Tearout creating a dado using a Stanley 45

[David Ryle]

I'm in the process of building two wardrobes using hand tools only. The problem is while cutting the dados in the carcass I'm getting an unacceptable amount of tearout on the shoulders. Both left and right knickers are sharp, or at least as sharp as I can make them. The iron is sharp, half inch, in width. The lumber is pine, which, I know, is prone to this problem, but still, it seems a lot. Any ideas?

[Warren Mickley]

It sounds as if there is no clearance between the nickers and the blade. You want to be able to see the clearance. For a half inch wide dado, try using a 7/16 cutter. Or use a 1/2 inch cutter to make a dado 17/32 or 9/16.

Of course the nickers have to extend down more than the blade also.

[Richard Line]

Follow Mickey's advice, although I only set the nickers a whisker wider than the blade. To start the dado, I pull the plane backwards across the width of the board to score the dado before any cutting occurs. (How do you set the nickers wider than the blade, use a paper or business card shim under them.) The next things I do is 1) take a utility knife (sharp) and score the nicker tracks deeper (probably not really needed) and 2) score the exit side of the dado with the knife to stop tear our on the exit side of the dado. Then its time to start cutting the dado, the plane's blade is kept at a light cut until I've worked the full length of the dado until there is a sallow dado the full width, you can then deepen the cut.

[steven c newman]

Simple remedy that I use: Once the three backward pulls have been made, I just use a saw to deepen the marks to the depth I need...at the start and "exit" of the dado.

I keep the knickers in line with the edge of the cutters, as I tend to dislike the plane getting stuck in the cut..

On the Stanley 45, depth of the knickers are preset, since they do sit in a "socket" milled into the sides of the skates...You can not adjust them up, or down..period.

Just drag the 45 backwards a few times, use the marks left to guide a saw, saw to the depth you want for the dado....you do not need to saw all the way across, just the first inch or so at each end of the dado. IF the dado is to be 1/2" wide, USE the 1/2" wide cutter, simple as that....
414636
Set up for cutting a dado for the back of a drawer...
414637
drag lines...
414638
A few strokes with the backsaw...
414639
IF the depth stop is set correctly, plane until a dado appears..
414640
Spurs, they are either in use, or stowed up, out of the way.
414641
And..do a test fit...the hardest part for me, is to build a jig to hold each drawer side still, yet make switching to the next side easy..

[Charles Guest]

I'm in the process of building two wardrobes using hand tools only. The problem is while cutting the dados in the carcass I'm getting an unacceptable amount of tearout on the shoulders. Both left and right knickers are sharp, or at least as sharp as I can make them. The iron is sharp, half inch, in width. The lumber is pine, which, I know, is prone to this problem, but still, it seems a lot. Any ideas?

Knife the shoulders, emphasize them with a wide chisel and a thump from the meaty part of your hand or a light mallet tap.

The knives on a Record 050C are far better than the cloverleaf knickers on a 45. They're actual knives made from hardened tool steel and they'll get very sharp. You can use one of these planes straightaway for dadoes, but you need to knife the shoulders first when using a 45. It doesn't take long. It's worth the 'trouble' if you can even call it that.

[Derek Cohen]

I'm in the process of building two wardrobes using hand tools only. The problem is while cutting the dados in the carcass I'm getting an unacceptable amount of tearout on the shoulders. Both left and right knickers are sharp, or at least as sharp as I can make them. The iron is sharp, half inch, in width. The lumber is pine, which, I know, is prone to this problem, but still, it seems a lot. Any ideas?

David, we had a discussion about this in March this year. This is a link to the article I wrote on my website: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasComboDadoMore.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

David, your challenging situation is not unusual. There are just a few neanderthals that are expert in dado plane use. Most use work arounds like knifing lines, sawing lines, etc. You should be able to pick up the dado plane and cut crisp dados using a batten as a guide. I was hit or miss with my Stanley 46. Frustrated, I bought a HNT Gordon 3/4 inch dado plane. When I adjusted the blade and nickers I ran the plane like a Porche on the autobahn. While still not completely confident, I am optimistic about cutting dados with the plane. Keep getting advice and keep trying.

[steven c newman]

414656
Long drawer, needed a false back to look like the real thing..
414657
Soooo....
414658
Rear "back" sits in a rebate..
Grooves for a drawer bottom...? SPDC...
414659
Same Plane, Different Cutter...
414660
Different cutter for a single bead, or..
414661
Same cutter, just rotate the stock....
414662
Take a simple groove, and add...
414663
A tongue milled on a second board..

