Denatured Alcohol

[David Dalzell]

Has anyone ever used this product for preparing shellac? If so what are your conclusions for shellac preparation?
"Duda Energy eth950 Denatured Ethanol"
The safety data sheet states :ConcentrationEthanol 64-17-4 >94%
Natural Gasoline 68425-31-0 1-5%
Benzene 71-43-2 0-0.25

The supplier websites states that among other uses it is for "As a solvent in shellac and shellac-based products."

[Frank Pratt]

I would be concerned about the gasoline & benzine content. Benzine is quiet bad for you & gasoline might make it stay stinky for a long time.

[Brian Hale]

Kleen Strip Denatured Alcohol SDS lists these ingredients
CAS # Hazardous Components (Chemical Name)3.
COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Concentration RTECS # 64-17-5 Ethyl alcohol {Ethanol} 30.0 -50.0 % KQ6300000 67-56-1
Methanol {Methyl alcohol; Carbinol; Woodalcohol}40.0 -60.0 % PC1400000

[Brett Luna]

Kleen Strip Denatured Alcohol SDS lists these ingredients

Methanol poses significant neurological and other health hazards. I opt for the Klean Strip Green version. It still has some but far less.

413916

413915

[David Dalzell]

Thanks all. I have decided to go with Klean Strip Green. The idea of gasoline in the mix doesn't sound too good. Maybe not important, but why use it if other proven products are available. I have been using Sunnyside denatured alcohol but lately they have reduced the ethanol % and increased the methanol %.

Klean Strip Green Safety Data Sheet provides:

Ethanol 80.0 -100.0 %
Methanol 3.0 -7.0 %
Acetic acid 1.0 -5.0 %
Methyl isobutyl ketone 0.1 -1.0 % and
Heptane 0.1 -1.0 %

Higher ethanol is better. So say the finishing books.

By the way - sorry about the enormous text in my original post. Darn all these new fangled contraptions like computers!

[Tom Beltran]

I've had problems with shellac not fully drying with denatured alcohol. Now, I use 190 proof everclear with my shellac, and it always dries instantly (I do dehumidify my workspace). Everclear is available over the internet, by the case. No worries about additives.

[David Dalzell]

I don't have a problem with humidity where I live. Sierra Nevada mountains of California. For example right now (2:30 PM) the humidity is 35%. Typical. In the winter you generally need to put on some sort of lip balm before going to bed. Otherwise you will wake up in the morning with cracked lips from the low humidity. The greatest problem for me, as a woodworker, is trying to calculate how much to allow for wood expansion when making a piece that will live in a more humid environment. I have shipped to Hong Kong, Belgium, East Coast USA. So far so good. There are USA and foreign country regional temperature/humidity charts for variations by month available.

[Stew Denton]

David, I am a bit confused, because I found an SDS on line for "Duda Energy eth950 Denatured Alcohol," and it listed the ingredients as: 90.5% ethanol, 4.5% isopropyl alcohol, and 5% np acetate. I am assuming np stands for "normal propyl."

If the SDS I found is the correct one, then the stuff should not be real bad. I don't know about the n-propyl acetate though, and did not take the time to look it up. It is too late though, and I am giving it up for the day.

Stew

[Mel Fulks]

Since the product by law must be poisonous (denatured) it's not surprising that there are different formulas. It is not
a requirement that the stuff dissolves shellac flakes. Some brands just will not disolve flakes. I like Behkol because it
works well for dissolving and much cheaper than the stuff made for drinking.

[William Fretwell]

The benzene is very troublesome. The benzene plant 25 km south of me frequently has leaks in the breeze. The town next to it (Corunna) has the highest rate of cancer in all of Canada.

[John Stankus]

Duda Energy is a one man shop providing supplies for the homebrew biodiesel community. The MSDS on their site has a different denaturants (http://www.dudadiesel.com/msds/ethanol.pdf) (I think someone else found this as well). My guess since they are a one man shop and their application is fuel, that their supply may vary.

As a chemist my guess is two properties are of interest here. Solubility of the shellac and vapor pressure of the solvent components.
Vapor Pressure of the components at room temperature (or there abouts)
Ethanol is about 45 Torr
Isopropanol about 40 Torr
Acetic Acid Propyl ester about 25 torr
This tells me (unless they form an azeotrope (that data book is at the office)) they should evaporate at reasonably comparable rates.

Looking at the Behkol MSDS the only major component difference is isobutanol (vap press ~9 Torr).


Maybe this will be the push for me to finally build that isoteniscope and measure the vapor pressure of the mixture (I teach physical chemistry each Fall)

John

[David Dalzell]

I noticed that the Duda Energy listed the chemical composition as Stew Denton stated. This is the company website. However I looked at the mandatory Safety Data Sheet at this web site "https://www.sinclairoil.com/sites/default/files/MSDS.Fuels_.Denatured%20Ethanol.pdf" and it does show "Natural Gasoline content as in my original post. So which is true? I don't know. I would rather not risk my health, the environment, or my piece of furniture. So I am picking up a couple of quarts of Klean Strip Green at a nearby ACE Hardware store today.

