Design Critiques Requested

[Dan Larson]

For a while now I've been thinking about a dining room table design. I'm finally at the stage where I'd be comfortable submitting my idea for some constructive criticism. I'd really appreciate input that anyone has to offer.

First of all, a few design objectives:

1. The table is intended to be used with our existing dining room chairs (see pic below.) Since the Eames chairs have a very light look, the table needs to have a lighter look to it.
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2. Contrary to the table looking light, it must be rock solid. I'd be disappointed with a table that flexes or wobbles significantly.

3. Table must seating 6 people-- 3 chairs on each side of the table. No seating at the ends of the table. Rough length, width, and height: 80"X40"X28".

4. Wood will be walnut.

Well, here are some rough models. Forgive the crudeness of the rendering, I'm a nubie to Sketchup...
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Questions:
A. Well, what do you think???

B. How can I make the design better?

C. How thick should the table tops be to avoid springiness? I was thinking of a little less than 2".

D. What size stock for legs? I was thinking 2.5"X4" at the widest part of the taper. Can I go smaller and still avoid wobble of the table? Do I need to make them bigger?

Thanks a lot for taking the time to look.

Dan

[Matt Meiser]

Dan, to me it kind of looks like a picnic table due to the way the legs are shaped. I would turn them the other way and do a bent wood lamination to shape the legs as one piece like your chairs' legs (I say that having no experience with doing bent wood laminations.) If you provide adequate support underneath, I don't think that the top needs to be that thick.

[Mark Singer]

Dining table design has a couple of critical issues....legs..make sure they are not in the way of people seated or getting in or out...you have a problem there.

Esthetics....the major element that is viewed is the top....it masks much of the rest.... I would try to establish a stronger dialogue between the top and the base....either juxtapose...or unity like the Eames chair....Try different things and post them....I don't want to draw anything and take your fun away....what about a bent ply lamination base?

[Dan Larson]

Mark, thanks for having the patience to let me make my own design mistakes, and for giving me the chance to fix them myself.

Matt, my wife thinks it looks picnic table-like too.

The legs are supposed to be near the ends of the table, since chairs won't be placed there. The idea was for the row of 3 chairs to be between the sets of legs. The only other potential obstruction would be the base cross support. I think this is high enough to not catch people in the knees when they're seated.

For a while I kicked around ideas for bent lamination base. The idea intrigues me. I love the look of bent laminations. Haven't yet been able to pull together a design that doesn't look ridiculous when compared to the elegant bent lamination forms of Eames. I'll let this concept percolate in my head some more.

[Tim Sproul]

The chairs have very little in the way of straight lines yet your design for a 'matching' dining table is completely straight lined.

I'd try throwing in some curves.....

[Earl Kelly]

Dan, looks like you have some refining to do. A couple of dimensions to consider... 24" minimum per setting at the table, and unless you want a short table, most dining tables are 29-29 1/2" tall. Yes the 1-1 1/2" will make a difference.

I think you'll find the right combination of design and strength with a little more work.

[Jamie Buxton]

Dan ---
Well, I like the design. There's curves in the chairs, and straight lines in the table. So what? I like contrast.

I've sat in an Eames chair like that, and thought that it was somewhat lower than I expected. It wasn't uncomfortable, just a little lower. There are lots of related Eames designs, so maybe I wasn't sitting in yours. But if your chair's seat is a little low, maybe your 28" table height is the right one. Mock it up. Sit in your chairs, and prop up a piece of plywood to see what feels right to you. Try your wife too. Your own feeling is more important than "what the books say".

As to the leg cross-section, yes 2.5x4 would be sufficient to ensure that the legs don't flex. I'd think carefully about their joint to that cross-member. The cross-member looks to be maybe 3" tall. If somebody drags the table across the floor in the long direction of the table top, the legs are nice long levers trying to break that joint.

I don't think the top must be 2" thick. Particularly considering that light appearance is among your design objectives, thinner than that would be better -- like 1 1/4". If you worry about that being too thin, you can do either of two things: make the plank thicker, but bevel the bottom near the edge to make it look thinner; or run a little brace in the middle down to the beam below the plank.

Mark's right that functionality is an important thing. However, I'd say he's forgetting many traditional tables which have legs at the corners. Yes, they prevent people from sitting at the corners, but if you're okay with that, why not?

Jamie

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

Just my opinion, but the chairs flow and the tables shown do not. While I agree with Mark that the top Masks some of the elements. It does not, as you are aproaching it, so the legs would be seen as a major asthetic element.

Bruce;)

[Mark Singer]

With the legs angling out they are sure to catch feet when you get in or out....the legs look thin and weak they are thinner than the chair legs...should be the other way around

[Dan Larson]

Thanks to all for the comments. I really do appreciate the diversity in your opinions.


There's curves in the chairs, and straight lines in the table. So what? I like contrast.

To be honest, the rectilinear table design was the result of a deliberate decision to contrast the chair design. Of course contrast only works if it's complimentry. The consensus seems to be that I need to work to make the table compliment the chairs better. I will work on trying to achieve this.


I've sat in an Eames chair like that, and thought that it was somewhat lower than I expected. It wasn't uncomfortable, just a little lower. There are lots of related Eames designs, so maybe I wasn't sitting in yours. But if your chair's seat is a little low, maybe your 28" table height is the right one. Mock it up. Sit in your chairs, and prop up a piece of plywood to see what feels right to you. Try your wife too.

Sitting in an Eames chair is a little different. Since your butt sits in the chair a few inches lower than your knees, you do sit a lower than a regular chair. Our current table is 29.5", and it feels way too high to us. We will try some mock-ups as you suggest. I'm a big fan of mock-ups.


