Single Phase Conversion for Edgebander...

[Bill Kugler]

Hi, I am relatively new to the forum, and i hope I am posting this in the correct place.

I have stumbled upon a fairly good deal on a Virutex eb140 PLC edgebander: (www.virutex.com/edgebandergluepotautomaticproductionmodel.aspx)

I have seen it run, and am sufficiently impressed with the results. It looks like something that would fit nicely into my expanded shop plans.

Unfortunately, it is a 3 phase 220v, and my shop is only equipped with single phase 220v. I am relatively new to this game, and have never been a wizard with electrical wiring.

Is a rotary phase converter the only option to make this work in my shop? Or is there another option I am missing? I am guessing a VFD or static converter would not work (because of the loss of control and loss of power respectively).

I currently have no other use for a RPC, and if I add the purchase of one to the cost of this edgebander, it is no longer a deal worth pursuing, or at least warrants a pause for thought.

Please forgive me if I have posted this in the wrong section. i am new here, and the deal is time sensitive. i would greatly appreciate any help anyone could offer.

Thanks,

Will

[Bruce Wrenn]

You could build your own RPC. Web site "Practical Machinest" has dozens of shop made RPC's. Built one for my neighbor about 15 years ago.

[Bill Kugler]

Darn, that's what I thought. I am not nearly handy enough with electrical for a solution like that, but it looks like it's the only way. I might have to just let this one go...

[Matt Day]

I’ve seen a number of used RPC’s (Phase-o-matic and such) come up for sale used at auction. So if you don’t need to put the edgebander in use immediately and can wait to find a used one, that might be an option.

Or, maybe recruit someone more electrically skilled to make you one. Might be someone on here or PM who’d make one for a small profit.

[Mike King]

A vid can convert single phase electric into three phase electric. However, you have to defeat the on/off switch and control it from the vid. Jack Forsberg sells and helps you to configure vid's for this purpose, and they are relatively affordable,

Mike

[Richard Coers]

Start out by making sure everything in the edgebander is 3 phase. The heater may not be. Not 100% certain, but I don't think you can run a resistance heater on 3 phase.

[David Buchhauser]

Hi Bill,
I have been running a 4 HP 3 phase belt sander/grinder from 220V single phase for over 2 years with no problems using this VFD shown below.
Here is a previous SMC thread discussing VFD use for other woodworking equipment.
David

https://www.ebay.com/itm/UPDATED-220V-4KW-5HP-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-NEW/111490143307?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


(https://www.ebay.com/itm/UPDATED-220V-4KW-5HP-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-NEW/111490143307?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?209031-Educate-me-on-3-phase-power-converters
(https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?209031-Educate-me-on-3-phase-power-converters)
414231


(https://www.ebay.com/itm/UPDATED-220V-4KW-5HP-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-NEW/111490143307?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)

[Bill Dufour]

How many horsepower? Up to 3hp a vfd is the way to go. Full power to the motor and variable speed. You do not need reverse or dynamic braking for a belt sander.
Above 3hp a rotary starts to seem like a good idea.
Bill D.

[David Buchhauser]

I do not believe that the use of a VFD is restricted to 3 HP and under. This one is rated for 10 HP. You can read the full description at the link below.
David

"This VFD can be used for constant torque loads ( such as hard starting: Air compressors, HVAC units) and variable torque loads (such as pumps, fans, etc). It can be used as a motor speed control and a phase converter. The input for this VFD is 1 phase . You can control the different speed as you like when yo use this VFD. Many customer bought this VFD from us to use for: Lathes, Mills, Car Hoists, Pumps & Conveyors, etc and then performance excellently."

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-5KW-10HP-220V-Variable-Frequency-Drive-Inverter-CNC-VFD-VSD-Single-To-3-Phase/283047413319?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SI M%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D57475%26meid%3D3616551e16ff452e 8bc3f3e0289c9688%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D1 2%26mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D111490143307%26itm%3D2830474 13319%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

414238

[Bill Kugler]

So a VFD would work for this?

In my limited understanding of electrical, I thought VFDs would only work for motors, wired directly with the switch removed. The one bit of information I have been able to find was on another online forum, where a fellow who seems to be a lot more knowledgeable than I wrote: "
machines that have pneumatic components or multiple motors won’t work with a VFD at all, so that means no edgebanders or wide belt sanders". Sounded good to me, so I believed it.