[Brian Holcombe]

Anymore I buy 95% pure, I don’t want anything in it other than ethanol and water from the atmosphere (as little as practical in a workshop). It’s easy to find on Amazon.

[Stan Calow]

I believe benzene is one of the components of gasoline anyway. I think it is singled out on the MSDS because it is a known human carcinogen, not as a separately added ingredient. I could be wrong, but its a fair guess.

@brian, what product do you find on Amazon that is 99% pure ethanol? Everyone I see is denatured at max 95%. Some are blends with isopropyl and/or methanol, and could say they were 99% alcohol, but not ethanol. I would think 99% ethanol would be drinkable and taxed as such.

[steven c newman]

Corn squeezins?

Old farmers used to have a bucket under their corn cribs....used fill up with some high powered stuff....

[Brian Holcombe]

I’m mistaken it is 95%, but I’ve been able to find stuff that is not denatured with methanol.

[Mike Henderson]

Anymore I buy 99% pure, I don’t want anything in it other than ethanol and water from the atmosphere (as little as practical in a workshop). It’s easy to find on Amazon.

Would you provide a link to that 99% ethanol on Amazon, please? I found isopropyl alcohol at high percentages but not ethanol. Pure ethanol would be fairly expensive, I expect.

Mike

[Oops, I see you replied to this question earlier. In doing some research, I found that you cannot produce ethanol by distillation at greater than 97.2% so I guess there's no 99% ethanol out there unless it was produced in some way other than distillation. For fairly pure ethanol I suppose that 190 proof (95%) EverClear would be the best and would only have water as the other 5%. But EverClear is sold as a recreational drug so it's probably expensive.]

[Prashun Patel]

We use SDA40 at work; it's commonly used in perfume/cologne.
It's sold as 99+% pure, but it quickly equlibrates to about 95%, as it absorbs water from the air.

[Mike Henderson]

We use SDA40 at work; it's commonly used in perfume/cologne.
It's sold as 99+% pure, but it quickly equilibrates to about 95%, as it absorbs water from the air.

Isn't SDA-40 denatured? If so, it would not be 99% ethanol, although it might be 99% alcohol, part ethanol and part some other alcohol.

Mike

[Prashun Patel]

yes. i did not mean it was NOT denatured. Just that it was sold as 99+% ethanol (and that the denaturant is less than 1%). But in a short time, water is absorbed into the solution, so you end up with 95% ethanol + 4% water + denaturant.

I just doubt there is any available ethanol out there that is more than 95% actual ethanol - including whatever 200 proof people think is pure grain.

[Gary Ragatz]

Isn't SDA-40 denatured? If so, it would not be 99% ethanol, although it might be 99% alcohol, part ethanol and part some other alcohol.


SDA is "Specially" Denatured Alcohol, and is basically pure ethanol, with a bit of chemical additive to make it undrinkable.

[Stew Denton]

Hi All,

Years ago when I was either an undergraduate, or in graduate school in chemistry, one of my professors told me that there was a large list of materials that could be used to denature ethanol, he told me the exact number but of course I don't remember what it was. However, at that time there were basically 3 categories of denaturants, if I remember correctly. They were to either: make the ethanol either: 1. very unpleasantly odorous, 2. taste horrible, or 3. very off color. I may be wrong on the last one, and I know one category is now to make the ethanol extremely nauseating.

Very pure ethanol CAN be produced by distillation using ternary (three component) mixtures. Benzene used to be the preferred of the ternary mix, but others can be used. The way it is done is to first distill the alcohol at atmospheric pressure to produce 95% ethanol (5% water). The third compound is then added, and the mixture then redistilled. You want to add the precise amount of benzene so that the resulting ternary over head distillation product uses up the exact amount of water in the 95% ethanol. The ternary distillation mixture distills at a lower temperature than does the water/ethanol azeotrope (2 component mixture), so the ternary mixture distills away, taking the benzene and water over head, leaving pure ethanol (called absolute ethanol) as the kettle product. Material of 99.8% ethanol can be easily produced that way. It can also be fractionally distilled at very low pressure without azeotroping with the water, and produce high purity ethanol. Thus high purity stuff can be produced by distillation.

The idea of the denaturant is so that people won't drink cheap solvent grade ethanol, thus to protect the people from injury. Being the jaundiced upper middle aged sceptic that I am, I might have other thoughts on this, but would never openly say that if people could drink the solvent grade ethanol that the government would loose out on the tax revenue that comes with the sale of drinking grade ethanol.