[steven c newman]

To make either a corner joint..
414664
Or...run the groove along the edge...
414665
For a simple T & G panel glue up...
414666
Stanley did make a dedicated Dado plane, with a pair of knicker you could adjust....you simply bought the width to match the dado being cut. Mine happens to be a 3/8" wide No. 39.

[Mark Rainey]

David, we had a discussion about this in March this year. This is a link to the article I wrote on my website: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasComboDadoMore.html

Regards from Perth

Derek
Derek, that is some impressive research on the dados produced by the Veritas combination plane and HNT Gordon dado plane! The dado width from the HNT 1/2 inch plane blade is only 3/1000’s wider! It is a bit unnerving to get the blade right between the nickers when you are working with such small distances. When you get it there, however, the plane works beautifully.

[Warren Mickley]

I don't think Gordon's dado plane is well engineered.. A lower angle works much better than 60 degrees. In making dados, we don't use a cutting iron the width of the dado we want to make and then try to put the nickers as little as possible outside of the nickers.

If we are making the dado to fit the board that is already sized, we set the nickers the width we want, then pick a cutting iron that is somewhat narrower than the width of the nickers.

More typically we make a dado and then size the timber thickness according to the width of the already made dado. We can size the timber by planing the whole board to the right thickness, by making a small rabbet on the edge, cutting until it fits nicely, or by making a slight chamfer on the underside of the board so that it fits nicely.

Traditional dado planes have a vertical cutter with a nicker at each edge that can be adjusted up or down.

[steven c newman]

Soo..how does the above sales pitch help the OP with his Stanley 45 plane that he already has? Hmmm?

If the spurs and the edges of the cutter are not in-line with each other....the cutter will cause a tear-out because it is cutting outside of the line the spurs are making. If the spurs are out too far (hard to do on the 45, though)leaving the edges of the cutter un-supported....cutter will chatter, and tear-out.

How do I check? with my fingertips, is how. Cutter's edges should be flush with the outside edges of the skates. BTW...bevel on the spurs go to the inside, same as the bevel on the bottom edge of the skate.

So..if the edge of the cutter is outside the line being cut by the spur....you will get tear-out....

Tip: rub a bit of plain old candle along the sides of the skates' outsides, the part that will be rubbing the wall of the dado.

[Derek Cohen]

I don't think Gordon's dado plane is well engineered.. A lower angle works much better than 60 degrees. In making dados, we don't use a cutting iron the width of the dado we want to make and then try to put the nickers as little as possible outside of the nickers.

Warren, my logic agrees with you - this is even more the case with the shoulder plane, which is 60 degrees for planing end grain. However, in practice the HNT Gordon planes work exceedingly well. The superior results I get are obtained consistently. The piece I wrote - on the relationship of the nickers to the blade - demonstrates the close tolerances to work.

The take away for the OP is that sharp nickers, correctly aligned with the blade, should create the desired result (regardless of what plane is used). The shape of the nickers and the angle of the blade are relatively unimportant if they are sharp enough to do their job.

If this is so with the OP’s #45, and it is still not working, then something else is going on, and I am at a loss what it can be .. other than the wood, itself.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

Traditional dado planes have a vertical cutter with a nicker at each edge that can be adjusted up or down.
Warren, Gordon's dado plane has this, if I understand your statement correctly. What most confuses me is that with the resurgence of hand tools, almost no one is reproducing dado planes. Plow planes, rabbet planes, side rabbet planes, even hollows and rounds. No tool makers are making them. Yet we Neanders do tons of dados. I gotta go to Australia to get a new one! Which leads me to think that the dado plane is not easy to use. Sure Warren, you may have expertise wth dado planes. But maybe it is because of your talent and extensive experience with hand tools. I have been interested in dado planes for years, and the vaunted Stanley 46 just did not perform well ( OK, well, the seller did not tell me about the cracked fence ). Dados are challenging. Look at Gordon demonstrating his planes here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxOgPAEtUuk)

[Warren Mickley]

Mark, it appears that I was wrong about the nickers on the Gordon plane, that it is one iron with two knives.

I received an email from Steve Voigt today on another matter. He wrote it this morning but I only read it this evening. He mentioned that he will be at the Hearne Lumber open house (Oct 4,5) and will be showing his dado plane among others. It does not seem to be on his website, but it might be similar to one in the Seaton chest. He lives near Allentown.

[Mark Rainey]

Mark, it appears that I was wrong about the nickers on the Gordon plane, that it is one iron with two knives.