As to the leg cross-section, yes 2.5x4 would be sufficient to ensure that the legs don't flex. I'd think carefully about their joint to that cross-member. The cross-member looks to be maybe 3" tall. If somebody drags the table across the floor in the long direction of the table top, the legs are nice long levers trying to break that joint.

Wedged through tenons sound reasonable to you? Is there a stronger type of joint that you can think of for this type of application?


With the legs angling out they are sure to catch feet when you get in or out....the legs look thin and weak they are thinner than the chair legs...should be the other way around.

Legs catching feet. Yes very good point. I'm glad you brought this up. The reason why I have the legs hitting the floor near the edges of the table is that I'm concerned about the table being stable enough. I don't want it to be tippy if someone leans heavily on a table edge. I would like to explore designs where the legs terminate closer to the center of the table, but I have no clue as to how far from the centerline of the table the legs need to hit the floor in order to maintain stability. Anyone have a general rule of thumb?

I will explore some options for making the legs more substantial and some other forms (including curved.)

Anyone have any opinions about the split top? I've always admired this element in many of Nakashima's tables. Granted, he used bookmatched slabs while I have no intention of doing this. Do you think the split top adds to the visual interest and uniqueness of a table, or is it merely a gimmicky distraction in this case?

Thanks again folks!

Dan

[Kent Parker]

Dan,

Here's a small table I made with multiple "splits". (the glossy shot is before it was rubbed out and waxed). The splits allow another element into the design process which is the wood grain.

The table is about 60" x 35" with a top heigth of 31". Its primarily a four person table however it will sit six comfortably providing you remove the white wine glasses before you use the Bordeaux glasses ;)

With a split top you will loose some of the strength that is realized by glueing the plank edges together however depending on the grain of your wood, under table support and thickness this can be accomodated.

When designing this top I clamped a plank of wood to a stable surface and just bore down on it to get an idea of flex properties. I was able to get a 10" overhang with 7/8" thick stock. With that overhang there's no noticable flex.

Regarding your leg issue, if the legs stick out past the top more than 4' or 5" they become obstacles for those using the table. If I recall, the designer(s) of your chairs were big on table bases that resemble two chicken legs tied together. Kinda like a single vertical post with 5 or 6 horizontal legs (like what you would find under a typical office chair). Have you thought of a variation of this? Perhaps one at each end or half of one at each end?

Yes, people can be trained however, after a nice relaxing dinner and the sences have been dulled legs that stick out will probably get wacked....there's goes the Bordeaux glasses:)

Good luck with the design process. Keep us updated.

Cheers,

Kent

[Tim Sproul]

Dan ---
Well, I like the design. There's curves in the chairs, and straight lines in the table. So what? I like contrast.

Whoa.

I suggested he 'try throwing in some curves' on the table. I don't think there is anything definitive about that. Doesn't even hint at a command of 'thou shalt not try contrasting rectilinear with curvaceous' :rolleyes: Lord knows I'm in no position to command anyone on anything woodworking related. He could just radius the corners of the top.....might add a bit of stylistic complemenation to the seats of the chairs. Or perhaps bring the two together by making the table from lamination rather than milling parts from single planks.

Your 'So what?' comment adds a bit of antagonism. Perhaps it was meant and perhaps it wasn't.

edit---

I looked again at the chair. I thought it looked laminated but now I'm not sure....so the lamination idea may not work if the chair was steam-bent rather than lamination bent.

[Dan Larson]

I looked again at the chair. I thought it looked laminated but now I'm not sure....so the lamination idea may not work if the chair was steam-bent rather than lamination bent.

Hey Tim, your initial guess was correct. All parts of the chairs are bent laminations. Inner plys look like maple to me (or some other tight grained light color wood) and the outer plys are cherry.

Last night as I was driving home from work I was thinking about bent lamination leg designs. I need to find some time to sketch for a while. Too bad I can't do this in the car.:D

Dan

[Jamie Buxton]

Whoa.

Your 'So what?' comment adds a bit of antagonism. Perhaps it was meant and perhaps it wasn't.



Tim --
No, I meant no antagonism, and I'm sorry if my comment reads that way. Had we been face-to-face, you would have seen me shrugging too.

Jamie

[Tom Sontag]

If nobody will be sitting at the ends then stability can be addressed by putting a horizontal member at the floor like you see on workbenches. The problem with the flaring legs is you have got them flaring into the side space where the chairs will be. Vertical legs should work if the sixing and joinery is appropriate.

What about tapering the top so there is less end anyway? Then each chair will be facing slightly inward and everyone can see everyone else just fine. Without tryng to integrate the chair design for one moment, a trestle table underframe strikes me as a functional choice. Sort of like the below although you might consider a ~ 2x6 rail a foot or so off the floor betwwen the legs. Okay, now mix it all up with the chair aesthetic and let me know what you think.

[Dan Larson]

Here's a small table I made with multiple "splits".

Very nice work, Kent! Works well in your dining room.


Yes, people can be trained however, after a nice relaxing dinner and the sences have been dulled legs that stick out will probably get wacked....there's goes the Bordeaux glasses:) .

Considering your home town, I hope you're not drinking Bordeaux out of those Bordeaux glasses. I wouldn't want to have to report you to the local authorities!:D

Tom, the tapered top idea is interesting. Never thought of it. I'll have to play with the idea a little. I'm starting to rework the rectillinear design and working on a new design with curves. I'm really slow, so it might be a few weeks until the next update.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Dan

[Tom Sontag]

Let me 'splain the "tapered top" phrase a bit. It could be an oval top or some other shape that leaves very little to sit at on the end. Looking at the chair again, what about echoing the rounded corners and narrowing of the chair backs? I think that maybe the best way to tie in the chairs is to have some part of the table or base show that soft bent plane effect.