I would not choose a denatured alcohol that had very much methanol, because it is quite toxic. Nor would I choose one that had acetic acid as an ingredient, although it is a weak acid, it is still and acid, and it has a boiling point about 70 degrees F. higher than does the ethanol. Although the normal propyl acetate has a higher boiling point than does ethanol, it boils significantly lower than does acetic acid. I would also not choose one with natural gasoline as the denaturant, because gasoline has a fairly wide distillation range. Thus some of the highest boiling compounds in the gasoline will be slow to dry.

For that reason, my choice would be one something like the "Duda Energy eth950 denatured alcohol," similar products, or the 95% ethanol types that don't have methanol, natural gasoline, benzene, or other bad actors. Everclear has about 5% water in it, which accounts for the stuff being 190 proof, but it does boil (azeotrope) at a lower temperature than does the pure ethanol, so it should not dry much slower than the ethanol itself.

Gasoline does have benzene in it, but I think the limit in the US is 1%, if I recall, but don't remember for certain, I do know that not much is allowed and am thinking that 1% may be the limit. So any denatured ethanol that lists benzene in it has had benzene itself added to the alcohol, it is not in there just because it was in the gasoline used as a denaturant. Natural gasoline is stuff that is distilled straight from the crude oil feed stock at a refinery, it has no additives from the other units in a refinery added, additives that are used to increase octane number, etc. By the way, it is lousy gasoline.

Regards,

Stew

[Don Parker]

If the purpose of buying the alcohol is to make shellac with flakes or buttons of dry shellac, then I will say the following: working with Everclear, as opposed to any sort of denatured alcohol, is a real pleasure. Even the best forms of denatured alcohol (like Behkol) have enough of the poison in them that I notice the difference in the smell. If you have access to Everclear or another 190 proof grain alcohol, I encourage you to compare the products yourself (grain alcohol vs denatured alcohol) and see if the difference is worth the extra cost in your view. It is in mine.

[Tom M King]

The reason they call it "denatured", and the reason it has other stuff in it than alcohol is to make it poisonous on purpose, so it can't be consumed without being able to collect a tax on it.

[Stewie Simpson]

In Australia, New Zealand, and the U.K, its labelled as Methylated Spirits;

ethyl alcohol denatured with methyl alcohol for the purpose of preventing its use as an alcoholic beverage.

http://www.solvents.net.au/index_htm_files/IMS100.pdf

[John Stankus]

List of denaturants from the US government

Title 27 - Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms. CHAPTER I - ALCOHOL AND TOBACCO TAX AND TRADE BUREAU, DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY. SUBCHAPTER A - LIQUORS. PART 21 - FORMULAS FOR DENATURED ALCOHOL AND RUM. Subpart G - Denaturants Authorized for Denatured Spirits.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2003-title27-vol1/xml/CFR-2003-title27-vol1-sec21-151.xml

[James Waldron]

I spend most of my time and have my shop in Florida, one of the states that prohibits 190 proof ethanol (Everclear). When I use shellac, I have found through experience that Everclear is far superior to denatured alcohol. I find the difference sufficiently compelling to justify driving to Georgia to buy 190 proof.

If you can get 190 proof ethanol (there are several brands) down the street, consider yourself fortunate, spring for a bottle and give it a try. Don't be mislead and try the 151 proof; it has far too much water (25%).

For the record, at one time I was the designated provider of grain alcohol for frat parties. As a research assistant in the chem dept. I had keys to the stores and did the purchasing,so i could put an extra barrel on the inventory to assure a lively party.

[Jim Koepke]

For the record, at one time I was the designated provider of grain alcohol for frat parties. As a research assistant in the chem dept. I had keys to the stores and did the purchasing,so i could put an extra barrel on the inventory to assure a lively party.

A friend of mine worked in a lab and also had access to the 'good stuff.' A couple of pints would go a long way.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

A friend of mine worked in a lab and also had access to the 'good stuff.' A couple of pints would go a long way.

jtk
I've heard that some places put Bitrex, "the world's most bitter " stuff in safe grain alcohol to ...make it last longer.
you can buy it on eBay and it's the best deer repellent ,too

[steven c newman]

Hairy Buffalo Parties @ Kent State back in the 70s...featured guests were the Chemistry Majors...who always brought along their latest concoctions....I "lost" a few weekends back then....

"Anyone who claims to remember the 60s.....lied"

[Jim Koepke]

"Anyone who claims to remember the 60s.....lied"

Or they weren't really there.

jtk

[James Waldron]

Hairy Buffalo Parties @ Kent State back in the 70s...featured guests were the Chemistry Majors...who always brought along their latest concoctions....I "lost" a few weekends back then....

"Anyone who claims to remember the 60s.....lied"

There were 60s? What did I miss?