Manufacturing Differences

[tod evans]

Shiraz, i raised this question in the router bit question earlier today and really would like your input: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=27567
this same line different paint thing is a question i for one would like to have clarified. having never set foot in taiwan or china i would call on Shiraz to shed some light on this matter,not specifically router bits but equipment as well. my understanding is that griz has in the last decade implimented some of the most progressive machinery factories in the middle east? my curiosity lies as to which bits/machines run down the same lines only to get painted a different color? can/will you shed some light on this Shiraz? tod

[Shiraz Balolia]

Shiraz, my understanding is that griz has in the last decade implimented some of the most progressive machinery factories in the middle east? my curiosity lies as to which bits/machines run down the same lines only to get painted a different color? can/will you shed some light on this Shiraz? tod

Tod - you mean the Far East, correct? We do not source anything from the Middle East.

Please clarify your question about "different colors". Please be specific.

[Mark Singer]

I got some great router bits from Isreal....very nice on all kinds of wood kosher, or not....I couldn't use them on Saturdays though....they don't drive:rolleyes:

[Bart Leetch]

Shiraz

Tod means as apposed to Grizzly Green coming off an exclusive assemble line where it is the only say G1023 Cabinet-saw coming off the line to say Jet, Delta, Bridgewood etc all coming off the same line. I believe he is including all manufactures of all tools Planers, Jointers, Drill press, router bits etc.

[Shiraz Balolia]

Bart - I like your hat, even though it is the old logo!
The G1023 is made in a factory that only supplies us.

[tod evans]

Shiraz, sorry about my eastern dyslexia i would hope that the taiwan-china mention would have made clear my question.....but i`ll rephrase; do you know which manufacturers use the same factories overseas to have their machinery built? same question regarding cutters, router/shaper and saw blades? if you do know would you share that information with the rest of us? you have posted in the past that your products are manufactured by the same firm that powermatic uses, and it is common knowlegde that co-matic manufactures the feeders that are painted so many different colors,(and priced accordingly) so please enlighten the masses here as to the true origin of their beloved colors, no matter the color. i honestly believe that more than a few eyes will be opened to the marketing genius of some of the most popular equipment purchased by american woodworkers. thanks, tod

[Corey Hallagan]

My recollection is that several of the factories that may make Grizzly products are also making other brand name equipment. I would think it would go much deeper than the paint color or the sheet metal. Each manufacturer's run would be specific to there component requests that make up each unit, such as the motor, handles, bearings etc. I would think you would be hard pressed to say that a Delta contractors saw that came off the line last week is the same saw that came off this week in Grizzly green or Powermatic Gold. Even the degree of quality control is at the direction of the company ordering the product.

Corey

[Matt Meiser]

I think maybe Shiraz was hinting that if you ask specifically if a certain Grizzly product was made in the same factory as product X, he would answer. I would guess that they source a lot of products from a lot of different suppliers and he couldn't make a blanket statement.

Also I agree with Corey. Just because three manufacturer's products come from the same factory, or perhaps even the same line doesn't mean they are identical. For example, it is pretty obvious that my Yorkcraft jointer is made from most of the same parts as a Delta. However the Delta ships with a better power switch, while mine incorporates a mobile base feature unavailable from Delta. Both rub @$#$%^&^ red paint from the guard onto the workpiece equally well!

Disclaimer: I don't own a Grizzly machine, but I would have purchased my jointer from them if I couldn't have gotten the G0586 in the time I wanted it and my planer if I hadn't found a great deal on a comparable Delta locally.

