plane sole grinding

[Ralph Boumenot]

Hi all,
I have a #8 plane with a hump right behind the mouth and I am looking for someone that can grind it flat for me. Ken Hatch told me there was someone here on '
the creek that did that but I couldn't find him. I must not be inputting the right search words and after doing that for an hour I said no mas. Anyone here have a better memory for this then me?
thanx
ralph

[J. Greg Jones]

Tom Bussey is the person you are looking for.

https://sawmillcreek.org/member.php?105561-Tom-Bussey

[Ralph Boumenot]

thanx, I had searched for him previously but I spelled his name wrong. I sent him a PM to see if he still does it.

[Rob Luter]

Ralph -

- Have you considered sandpaper on a flat surface as a means to lap the hump out? I have a #7 that I did that with. I took a 150 grit sanding belt, cut it open, and laid it out on my table saw. It made short work of flattening the plane bottom. I followed up with some finer grits and it's smooth as a baby's bottom now.

[Tom Bussey]

Yes, I am starting to grind again on a very very limited basis. Maybe this winter.

But After working with metal as a Tool and Die Maker for 50 plus years I can honestly say that 99% of the current population do not have the hand skills or the resources to lap in a hand plane. In all truthfulness all you are doing is scratching the bottom. Old iron is harder than the newer stuff. You have a 100% better chance of lapping a 1/2 inch chisel flat than a plane. I have had people send me planes after they spent a lot of time on them and I can tell it they are right or left handed and measure the amount of damage they did. Yes I know everyone knows how to do it and that it doesn't take long but a few hundred years ago every one Also knew the world was flat and if you sailed to far you would fall off.

If a person puts some fine sand paper on their electric sander and sands the bottom, they will get a shiny bottom that will slide easier than t dirty bottom. Some past wax like Johnson's floor wax or tree wax it will slide even easier. To be honest the best money spent as far as planning goes is sharpening supplies. Actually all shop tools benefit for being sharp. Wooden hand plane have been used for thousands of years and I doubt they were flat.

The real truth is:
A sharp plane works
If iron sanded well they wouldn't have needed to design and build milling machines and surface grinders.
Save yourself time, aggravation, and money and don't bother trying lapping the bottom.
Shine the bottom, wax it, and get on with your life. 1 or two sheets of 180-220 paper on a random orbit sander should do the trick and don't try to reuse the paper on wood.
There are some good new plane manufacturers out there and quality is long remembered after a cheap price is forgotten.

If man was supposed to fly then God would have given him wings rates right up there with I bought a plane at a garage sale and it must be flattened before I can use it.

Rhetorical question if it was so easy to flatten a plane by hand then why didn't the factory do it in the first place?

[michael langman]

Get a good flat 10-12" mill file if it needs alot removed or a #2 if not so much removed. a good straight edge, and file it flat and straight yourself. By good file, I mean a flat straight file.
It is not hard to do with a little common sense, and probably only needs little metal removed.

[michael langman]

I should say, If you can use a hand plane to flatten a piece of wood, then you can flatten a plane with a file. Very similar.

[Frederick Skelly]

I "inherited" one of Tom Bussey's planes from a buddy of mine. That plane is square and flat. Does it need to be so "perfect"? I dont know, but that plane works really well. It was worth what my buddy paid for it.

I have no affiliation with Mr. Bussey. Just a happy "customer".
Fred

[Pat Barry]

I doubt its worth it to get a plane this large super flat. How much will you really use a monster like this anyway? If there is a small hump, just live with it, or spot file it flatter.

[Doug Dawson]

Get a good flat 10-12" mill file if it needs alot removed or a #2 if not so much removed. a good straight edge, and file it flat and straight yourself. By good file, I mean a flat straight file.
It is not hard to do with a little common sense, and probably only needs little metal removed.

To refine this a little: a surface plate, blue layout fluid, and a carbide scraper, will do this job quite quickly, if you go _slowly_ and check your work often. That said, a slightly high point right at the front of the mouth is the least of your potential problems here. I personally would not do this. It's an easy way to ruin an otherwise usable plane. If it worked before, it should work now.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi all,
I have a #8 plane with a hump right behind the mouth and I am looking for someone that can grind it flat for me. Ken Hatch told me there was someone here on '
the creek that did that but I couldn't find him. I must not be inputting the right search words and after doing that for an hour I said no mas. Anyone here have a better memory for this then me?
thanx
ralph

Ralph, This depends on you and your confidence in tackling this by yourself. If you feel reluctant to work on the sole yourself, then it is fortunate that Tom Bussey may be accepting new customers.

It is possible to totally mess up the sole of a plane by rubbing it on abrasive sheets. By that reasoning, it is possible to also remove metal in a planned manner and improve a plane's performance.

