Converted the shop today!

[roger wiegand]

After being in a confusing half-and-half state almost forever I finally bit the bullet today and fully converted my shop over to metric. I replaced all the inch measuring strips on my saw fences, got metric blades for my Starrett squares, bought several new Tajima metric measuring tapes (really nice tapes!), and sketched the plan for the coffee table I'm starting to build in units of even centimeters. I even milled some lumber to 65 mm for the legs, having learned how to set the DRO on my new planer to mm.

I'm seriously looking forward to never worrying about what a third of 11/64ths plus 5/16ths is ever again. I'm too old for that stuff.

[Mark Hennebury]

The imperial system was developed to challenge your brain keep you from getting Alzheimer's. I gave up measuring most everything a long time ago, i just use a story stick and transfer, and feel fit most stuff. I still use my digital calipers, (mostly for metalworking) and switch back and forth from metric to standard all the time.

[Brian Holcombe]

I pretty much just use decimal inches, mainly for the same reason is that it gets tiring to convert fractions outside of the typical.

[Mel Fulks]

There was another system. Few years back one of the Scandinavian countries had an odd ball inch. That probably affected
the feet too! Can't find any info now. Never knew anything about it until I bought a 3 inch folding ivory rule. I researched
it then simply because it was too beautifully made to be a mistake.

[Dick Mahany]

I typically used to use decimal inches however have also switched over to metric and enjoy it. One can easily split the 1mm markings in half by eye which produces measurements to ~0.020" or just over 1/64th inches. I really couldn't stand all of those traditional fractional divisions on my tapes and scales. It is still a little difficult to process the traditional sheet of plywood in my head in mm after all of these years of imperial thinking, but I am getting more comfortable with metric woodworking with each new project.

One thing that I'm not going to convert to metric is divisions of pizzas or apple pies............fractions are still fine there :)

[Jim Becker]

I've been working primarily in metric for well over a year now and I've grown to absolutely love it. It does mean I have to be flexible with some of my subcontract customers since in many cases, they are providing inches, but for anything I design and build...it's metric period. SO much easier... I do ask clients to provide decimal inches if that's their preference. :) Congrats on your conversion!

[Rod Sheridan]

Good for you Roger, I did the same thing a decade ago.

Since I design my own furniture going metric was really easy, who would know if a leg was 2" or 50mm wide?

Not having to deal with fractions is great, instead of 3/4" I use 20mm which makes for easy math when designing......Regards, Rod.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

After being in a confusing half-and-half state almost forever I finally bit the bullet today and fully converted my shop over to metric. I replaced all the inch measuring strips on my saw fences, got metric blades for my Starrett squares, bought several new Tajima metric measuring tapes (really nice tapes!), and sketched the plan for the coffee table I'm starting to build in units of even centimeters. I even milled some lumber to 65 mm for the legs, having learned how to set the DRO on my new planer to mm.

I'm seriously looking forward to never worrying about what a third of 11/64ths plus 5/16ths is ever again. I'm too old for that stuff.

Welcome to the bright side of the force. 😄

[Mark Hockenberg]

Roger - Congrats! I guess I'm still in your confused half-and-half state. I've been using a half-baked 32 mm system for building boxes that goes back to when I had my commercial shop. Line boring at 32 mm with 37 mm setback / 1/4" dados for backs at 1/2" from the back... No wonder I can't sleep at night :)

Like you I've standardized on Tajima. I've made Tajima my reference tape in the shop.

[Jon Nuckles]

If only I hadn’t spent so much on imperial starrett squares!

[Dan Baginski]

I need to do this. I’m a math idiot

[Brian Holcombe]

An inch is standardized to 25.4mm, so we're all using metric. :D

I don't have a preference one way or the other for what measurement system I use since I use imperial mainly, metric occasionally and Shaku for shoji making. I grew up with imperial and used mainly decimal inches in the machine shop, after that it was the easiest go-to for me for precise work.

I like fractional for layout, it makes it easy to split thirds for mortise and tenon.

[ray grundhoefer]

A bit off topic but I went to work on my truck brakes today . Pulled out my metric socket hmmm 17 mm to small and 19 mm to big. Guess what they also make an 18 mm ,just not part of my set. Off I go back to the auto parts store again . NOT A BIG fan of metric today

[roger wiegand]

I worked in a lab most of my career, so my days have been 100% metric for as long as I can remember. It's only when I got home to the shop that things got confusing. (Cooking went entirely metric (and by weight rather than volume) quite a while ago for me with the advent of affordable electronic balances.)

