What screws for building cabinet boxes with melamine ?

[Mike Kees]

I have used' confirmats' in the past.Is there any other good options available now ? I will be building production cabinets going forward.

[Jamie Buxton]

Why not use confirmats? They’re designed for that job.

[Mark Hockenberg]

Hi Mike - I've used confirmats and agree with Jamie that they are well suited for mel- Good holding strength and if you install them square they'll help keep the carcass square.

I also use a high quality square drive wood screw on smaller boxes. I like these because there's less sawdust and a smaller hole. When I have the time, I like to use dominos too - Hard to beat for alignment.

[Mike Kees]

I am actually using plywood core melamine for this set of cabinets ,sorry I had that wrong in my title. So I guess that I was wondering if other screw choices would be better for that .

[Mark Hockenberg]

I think a #8 wood screw would be great in this material.

[Gregory King]

I think a #8 wood screw would be great in this material.

That's all I've ever used, although I do look for ones where the threads appear to have a sharper edge. Deck screws rank up there for me.

[Mark Bolton]

I've probably looked at hundreds of not thousands of commercial cabs in out area a d never once seen a confirmat. Screws everywhere on backs decks and unfinished sides but never a confirmat. That's an outrageously expensive way to build boxes that are suppose to be cheap.

[Jeff Duncan]

I've probably looked at hundreds of not thousands of commercial cabs in out area a d never once seen a confirmat. Screws everywhere on backs decks and unfinished sides but never a confirmat. That's an outrageously expensive way to build boxes that are suppose to be cheap.

Not if your set up to do them. Once your set up to do cabinets this way there's no other way that makes sense. I converted maybe 10 years ago or so and never looked back.

JeffD

[Mark Bolton]

Im probably newly converted but we are running CNC and now a 1435SE bander and the shops we compete with are running banders that cost as much as my house and I have NEVER seen a confirmat on a single screw together cab they ship. Of course a bunch of their cabs are case clamp and dowel but none the less the ones that arent never use confirmats. We could never compete if we had to use them.

[johnny means]

Plus one on regular old "drywall" type screws. I find that going a little long provides plenty of pulling strength and avoids spinning. I reserve confirmats for builds that need to be set up and broken down onsite without power tools.

[Bruce Wrenn]

We used Wurth's Assembly screws. Self drilling with nibs under the head.

[Mike Kees]

I am going to go with deck screws. Hopefully can find a box with nibs on the heads. I was curious what others have been using ,thanks for the replies.

[Allen Arin]

confirmats are good for that job the screws that are good to work with melamine a coarse threaded screw,such as a drywall screw,will work better than a standard wood screw or metal screw

[Jim Becker]

I am going to go with deck screws. Hopefully can find a box with nibs on the heads. I was curious what others have been using ,thanks for the replies.

That's a decent choice relative to availability. For carcass construction in plywood, I generally use #8 square drive screws from McFeeley's for ~3/4" material and #7 trim head square drive screws from the same source for ~1/2" material. If your melamine was the more common particle board or MDF type cores, Confirmats definitely would get the nod.

----
Allen, drywall screws are generally discouraged for woodworking, despite how common, available and inexpensive they are, because they are brittle and not designed for holding wood joinery together. "Wood screws" are available in a wide variety of thread configurations, from very fine to pretty darn aggressive and coarse.

[Robert Engel]

I believe Confirmat screws are designed specifically for particle board.

While you certainly can use them in plywood, they aren't necessary I would just use a good wood screw.

I prefer square drive screws because the bit will hold the screw.

But I also use quite a lot of GRK screws.

[Mark Daily]

I believe Confirmat screws are designed specifically for particle board.

While you certainly can use them in plywood, they aren't necessary I would just use a good wood screw.

I prefer square drive screws because the bit will hold the screw.

But I also use quite a lot of GRK screws.

Ditto on the GRK screws- excellent choice!

[Edwin Santos]

Hi,
Once upon a time, I was taught when screwing two pieces of wood together, to seek out a screw with a shank about the length of the thickness of the first piece you are screwing through.

However I see that drywall screws are popular here and they have no shank. So what gives? Was I given bad advice?

[Jim Becker]

Hi,
Once upon a time, I was taught when screwing two pieces of wood together, to seek out a screw with a shank about the length of the thickness of the first piece you are screwing through.

However I see that drywall screws are popular here and they have no shank. So what gives? Was I given bad advice?
No you were given good advise. Dry wall screws are discourages for woodworking, despite many folks using them because they are cheap and available.

[Mike Kees]

Aw come on Jim,drywall screws are good for..... well drywall. :D I refuse to use them for anything else as well.