Tom's reasoning:

But After working with metal as a Tool and Die Maker for 50 plus years I can honestly say that 99% of the current population do not have the hand skills or the resources to lap in a hand plane.

Maybe this puts me in the category of 1% able to lap in a hand plane. Maybe it puts me in a larger percentage that can perform enhancements to the sole of a plane to make it work better. My goal isn't to flatten a plane's sole to within a few thousandths of an inch. This could mean my skills and resources are not up to 'properly' lap the sole of a hand plane. My goal is to make a plane function reliably consistently, for this my skills and resources are adequate.


jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Tom is accurate in my estimation, technically you need a lapping plate larger than the sole of the plane. That’s a big plate for a #8.

A plane sole doesn’t need to be perfectly flat but a hump behind the mouth will certainly cause issue. Certain shapes are no problem, and certain shapes are a problem.

Twist would be a problem, a hump behind the mouth would be a problem. A smooth curve with the mouth being the highest point (point contacting the wood) should not be a problem unless it's curved a lot. A curve where the ends are the highest point may present a problem unless the plane flattens out from its own weight.

[Gary Ragatz]

Rhetorical question if it was so easy to flatten a plane by hand then why didn't the factory do it in the first place?

I'm not sure how easy it is to flatten a plane by hand, but I know it's pretty easy to count to 30 (I borrow my wife's and son's fingers). ;)

So why did the DeWalt planer stand I assembled last week have only 29 of the 30 required carriage bolt/lock washer/nut sets needed? I think the answer is, sometimes the people or the robots in the factory just mess up, and nobody does 100% inspection/testing on products produced in high volume unless a defect might result in someone being seriously injured.

[Doug Dawson]

Tom is accurate in my estimation, technically you need a lapping plate larger than the sole of the plane. That’s a big plate for a #8.

A plane sole doesn’t need to be perfectly flat but a hump behind the mouth will certainly cause issue. Certain shapes are no problem, and certain shapes are a problem.

Twist would be a problem, a hump behind the mouth would be a problem. A smooth curve with the mouth being the highest point (point contacting the wood) should not be a problem unless it's curved a lot. A curve where the ends are the highest point may present a problem unless the plane flattens out from its own weight.

This all depends on what the meaning of the word "behind" is. The OP should clarify whether the "hump" (never specified what size) is towards the front or the back of the plane, adjacent to the mouth. If the hump was to the _rear_ of the mouth, the plane would never have worked at all. But if the plane had ever actually been _used_ (and not immediately hurled against the wall,) it would have to be at the _front_ of the mouth.

BTW, a thick piece of float glass would do in a pinch.

[Tom Bussey]

I watched Martha Stewart show people how to sharpen a spade(shovel) with a file on TV one time. She used the file backwards which gave a lot of credibility to the demonstration. The truth is, she was the show person and she didn't have a clue.
The real problem with the bottom is most people want there to be a problem and they think they know all about it because they read about it or saw it done. And they want to tell the people who visit their shop about what all they did. So they scratch up the bottoms in 30 minutes or so when it takes me a couple of hours to do on a surface grinder and think the really did something. But what do I know, I only took 4 people to Disney World for 7 days by fixing plane bottoms people screwed up.

Do yourselves a favor and shine up the bottom, wax it and by all means sharpen it and just spend time learning how to use it. Now that develops skill. And sharpening is another whole different ball game, How sharp is sharp?

[Ralph Boumenot]

Hi Brian
you hit on the two things I am most concerned about - twist and humps. Once I get it ground I can do the rest without any fear of causing any other problems.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Hi Rob
my current method of sanding my planes is to lay sandpaper down on a 36" long marble threshold. That works very well for planes up to a #6. The #6 is a stretch but I did manage to do 3 of them on it. The #8 and the #7 are too long and there isn't enough of a runway to effectively sand them.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Hi Tom
I don't trust my skill or ability to sand this sole flat and remove the hump. That is why I am willing to pay someone to do that part of the rehab for me correctly. There is absolutely no machine shop in my immediate area that will do it. I have asked 15 and 15 no replies tells me that they aren't interested.
I really want the sole flat, not within +/- 2 atoms, but flat and shiny. I'll take the rest of the rehabbing from there. I have done about 20-30 of them so far but the #7 and #8 is too large for the 36" marble threshold I use to sand my plane bottoms.

[Ralph Boumenot]

I tend to be a bit anal about these things. If Tom can't do it this winter then I will attack it with a file and live with it.

[Ralph Boumenot]

I have done my share of plane rehabs but the #8 is the largest one I will have attempted to do. I need a bit of help with it.

[Jim Koepke]

Rhetorical question if it was so easy to flatten a plane by hand then why didn't the factory do it in the first place?