With the cost of a VFD added, this is still a good deal. if I have to add the cost of a RPC on the other hand...

By the way, thanks everyone for the quick replies!

[David Buchhauser]

Hi Bill,
The key question is: what is the HP rating of your motor, and what other parts of the machine (if any) need to run on single phase 120Vac?
But I would suspect that if they were running on 3 phase originally, they won't know the difference (120V accessories) between the actual 3 phase and the manufactured 3 phase from the VFD.
David

[David Buchhauser]

. You do not need reverse or dynamic braking for a belt sander.

Bill D.

OK Bill, you are correct. But what does that have to do with the problem at hand? We need more information about this particular machine in order to make an informed decision and/or recommendation.
David

[Matt Day]

Guys, this isn’t a normal woodworking machine like a sander or saw. It’s got a lot of additional electronics that control the edgebander, speed, temperature, etc. I don’t think these could operate properly with a VFD, hence the reason for an RPC.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, only the motors will be three phase.

The heaters, solenoid valves, Infra-Red lamp etc will all be single phase.

It's possible to do the conversion with a VFD however it may be a bit complicated and the machine will need recertification to maintain it's electrical approval.

Regards, Rod.

[Bill Dufour]

OK Bill, you are correct. But what does that have to do with the problem at hand? We need more information about this particular machine in order to make an informed decision and/or recommendation.
David

I meant that a VFD for every machine will cost more in the end then one big rotary converter. But a vfd can offer features that a RPC can never offer. Such as soft start, dynamic braking, variable speed, instant reverse and they can be code approved for service disconnect saving the cost of big switches for each machine.
He does not sound comfortable around high voltage where he will have to separate the single phase stuff and supply it with line power and only use the VFd for motor power.
They do make big VFD's but above 3-5 Horsepower the cost skyrockets from 150 to the sky is the limit. The Tesla car has about a 700 HP VFD. but it costs thousands. Farmers use thousands of horsepower ones to fine tune pump outputs to match well flow and irrigation needs.
Bill D.

[Bradley Gray]

An RPC doesn't have to be complicated. The least complicated ones use a small single phase motor to spin up the idler. I have built a few this way. I mounted the starter motor on a hinged board with a handle to tighten-release the v-belt. 220v single phase to 2 leads, 3rd leg of 3 phase comes out the 3rd motor lead.

I think some companies that sell static converters also sell a control box for a rotary converter.

Used 3 phase motors can be had for very little $.

Likely once you have the converter you will find other used machines to add (I'm up to 18).

[Richard Coers]

I'd suggest some extreme caution here Bill. You are getting a ton of advice from people who have no idea what this machine is and the electrical components in the machine. If I found the correct machine, there is a control screen, limit switches, heaters, motors and more. A DIY rotary phase convertor does not put out clean power. There can be a pretty big imbalance and still run a motor. Not so much with transformers and control components. Same goes for a VFD. Don't buy the machine without have a machine electrical tech study the schematic and give you a knowledgeable answer. It's going to take a clean 3phase input.

[Charles Lent]

I agree with Richard.

There is more involved than just creating 3 phase to run a motor. Get a competent electrical tech or engineer to study the electrical drawings for this edgebander before you attempt to try to run it on single phase. If only the motor is three phase it would be quite easy to add a VFD to control it, but 3 phase heating equipment won't convert easily to single phase, nor will it run well from a home built RPC. Then you have the control circuits to deal with, but this will be the comparatively easy part.

Charley

[Erik Loza]

No dog in this fight but I just priced out a new Kay Industries phase converter for a customer in a similar situation. It was around $1K excluding taxes and shipping. To my mind, if this is your business, there's value in just being able to write a single check, have a new and totally functional unit delivered, then get to making cabinets rather than taking on a new fabrication project that may or may not work out. Just my 2-cents and good luck to the OP.

Erik

[Bill Kugler]

Would a commercially produced RPC generate clean enough 3 phase input?