[tod evans]

cory, you are probably correct, but my question was multifacited, i not only asked about machinery but cutters, what started this thread was the fact that when i ordered some router bits from woodline a large percentage came with the cmt logo clearly stamped on their shank. hence my phrase different colors with corresponding prices. further if a fellow where to place say 15 inch planers side by side in different colors and do a real world analysis of each machine what would a person really be getting for their money other than a different color of paint? seeing as we are lucky enough to have Shiraz on this forum and seeing as he is well versed in the going-ons overseas i think it would be very educational for us all to see who is pulling the wool over our collective eyes with clever advertising and who is actually a straight shooter. obviously any other importer who would care to address this question is welcome to jump in but so far Shiraz seems to be the only one to step forward??? tod

[tod evans]

i would like to invite the spokesman for wmh tool group and also the spokesman for delta/dewalt/portercable to step up to the table and enter this discussion as Shiraz has. see ya`ll tomorrow, tod
oh-yeah and all of the collective bit and blade importers:)

[Richard Wolf]

Tod, It's my $.02, but I think you are crossing a line asking Shiraz about his business. Plus It is probibly a breech of confidence for him to disclose information that he may be privy to about other manufactures. I hope you are not making him uncomfortable.

Richard

[Corey Hallagan]

I think router bits tend to be a little bit different animal from what Pat Warner has said. Many of the catalog vendors such as CMT, MLCS, Eagle America etc. may manufacture their own yet some bits in there own catalog they have others produce for them. Not sure what that is but I expect it is the equipment required for certain items etc. All about the $$ I expect and cost effectiveness.

Corey

[Kevin Murdock]

seeing as we are lucky enough to have Shiraz on this forum and seeing as he is well versed in the going-ons overseas i think it would be very educational for us all to see who is pulling the wool over our collective eyes with clever advertising and who is actually a straight shooter.

Tod,

The following is said totally tounge in cheek. :p

If Colonel Sanders was a forum member, I don't think that he'd give out the secret blend of 11 herbs and spices. :D

I'm sure we're actually somewhere between the above and knowing that both GMC and Chevrolet trucks are virtually identical save some badging, but I think that Shiraz may be a bit elusive on giving out complete list of what's made where for a reason.

/Kevin

[Chris Barton]

Me thinks Richard is right. First, I am betting that Shiraz is contractually boud not to disclose certain information. Second, economies of scale mandate that much of this instrumentation is made in the same or a very few factories. The rest is the nuiance of the manufacturer. Powermatic has made a concerted effort of late to draw attention to their brand by trying to address suggestions of upgrades to their preimer products for the past year. Other manufacturers have approached this differently. Inviting a variety of manufacturers to make their postions public to a potentially very large consumer group for no actual cost is absolutely... priceless.

[Barry O'Mahony]

Exactly. Some of what is being asked for may be considered proprietary information. It could affect everything from competitive positioning, to negotiating leverage with the factories.

[Dennis Peacock]

I ain't touchin' this one with a 10 foot pole..!!!!!! :eek:

Truth be known? Everything is made by everybody. Kinda like laptop computers. There's only two major laptop computer manufacturers in the world...many are rebranded to suit the contract signed to make them. Now, I didn't say "all laptops"......I said many....which is not all inclusive.:rolleyes: :)

So, it wouldn't surprise me if Delta, Jet, Grizzly, Woodtek, and others rolled from the same exact line...just painted with different colors and made with different specs, and the appropriate logo and name slapped on them.

To me? If it's a very good machine, and I like it a lot? I don't care where it was made....as long as it "makes" stuff I need/want to make and does the job that I ask of it without fuss.;)

[Brian Jarnell]

This is the only Shiraz I am aware of.

Australia: Australian Shiraz

What is Aussie Shiraz?
Shiraz has been the most widely planted red grape in Australia since the 19th century, when cuttings were brought from Rhone Valley syrah vines in France. Shiraz prospers in many Australian wine-producing regions and the country has at its disposal a healthy amount of old Shiraz vines producing spicy, concentrated wines in the same manner as old vines produce the finest northern Rhone wines.

Penfold’s Grange, made since the 1950s, has garnered a reputation as one of the world’s greatest wines, and has served as a role model for the heights that Shiraz can achieve within Australia. In recent years US consumers have woken up to the greatness of Australian red wines and Shiraz wines in particular. This has driven prices of super premium wines up to and beyond the $100 mark.

[Andy Hoyt]

Competitiveness and uniqueness

A Big Mac in Calais, Maine tastes just like a Big Mac in Fort Bragg, California. And that's the way it should be. However, a Whopper in Calais should be an entirely different experience. And it is.