1. It is not greatly difficult but it does take time, often an hour or more.
2. The person doing the lapping has to pay close attention to the work being done. This requires frequent checking.
3. Stanley likely didn't check every plane's sole before it left the factory. If they did, they did a terrible job of it or their acceptable tolerance was to tolerant.

jtk

[Ralph Boumenot]

This is why I am seeking help with the sole of the #8 Tom. I have done a lot of rehabs but this one is a bit beyond me. All of my planes are sanded and shined up to 600 grit and then I autosol them. I do this for two reasons, the first is I like a shiny plane and two it helps with the planing because I don't like applying wax to the sole. Yes it gets slippery and it is easier to push but I lose 99% of the feedback I get from an unwaxed sole.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Hand filing is a skill that takes practice and time. I don't want to practice on my #8 and I don't have the time to dilly dally rehabbing it either.

[Ralph Boumenot]

I found the hump with a 12" precision flat bar. I have a 36" marble threshold that I use for plane rehabs but a #8 is 24" long so that makes for a 12" sanding stoke which is useless. The plate would have to be a minimum of 48" and I couldn't find a 48" threshold. As for it working before I got it I don't know that. It is/was filthy dirty and had black gummy substance under the frog but no wood shavings. It is in very good shape and I would like very much to rehab it and put it back to work.

[Ralph Boumenot]

I am interested in flat and not some insane plus or minus a billionth of a point. I don't think it is something that I can do by hand even though I have done a lot of other planes. But they were all a wee bit smaller and lighter that this #8.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Tom I really want to return this #8 back to working wood again. I have done what you wrote on other planes but this is bigger than any other one I have done. I PM'ed you about using you services and I'm willing to wait and I think the cost is more than reasonable.

[Ralph Boumenot]

In my opinion, Stanley planes weren't manufactured to a high standard. I have found frog faces that were twisted, humped, concave, and looked like crap. There was almost no filing of the casting judging by the roughness of them and even the frog seats on the Baileys are not anything to write home about. In spite of all of this I love the Old Stanley planes from type 10 on down. I get a lot of satisfaction rehabbing a tool that was made in the 19th/20th century and having it make shavings again.

[Ted Calver]

I'll bet there are more of us than just Ralph that would be willing to pay $$$ to have a plane ground flat and square. Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that give people reasons to pay for what others think is an unnecessary service. I'm glad Tom is getting back in the business.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Ted I don't care about square as I don't use the plane in that manner. Flat is all I am really interested it.

[Stewie Simpson]

Ralph; the following is an article written by Chuck Bender that you may find of interest;


Whether your plane is hand or power, you really only need to know a few things. For a hand plane, three points need to be in the same plane: the toe, the area right behind the mouth and somewhere toward the back of the plane. Honestly, you really can get away with two of those. The only one that has to remain is the spot right behind the mouth. It means you may have to learn how to apply pressure differently as you use the plane but it will still work. Sharp is far more important than flat. I don’t care what method you use to sharpen. Just pick the one that makes the most sense to you https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/plane-facts/


(https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/plane-facts/)

[glenn bradley]

Ralph -

- Have you considered sandpaper on a flat surface as a means to lap the hump out? I have a #7 that I did that with. I took a 150 grit sanding belt, cut it open, and laid it out on my table saw. It made short work of flattening the plane bottom. I followed up with some finer grits and it's smooth as a baby's bottom now.

This is what I do.

[Doug Dawson]

I found the hump with a 12" precision flat bar. I have a 36" marble threshold that I use for plane rehabs but a #8 is 24" long so that makes for a 12" sanding stoke which is useless. The plate would have to be a minimum of 48" and I couldn't find a 48" threshold. As for it working before I got it I don't know that. It is/was filthy dirty and had black gummy substance under the frog but no wood shavings. It is in very good shape and I would like very much to rehab it and put it back to work.

So you haven't tried actually using the plane yet? You should sharpen the iron, stick it back in the plane, and use it for a while. Then decide if there's still a problem, based on _performance_, and work from there. This will potentially save you a boatload of time. In fact, it will take barely any time at all.

BTW, how do you measure the flatness of a 24" plane with a 12" bar, and how do you know the bar is straight? Likewise, how do you know the marble threshold is flat, with a 12" bar? You could be introducing a systemic error to all your planes.

[Ralph Boumenot]

I don't remember that editorial by Chuck. I agree that flat is good enough and that is all I want with my #8. Can I do it by hand like I have done with so many other planes? I don't think so. So I'm hoping Tom will get it flat and then I can make it shiny, sharpen the iron, and put it back to making shavings. And that will put my happy face back on.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Makes me wish I had a big jointer because my tablesaw isn't much bigger then the length of the #8.

[Tom Trees]

Stay away from the edges of your plane if your going to lap it on a surface plate, otherwise you will make the sole convex.

Tom

[Pat Barry]

Since this thread keeps going, could the OP please post a picture with a straightedge to illustrate how big the hump is and where it is located?