Basically, there are two options available to me at the moment locally. There is a natively single phase Virutex eb135, and the eb140 plc. The eb140 plc is a much better deal, and a more feature-rich machine. But I am trying to figure out if it would still be a better deal after converting from 3-phase to 1-phase.
If a 3 hp RPC is required, and would work dependably, (according to the Virutex website, the eb140 is a 2.77 hp machine), then the eb140 still makes more sense.

If not, I may have to let it go.

[David Kumm]

Talk to the RPC people about the specific machine and the amperage. RPCs can be made to produce balanced volts at a specific amperage. They cost a little more but it is doable. A Phase Perfect will provide balanced voltage at all loads but I'm assuming you don't want to spend 4K for just one application. Three phase opens up a whole new world in machinery though. Dave

[Dan Friedrichs]

I'd suggest some extreme caution here Bill. You are getting a ton of advice from people who have no idea what this machine is and the electrical components in the machine. If I found the correct machine, there is a control screen, limit switches, heaters, motors and more. A DIY rotary phase convertor does not put out clean power. There can be a pretty big imbalance and still run a motor. Not so much with transformers and control components. Same goes for a VFD. Don't buy the machine without have a machine electrical tech study the schematic and give you a knowledgeable answer. It's going to take a clean 3phase input.

+1. Wise advice.

Rod Sheridan is right that the only component in the machine that runs on 3-phase is the motor - the other parts are single phase. But the complexity of how all those various parts hook to each other and interact could be a challenge.

You have several options:
1) Buy an RPC. You'd be "making" your own 3-phase power, and you'd power the machine with that. This could probably be done for hundreds of dollars. As Richard said, there's some risk a finicky control circuit or something gets upset by a non-ideal source of power.
2) Buy a Phase Perfect, which is a piece of electronics which creates 3-phase power using power electronics (rather than the machines used in an RPC). This is expensive.
3) Buy a VFD. You'd likely have to hook the motor directly to the VFD and control it using this. How does that affect other controls in the machine? Seems like a major surgery to the machine's electronics.

And one option no one has suggested, yet:
4) Swap the 3-phase motor with a single-phase one.

[Darcy Warner]

If a guy was smart enough, that would be easy enough to separate the single/3phase and actually wire control output to the vfd. I am certain that would be easy enough to program.

[David Buchhauser]

They do make big VFD's but above 3-5 Horsepower the cost skyrockets from 150 to the sky is the limit.
Bill D.


10 HP VFD - $172.00 with free shipping. As I previously stated, I have been using the 5 HP version for several years with no complaints.
If the piece of equipment in question has input terminals for the three 3 phase power, and all the other single phase accessories are wired internally (as I would expect - since all of my large cnc machining centers separate the 3 phase and single phase components internally) - then the only wiring to be done is to connect the three output wires of the VFD (plus ground wire) to the three input terminals (plus ground terminal) of the equipment. Since this application is for phase conversion only and not speed control, the VFD programming for ramp up, ramp down, torque control, decelerating stop, coasting stop, DC braking, etc. would not necessarily apply. This should be a pretty straight forward installation. It would also be nice to see the installation manual, wiring diagrams, and other specs for the piece of equipment in question. This could help make a more informed decision.


David Buchhauser
(Electrical Engineer)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-5KW-10HP-220V-Variable-Frequency-Drive-Inverter-CNC-VFD-VSD-Single-To-3-Phase/283047413319?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SI M%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D57475%26meid%3D3616551e16ff452e 8bc3f3e0289c9688%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D1 2%26mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D111490143307%26itm%3D2830474 13319%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

[Mike King]

Talk with Jack Forsberg. He can tell you whether the vfd will work, how much it would cost, and how to rig it up. He’s supplied a lot of vfd’s to people on this site.

mike

[Dan Friedrichs]

10 HP VFD - $172.00 with free shipping. As I previously stated, I have been using the 5 HP version for several years with no complaints.
If the piece of equipment in question has input terminals for the three 3 phase power, and all the other single phase accessories are wired internally (as I would expect - since all of my large cnc machining centers separate the 3 phase and single phase components internally) - then the only wiring to be done is to connect the three output wires of the VFD (plus ground wire) to the three input terminals (plus ground terminal) of the equipment. Since this application is for phase conversion only and not speed control, the VFD programming for ramp up, ramp down, torque control, decelerating stop, coasting stop, DC braking, etc. would not necessarily apply. This should be a pretty straight forward installation. It would also be nice to see the installation manual, wiring diagrams, and other specs for the piece of equipment in question. This could help make a more informed decision.