I received an email from Steve Voigt today on another matter. He wrote it this morning but I only read it this evening. He mentioned that he will be at the Hearne Lumber open house (Oct 4,5) and will be showing his dado plane among others. It does not seem to be on his website, but it might be similar to one in the Seaton chest. He lives near Allentown.
That would be good if Steve was making a dado plane. That open house at Hearne looks interesting - I have not been to Hearne in many years. Have you been to the open house? If yes, was it worthwhile? I talked to Terry Gordon about the whisker difference between nicker & blade and he said, if I wanted, I could grind a couple thousands off the edge of the blade.

[Warren Mickley]

I go to the Hearne open house every year. It started as a Lie Nielsen event and thankfully Hearne kept it up when LN dropped out after a few years. LN is coming this year for the first time since 2015 or so. I usually go on Friday, when it is a little less crowded and the vendors are fresher. Blackburn Tools, SAPFM and Red Rose are regulars; others have included Bickford, Caleb James, Voigt, Leamy, maybe Raney, Chuck Bender, more.

About the dado set up. The nicker is straight on the outside, tapered on the inside surface. So the nicker crushes the wood a little bit on the inside and so making the width that has to be peeled off a little less. However even if the cutter does not extend all the way to the nicker cavity, the grain favors a cut to extend all the way.

One difficulty with a skewed blade is getting it sharpened at just the right angle. In practice we can lean the blade a very little bit to compensate for our sharpening. In this case an extra 1/64 of an inch clearance is very helpful.

The idea that one is going to set everything up perfectly works in the mind, not in the flesh.

[steven c newman]

Amazing amount of info...without a shred being said in regards to the plane the OP is using....and, I doubt if I am the only one actually USING the Stanley 45.

Next? Someone will be on this thread, telling the OP to buy a brand (insert brand name here)new plane...as the "only" way to cure his "problem" with the original plane.

Asks for advice on one type of plane....and gets nothing but sale pitches?

Simplest fix? make sure the cutter is not set too deep, so the spurs have a chance to do the job they were designed to do. Simple as that.

Skilled with the plane? Nah, just had to learn HOW to use it, is all. Takes a bit of practice, and reading the manual for it....

[Tony Zaffuto]

Amazing amount of info...without a shred being said in regards to the plane the OP is using....and, I doubt if I am the only one actually USING the Stanley 45.

Next? Someone will be on this thread, telling the OP to buy a brand (insert brand name here)new plane...as the "only" way to cure his "problem" with the original plane.

Asks for advice on one type of plane....and gets nothing but sale pitches?

Simplest fix? make sure the cutter is not set too deep, so the spurs have a chance to do the job they were designed to do. Simple as that.

Skilled with the plane? Nah, just had to learn HOW to use it, is all. Takes a bit of practice, and reading the manual for it....

Be careful Bandit! I got two 45's and the Craftsman (made by Sargent) equivalent. I let them set up for specific jobs. Am I skilled with them? I'm a ham-fisted amateur furniture builder, that was a carpenter (left the trade in 1989), served a four year apprenticeship in the mid-70s.

[Warren Mickley]

Amazing amount of info...without a shred being said in regards to the plane the OP is using....and, I doubt if I am the only one actually USING the Stanley 45.

Next? Someone will be on this thread, telling the OP to buy a brand (insert brand name here)new plane...as the "only" way to cure his "problem" with the original plane.

Asks for advice on one type of plane....and gets nothing but sale pitches?

Simplest fix? make sure the cutter is not set too deep, so the spurs have a chance to do the job they were designed to do. Simple as that.

Skilled with the plane? Nah, just had to learn HOW to use it, is all. Takes a bit of practice, and reading the manual for it....

It sounds like you have bigger problems than the OP. I have used the 45 plane for almost 40 years. I responded to the original query within minutes of his posting. That was four days ago. Did you even read it?

[steven c newman]

So...did this photo "show & tell" help out?

414835
414836
Or, time to pack it up..
414837
And close the lid.

[Charles Guest]

Amazing amount of info...without a shred being said in regards to the plane the OP is using....and, I doubt if I am the only one actually USING the Stanley 45.

Next? Someone will be on this thread, telling the OP to buy a brand (insert brand name here)new plane...as the "only" way to cure his "problem" with the original plane.

Asks for advice on one type of plane....and gets nothing but sale pitches?

Simplest fix? make sure the cutter is not set too deep, so the spurs have a chance to do the job they were designed to do. Simple as that.

Skilled with the plane? Nah, just had to learn HOW to use it, is all. Takes a bit of practice, and reading the manual for it....