[Ralph Boumenot]

I did try the plane out of the box with the iron as I received it. It made shavings on pine. I want to clean it up and make it shiny like all the planes I have done.
The 12" flat bar is a precision 12" one I got from Lee Valley. It rocks when it is placed behind the mouth of the plane which I take to be a hump. As for the marble threshold, I have never checked it for flatness. It looks and feels flat and I use it as it is. I haven't had any problems with the other planes I have rehabbed on it and I have done 41 so far and I have 6 more waiting to take their turn on it.

[Mark Hennebury]

Plane soles don't need to be flat.

If for some reason you want it flat, you need to know how to check it for flat.

And to check for flat you need to have reference surface.

You can scrape, grind, or sand, it doesn't matter what way you remove excess metal.
Scraping can be done with an electric or manual scraper, you can buy or make a manual scraper.
Grinding can be done on a surface grinder, it can also be done with an angle grinder, a die grinder or a little Dremmel grinder.

You need to understand what flat is, and what you are trying to do, it would be nice if you had a reason for doing it, because it has nothing to do with the function.

Buy a granite surface plate with a certificate, would be a start. (Not that it is absolutely essential)
A good (full length) straight edge would be sufficient.

[Pat Barry]

I did try the plane out of the box with the iron as I received it. It made shavings on pine. I want to clean it up and make it shiny like all the planes I have done.
The 12" flat bar is a precision 12" one I got from Lee Valley. It rocks when it is placed behind the mouth of the plane which I take to be a hump. As for the marble threshold, I have never checked it for flatness. It looks and feels flat and I use it as it is. I haven't had any problems with the other planes I have rehabbed on it and I have done 41 so far and I have 6 more waiting to take their turn on it.

It sounds like the hump may be quite a distance from the mouth from this description. The further away, the less affect. Maybe though, you just want nice and shiny. Its not like anyone really uses a plane this large very often.

[justin sherriff]

why not just buff it if all you need is nice and shiny

[Eric Danstrom]

here's the German take on plane flatness and how to measure it:
https://www.fine-tools.com/rechtwinkligkeit-und-planheit-bei-hobeln.html


People who buy our planes quite often complain about the flatness of the soles and their perpendicularity to the sides of the planes. When we come to check these planes we find that in most cases the complaints are unfounded because the planes are perfectly alright. How do these discrepancies arise?

[Jim Koepke]

I did try the plane out of the box with the iron as I received it. It made shavings on pine. I want to clean it up and make it shiny like all the planes I have done.
The 12" flat bar is a precision 12" one I got from Lee Valley. It rocks when it is placed behind the mouth of the plane which I take to be a hump. As for the marble threshold, I have never checked it for flatness. It looks and feels flat and I use it as it is. I haven't had any problems with the other planes I have rehabbed on it and I have done 41 so far and I have 6 more waiting to take their turn on it.

The question is if the plane works as needed or if it doesn't.

Don't try to fix what ain't broken.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

here's the German take on plane flatness and how to measure it:
https://www.fine-tools.com/rechtwinkligkeit-und-planheit-bei-hobeln.html

Exactly. I posted up a thread in General woodworking titled ‘metrology for the cabinetmaker’. It takes at least a surface plate, an accurate square that is checked for accuracy (not scribe and flip method, but checked against a true reference like a cylinder square) and feeler gauges.

[Ralph Boumenot]

I have tried to post pics but I can't. I don't know why but SMC for whatever reason doesn't recognize my pic files.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Will do but hopefully I'll get it ground before that happens.

[Alan Schwabacher]

One reason people are asking to see the problem is related to the comments that Japanese plane soles are not flat: certain parts of the sole should be in line, while other parts matter less or not at all. The toe, the heel, and the part of the sole just in front of the blade should be in a plane. Since your 12" rule is not long enough to span the important parts, it is possible that your plane is set up perfectly now, and that grinding out the hump may make you need to grind a lot more to get the plane to work well again.

[Jim Koepke]

I have tried to post pics but I can't. I don't know why but SMC for whatever reason doesn't recognize my pic files.

There is a limit to how big of a file can be posted on SMC. If you have an image handling application you may be able to convert it to a jpeg of a smaller file size.

jtk

[Clavius Walker]

Yes, I am starting to grind again on a very very limited basis. Maybe this winter.

But After working with metal as a Tool and Die Maker for 50 plus years I can honestly say that 99% of the current population do not have the hand skills or the resources to lap in a hand plane. In all truthfulness all you are doing is scratching the bottom. Old iron is harder than the newer stuff. You have a 100% better chance of lapping a 1/2 inch chisel flat than a plane. I have had people send me planes after they spent a lot of time on them and I can tell it they are right or left handed and measure the amount of damage they did. Yes I know everyone knows how to do it and that it doesn't take long but a few hundred years ago every one Also knew the world was flat and if you sailed to far you would fall off.

