Moxon vise/bench design phase

[Carl Beckett]

I am in the planning stage. I like most of what is described in this post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMpqhpgxzPE

But some questions for those using the moxon vise: Some I have seen use a rabbet on the clamping side of the jaws. This allows the use of a router to remove waste by letting the router ride on top. For those of you who have done this, do you use it a lot? Any downside when NOT using the router (due to the piece being clamped lower from the actual edge)? I was wondering if the same could be accomplished by simply putting a shorter spacer board next to the workpiece before clamping. Perhaps this could be one dedicated to be put on/off.

And what keeps the top surfaces of the jaws aligned/coplanar? The video used some guide blocks around the screws. That doesnt seem overly precise. (I need to go study how a traditional twin screw vise is aligned - separate guide rails? via the OD of the screw?). If doing anything located to the top surface, this needs to be flat and in plane.

What depth is needed? Many of the kits have relatively short screws - 8", and the handles screw on so the screw protrudes when clamped. Keeping the handles flush to the front and rotating the entire lead screw seemed nicer... But how much clamp capacity is needed? 4" enough??

Any other recommendations to consider?

[Bill Carey]

I agree about the protruding screws. I bought 18" screws with rear plates I could attach and the screw sticks out the back.

You might want to check out this current thread:
Moxon vise design "review"?

[Carl Beckett]

Thanks Bill, I did read that one. There are a lot of posts on the topic, so starting one of my own to go with the build process. Will add updates as I go.

[Bill Carey]

Look forward to seeing what you do.

[Carl Beckett]

Well as with most all of my projects, they go slowly as I find bits of time here and there to work in teh shop. But some progress updates:

I grabbed some hardware from another SMC member, without having a full blown 'plan'. It tends to be my nature I have learned, that by having the parts lying around it motivates me to jump on a project that if I had to wait for the detailed plans to finish it would mean an even bigger delay.

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And dug around for scraps. Misc 8/4 of wood species that I dont even know what one of the boards is. A couple pieces of hard maple/cherry will be the bulk of it. Recon they will do for a 'mini benchtop':
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Cut, ripped, jointed, planed, glued up a top surface, then ran it through the widebelt a couple times and a very suitable worksurface (if not too heavy!)
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And sized up the remaining pieces so all the basic dimensioning is roughed.
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[Carl Beckett]

Then as is often the case for me, the project digressed. Note I have kids (always blame it on kids! :) ). And my two daughters (11 and 13) show an interest in engineering type stuff so I want to encourage and inspire them. Perusing vise designs I ran across the one done with wooden gears to drive the lead screws, and thought that might be fun and would show my daughters an example of building something 'neat' from scratch.

So generated a spur gear profile (lots of gear profile software out there, I wrote my own back in the 80's but these days everything is done for you. Printed it out and carved out a sample gear from Baltic birch. The gear teeth came out pretty decent I thought.
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But when it came time to bore the hole in the middle things didnt go so good. Fact is, my eyes are not what they once were and I didnt get it on center. Doh!! No way will a gear work with that amount of eccentricity...
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So I then wondered, maybe I should just 'print' them. The kids have a 3D printer. Not sure how the material itself will hold up, but back to CAD (I use OnShape and highly recommend it). Added some 'spokes' and a bore and viola!, something that looks like a gear comes out 6 hours later. Note this was 50% fill and they feel pretty stiff and ridgid so I am optimistic. Printed off a set of 5.

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[Carl Beckett]

I had some 1/2" grounded rod laying around so cut some nubs from it as shafts, and went ahead and invested the $4 in some brass bushings. Turned down the end of the lead screw. made a bushing to fit the wheel to the shaft, and cross drilled it for a roll pin to attach.
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And it is coming together something like this:
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[Carl Beckett]

So that gets the front of the vise roughly layed out. For the back I decided to run some Delrin bushings right on the OD of the lead screw itself. I am not sure how it will do but again some pieces laying around so giving it a try:
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Then the printed gears worked well enough... back to CAD an layed out a holder for the nut. Note as an after thought, I have since decided I should have made this circular in layout so that I can simply tighten it up/adjust it by turning it before cinching it down with screws. I will probably modify it by the time am done, or maybe not. This one took about 15 mins to build on CAD then wait 3 hours for the print and it seems pretty decent.
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And that is where I am at, coming into the home stretch. Going to put some benchdogs on the top. I have yet to be able to test the smoothness of operation so verdict is still out on that.. if anything, it is all 'too tight' since I used proper bearings and bushings. As strange as that sounds, I find sometimes a little slop is needed for smooth operation. but we will see....