[Jeff Duncan]

Yeah I don't use drywall screws for anything but drywall either. They're the cheapest screw you can buy and it shows in how easy it is to snap them. They're are plenty of better screws out there besides the confirmats. But you can't do better than confirmats in melamine boxes IMO.... which are particle board btw.

As far as the financial aspects..... if well under $1 difference in screws per box causes you to lose jobs, your in one heck of a tough market! I just bid a project with about $26k worth of melamine boxes. Cost for the screws would be well under $100;)

Lastly, though I haven't read them in a while, I'm pretty sure AWI specs would not allow using normal screws for melamine boxes. So if your bidding contracts that call for AWI specs.... may be worth considering:cool:

good luck,
JeffD

[Jim Becker]

But you can't do better than confirmats in melamine boxes IMO.... which are particle board btw.

Note that the OP indicated that the melamine material being used is plywood core rather than particle board. Hence, the deeper screw discussion. ;)

[Dave Sabo]

Am I the only one that thinks "screwing" together carcasses in a production environment is folly ? There are more efficient ways in both time and cost.

Part of the confirmat advantage is that it's thick cross section act like a dowel, providing strength in shear.

[Jim Becker]

Dave, I think there are multiple factors that come into play. Screws and glue with components that are cut true can be pretty darn strong. Several local professionals use that method for custom cabinetry. Now I'm talking one or two man shops, not assembly lines with boring machines for doweling, etc. As always, there are multiple methods that work well.

[Mike Kees]

3/4" plywood core melamine. I am also using 1mm edge tape instead of 1/2mm . I am in a market where people want real good not cheap and as such do not mind paying slightly more. The deck screws are working nicely along with Rooclear glue ( made specifically for melamine). Thanks to everyone for the comments and advice. I plan on sticking with Confirmats with particle board core melamine.

[Robert Engel]

3/4" plywood core melamine. I am also using 1mm edge tape instead of 1/2mm . I am in a market where people want real good not cheap and as such do not mind paying slightly more. The deck screws are working nicely along with Rooclear glue ( made specifically for melamine). Thanks to everyone for the comments and advice. I plan on sticking with Confirmats with particle board core melamine.

There are so many ways to save money besides screws (like miscalculating material & 1 trip to suppier buys a lot of screws LOL)

If you don't mind me asking, I work with melamine quite a bit & I'm curious why you're gluing. I didn't know there was a glue.

Also why plywood core? What is the name of it? I know some people don't like PB for sink units.

I've used Panolam, which no doubt is a better product, but much more expensive. I think its laminate, not melamine.

[Mike Kees]

Robert the first set of cabinets I built for my parents about 20 years ago I learned from a German guy who sharpened all my blades. He was a high end cabinet guy and he introduced me to Rooclear. It is amazing stuff,he glued two scraps and then handed it to me a couple days later and told me to take it home and try to break the joint. The melamine failed ,not the joint. The plywood core melamine was something my wholesale supplier suggested. Not sure what brand ,I could find out. It has plys like baltic birch and works nice. Price wise this stuff was double standard melamine ,but for this job worked out to $300ish more. I am not trying to compete with average cabinets,I want to be better. There is a market for good work where I live,so I have set my shop up to be able to do it. Ask me how it turns out in five or six years. For now I have a whole winter of work lined up.

[Jim Becker]

Mike, that material sounds like a really nice product for when you want the melamine surface, but also want a sturdier, more durable structure than the typical particle board provides. I also agree with your philosophy of building "better".

[Mark Bolton]

As far as the financial aspects.....

Lastly, though I haven't read them in a while, I'm pretty sure AWI specs would not allow using normal screws for melamine boxes. So if your bidding contracts that call for AWI specs.... may be worth considering:cool:

good luck,
JeffD

Wasnt referring to the cost of the screws themselves as the only cost. But I agree. Whatever your setup for sets what works best.

AWI, to my knowledge, doesnt have any restriction of course other than if your using confirmats as the only means of a butt joint connection (why else would you used them). Blind Dado, Dado, Rabbet, etc.. all would use screws, nails, staples, etc.. Im not sure how fussy it would be but I dont even think there is a call out on specific screw types other than with regards to exposed fasteners but I would imagine virtually no one in the AWI world would be using a drywall screw for anything anyway for all the reasons mentioned and more.

Most everything bid is AWI custom grade (not an AWI certified shop but its whats spec'd) on most everything. Youve gotta have some other means on finished ends anyway so confirmats just dont make sense to me given the overall cost (fasteners, machinery, time, etc).