If a person puts some fine sand paper on their electric sander and sands the bottom, they will get a shiny bottom that will slide easier than t dirty bottom. Some past wax like Johnson's floor wax or tree wax it will slide even easier. To be honest the best money spent as far as planning goes is sharpening supplies. Actually all shop tools benefit for being sharp. Wooden hand plane have been used for thousands of years and I doubt they were flat.

The real truth is:
A sharp plane works
If iron sanded well they wouldn't have needed to design and build milling machines and surface grinders.
Save yourself time, aggravation, and money and don't bother trying lapping the bottom.
Shine the bottom, wax it, and get on with your life. 1 or two sheets of 180-220 paper on a random orbit sander should do the trick and don't try to reuse the paper on wood.
There are some good new plane manufacturers out there and quality is long remembered after a cheap price is forgotten.

If man was supposed to fly then God would have given him wings rates right up there with I bought a plane at a garage sale and it must be flattened before I can use it.

Rhetorical question if it was so easy to flatten a plane by hand then why didn't the factory do it in the first place?


Tom, I don't know if you'll see this or not and I can't seem to figure out how to work the PM function on this site.
I've got a question for you about flattening a plane, I'd like to send it to you for your services but wanted to get your opinion on doing it first, it's an old type 1 Millers Falls 15 (Stanley 5 1/2 equiv) that I would really like to use for one specific purpose in box making. Anyhow, if you could respond to this or maybe PM me, I would be most appreciative.

Thanks

[Jim Koepke]

Tom, I don't know if you'll see this or not and I can't seem to figure out how to work the PM function on this site.
I've got a question for you about flattening a plane, I'd like to send it to you for your services but wanted to get your opinion on doing it first, it's an old type 1 Millers Falls 15 (Stanley 5 1/2 equiv) that I would really like to use for one specific purpose in box making. Anyhow, if you could respond to this or maybe PM me, I would be most appreciative.

Thanks

Howdy Clavius, to use the PM function on this site one has to be a contributor, currently a mere cost of $6 a year.

You mention a Millers Falls #15. Is it currently incapable of performing "one specific purpose in box making"?

Can you expand some on that particular purpose?

jtk

[Marinus Loewensteijn]

Yes, I am starting to grind again on a very very limited basis. Maybe this winter.

But After working with metal as a Tool and Die Maker for 50 plus years I can honestly say that 99% of the current population do not have the hand skills or the resources to lap in a hand plane. In all truthfulness all you are doing is scratching the bottom. Old iron is harder than the newer stuff. You have a 100% better chance of lapping a 1/2 inch chisel flat than a plane. I have had people send me planes after they spent a lot of time on them and I can tell it they are right or left handed and measure the amount of damage they did. Yes I know everyone knows how to do it and that it doesn't take long but a few hundred years ago every one Also knew the world was flat and if you sailed to far you would fall off.

If a person puts some fine sand paper on their electric sander and sands the bottom, they will get a shiny bottom that will slide easier than t dirty bottom. Some past wax like Johnson's floor wax or tree wax it will slide even easier. To be honest the best money spent as far as planning goes is sharpening supplies. Actually all shop tools benefit for being sharp. Wooden hand plane have been used for thousands of years and I doubt they were flat.

The real truth is:
A sharp plane works
If iron sanded well they wouldn't have needed to design and build milling machines and surface grinders.
Save yourself time, aggravation, and money and don't bother trying lapping the bottom.
Shine the bottom, wax it, and get on with your life. 1 or two sheets of 180-220 paper on a random orbit sander should do the trick and don't try to reuse the paper on wood.
There are some good new plane manufacturers out there and quality is long remembered after a cheap price is forgotten.

If man was supposed to fly then God would have given him wings rates right up there with I bought a plane at a garage sale and it must be flattened before I can use it.

Rhetorical question if it was so easy to flatten a plane by hand then why didn't the factory do it in the first place?

I've ground optics in the past and know how to test. I've also attempted to use several of the popular internet methods for flattening the sole of a plane. Popular delusion: None were succesful.

Trust Tom when he states the above. Not to forget that steel flexes, the longer it is the more it flexes. And the timber you are working on also moves, especially if supported on a few saw horses. The only time you can touch the bottom of a plane sole is when there are some protruding nicks as the result of dropping something and mark the timber when planing.

[Clavius Walker]

Howdy Clavius, to use the PM function on this site one has to be a contributor, currently a mere cost of $6 a year.

You mention a Millers Falls #15. Is it currently incapable of performing "one specific purpose in box making"?

Can you expand some on that particular purpose?

jtk

I will definitely look into becoming a contributor, I've browsed posts off and on here for years though never really posted.