But to think that the public (that supports all of these power tool companys) are all buying the same damn cheeseburger is infuriating. It's one more example of the homogenization of our society.

Are you guys telling me that you're happy forking over hundreds and thousands of dollars to gray or white or green or even chartreuse knowing full well that what's under the hood is all the same and doesn't matter.

Jeez, I hope not.

Demand quality and excellence; and exercise your right to do so by purchasing uniqueness.

Those that sell on value are wolves. Those that buy on value are sheep.

[Corey Hallagan]

I think that is just the point Andy, they are not all the same under the hood, similar in some cases and much different in others, but not the same. I have a Delta Industrial Contractor saw. In a recent review of contractor saws, the Delta came in last. I have no doubt that several of the units reviewed were in fact made in the same factory, mine very well may have been as well, but I don't know that. But the performance was not the same on all these saws that are suspected of being made in same factory. I am happy with my saw, despite the reviews as I paid 299.00 with a very nice fence but my saw IS underpowered compared to some of the others which had same size motors and I have found that to be true in my own test and the Delta performed much slower. For the list price of 500. or more, I probbly would of opted for another machine, such as the General Internation or a Grizzly, all made in China, but I think I got my money's worth and it does what I need it to do. I just don't believe that everything coming out of China is just one size fits all rebranded machines.
The more I get into buying equipment, the least I rely on brand names anymore. I go with what is working well for others, tried and true. Just my .02
Corey

[Jim Dunn]

Me neither Dennis. I may want to buy from both of these fellows:)

[Shiraz Balolia]

I believe not knowing what is under the hood brings up misconceptions and something that Tod may have been trying to get clarified.

Generally, I try not to divulge what comes from which factory for obvious reasons. Having said that, I have sometimes defended certain posts to make a point. For example, I have stated that our Grizzly widebelt sanders are made in the same factory in Taiwan as the Powermatic widebelt sanders with pretty much the same internal components. I have personally checked these side by side myself. The look on the outside may be a little different and there may be some bells and whistles more or less. The Italian made feed belts on theirs and ours may have a different pattern. Stuff like that. The price difference comes not from better quality, but rather different channels of marketing.

People are free to choose what they want and some choose to pay the $7000 to $9000.00 more for a machine that for all intents and purposes is the same. That is what makes this country great and why so many brands co-exist.

Cory - for the record, our contractor saws are made in Taiwan and not in China. They are made in the same factory that makes the General, but not the Delta. Also, for the record, we have been dealing with that factory for over 20 years.

Brian - There is some pretty good "Shiraz" wine and the credit goes to good Australian grapes.

[Dev Emch]

Tod...
I believe that every company should disclose any information that they think may be of use to the consumer. But how much gets disclosed is up to the corporate management team.

Companies like Freeborn openly publish photos and descriptions of their production process including unique carbide brazing machines invented and built by Freeborn for producing their heads.

Before I signed on the line for my shaper, I obtained color photos of the hoffman plant in Germany. Not only do I know which machine tools they have, I can also tell you the brand of overalls worn by the machinists.

Should you be an old green oliver zealot, then you can visit building #1 which still contains eagle machinery which is the new name for the original oliver machinery company. The following photo is building #1 which gave birth to the vast majority of all olivers.

In general, wooworking machines are not integral to our defense complex in the USA. As a result, the open kamona policy is often the best policy. Its lets the customer know exactly what he is spending his hard earned money on.

[Michael Ballent]

I can say that one of the larger factories over there is Getech or some sort of spelling. They have been around for a long time and they seem to be getting better... as far as which companies they are building for it's hard to say... But I can say that you can tell if the machine most likely came from the same factory when you look at the reviews and look closely at the machines... bolt patterns are the same, castings are the same shape, switches in the same position etc...

[lou sansone]

This is an interesting thread.. I guess the question I would want to ask is one concerning the actual design of the machines. Do the major mfgs actually do the detailed machine design or does the Taiwan factories have a basic design that various companies like Grizzly and Delta tweak for their own purposes. I could understand and accept that the foundry work could all be done at a couple of large plants overseas. I think what people want to know is where does the engineering and improvements come from. Thank you Shiraz for commenting as you have.