We almost always knife lines that will show -- tenon shoulders, dovetail baselines, etc. When working a dado with a plane it pays to knife the shoulders and perhaps even chisel a little groove in the waste, this way the plane doesn't have to be set to take a gossamer shaving in order to not 'get ahead' of the little cloverleaf nickers - a horrible design by the way. The time lost in knifing and chiseling is easily made up by taking a bit of a greedier shaving. BTW, the exit edge shouldn't be an issue as the project component is not be ripped to width until after all the dadoes have been worked.

[Mark Rainey]

We almost always knife lines that will show -- tenon shoulders, dovetail baselines, etc. When working a dado with a plane it pays to knife the shoulders and perhaps even chisel a little groove in the waste, this way the plane doesn't have to be set to take a gossamer shaving in order to not 'get ahead' of the little cloverleaf nickers - a horrible design by the way. The time lost in knifing and chiseling is easily made up by taking a bit of a greedier shaving. BTW, the exit edge shouldn't be an issue as the project component is not be ripped to width until after all the dadoes have been worked.
Good tip Charles on not ripping to width until dados are done. Similar to what Warren recommends not ripping to width until ends are square - you don't worry about tear out on the far edge. And I think your comments about the importance of a good nicker is important. In my opinion a good dado plane should cut the shoulder without tearout, not needing knifing or sawing. The nickers on my HNT Gordon blades are tool steel, and they cut without tearout. In fact, I was cutting a long tenon for a breadboard end, and I used the 3/4 dado plane to cut the tenon. This was a cross grain cut and the nickers worked beautifully. I think this is frequently difficult to pull off and in general is safer to knife the crosscut. I suppose the same situation apply to skew rabbet planes with nickers. Do many experienced woodworkers just avoid the skew rabbet with nicker?

[steven c newman]

Rebates across the grain...I use the Stanley/Wards No. 78......

[Mark Rainey]

Rebates across the grain...I use the Stanley/Wards No. 78......
Do you use the nicker, do you trust it will cross cut grain without tear out? Or do you knife the line?

[steven c newman]

I use the nicker, if it is set in the right way ( have seen a few with it backwards), and well sharpened...works just fine, for me.

[Charles Guest]

Good tip Charles on not ripping to width until dados are done. Similar to what Warren recommends not ripping to width until ends are square - you don't worry about tear out on the far edge. And I think your comments about the importance of a good nicker is important. In my opinion a good dado plane should cut the shoulder without tearout, not needing knifing or sawing. The nickers on my HNT Gordon blades are tool steel, and they cut without tearout. In fact, I was cutting a long tenon for a breadboard end, and I used the 3/4 dado plane to cut the tenon. This was a cross grain cut and the nickers worked beautifully. I think this is frequently difficult to pull off and in general is safer to knife the crosscut. I suppose the same situation apply to skew rabbet planes with nickers. Do many experienced woodworkers just avoid the skew rabbet with nicker?

Mark, I've never used the Gordon plane you mentioned but a Record 050 does have knives rather than the cloverleaf nickers. These can be trusted on mildly grained wood, though given that the housings have to be marked anyway, I'd still use a knife. The hardly rebuttable presumption is that arrises that will show are incised with a knife, especially those that run across grain, often even when power tools are used. Long-grained arrises of course come up off the plane and don't have to be incised but simply marked with a fine scratch to show the limits of planing.

All it takes is one swirly little patch of grain to lift and splinter to potentially ruin an entire carcase side, or at best necessitate a costly in time repair job that could have been avoided if the patch had been knifed through.

Chaulk it up to things going well until they don't-- nothing haughtier than somebody with a few relatively successful projects under their belt (doesn't apply to you!). Comeuppance is surely right around the corner. That, or let me be the fly on the wall in the shop of a guy running housings with hand tools, with only pencil marks, on rare highly figured mahogany that cost $200+ per carcase side. I bet the knife comes out then! If not...

Pencil or knife across grain? Easy choice for me.

[Mark Rainey]

Mark, I've never used the Gordon plane you mentioned but a Record 050 does have knives rather than the cloverleaf nickers. These can be trusted on mildly grained wood, though given that the housings have to be marked anyway, I'd still use a knife. The hardly rebuttable presumption is that arrises that will show are incised with a knife, especially those that run across grain, often even when power tools are used. Long-grained arrises of course come up off the plane and don't have to be incised but simply marked with a fine scratch to show the limits of planing.