I want to use the plane to level off the bottom and top, the plane would sometimes be spanning a good distance, having the blade engaged and having the tip of the sole referencing a far side. I do this now with a LN 4 1/2 on smaller boxes but would like to use the Millers Falls for larger one. Right now the Millers Falls has a convex sole with the toe and heel being a few thousands off. It's a bit of a rarer plane as the type 1s weren't made very long, would like to use it for this purpose, contemplated buying a LN 5 1/2 or 6 for the task but kinda like using the older tools.

[Marinus Loewensteijn]

......
I want to use the plane to level off the bottom and top, the plane would sometimes be spanning a good distance, having the blade engaged and having the tip of the sole referencing a far side. I do this now with a LN 4 1/2 on smaller boxes but would like to use the Millers Falls for larger one.
.....
.....

I'm not 100% clear on what you are trying to do.

FWIW: If one leg of a chair is not in the same plane as the other three then I would mount the plane upside down in a vise and have the other legs on the benchtop and move the chair / leg over the plane. Worked every time but your benchtop has to be flat. If you are wanting to square the edges of some timber then perhaps an edge plane may be useful but a rabbet plane with a side fence may work just as well. I've use a shoulder plane with a piece of maple clamped to its side in a pinch. (No longer can use a shoulder plane due to arthritis and no longer have one). Veritas has a magnetic fence that you can use on a benchplane and use that for squaring the edge. Several options in that regard.

[Clavius Walker]

I'm not 100% clear on what you are trying to do.


Yeah, reading what I wrote it wasn't clear, it's for leveling out the top or bottom of a box, bottom so that it'll sit flat and top so that a top will sit flat.

The box is clamped to the top of the bench with a jig with the top or bottom facing up and the plane is used to chase around the edges to bring them all into the same plane if that makes sense.

[Jim Koepke]

It makes sense to me. This does also seem like a task for a plane with a flat as possible sole.

You may want to have Tom perfect your plane's sole for you.

jtk

[J. Greg Jones]

I do this now with a LN 4 1/2 on smaller boxes but would like to use the Millers Falls for larger one. Right now the Millers Falls has a convex sole with the toe and heel being a few thousands off. It's a bit of a rarer plane as the type 1s weren't made very long, would like to use it for this purpose, contemplated buying a LN 5 1/2 or 6 for the task but kinda like using the older tools.
I’m not trying to talk you in or out of anything, but I would expect that a Type 1 Millers Falls #15 would probably fetch enough on the auction site to pay for a L-N 5-1/2 or 6. Any #15 is hard to find, an also being a Type 1 makes it pretty rare.

[Marinus Loewensteijn]

I’m not trying to talk you in or out of anything, but I would expect that a Type 1 Millers Falls #15 would probably fetch enough on the auction site to pay for a L-N 5-1/2 or 6. Any #15 is hard to find, an also being a Type 1 makes it pretty rare.

^^^ This (and when you thinker with it then it looses a lot of its collector value)

[Jim Koepke]

I’m not trying to talk you in or out of anything, but I would expect that a Type 1 Millers Falls #15 would probably fetch enough on the auction site to pay for a L-N 5-1/2 or 6. Any #15 is hard to find, an also being a Type 1 makes it pretty rare.


^^^ This (and when you thinker with it then it looses a lot of its collector value)

In the completed listings on ebay is one type 1 Millers Falls #15. It sold for ~$150.

Lie-Nielsen currently lists their #5-1/2 at $375.

If you want to save a touch of money, find an old Stanley/Bailey #6. It is only a few inches longer.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Or 2..
417168
depends on what sole you like, too...
417169
easy enough to find..

[J. Greg Jones]

In the completed listings on ebay is one type 1 Millers Falls #15. It sold for ~$150.

Lie-Nielsen currently lists their #5-1/2 at $375.

If you want to save a touch of money, find an old Stanley/Bailey #6. It is only a few inches longer.

jtk
If it’s the same one I just found, it was a buy it now from the UK, before calculating shipping. I never saw this one when the auction was active, and I check for Miller’s Falls planes every day, so I’m assuming it sold quickly with BIN. This summer I bid $175 + shipping on a Type 2 #15 here in the US, and I didn’t win the auction. It’s the only one I’ve ever seen on eBay when the auction was still active.

Having said that, I agree that a Stanley 5-1/2 or 6 or even a Millers Falls #6 (easier to find) would be less than a L-N. One additional plus for a L-N 5-1/2 or 6is that the blade and cap iron would be interchangeable with the 4-1/2 he already has.

[Clavius Walker]

If it’s the same one I just found, it was a buy it now from the UK, before calculating shipping. I never saw this one when the auction was active, and I check for Miller’s Falls planes every day, so I’m assuming it sold quickly with BIN. This summer I bid $175 + shipping on a Type 2 #15 here in the US, and I didn’t win the auction. It’s the only one I’ve ever seen on eBay when the auction was still active.