[Edwin Santos]

I like fractional for layout, it makes it easy to split thirds for mortise and tenon.

Interestingly and further to your point, I was once told that a particular advantage of Imperial (and it's 12 based predecessors in ancient times) is the ability to split and divide, a feature useful to the process of building and layout.

For example, 10 can be evenly divided by 1, 2, 5 and itself - i.e. 10ths, fifths, halves.

12 can be evenly divided by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and itself - i.e. 12ths, sixths, quarters, thirds, halves - hence more flexibility for the builder, and perhaps more commonsense divisions.

I recall seeing an interesting post here a long time ago about the accuracy of division versus measurement and its use in ancient times.
Not advocating for one system or the other here, just sharing an interesting tidbit of info.

[Ian Radin]

I can't help but be the contrarian here. Looking just at length; Red blooded american system in order of increasing length: inch, hand, link, span, foot, yard, fathom, rod, chain, furlong, cable, mile, nautical mile, league. Poetry, history, tradition, like shakespeare.
Same for dirty commie earth defiling metric system; attometer, femtometer,picometer,nanometer, micrometer, millimeter, …..blah blah….gigameter, terameter. Boring, soulless, as in me Tarzan You Jane. Don't even get me started on their confusion with weight and mass. OK will start, how can you say you "weigh" say 100 kilograms ( a mass unit) when they mean I weigh 980.665 Newtons. Which brings me to the fact that these rats named their force, energy and power units (Newton, Joule and Watt) after dead guys who never used their unclean system. OK, I will say one good thing about the degenerate metric system. Imagine a smiling bug with a hundred legs,call him a centimeter, Now imagine same bug lying on his back, legs curled, eyes closed. Know why it is called an erg? Cause its a Dyne-Centimeter. Ha Ha Ha and Ha. Ian

[Andrew Hughes]

Ian you left out a 3 finger lid.
That was very popular in the 70s and 80s :)

[Jim Dwight]

Never! I cannot think in metric. I have to convert any metric dimension to inches or feet and inches to understand it. But I bought a domino so I will have to occasionally use metric to set it. Like I did today. But several of my steel rulers have metric scales so not a big deal. I use fractional dial calipers for thickness. I could try and keep batteries in stock for my electronic calipers that will display metric but I do not see the point. Inches works fine for me. They work a lot better than mm and cm. But if the metric dimensions work for you that doesn't bother me.

[Tom Bender]

Well I could go metric but most everything is in inches and feet. And I'm comfortable with inches and fractions.

Just a bit off topic, what is wrong with foot pounds of torque? Anyone can understand it. The new thing is Newton meters, which makes sense to a few people.

And while we are at it, what is wrong with PSI? Kilopascal's is nuts!

[ChrisA Edwards]

I got real close to puling the plug today and started adding metric conversion stuff to the cart. Then I came to all my squares and rulers, I don't have a lot, but it's still probably in the $300-$400 range of tooling that will become mostly redundant, guess I could sell some of these.

I need the Incra LS Positioner conversion ($120), a Hammer metric dial gauge for my A3-31 ($100).

So it's probably a $400-$500 proposition, such a tough decision.

[Jim Becker]

Chris, I was fortunate that the set of rules that I already had in the shop were already "dual" metric/Imperial. For my Starett squares, I only needed the replacement rules which I was able to source from Lee Valley. So I got lucky for the most part in that respect. Pretty much all of my power tools are metric by default or are dual scaled.

[David Buchhauser]

I also pretty much use decimal inches, although I can usually do a rough calculation in my head to convert from mm to inches. I just remember it's roughly 0.040" per mm (actually 0.039370078).
It is also handy to have those digital calipers that convert from mm to inches and visa versa.
David

[Jeff Bartley]

It's tough to work in metric when you work on a jobsite and must coordinate with other trades. But if you're indecisive about metric vs imperial you can just make everything 19mm (3/4")......they're equal. 😁

[Jon Grider]

:)
Ian you left out a 3 finger lid.
That was very popular in the 70s and 80s :)And procurement from those with large fingers was always advantageous.