[Carl Beckett]

Then in parallel with all this, finished up a couch frame I was making to match a morris chair project I did a while back. Will update that once the fabric is done but the frame went together smoothly (amazing how much faster things do when you have done it once!)
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[Bill Carey]

Looking good Carl - looking forward to pics of the final build. Are you putting clamps on the table top? And are you putting a signature ying/yang symbol in the table top? That would be cool. :D

Having a 3d printer looks like a pretty handy thing to have sitting around. How long do you think those gears will last?

[Rich Aldrich]

What is the size of the Moxon bench vise

[Derek Cohen]

Some I have seen use a rabbet on the clamping side of the jaws. This allows the use of a router to remove waste by letting the router ride on top.

Carl, I would not do this since it removes the support/backing for the board. This will become apparent when sawing tails or pins. I have used a trim router to remove socket waste, but do not rely on the Moxon to support the router. It is an interesting idea to build it in, but not this way. My immediate thought is that I would be more inclined to turn the board around and rebate the chop for clearance.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Carl Beckett]

What is the size of the Moxon bench vise

Roughly 24wd x 20dp

[Carl Beckett]

Carl, I would not do this since it removes the support/backing for the board. This will become apparent when sawing tails or pins. I have used a trim router to remove socket waste, but do not rely on the Moxon to support the router. It is an interesting idea to build it in, but not this way. My immediate thought is that I would be more inclined to turn the board around and rebate the chop for clearance.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I read some of your previous posts on this Derek, and you convinced me...

Thanks for flagging.

[Derek Cohen]

Carl, I am interested in the possibility of using the Moxon to hold a board and rout out waste with a trim router (I am about to build a new Moxon vise) - I have an idea ...

https://i.postimg.cc/tR1H57KN/Moxon-Design.jpg

In this design, the front chop has a rebate. As the chop is set up in the design above, there is full support on both sides of the board when sawing. Now reverse the chop, and the rebate on the outside becomes a rebate on the inside, and this provides space for the router bit to clear the pin board.

At the rear of the vise is a hinged spacer. This has three purposes; firstly, it lifts the tail board above the chop, which would be cut up by a knife when transferring marks if coplanar. Secondly, it is easier to align tail and pin boards if there is space around them (which is why I dislike the designs which have a continuous shelf at the rear of the vise. Thirdly, the spacer becomes a ledge to which one can attach clamps (if needed).

Most of these ideas (the exception being the rebate in the chop) I have been testing for at least 10 years, in which time I have hand cut thousands of dovetails.

What do you think?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bill Carey]

..............In this design, the front chop has a rebate. As the chop is set up in the design above, there is full support on both sides of the board when sawing. Now reverse the chop, and the rebate on the outside becomes a rebate on the inside, and this provides space for the router bit to clear the pin board............Derek

Hey Derek - I like your idea of a rebate for routing and will probably steal it. Thx. Reversing the chop seems like it might be a pain in the arse to do, however, so what about some strong magnets - at the ends away from any saw work - that would hold a piece to fill the rebate when sawing and it could then be removed for routing. This would have the added advantage of it being a "disposable" piece that might get marked up with the knife and then can be easily replaced.

[Carl Beckett]

Carl, I am interested in the possibility of using the Moxon to hold a board and rout out waste with a trim router (I am about to build a new Moxon vise) - I have an idea ...

https://i.postimg.cc/tR1H57KN/Moxon-Design.jpg

In this design, the front chop has a rebate. As the chop is set up in the design above, there is full support on both sides of the board when sawing. Now reverse the chop, and the rebate on the outside becomes a rebate on the inside, and this provides space for the router bit to clear the pin board.