Having said that, I agree that a Stanley 5-1/2 or 6 or even a Millers Falls #6 (easier to find) would be less than a L-N. One additional plus for a L-N 5-1/2 or 6is that the blade and cap iron would be interchangeable with the 4-1/2 he already has.

Yeah, the 15 type 1s are a little rare, I only have 2 tyoe 1s the 15 and an 8 that was advertised as a 9.

I had considered the LN for that very reason, ordering the 6 with a 50 or 55 degree frog and swap it out for the one in my 4 1/2, that being said I just don't like seeing an old tool sit on the shelf and not be used.

[J. Greg Jones]

In the Millers Falls bench plane line, I have two Type 1s myself, a #9 and a #22. I also have a #8, another #9, a #10, #14, #18, and another #22 that are other than Type 1.

[Clavius Walker]

That 22 is a nice find there, saw a 24 on ebay within the last year, if I remember correctly the winning bid was around $900, too rich for me.

[Marinus Loewensteijn]

....
....
that being said I just don't like seeing an old tool sit on the shelf and not be used....
....



I know the feeling especially in todays throw-away society. At times you've got to weigh up if it makes economically sense, I enjoy working with old tools as often they are better made than the modern equivalent. Sometimes there is not a modern equivalent.

[Allen Read]

The real truth is:
A sharp plane works


Tom is definitely right about this. As my Dad told me more than half a century ago, "When it comes to woodworking tools, sharp fixes a lot of ugly."

OP I suggest that you sharpen up your #8 and see if it really needs to be flattened. You might get a pleasant surprise. However, I do understand about knowing that something is not perfect and that little doubt in your mind that it could work better if it was corrected. It can drive us OCD types crazy :)

Allen

[carey mitchell]

I can attest to the fact that filing is a skill. Back in the late '70's and 80's I builkt a lot of muzzle loading rifles - from scratch, meaning lock, stock and barrel. That entails a LOT of filing. The most challenging was draw filing the flats on octagonal barrels. I also draw filed planing forms for planing the taper on bamboo for making bamboo fly rods - lots of work.

Advice: First, buy GOOD files; it makes the chore easier, despite the price. Second, slow down and constantly check your work.

[Jim Koepke]

Second, slow down and constantly check your work.

This is an important step, especially when removing metal. It is also important to know if and/or what metal one needs to remove.

jtk

[Tom Bussey]

Ralph has said that he has a high spot right be hind his throat opening. If it is really high, the plane rocks when the pressure is switched from the toe to the heel. This caused the chipto brake and the edge to not be straight and a straight edge is why he wants to use a jointer in the first place. A sharp blade can't fix this problem and if someone tries to lap it they just make the high spot worse because it rocks.

This is why I am assuming that Ralph has sent his plane to me to do. Hopefully he will post about his out come when he gets it back.

[ken hatch]

Ralph has said that he has a high spot right be hind his throat opening. If it is really high, the plane rocks when the pressure is switched from the toe to the heel. This caused the chipto brake and the edge to not be straight and a straight edge is why he wants to use a jointer in the first place. A sharp blade can't fix this problem and if someone tries to lap it they just make the high spot worse because it rocks.

This is why I am assuming that Ralph has sent his plane to me to do. Hopefully he will post about his out come when he gets it back.

Tom,

I saw on Ralph's blog he has built a shipping box. Ralph is a stand up guy, glad you can help him out.

ken

[Don Kingston]

Hand filing is a skill that takes practice and time. I don't want to practice on my #8 and I don't have the time to dilly dally rehabbing it either.

I read somewhere from a man that said, "filing should be a 1 year apprentiship at least." The things that can be done with files and rifflers are amazing ( in the right hands) I have always remembere that. I wish I could find it again.
Then listen to Mr. Bussey

[Don Kingston]

I found the hump with a 12" precision flat bar. I have a 36" marble threshold that I use for plane rehabs but a #8 is 24" long so that makes for a 12" sanding stoke which is useless. The plate would have to be a minimum of 48" and I couldn't find a 48" threshold. As for it working before I got it I don't know that. It is/was filthy dirty and had black gummy substance under the frog but no wood shavings. It is in very good shape and I would like very much to rehab it and put it back to work.

A great place to get stone/ marble/ granite, is a place that supplies headstone makers, or the headstone maker themselves.

[Charles Guest]

Evaluate the sole for twist first, which isn't always easy. The bump behind the mouth could be the least of your concerns.

[steven c newman]

Warped? Nah...more like worn. How many decades of dragging the plane back, after each stroke, while keeping the toe on the boards? If the operators over that same amount of time, always pushed their planes at a slight skew? tends to add up after a while, don't it? Wood bodied planes do warp....they are made of wood, and they wear faster. Heat MIGHT warp the iron bodies, but...I don't think anyone would heat up a plane.....unless they grind a sole....or braze a break.....then things might warp...worse than when you started with...