David Buchhauser
(Electrical Engineer)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-5KW-10HP-220V-Variable-Frequency-Drive-Inverter-CNC-VFD-VSD-Single-To-3-Phase/283047413319?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SI M%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D57475%26meid%3D3616551e16ff452e 8bc3f3e0289c9688%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D1 2%26mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D111490143307%26itm%3D2830474 13319%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

David, what if the machine has limit switches which control the motor?

[David L Morse]

David, what if the machine has limit switches which control the motor?

Actually, the motors (there are three) could each have their own VFD internally. I suspect that control is fairly complex on this machine and could involve more than simple on/off control of the motors.

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=414325&d=1565703687

[David Buchhauser]

David, what if the machine has limit switches which control the motor?

Hi Dan,
Basically the limit switches won't know the difference whether the power source for the machine is 3 phase from the power company, 3 phase from a rotary phase converter, or 3 phase from a VFD. Many of these machines utilize internal DC power supplies (derived from AC) to supply DC voltages to various internal components within the machine.
David

[David Buchhauser]

Would a commercially produced RPC generate clean enough 3 phase input?

Basically, there are two options available to me at the moment locally. There is a natively single phase Virutex eb135, and the eb140 plc. The eb140 plc is a much better deal, and a more feature-rich machine. But I am trying to figure out if it would still be a better deal after converting from 3-phase to 1-phase.
If a 3 hp RPC is required, and would work dependably, (according to the Virutex website, the eb140 is a 2.77 hp machine), then the eb140 still makes more sense.

If not, I may have to let it go.

Hi Bill,
If funds allow, I would recommend going with the RPC. I would recommend American Rotary. I purchased one of their larger cnc rotary phase converters (30 hp) over 15 years ago to run the 3 phase equipment in my shop. This includes 15 hp spindle motor on my larger machining center, 7 1/2 hp spindle motor on the smaller machine, 7 1/2 hp spindle motor on cnc lathe, and several other 5 hp motors on mill and conventional lathe. I sometimes have 3 or 4 machines running at the same time. This American Rotary phase converter is still running fine, have never had a problem with it - very reliable.

414356414357414358414359

Here is the American Rotary 5 HP phase converter (below). Made in USA. $439 with free shipping.

David

https://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Rotary-Phase-Converter-AR5-5-HP-1-to-3-Three-PH-Made-is-USA/281095520874?hash=item417299426a:g:IkUAAOxybi9Rcwr J

414360

[Bill Kugler]

Thank you very much everyone for the helpful advice and replies.


Unfortunately, the edgebander sold (it was a good deal, I figured it would go quick). But I am noticing there's a definite lack of single phase options for quality edgebanders, so I'm guessing I may still need this advice in the coming weeks/months.

[Erik Loza]

...I am noticing there's a definite lack of single phase options for quality edgebanders...

Just sayin': Pretty much all our smaller edgebanders are available in single-phase.

Erik

[Bill Kugler]

Yep, I am aware...


Ahh, to have Felder money... life would be a dream... ;-)


(Seriously though, although I appreciate the sentiment, my banding requirements are *just* enough to require a machine of some sort. The one I was looking at was for sale for $4800 cdn...)

[Erik Loza]

Yep, I am aware... Ahh, to have Felder money... life would be a dream... ;-).(Seriously though, although I appreciate the sentiment, my banding requirements are *just* enough to require a machine of some sort. The one I was looking at was for sale for $4800 cdn...)

Here's my 2-cents, zero sales shtick. I would tell you the exact same thing if I were still with Minimax: If you truly need a bander but can't afford a stand-alone unit, go for a handheld model. I would not buy any stand-alone bander that did not use sawblade for front and end trimming. The guillotine-only ones are cheap but that guillotine doesn't give a clean edge for very long. Soon enough, you are back to trimming by hand and then, why did you pay all that money to begin with? Also, I would avoid used/auction banders, no matter how good the deal. Rare that they do not come with "issues", which could cost as much as a new machine to repair. Hope this helps,

Erik