As with everything, all comes down to your shop, and your work. The AWI issue specifically is why we dont use them. A commercial job with a ton of boxes with finished ends both sides and they'd never get used.

[Mark Bolton]

There are so many ways to save money besides screws (like miscalculating material & 1 trip to suppier buys a lot of screws LOL)

Thankfully, perhaps other than solvent finishes, and some clears, we dont make any trips to the supplier ;-) I agree, miscalculating materials would be a disaster. Our vendor offers veneer core melamine and just like the OP its just twice the price of down and dirty PB core white/black. They only stock the VC in white and black but it is a much nicer product. I think cheap white is like 23 a sheet and the veneer core is around 45. Its lighter, and a better product in my opinion, but tough to justify for most white work for me.

Seems once were up in the $40/sheet range were well into the Tafisa world and thats a much nicer product than the down and dirty stuff.

[Mel Fulks]

There are AWI shops that always use sheet rock screws for the boxes.

[Mark Bolton]

There are AWI shops that always use sheet rock screws for the boxes.

That wouldnt surprise me in the least, Ive just never seen it. I more often see a phillips or square drive structural wood screw that has some cutting on the countersink only because its common to do all the construction boring from the inner face of the box on the CNC. Most of the bigger shops (way bigger than me) may screw on rabbeted backs and some other stuff but for the most part its dowel and case clamp.

[Dave Sabo]

Dave, I think there are multiple factors that come into play. Screws and glue with components that are cut true can be pretty darn strong. Several local professionals use that method for custom cabinetry. Now I'm talking one or two man shops, not assembly lines with boring machines for doweling, etc. As always, there are multiple methods that work well.

Jim - I understand that. I know "professionals" local to me that use questionable plywood and nail/staple their carcasses together. Those are strong enough too. These guys have been killing it since before the great recession. I doubt any of us here will aspire to copy their methods. Most will question their product in general, citing crap construction ect......

My aim was to get folks to think about the big picture instead of putting out a couple of boxes today and saving a few bucks on some screws. We are not elevating ourselves as professionals by condoning poor practices (like drywall screws or nailing ) simply because they work. A Craftsman tablesaw will cut plywood just like slider from SCMI. Are you going to recommend the former to someone looking to produce cabinets ? That will save a lot more money initially than whether using drywall screws, confirmats , wood dowels, or decking screws. Should we push the blow and go nailing method I mentioned above ? It works. It's fast; nothing to pre-drill. Collated brads are dirt cheap. I don't think many will sign on to that.

[Mark Bolton]

I don't think many will sign on to that.

As it pertains to a profit making shop, with everything to me at least, it comes down to what equipment you have at your disposal, what quantity and consistency of work, and even more than that, what your being compensated to make.

There really arent many more efficient ways to assemble a box quickly (screws/staples/nails). Tons of production operations (not even high tech ones) dont even opt for screws or may run a couple screws and then nail/staple and its all dry. No glue. Lots of very profitable small shops feeding hotels, apartments, and so on, would argue that screws and glue are a waste of time. Nails/staples, dry, no dados, no rabbets, is plenty strong enough. There was a video going around of a shop building hundreds of boxes out of a shop with table saw/panel saw, cordless finish nailers, cordless drills, and thats it. I guess its what they are paid for and willing to do to pay the bills. Box construction, with the exception of full inset, is more an more becoming a non issue with the move to 100% drawers/pull-outs. The interior of the box is never seen by anyone and there is rarely a carcass failure with even the shoddiest of construction. I think of this as we are assembling with pre-finished maple, 1/2" backs, and no one will see the shinny interior but I can buy pre-finished for 2-3 dollars less than raw.

Its great if you have a market thats willing to put their money where their mouth is with regards to allowing you to "elevate" them. But more commonly small shops refuse to build to the level at which they are being compensated, so because they need/want the work, they build to a higher level accepting less compensation. That makes less sense than anything. Its great to try to educate your customer or up-sell them to your perceived better quality but if they look at the options and choose the brad nailed box on price, then thats what you build.

I dont have efficient horizontal boring in the shop so opt for blind dado/screws/glue and even the glue is a wasted step that no other shop does. We dowel on finished ends. Screws are a very inexpensive alternative to a case clamp especially for boxes with no finished ends and I like that the dado (even with the CNC) gives a cleaner interior and registration for faster assembly (no jigs/measuring). If I had a case clamp, horizontal boring, dowel inserter, there would likely be no dado's and no glue (other than the dowels).

This is all of course with regards to pb/mdf/veneer core melamine/laminate boxes. Now you go down the rabbit hole that back in the 80's we supposedly learned that PB was the clear indicator of junk.. and now?... Its often in the highest quality jobs.