[Jim Koepke]

A great place to get stone/ marble/ granite, is a place that supplies headstone makers, or the headstone maker themselves.

That is where my big hunka granite was acquired:

417366

This one is about 4' long.

Check locally for monument makers.

jtk

[William Fretwell]

Very recently I ‘lapped’ the bottom of two planes, a post war Stanley #4 and a brand new Lie Nielsen hinge plane. Both were in a cardboard box on the floor going out to a job site when a Tornado touched down nearby and the rain was so hard I had 3” of muddy water in my whole shop. It was several days before I discovered this and both planes had considerable rust on the bottom and sides.
I removed the worst of the rust with an oil stone, then washed them and switched to a good size CBN plate, coarse to start then fine. Watching the shades of grey on the bottom teaches you how hard it is to do this evenly, even in a figure of 8 and swapping end for end often as my engineer father taught me. After that I used my Shapton water stones up to 5000. The area behind the mouth on the Stanley was clearly very slightly lower than the rest of the bottom. The Lie Nielsen was somewhat less rusty and faster to fix, shiny is now grey.
Not the same lapping challenge as the OP but teaches you how hard it is to do well.
My new hobby: cleaning up 1400 sq feet of dried mud under and around tools, emptying plastic tool cases of water and throwing away boxes.
Perhaps you can rust off your high spot Ralph? ;)

[Tom Trees]

Take off the high spots first, colour in the sole and make sure to leave the edges until the very last...i.e
Don't use an abrasive longer or wider than the plane is, otherwise you will make it convex if your lapping it
on a surface plate.
The ink is very helpful as it will tell you that your getting too close to the edges.
You only need a few licks at the very end with full width/length abrasive, don't go too far as you will ruin all of your work.
Don't follow any video instructions that won't demonstrate the test at the end with feelers.
You won't find a video of lapping done correctly as far as I know, but maybe someday someone will do one.

Tom

[Doug Dawson]

Take off the high spots first, colour in the sole and make sure to leave the edges until the very last...i.e
Don't use an abrasive longer or wider than the plane is, otherwise you will make it convex if your lapping it
on a surface plate.
The ink is very helpful as it will tell you that your getting too close to the edges.
You only need a few licks at the very end with full width/length abrasive, don't go too far as you will ruin all of your work.
Don't follow any video instructions that won't demonstrate the test at the end with feelers.
You won't find a video of lapping done correctly as far as I know, but maybe someday someone will do one.


Oh, I hope not. :^) So many planes, so much suffering, it makes my head hurt. You're on the right track, but this is better done with a scraper. Here's a good one: google "Innovative Tools International SS-1 Super Scraper", if you want to go down that road. This is my current favorite for touching up machined surfaces. It's a pleasure to use. Have I ever used it on a plane? I haven't had to, they worked before and they work now.

[Mike Cornwall]

Tom, I’ve tried to message you through here but I think I sent it wrong. I also have a #8 with a big hump, id also like to ask if you’d flatten it. If you don’t get the message I sent to your profile, please let me know how I can get this plane to you?

[Tom Bussey]

Someone also asked me about a jack plane and I lost it somehow. I do not know to contact a guess. I am not very good with computers or cell phones . It is not my generation. If it as sent as a personal massage I will get it. If you try to befriend me I just locked up and I do not know how to proceed.

[Jim Koepke]

Tom, I’ve tried to message you through here but I think I sent it wrong. I also have a #8 with a big hump, id also like to ask if you’d flatten it. If you don’t get the message I sent to your profile, please let me know how I can get this plane to you?

Mike, click on Tom's name at the top of his post. This should open a window with various choices. Click on Private Message and that should take you to a page to compose a private message to Tom.

jtk

[Tom Trees]

https://youtu.be/w_ux786ODwg


Just made a wee video since I was wanting my no.8 for my workbench top.
Not used to making videos, so you will have to cut me some slack on that.
My dialogue could be structured a bit, and no I didn't mean to say I've knocked my no.51/2 off the bench, :eek:
I meant to say... I've hit it off the edge of the bench a few times, whilst kneeling down to check timbers for flatness.

Had to make it only accessible through this link though, as it doesn't appear possible to make my channel invisible on mates subscription lists.
Too close to home to be identified as a woodworker

I'll have to get some fresh abrasive to finish the plane off, but its working OK now.
I could do a part three but it would be the same thing, and I can't prove that the method works without a precision straight edge or surface plate to demonstrate.

Tom

[Tom Trees]

Here's part two.
I wasn't able to post more than one video or link

https://youtu.be/3MlE7Nz3eKg
Tom