At the rear of the vise is a hinged spacer. This has three purposes; firstly, it lifts the tail board above the chop, which would be cut up by a knife when transferring marks if coplanar. Secondly, it is easier to align tail and pin boards if there is space around them (which is why I dislike the designs which have a continuous shelf at the rear of the vise. Thirdly, the spacer becomes a ledge to which one can attach clamps (if needed).

Most of these ideas (the exception being the rebate in the chop) I have been testing for at least 10 years, in which time I have hand cut thousands of dovetails.

What do you think?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Sorry for such a delay Derek, I have been traveling for some time.

I think you have cut a lot more dovetails than I have, but I dont like needing to flip the chop. Instead I think I would just use an extra spacer board and bump it up or down as needed. Getting the tail board above the chop... I will have to use this a bit to understand, but do have concerns of marring. Perhaps again a spacer board.

The larger bench type surface on the top we will see, but I am expecting to use hold downs and dogs as needed (plus, it becomes a portable workbench). Am hoping to finish this off before long and will post a pic or two.

[Derek Cohen]

Carl, the delay was worthwhile. I thought about this some more, and eventually came up with a design for routing half-blind sockets. It needs a very simple set up, separate from, but usable with a Moxon. I posted this on the power forum, so search out the thread below.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Carl Beckett]

And a little more progress.

Went ahead and cut dados for the legs, both into the top and into the back of the jaw. And made a little extension feature that allows a clamp to my workbench on the back.

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Drilled some holes, and fastened the jaw to the top.

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Made a little knob, just stuck it on with socket head cap screw for now.

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And the functional bits are done. Turning the one side runs the chop in/out in unison with the other side. So it seems to work. The gears are not precision/smooth, but I am expecting it to loosen up just a bit as it gets used. Again no idea how this material will do with time, it tends to melt and get gummy when cut (low melt temp and relatively soft), but gear teeth 'in theory' are not sliding (they roll off each other, but do have high hertz contact stresss). So a big experiment and was relatively simple/quick to build. (remember, 'In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. But 'in practice', there is.....)

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Given there will be chips and sawdust flying around, I am going to put a clear cover over the gears and call it good. Already the kids are asking if they can use it (and take it into the craft room to use). So I may never get to use it... :)

I think the best part of this whole project was my youngest daughter (11) spent time in the shop while I was there, working on her own projects (some boxes with shelves on them....). She had a notebook and drawings and measurements and a plan in mind for them - which I didnt ask, she likes doing her own thing without my inputs. I just cut where she told me to and helped with the staple gun, she did the rest. (and then she asked if she could have the leftover gear rejects.... of course!)

Will post a final final pic once final....

[Carl Beckett]

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It is done. Slathered a layer of BLO on it, looks pretty good for misc wood pieces I had laying around. Gear action works and tightened evenly on both sides. Managed to break a gear while 'assembling' with a hammer... :rolleyes: But just printed another one and carry on.

Am going to make a shelf to slide it under the benchtop when not in use. If my kids let me use it that is, they have a long list of projects to do including school desks, am encouraging every project.

It clamps nicely to the benchtop and registers on a rabbet on the lower front lip. So is pretty sturdy for whacking on. Have some stubby benchdogs I will use with it (if needed), and some holddowns but not sure how those will work with a relatively thinner benchtop.

Printed parts work pretty well. In fact, I might print out some drawer organizers to hold my chisels... (long overdue to organize the chisel drawer).

[Carl Beckett]

I remade the nut block, so it was more circular. This way I can rotate it and squeeze it down that last bit on one side to be sure both screws pull tight. (this was a clearance test, the older square one is still in place).

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Then this weekend tried it out. I have to say:

1) The gears are loosening up and its running smooth enough. Being able to crank the jaws in/out quickly by turning one handle does make it more pleasurable to use (and kind fun at the same time).

2) Getting work up closer to my eyes is a huge help! So this is going to get used more than I first thought even. I had a little light that I was using on my bandsaw, but it is going to get repurposed for this bench.

