How to production sand Pine faster ?

[Marc Jeske]

I make "Put me in a plain Pine Box" type of basic caskets.

Spending tooo much time sanding pine.

Need ideas to reduce my time.


My product is made of lumberyard SYP #2 S4S 1x6" w pitch set KD to the "19%".

They are probably avg of 15-16% when I work them.

Due to the high MC, I use individual 6" boards, NOT glue ups.

I am mostly needing to remove the grade stamps and minimal, yet present planer ripple.

Currently use 5" RO Bosch $70 sander w Klingspor Blue discs 120 grit.

120 final finish is fine enough for my specific product need,and I use ONLY 120 start to finish.

No pitch loading problems, no disc life complaints.

Remember, my work is "Rustic"

IF... IF it was a viable solution, I could in future spend ? 1k on a used drum or somekinda machine... BUT I am VERY concerned about short belt life w this wood... even though current supplier is apparently set pitch.

Also another issue - Some of my boards have a slight cup that plays well w a 5" medium back pad sander, but will not sand full width on a wide belt w/o multiple passes, so bringing in another complication.


So, how can I speed this up ?

Bigger ? better ? sander ?

Start w 80 grit ? ( silly, but never tried that yet)

Hmmm... just thought maybe I need open coat discs ? duhhh...



Lastly, a separate question - - A technique, or machine, or jig that would sand my edges while also easing "breaking over" the sharp corners ?

I'm thinking one of those inflatable bladder shredded flap sanders on like a Baldor grinder that are used for canoe paddles... but mounted under a long table similar to a jointer.. I would just slide the board through 2 times for the 2 edges.

Going to find and post a few photos that may help.

Thanks all !

Marc412973

[Jim Becker]

Marc, I think the drum or wide-belt type setup is about the only way to do what you need efficiently, but agree that clogging of the abrasive media can always be an issue with sappy wood like pine. Perhaps stearated media will help with that...I don't know. But again, from a purely functional, production standpoint, that's the tool to use. The other option I can think of is a planer with a helical cutter that you can run at a slower feed rate, starting with rough or only mildly surfaced lumber. That would minimize machining marks and for rustic like you want, shouldn't need much sanding at all.

[Mark Hennebury]

You need one of these


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M-3bHLGv8k&t=150s

[Jim Becker]

Wow, that's pretty kewel, Mark!

[Mike Wilkins]

I would not recommend a drum-type sander for use on Pine. I have a Woodfast 25" dual drum sander; as a first use test cut I grabbed a scrap of pine lying nearby and ran it through the machine. I wound up with pitch/gum build-up on the both drums due to the heat generated. Ruined the sandpaper on both drums which required replacement.
I currently have a Hammer 16" jointer/planer machine with the Silent Power cutter head which leaves a very smooth finish, requiring 120 grit sandpaper to start. Maybe consider a different surfacing machine which you could use to take off a small amount to remove the mill marks. Good luck.

[Bruce Page]

I second Mike's comment. I ran some 4x4 pine through my Woodmaster drum sander once. IIRC, I used 100 grit paper that loaded up on the first pass.

[johnny means]

We start sanding everything at 40 grit on a wide belt. Skipping grits is never, ever, ever faster. This is even more important when using an orbital. Why would you want to flatten the surface with anything but the fastest grit possible? Once you've sanded out any marks and defects, every subsequent grit is just a couple of quick passes.

[Zac wingert]

Wow! What the heck is that??

[Marc Jeske]

Yup, that would do it !

Marc

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1229&bih=604&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=2XE1XbXBEa_H5gLew7_gAQ&q=+marunaka+royal+surface&oq=+marunaka+royal+surface&gs_l=img.3...154093.173504..176983...0.0..1.122.42 77.48j3......0....1..gws-wiz-img.ldIG7sgoQvI&ved=&uact=5#imgrc=Tw6riuFjWa5dSM:

[Mark Hennebury]

There are several companies that make supersurfacers; Marunaka, Shinx, Ryobi, Marunaka, Hitachi...
Supersurfacers are made in several different styles and sizes. one way feed, auto return, programmable, top cut, bottom cut, top & bottom, even right angle cutting.