[tod evans]

okay guys this is a good start, but only the start! Shiraz since you are the only manufacturer so far to pull up a seat my hat`s off to you! your straight answers so far are appreiciated by me if no one else, thank-you. now back to the original questions; point blank-how many different factories are you aware of that manufacture router bits and shaper cutters in taiwan? second; if i as a consumer where to take the 3hp cabinet saw that is so popular in a multitude of colors and remove the bolt on accessories and electronics would i find any major difference? as has been stated earlier in this thread we are not talking about national defence here simply another widget in various forms of dress so any company who doesn`t want the consumer looking at their source probably has darn good reason for their secrecy???? i will be out most of the day but i would like to ask if any of the members of this forum would place calls to their machinery and cutter vendors who market taiwan/china products and invite them to step up and join. thanks to everyone who has commented and all those who are only reading for the knowledge. tod

[Charles McCracken]

I can only speak for Freud: We manufacture all of our router bits, shaper cutters, saw blades and power tools in our own factories. We even produce our own carbide.

Charles M
Freud America, Inc.

[tod evans]

thank you charles! if you would care to expand on the questions asked i`m sure many would be interested. tod

[Scott Loven]

search alibaba for things like table saw, woodworking tools, router bits, etc. and you will see where a lot of our tools are being made.
http://www.alibaba.com/

[Charles McCracken]

thank you charles! if you would care to expand on the questions asked i`m sure many would be interested. tod

Tod,

I regret that I have no information on the factories in Asia since our factories are all in Western Europe.

Charles M
Freud America, Inc.

[tod evans]

[quote=Andy Hoyt]
Are you guys telling me that you're happy forking over hundreds and thousands of dollars to gray or white or green or even chartreuse knowing full well that what's under the hood is all the same and doesn't matter?

[quote=Shiraz Balolia]People are free to choose what they want and some choose to pay the $7000 to $9000.00 more for a machine that for all intents and purposes is the same. That is what makes this country great and why so many brands co-exist.

i think Andy and Shiraz have gotten to the core of why i started this thread. having been a woodworking tool consumer for close to three decades i have watched the popular brands pack up their foundries and assembly lines, fire their design engineers and turn into advertising agencies. when i first got serious about woodworking/tool buying i became friends with the owner of the local industrial supply house,and he was kind enough to take me under his wing and educate me as to what was a functional design that would live in the real world work enviroment. i spent countless hours in the repair department of his store talking to the repair techs learning why the gears on brand x drill outlived brand y`s 10-1 and why the pump on one compressor would out produce and out live another...well let me tell all of you it has absolutely nothing to do with pretty pictures in magizine adds or slogans on television shows, the "made in usa" lable that is prominately displayed on tons of consumer grade tools is the biggest lawyer induced lie fed to the american public since nixon took the stand. i was told several years ago that the consumer grade cutters we all buy where made by only two different factories overseas, now this was 10-15 years ago but in my experience this is most likely true today. if you guys and girls can tell the difference in the cut or life of a cutter by the paint color and appropriate price then i`m supprised because i can`t. there are lots of us who play the import game whether by choice or necessity of budget, for whatever reason we play it is in our best interest to purchase from a vendor/advertiser who stands behind their sale and prices fairly. i will try to get spokesman for tool/cutter vendors to respond today. tod

[Matt Crew]

As an auto mechanic I can understand why people would think that because two different peices of machinery came off the same line they are the same. This couldn't be less true.
The lines that build a Lexus may be the same that builds a Toyota, but they are not the same car. Some parts interchange, the body lines may look alike, they may even have similar engines, but the quality is much different, as is the price. It's in the parts you can't see that make the difference. Heat treating standards on shafts and bearings for one example.
I would agree that there is rebadged equipement out there. Sometimes the less expencive peice started out to be the same, but didn't meet quality standards set by company A so is sold by company B. I'm not saying this about any particulure manufacturer, I'm not that familure with whats out there in the different peices of equipement. I'm just saying what I am familure with.