3) In addition to cutting dovetails (plenty more of those to cut), I used the bench dogs already for cutting the hinge mortices on this little tic tac toe box my youngest made for a friend (her box came out great!). Pic of her putting that first finish on the raw wood, which she claimed was 'amazingly satisfying'. I agree.


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Plenty more dovetails to cut, current project is about 20 dovetailed drawers plus some other parts.

[Carl Beckett]

Spent all day chopping half blind dovetails (20 drawers, various figured woods). Turns out I spent ALL this time using the workbench feature of this moxon vice. These were relatively small drawers about 7" across, and having the height raised up to better posture helped my back tremendously. Also, getting things closer to my eyes helped my vision. Using hold downs and stops was useful.

So far I put this unit on the end of my workbench and it hasnt come off since.

The workbench feature, and getting it elevated, has turned out to be at least as useful as the vice portion of this project.

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[Bill Carey]

Very nice build, Carl. I agree with what you say about getting raised up for better vision and less back pain. What are the dimension of the top? (I re-read the posts but didn't see it) I'm finishing up several projects and a real moxon is next on the hit parade. I like the idea of the top being substantial enough for dog holes, so I'll incorporate that, and the chop will be an experimental piece that incorporates a spacer held by magnets that I can remove to use a router to clean up the dovetails. Can't tell from the pics but are you putting grupper on the faces? And I love the gear box - you should market it as a kit.

[David Eisenhauer]

You nailed it Carl - your back and eyes appreciate a Moxon.

[Derek Cohen]

While I posted this on a thread earlier, some may visit here and be interested in the Moxon design I developed over several years.

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/TheLastMoxon.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/TheLastMoxon_html_7dc7c35.jpg

The other area of interest was the ability to use a router to remove waste from sockets. This is the jig I came up with ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/PowerRemovingWaste.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/PowerRemovingWaste_html_m6e35c610.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Carl Beckett]

A beautiful piece Derek, no doubt about it!!


While I posted this on a thread earlier, some may visit here and be interested in the Moxon design I developed over several years.

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/TheLastMoxon.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/TheLastMoxon_html_7dc7c35.jpg

The other area of interest was the ability to use a router to remove waste from sockets. This is the jig I came up with ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/PowerRemovingWaste.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/PowerRemovingWaste_html_m6e35c610.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Carl Beckett]

Very nice build, Carl. I agree with what you say about getting raised up for better vision and less back pain. What are the dimension of the top? (I re-read the posts but didn't see it) I'm finishing up several projects and a real moxon is next on the hit parade. I like the idea of the top being substantial enough for dog holes, so I'll incorporate that, and the chop will be an experimental piece that incorporates a spacer held by magnets that I can remove to use a router to clean up the dovetails. Can't tell from the pics but are you putting grupper on the faces? And I love the gear box - you should market it as a kit.


The top is about... yay wide... by ... yay deep.... ;) Sorry, but that is about the design approach. It came out at about 26" wide, x 20 deep. I wanted to leave room for the back feet to clamp on the back edge of my workbench (so it clamps both front and back, but dont really know if needed).

I did waste out those pins using the battery powered router. I simply clamped the piece down with a holdfast then free handed it. The smaller trim router worked fine, but it wouldnt be all bad to have more support surrounding everything. I could also have clamped them down with the dogs (or a combo of both dogs and holdfast).

The faces are unlined, but would benefit from it. Will add that to the do list for some day. And it could use a tool holder along the side to slide some chisels/saw into when not needed. Right now I find myself slipping them into the dog holes. Oh, and might move my small clip on light from the bandsaw to this table (or better yet, just get another).

As for a gear kit, am happy to share CAD files with anyone that wants them. It definitely complicated the build, but I get satisfaction each time I run the vise with one hand. The original motivation was to inspire my kids, and they get a kick out of it so mission accomplished (but I am not likely to let them have this one any time soon, turned out more useful than expected).

[Bill Carey]

The top is about... yay wide... by ... yay deep.... ;)

So we went to the same design school!!

I like the size - I have a spot I can dedicate to it (90% of the time) so a big moxon footprint works for me. And Derek, I like your router base. Thanks for the link to the drawing.