[Ian Radin]

Is a 3 fingered lid what I think it is? If so, as a guy who was in college in the early 60's, I kinda miss the olde days when we sat out in the woods and smoked. Hell now CPA's and judges sniff it and elevate it to fine scotch status, Bah. Also I do want to mention how it starts, first with dual scale speedometers and pretty soon, as in The Invasion of The Body Snatchers, they are here. Don't give them a .3048 meter hold, give em an 25.4 mm and they will take 1609.344 meters. Egads it's to late, they are here. Not even Scotland .9144 meter can save us now.

[glenn bradley]

Congratulations. I’ll just say what I usually say; after nearly 4 decades of dreaming in octal and hex I find imperial very relaxing mentally.

[Bernie Kopfer]

I can't help but be the contrarian here. Looking just at length; Red blooded american system in order of increasing length: inch, hand, link, span, foot, yard, fathom, rod, chain, furlong, cable, mile, nautical mile, league. Poetry, history, tradition, like shakespeare.
Same for dirty commie earth defiling metric system; attometer, femtometer,picometer,nanometer, micrometer, millimeter, …..blah blah….gigameter, terameter. Boring, soulless, as in me Tarzan You Jane. Don't even get me started on their confusion with weight and mass. OK will start, how can you say you "weigh" say 100 kilograms ( a mass unit) when they mean I weigh 980.665 Newtons. Which brings me to the fact that these rats named their force, energy and power units (Newton, Joule and Watt) after dead guys who never used their unclean system. OK, I will say one good thing about the degenerate metric system. Imagine a smiling bug with a hundred legs,call him a centimeter, Now imagine same bug lying on his back, legs curled, eyes closed. Know why it is called an erg? Cause its a Dyne-Centimeter. Ha Ha Ha and Ha. Ian

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on the observer’s point of view, your contrariness will be resolved one funeral at a time. It’s not American, it’s Imperial developed by the English. it’s not Commie, it’s scientific and used by many intelligent people everywhere including so called red blooded Americans.

[Mel Fulks]

Ian, informative and funny. And Mel does not usually enjoy comedy with a serious undercurrent.

[william walton]

Glad for you all who are comfortable with metric. I was taught over 50 years ago that metric would be universal very soon. If that works for you, whatever makes you happy in your shop. Decimal inches for me, 38 years in machining industry and metric was rarely used. Memorized decimal equivalents to the 64th long ago and it's easy for me.

[Jim Becker]

William, interestingly, metric is all but universal with the exception of the "general public" in the US. Most manufacturing went to metric long ago for the most part, for example, which honestly, was necessary because the market is global, not local. The US was "supposed" to make the switch long ago as you mention, but it was never "enforced" and there has been less than ideal support in the K-12 education system, too. There is that one highway in I believe Arizona, however. :) Regardless...folks should use what they are comfortable with. As I mentioned earlier, I made the switch for the most part over a year ago and it's been great. I do have to do some client work in decimal inches because I'm making components for them that go into "inch" products, but for anything I'm designing and building, metric gets the nod. So I'm merely celebrating the OP's decision.

[Ian Radin]

OK, I'll shut up but, I thought calling the SI system commie was obvious (Silly me), It's called humor, as in a joke, you are supposed to laugh. As nobody commented on my force times distance joke maybe an explanation is in order. Applying a force through a distance ( in same direction i.e. dot product) is work, which is energy in transition and has the same units, Just as a Newton-meter is a Joule in mks (meter kilogram second) units in cgs (centimeter gram second) units, force is a dyne (i.e. dynamite, dynamo) and the unit of energy is an erg. So a dyne (dying) centimeter is an erg. Well I think it's funny. Of course when I tell my girlfriend that it's not love, money, hate, greed etc. that makes the world go 'round, but conservation of angular momentum, I'm the only one laughing (not really).

[Bernie Kopfer]

OK, I'll shut up but, I thought calling the SI system commie was obvious (Silly me), It's called humor, as in a joke, you are supposed to laugh. As nobody commented on my force times distance joke maybe an explanation is in order. Applying a force through a distance ( in same direction i.e. dot product) is work, which is energy in transition and has the same units, Just as a Newton-meter is a Joule in mks (meter kilogram second) units in cgs (centimeter gram second) units, force is a dyne (i.e. dynamite, dynamo) and the unit of energy is an erg. So a dyne (dying) centimeter is an erg. Well I think it's funny. Of course when I tell my girlfriend that it's not love, money, hate, greed etc. that makes the world go 'round, but conservation of angular momentum, I'm the only one laughing (not really).

