hot parking lot in full sun for "a while" til' their help arrives. Guaranteed death.

I had an interesting one last year.

I built a veneered table, wedges from a central inlay out of Makore. I was curious as to how the finish was doing after a couple of years so I swung in the restaurant before they were open and all of the wedges were curled slightly at the joints. This confused me as the table was built using West and had been perfect through two seasons. About then a company painter that I knew from the install came in and I asked him when that had happened? He told me that the week before a hot water pipe had broken in the crawl below and as it was an instant heater had dumped hot water in the crawl all night. When they came in everything in the restaurant was dripping with water and the place was a steamy sauna.

So... a couple of days later the designer I had worked with on this project calls me and tells me my table is failing never mentioning the broken pipe. I informed her that I knew the real reason and that it would not be taken care of at no charge, and that they should call the insurance company as the cost would be between $7-9K. The silence on the other end of the line was telling. I knew she was trying to con me, and you know how that makes one feel.

I did not fix the table.

[Mark Bolton]

I had an interesting one last year.

I built a veneered table, wedges from a central inlay out of Makore. I was curious as to how the finish was doing after a couple of years so I swung in the restaurant before they were open and all of the wedges were curled slightly at the joints. This confused me as the table was built using West and had been perfect through two seasons. About then a company painter that I knew from the install came in and I asked him when that had happened? He told me that the week before a hot water pipe had broken in the crawl below and as it was an instant heater had dumped hot water in the crawl all night. When they came in everything in the restaurant was dripping with water and the place was a steamy sauna.

So... a couple of days later the designer I had worked with on this project calls me and tells me my table is failing never mentioning the broken pipe. I informed her that I knew the real reason and that it would not be taken care of at no charge, and that they should call the insurance company as the cost would be between $7-9K. The silence on the other end of the line was telling. I knew she was trying to con me, and you know how that makes one feel.

I did not fix the table.

Now that type of luck makes you believe in a god.

[Bradley Gray]

That's not luck - that's diligence - Larry cared enough to check up on his work and it paid off for a change.

[Mark Bolton]

That's not luck - that's diligence - Larry cared enough to check up on his work and it paid off for a change.

Im guessing the vast majority of us check on our work periodically. The luck I was referring to was with regards to the timing of the visit combined with the fortune of running into another sub and getting the lowdown on what happened. 100% agree with regards to a scenario like that working out in the makers favor.

[Bradley Gray]

Im guessing the vast majority of us check on our work periodically. The luck I was referring to was with regards to the timing of the visit combined with the fortune of running into another sub and getting the lowdown on what happened. 100% agree with regards to a scenario like that working out in the makers favor.

I love it when the good guys win one!

[Andrew Hughes]

I’ve taking time to visit my work near me. Once I built a gate out of my very best vertical grain WRC. Someone painted it purple I was so mad. I wanted to poke my finger into someone’s chest and remind them it wasn’t supposed to be painted.
I would have used fence pickets if it were to be painted.
Im still mad about it.
Heres the gate/ door.

[Mel Fulks]

Like it! But it needs to be taller! But I'm sure it will look great once it's painted.

[Andrew Hughes]

Like it! But it needs to be taller! But I'm sure it will look great once it's painted.

Thanks not funny Mel.

[David Buchhauser]

What, pray tell, is PU?

Why do we have to use acronyms? It makes reading posts so difficult sometimes. And who wants to have to search anywhere to figure out what somebody said?

I know as soon as somebody says what PU means I’ll say, “Aha, I should have guessed that."

But right now what is PU, please? Have mercy.

Maybe "pick-up" truck. I'm with you Tony - I hate these acronyms like RAS, TS, etc. Too many lazy typists. I always try to use the full name - except in some recent post where I used the term "VFD" figuring that most of the CNC folks would know what this means (Variable Frequency Drive).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-frequency_drive

And of course everyone knows MDF, HTML, etc.

David

[Mel Fulks]

They are only acronyms if they can be pronounced as a word. And I said in the beginning they would cause acrimony!

[Tony Zona]

No, Mel, that don’t have to be pronounced as a word. I checked three dictionaries to be sure: Miriam-Webster, dictionary.com and the one called the Free dictionary or something.

I’ll keep looking and if I find one that says acronyms have to be pronounceable (is that a word?) I’ll report back.

[Mel Fulks]

Tony, next one you check should be the Oxford English Dictionary. I do find your post interesting as there are so MANY
words that were coined for a specific meaning that have been appropriated because people ....want to. I call that
"creeping highfalutinism". It makes it more dificult to write clearly and succinctly. Replica was coined to mean a copy
made the guy who made the original; its seldom used correctly. So a wise buyer will probably not buy an old piece
of art listed as "replica" without making some calls.