If you keep your eye out you may be lucky enough to get an old Makita or Hitachi from the 80's cheap. They are small machines and run on standard 110 volt single phase.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VvIfIsFXUU



Yup, that would do it !

Marc

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1229&bih=604&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=2XE1XbXBEa_H5gLew7_gAQ&q=+marunaka+royal+surface&oq=+marunaka+royal+surface&gs_l=img.3...154093.173504..176983...0.0..1.122.42 77.48j3......0....1..gws-wiz-img.ldIG7sgoQvI&ved=&uact=5#imgrc=Tw6riuFjWa5dSM:

[Prashun Patel]

How about a simple planer?

[Carl Beckett]

How about a simple planer?

I agree, my first inclination was if a decent, sharp planer would work. Possibly a shelix head if straight knives are not smooth enough.

[Jim Becker]

Several have mentioned a planer including myself. It would work, but also would require the OP to buy different material than he is sourcing currently which is 4S4 if he wants to maintain the nominal .75" thickness. There are "minimum bites" with most planers to avoid feed roller marks showing. They are truly unsightly!

[Mark Daily]

I have a delta 22-560 thickness planer which leaves a very smooth finish, no ripple marks if set to take a light cut, so no further sanding necessary.

As Jim mentioned, this isn’t an option if final thickness won’t allow for the stock removal.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Short of a drum sander, I wonder if a smoothing plane would actually be a better way. A small plane like a #3 should accommodate a bit of cup/bow without having to spend a bunch of time getting it flat first. Put some camber on the blade and set for a 2 or 3 thousandths cut and you can make pretty quick work of it. Actually, if you are going for rustic, then you can use a more heavily cambered blade and take deeper cuts, the texture left behind is more pleasantly rustic than coarse sanded.

Even if takes the same amount of time, it's much a much more pleasant way to spend shop time than with a respirator, earmuffs, shop vacs wailing, etc.

If you need to stain, it may not make as much sense because a planed finish won't take stain very evenly on pine, so you'll end up with the ROS anyways.

[Mel Fulks]

At least one of the pattern makers supply houses sells a "pitch solvent" that cleans sandpaper. I don't know if it would
disolve the joints on belts. I think I would use 80 grit then 100 ,nothing finer.

[Marc Jeske]

I do not need to maintain full 3/4", so a planer may work.

Do not have one

Robert - Agreed, still need to sand after planing.

No problem to sand a bit, just wanting to reduce the time spent doing it.

[peter gagliardi]

For the material you describe, it seems the best and simplest answer is to start with 80 grit.
Also, get a bigger sander- a 6” disc sander has , and sands almost 45% more area as a 5” machine.
The disc sander will be the ideal tool to sand and deal with the less than flat, slightly cupped lumber.
Stay away from a drum or even widebelt type machine, for 2 very important reasons, they work best on perfectly flat lumber, and they work best on hardwoods. The paper will gum and load quickly.
I sand thousands of feet of material a year, and that is what I would recommend and do..
Pine of any kind will load paper quicker.
Klingspor has been a very good value in our production shop for the last 10-12 years.

[Marc Jeske]

For the material you describe, it seems the best and simplest answer is to start with 80 grit.
Also, get a bigger sander- a 6” disc sander has , and sands almost 45% more area as a 5” machine.
The disc sander will be the ideal tool to sand and deal with the less than flat, slightly cupped lumber.
Stay away from a drum or even widebelt type machine, for 2 very important reasons, they work best on perfectly flat lumber, and they work best on hardwoods. The paper will gum and load quickly.
I sand thousands of feet of material a year, and that is what I would recommend and do..
Pine of any kind will load paper quicker.
Klingspor has been a very good value in our production shop for the last 10-12 years.




OK, all makes sense.

I will search Archives... but anyone recommend 6" RO sander ? bang for buck, (green ones not in budget!)

I will call Klingspor and ask for recommendation of paper for Pine.

So I'll get that and start w 80, finish w 120 and see how it goes.

Most pieces I do, do not get spray lacquer... the ones that do I go to 180.

Thanks again all, Marc

[Marc Jeske]

I'm continuing the which sander to buy question in this thread --

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?275715-Best-6-quot-RO-sander-lt-200&p=2940637#post2940637

Marc

[Prashun Patel]

Robert - Agreed, still need to sand after planing.