[Dan Racette]

Tod, when saying that the made in the usa label has been abused, i would definitely have to agree with you.
' biggest lawyer induced lie fed to the american public'

I remember that Chrysler corporation had the "Born in America, Again" pull at your heartstrings commercial in the 80's. They got away with leading folks to believe that America meant usa, when in fact all the vehicles featured in the commercial were made in Canada. They said it was "north america" that they were really referring to, and they got away with it. I think that was the start. Then GM used "assembled" in the usa. As a comsumer, when I see made in usa I want it to mean that we are putting food on the table for blue collar america, which I grew up in. (paper mill town). That hasn't beent he case in my experience for a while. And unfortunately those who really do that for their workers get blended in with all the big corporate jingle words. There was a great special on frontline about PR advertising and consumerism replayed from 04.

I don't think that Shiraz could ever completely and fully answer your question. Manufacturing and sourcing is so much more complicated these days. In Fact, I believe that most of us here would want the increased accuracy of CNC machining. Just cuz it was CNC machined, doesn't mean good materials, good machinery operations and care, etc. I think that is why communities such as the creek are really important. Then we can get first hand facts. As long as the "no business advertising" policy stays in place we should be golden. Other forums that don't require your real name actually use "plants" that are paid representatives of companies to do reviews that are supposed to be "unbiased". I think that is the "real enemy" right now, if you ask me. Otherwise, I have successfully used "word of mouth" from this site, with great success. I have learned from other's mistakes. I have learned to make my own judgements, and I do get burned. There are just no guarantees.

What Matt said happens at my company. One line that my company manufactured in the past, (I have no idea how it's done now) is manufacture at the same plant as all of our competitors. But the "build" standards differed greatly. Like Matt said, the stuff you can't see.

Well, I have wasted enough of anyones time that read this.

later
dan

[tod evans]

okay, today i sent (e-mail) formal requests for wmh tool group, delta/dewalt etc. and cmt/sommerfield to join in our discussion. i personally spoke to a woodline person and suggested that they jump in with their input. Shiraz i appoligize for whomever took it upon themselves to change the title of this thread. i think you deserve a pat on the back for openly responding on this forum and i sincerely hope you have set a precedance that other manufacturers/importers will follow. i believe that via the knowledge exchanged here both the tool manufacturers and the tool buying public will better understand oneanother and hopefully all will benefit. if anybody has other manufacturers they would like to see speak up and i will either call or write them and request their presence. tod

[Dave Lehnert]

I also look around the metalworking groups on the web. One thing different with that group is they know what factories produce what tools by brand. For example the mini metal lathes that everyone sells. They all mostly “look” the same but ARE NOT made in the same factory. China for the most part do not enforce patent laws of other countries let alone their own. If factory “A” makes a tool that sells well. Factory “B” just buys one to make casting patterns from. So the castings look the same but are not from the same factory. The article I read on the web was not hearsay. The guy went and paid a visit to the factories in China so I would guess he has first hand knowledge on the subject. Even had pics.

[tod evans]

i`d like to start off by appoligizing to Shiraz if in fact i was "treating you unfairly", that was not the intention of this thread by any means. in fact you hit the nail on the head with your comment about how i would like to know the differences "under the hood". i believe your phrase and mine;"different paint" could be juxtaposed? well obviously after a few days have passed we have no contributions from any of the folks i invited....i`m no computer genius so i do not know if they are able to access this thread after the "change"? heck i don`t know if Shiraz is still tuned in? i`m going to interject Lou`s take here because i am unqualified to answer and i think this is a good and relevent question;

"This is an interesting thread.. I guess the question I would want to ask is one concerning the actual design of the machines. Do the major mfgs actually do the detailed machine design or does the Taiwan factories have a basic design that various companies like Grizzly and Delta tweak for their own purposes. I could understand and accept that the foundry work could all be done at a couple of large plants overseas. I think what people want to know is where does the engineering and improvements come from. Thank you Shiraz for commenting as you have."

i would also like to ask for anybodies input on the router bit question i posted earlier;does anyone know the number of sources for asian bits and cutters? and could anyone explain the differences to me? (other than color and price).
in close if ya`ll feel this is a dead and stinking issue with minimal interest please say so and i`ll let it rest? tod