All it takes is one swirly little patch of grain to lift and splinter to potentially ruin an entire carcase side, or at best necessitate a costly in time repair job that could have been avoided if the patch had been knifed through.

Chaulk it up to things going well until they don't-- nothing haughtier than somebody with a few relatively successful projects under their belt (doesn't apply to you!). Comeuppance is surely right around the corner. That, or let me be the fly on the wall in the shop of a guy running housings with hand tools, with only pencil marks, on rare highly figured mahogany that cost $200+ per carcase side. I bet the knife comes out then! If not...

Pencil or knife across grain? Easy choice for me.

Good wisdom Charles, thank you

[steven c newman]

Wonder IF Charles also calls it a "Knife wall"?
414881414883
Rebates in curly maple. These were raised panels for a Chest of Drawers' side panels, used in a Frame & Panel....raised the other side with a "Sellers" No. 4...
414875
Rebate to house a plywood back panel....wood is Ash....Frame & Panel sides for the new Computer desk I just finished up...
414884
Outside face, Curly Maple Raised panel....being fitted to a rail..
414885
414886
waiting on glue and clamps...still had 4 more panels to do...
414887
Other side, once things were done...

Started building Furniture when I was a Junior in High School....69-70 school year....was selling furniture through out the 70s and 80s...got to be too much of a job...now I merely build for me, and my friends and family....might have picked up a few 'talents" along the way....

[Charles Guest]

Steven, I haven't gotten round to subscribing so I can't see your photos, or for some other reason cannot. If they are of rebates of course those are long grain joints and don't present the problems of cross grain housings we've been discussing.

I finished my training at Barnsley in 1964 and worked for thirty two years, exclusively in the trade, before a very restful and enjoyable retirement.

Cheers,

Charles

[steven c newman]

Have learned HOW to use a Stanley 45....making Gooves, rebates, dados, Tongue & Groove using the match cutters, and even using the Sash cutter. Have even made a couple other shapes of cutters, as needed. Haven't quite figured out the slitter, yet..not much use of it.

Was taught woodworking, metal working, drafting, and sand-casting...in High School Ind. Arts classes back in the 60s....might have picked up a few things, along the way. Not only did we have to draw up a picture/plan of each type of wood joint, we also got out the hand tools, and made each joint...and received a grade on each. Have worked in machine shops, a cast iron foundry, and as a Carpenter. Even made and sold furniture from my 2-1/2 car garage, until it became too much. Now I mainly make items for friends and family, sometimes, even for myself. And, if you used a rubber air hose back then....I worked at a place that made those hoses ( and have COPD to show for it) as someone had to make the black, red, green, and even white polymer compound to extrude the layers that made up a hose.

[Steve Voigt]

I finished my training at Barnsley in 1964 and worked for thirty two years, exclusively in the trade, before a very restful and enjoyable retirement.

Cheers,

Charles

That's an impressive resume…few people who hang out on forums have had that kind of rigorous training. I'd like to see some of your work. But I haven't renewed my membership either and don't plan to, so I wouldn't be able to see it here anyway. Do you post on Instagram by any chance?

[Steve Voigt]

Have learned HOW to use a Stanley 45....making Gooves, rebates, dados, Tongue & Groove using the match cutters, and even using the Sash cutter. Have even made a couple other shapes of cutters, as needed. Haven't quite figured out the slitter, yet..not much use of it.

Was taught woodworking, metal working, drafting, and sand-casting...in High School Ind. Arts classes back in the 60s....might have picked up a few things, along the way. Not only did we have to draw up a picture/plan of each type of wood joint, we also got out the hand tools, and made each joint...and received a grade on each. Have worked in machine shops, a cast iron foundry, and as a Carpenter. Even made and sold furniture from my 2-1/2 car garage, until it became too much. Now I mainly make items for friends and family, sometimes, even for myself. And, if you used a rubber air hose back then....I worked at a place that made those hoses ( and have COPD to show for it) as someone had to make the black, red, green, and even white polymer compound to extrude the layers that made up a hose.

Congratulations?

[steven c newman]

Whatever...

[Stewie Simpson]

Mark, it appears that I was wrong about the nickers on the Gordon plane, that it is one iron with two knives.

I received an email from Steve Voigt today on another matter. He wrote it this morning but I only read it this evening. He mentioned that he will be at the Hearne Lumber open house (Oct 4,5) and will be showing his dado plane among others. It does not seem to be on his website, but it might be similar to one in the Seaton chest. He lives near Allentown.

Warren; Steve has updated his website http://www.voigtplanes.com/dado.html