Good that you can laugh at yourself and hope you are the only one laughing. Perhaps you should put off your funeral.

[Mark e Kessler]

Working in engineering labs from jet engines, tribloigy and hotrunners/moldmaking (not that kind of hotrunner...) I am only exposed to metric/micron measurements and I have always worked in imperial for woodworking, however I am finding I like metric for smaller dimensions like under 12" and metric for planer work. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around something like 72" I know what that looks like without measuring, if you asked me what 1829mm looked like i'd be like...

Mark

[Mike King]

Woo hoo! I just installed Brian Lamb's digital readout on my slider. I can now go metric or imperial at the touch of a button! This definitely makes it easier to transition to metric....


Mike

[Flamone LaChaud]

A couple of years ago when I first started getting into Japanese tools, I did what seemed to be the most logical thing (for me). Printed out a spreadsheet (and laminated it) that has equivalent decimal, metric, and Imperial on the same line, so if I know what I'm looking at for one, i can easily cross reference the other two.

[Rob Luter]

Decimal inch guy here. Taking it with me to the grave.

[Derek Cohen]

Chris, I was fortunate that the set of rules that I already had in the shop were already "dual" metric/Imperial. For my Starett squares, I only needed the replacement rules which I was able to source from Lee Valley. So I got lucky for the most part in that respect. Pretty much all of my power tools are metric by default or are dual scaled.

Decimal was introduced when I was 10 or 11 years old, and it was a breath of fresh air after £, shillings and pence. On the other hand, I have always found it easier to visualise feet rather than metres, and height (as in 1.78m or 5'9 1/2", my height) is too difficult. In the shop, it is easier to use Metric to measure, but it is easier to use Imperial to visualise.

For many years I would simply swap between the two. The Starrett combination gauge I use have a dual metric/imperial blade, as do all my tape measures. Much of the time all this is irrelevant anyway, since I avoid measuring where I can and use cutting gauges to transfer cut marks from one piece to another. A chisel is a chisel, unless it is a mortice chisel meeting a plough plane blade, where slaving is important.

However, in recent years the European machines I use (Hammer) are all marked in Metric. Thicknessing to a specific dimension not only is possible and repeatable, but it starts to take on a life of its own. For example, if making a dado by hand (as I still prefer), in the hand tool world one makes the dado first and then you fit a panel to it. In other words, size the panel to the dado or groove. In the power world, this is forgotten or ignored. If you follow the power line, then you need to match to the dominant tool, which may turn out to be the Metric Euro machine. In the end it then just becomes easier to choose one measuring system to fit all.

Having two measuring methods will keep you on your toes .... and either keep your mind active and young ... or age you prematurely :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

In the shop, it is easier to use Metric to measure, but it is easier to use Imperial to visualise.

I don't disagree, but then again, I grew up only knowing Imperial so it's quite natural to visualize things easier that way. Had we grown up in metric only...that would be just as natural, IMHO. I'm getting there in a reasonable way at this point with the metric, however, simply because I'm working with it and that's how my mind adapts. In generally, I can switch between them pretty easy when it's necessary. Most of my gear has combo metric/Imperial scales (SMC/Minimax) and all of my Festool is marked Metric. (all acquired before they started to switch scales for NA sales) The CNC is setup for "inches" post-processor and obviously most of my tooling is in Imperial because that's what's readily available, but I design mostly in metric now. But it's easy to use either metric or decimal inches on that tool.

[roger wiegand]

Not trying to convert anyone else here, gave up on that (on many fronts) decades ago. I decided long ago that worrying about conversions would only drive me crazy, so I try never to convert units. I find I can think equally well in inches or centimeters, degrees farenheit or centigrade-- but if you ask me how many cm in three inches I have to reach for a calculator. I visualize weight and volume in grams and milliliters for small volumes, but gallons and pounds in big volumes. It's weird-- if you ask me to pour out 50 ml of liquid I can usually eyeball it to less than half a ml accuracy, but if you ask for on ounce I'm lucky to be within a factor of two. Shows what 40+ years in the lab will do to you.

[glenn bradley]

OK, I'll shut up

I thought the post was funny and enjoyed it ;-)