Um, I urge you to reconsider. You are not finishing, so the planer marks are not as visible as you might think. Also, you do say that this is rustic.

SKIPPING sanding altogether is the best way IMHO to improve your economics of time and money.

A simple bench top planer will pay for itself in time very quickly.

I make a lot of rustic stage props out of 2x4's and planed construction lumber. I never finish it and I rarely notice the planer marks - especially when the cutter head is maintained. The planer marks almost always become evident only after the first/second coats of finish.

[David M Peters]

I am another vote for opting for getting a planer and only sanding when strictly necessary. My helical head jointer/planer does a great job on SYP material.

The time saved on messing around with hand-held sanders would pay for a machine fairly quickly.

[Marc Jeske]

I may have a one owner excellent shape Parks available to me... but romance aside I think the best choice may be the current model Dewalt??

If I got that, I would live for awhile w the stock head/ blades and see how they work for me.

Even though my work is rustic in many ways, I do NOT accept ripple on my finished product.

So, I gotta feelin I would still be sanding faces a bit anyway.

Some of my pieces get stained/ laquered...I assume I still need to sand faces to get rid of "Burnishing" and re open cells for staining better ?

Marc

413169413170

[Brian Holcombe]

Hand plane it, takes two seconds per board.

[Marc Jeske]

Mhhhhmmmmm...

Not for me.

Maybe for this Guy.

Marc

2:16 - 2:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs9X-XzFGHI

[Brian Holcombe]

Practice until you can. A #4 plane with a sharp edge and well set chip breaker would alleviate these issues, go much faster than sanding and would produce a very high quality finish.

But you need to put effort in to do so, it’s not an overnight solution. It’s also not impossible or even highly difficult.

Its also very low overhead, costing a couple hundred dollars if you really go wild.

[Marc Jeske]

I really honestly honor what you are saying... but just somehow it has not (Neander and hand work) has never grabbed me by the heart.

I've made "fabbed" some pretty cool stuff in my years... 2000 hrs put into a school bus RV I and Kids basically full timed for like 12 yrs... Boston Whaler bare hull w super cool console, antenna arch, 750 watts searchlights, plus sooo many goodies, 14x 80' quasi timber frame pergola, two full sets NICE kitch cabs, "Industrial" from scratch balcony rails and staircase, etc.

All turned out pretty good, but lotsaaa hours being fussy.

Allota design, "multi media" wood, AL, Fiberglass, compound curves,

But somehow the hand work of wood never grabbed my heart.

But seriously I do honor those skills.

Marc

[Jim Becker]

Marc, I will say that with my frequent interactions with Brian as of late, I actually do pull out my hand planes more frequently than I ever did because he's reinforced their value to me...and the surface can be amazing with only a little effort. But I can appreciate your position relative to working full boards. You're going to have to balance the fact that by using a machine with a rotating cutter head, even with the slowest feed rate you can come up with, you're still going to have tooling marks. It's the nature of the beast. Alleviating them, since that's important to you for your final presentation, is going to require either sanding or hand-planing. No way around that.

[Andrew Joiner]

We discussed this:https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?140934-Hand-planing-Beats-Power-Sanding-in-Contest
I later found out the hand planed surfaces had more tearout, but that was acceptable to those "judging".
I think there's a reason most production shops use power tools. My own tests with hand planing and scraping prove they have minimal use in my work.

[Mark Hennebury]

If you are interested in a high end, crystal clear, clean finish, done fast, without tearout. in a wide range of woods, even curly and birdseye maple, get a supersurfacer, if you want it done really fast get a double one that cuts the top and bottom surface in one pass.

413192[413193413194413195413197413198413199

QUOTE=Andrew Joiner;2941158]We discussed this:https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?140934-Hand-planing-Beats-Power-Sanding-in-Contest
I later found out the hand planed surfaces had more tearout, but that was acceptable to those "judging".
I think there's a reason most production shops use power tools. My own tests with hand planing and scraping prove they have minimal use in my work.[/QUOTE]

[Brian Holcombe]

I will second Mark's experience, I was at Chris Hall's shop a few weeks ago. He took a board, told me he didn't even bother looking at grain direction and sent it through the surfacer. It produces a perfect finish, like a piece of glass, in 2 seconds. You could inspect the shaving it was free of defects which says the surface is free of defects. A shaving with holes will denote tearout or other defect in the surface.

I do the same with hand planes, but of course it takes longer than what a super surfacer can do. Both require an in-depth understanding of the chip breaker to accomplish the goal of a tear out free glassy surface.

Most of the boards I plane are very very easy to plane, two strokes and I have a finished board. Boards with interlock can be a slightly more tedious a process but I plane them as well. Where this kind of thing really comes in handy is when you're working on something wider than the widest wide belt. I took on a project last year that other shops in my area turned down because it was too wide for their equipment. I produced it in a reasonable amount of time and produced a high quality result that was perfectly flat across the 54" wide surface.

I also produce table tops that are much wider than my equipment, its easy to prep them carefully join together then hand plane for a final finish. Must better and faster than sanding to that size or hauling a 300lb slab out of my shop into someone else shop to flatten, then risk damaging it on the return to my shop.

For some table tops I will sand with a DA after hand planing for anything that is going to have a heavy modern finish on it (as opposed to a light varnish). This helps me avoid seeing the minor scallops from a planed surface appearing in the finished result, for some reason modern finishes show that.

[Mark Hennebury]

Thanks for reminding me Brian; I forgot to mention that the new double machines have two blades in the top and two blades in the bottom, so you can do the "rough" and finish cuts in one pass.

Supersurfacers of course have limitations like all machines, but for what they are suited for they do an exceptional job. Widebelt sanders take a lot of horsepower, a lot of electrical supply, large dust collectors, sanding belts. and they make a lot of dust and noise, and give many problems with consistently providing a good finish. Supersurfacers leave a brilliant, crystal clear, glass smooth, flat surface with all of the cells clean and open. The machines don't make any dust, therefore don't require dust collectors and are clean and quiet, and don't require a large electrical supply as they only use standard size shop motors. So for the right application they are worth consideration.

What's not to like?

[Frank Pratt]

I could watch video of those super surfacers in action all day long. That and the Japanese woodworkers with the super wide planes and see through ribbons coming off them.

[Joe Jensen]

I attended the AWFS show last week in Vegas. Lots of machines that look like a drum sander but with nylon brushes. The bristles are impregnated with abrasive. Fairly wide range of grits. From the demos they look ideal for what you want to do. I think after a couple of passes the edges would be broken enough too.

I have a hand held Makita I used with a stainless steel brush to distress wood. It came with a Nylon brush like 80 grit. I think that may be took coarse for your needs. This weekend I'll test it on some construction lumber for you.
https://www.amazon.com/Makita-9741-Wheel-Sander-3500/dp/B000I6QVTA

Edit, I see they make a 100 grit and 240 grit nylon brushes for it too.
https://www.amazon.com/Makita-794383-5-Nylon-Brush-Wheel/dp/B00080BZC4/ref=sr_1_9?keywords=makita+wheel+brush&qid=1564155152&s=hi&sr=1-9

[Marc Jeske]

Joe - Thank you... yes, I have seen the abrasive rotary brushes machines.

Very spendy up w wide belts.

I will say I am looking into the large flap sander brush backed head (s) and making a basic manual feed dedicated little one myself.

There's a handful of mfgrs w like 4" w x 10" dia heads at around $200each, so $400 gives me 8" to easily do my 5 1/2" w boards.

Yes, they will soften the edges and would be perfect... assuming decent abrasive life w/o loading.

Marc

[Bill Dindner]

Personally, when I’m making a more rustic project, I run the boards through my Helical Head planet with a very light pass, then go straight to 180 grit. Spray on some Lacquer or Wipe I’m Poly and it looks quite good. I think a Helical Head Planer will get you where you need to be much Faster.

[Marc Jeske]

Will a current model Dewalt planer w standard head slow down enough to almost eliminate planer ripple ?

Marc

[Marc Jeske]

Joe - I am interested what the Makita will do using the stainless brush... interesting if it would efficiently remove mill ripple and grading stamp.

The fact that it will give 3D grain may be in fact acceptable for my needs.

Just wonder if it would leave a "hairy" surface.

I will "contribute" shortly to be able to view images.

Gonna go check Youtube for the Mak and PC machine abilities.

IIRC the Makita is better than the PC.

Marc