Seen at Menard's?

[steven c newman]

In addition to the Irwin/Marples chisels.......they have the Irwin/ Record No. 4 smooth plane.....$20?

i looked it over, wasn't really in need of one....Lever cap uses a brass thumbscrew, instead. Set it back on the shelf....and left the aisle...

Anyone see one of these?

[Bruce Haugen]

No, but I’ll go look tomorrow. I mean, how bad can it be for $20? :eek:

[Tom Trees]

Not sure about the Bailey pattern planes, but stay away from the no.60 1/2's, unless you like learning to sort out the Azimuth error, and making the movable mouth parallel with the sole.
I failed to do this properly with two no.60 1/2's, but could probably sort it by now.

My mistake was mainly down to mindless lapping of the sole, thinking just rubbing it very carefully on a surface plate with taut sandpaper, and keeping the abrasive clean, would make a surface flat.
What a numpty I was, looking for an even scratch pattern across the surface.
This wont work without hollowing the sole out first.
If you don't believe me, watch anyone on youtube doing this approach, what they don't show you, is the test at the end with feelers.
Doing this will produce a convex surface with an even scratch pattern.
Surprising how many tutorials are out there from all the top guru's doing it wrong!



And if you wish to file the bed, to sort out the Azimuth error, magic marker the entire surface, and stay away from the very end/rear of the bed...
If you take too much off the rear of the bed, the plane iron won't sit tight at the mouth, where it needs to be, and will have a gap between the iron, and the mouth.
Use Bill Carters blunt chisel technique, with a cheapo chisel.

You live, you learn, I have become a better craftsperson because of my hard learned lessons.

Tom

[Jim Koepke]

You live, you learn, I have become a better craftsperson because of my hard learned lessons.

If a person doesn't learn from their mistakes, chances are they will never learn anything.

jtk

[steven c newman]

It is still sitting there, on the shelf...last I looked...was in the store for 1 x 6s for drawer sides...and a box or two of screws...

I also passed on another "No. 4" plane shaped object, this morning...also $20....

i did spend $2 today...
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Might take a while, to sharpen....seen too many paint cans?
Turned down a LOT of tools, this morning.....self-control..or...lack of room? Or..that I already had one in the shop?

[Bruce Haugen]

I went to check it out. If you know what you’re doing, the $20 price tag isn’t out of line. That being said,the casting looks as if it was sanded with a 40 grit belt, all the way around, very rough. The bottom is, my guess, about 15-20 thou from flat, though a lot of that is the little heel thing that’s sticking way down. Some time on a 120 grit belt on a glass plate would help a lot. There was a little backlash in the adjustment mechanism, but not out of line. Brass adjustment nut, nice touch. Plastic tote and knob. The blade could use some serious sharpening, looking like it was rough ground and let be. It is definitely not ready to go right from the box. And there’s cosmoline on everything. A couple hours by someone who knows how to set up a plane and it might be a passable user.

All in all, my type 9 Stanley with a Hock blade is better.

[Gary Ragatz]

On their web site, the price is $16.39, and they're doing one of their 11% mail-in rebate deals, so it's $14.59 before sales tax. At that price point, it's almost a disposable. Says it's a clearance item. Don't know for sure if they would honor the lower price at your local stores, but I would think so.

If you're looking for a new No. 4 and don't want to pay Veritas or LN prices, I've been pleased with the Stanley Sweetheart No. 4 Home Depot sells for ~ $90.

[Tom Trees]

If a person doesn't learn from their mistakes, chances are they will never learn anything.

jtk

Agreed, but I am annoyed that there is not a tutorial anywhere, paid or free, which shows the correct procedure on how to lap a plane correctly, but umpteen videos with
all the big names in woodworking, and they're doing it wrong.

I could have learned by watching a video if one existed, rather than messing a few planes up, and having to do much work to fix.
I had to figure out how to lap them correctly on my own!

I won't get into the quick way, for fear of someone overdoing it, so here is the slow correct way, as follows, because it is not mentioned anywhere.
There is however a luthier that shows the quick correct way, but I fear that someone might wreck their plane by scraping, he knows his onions.


Producing a flat surface by means of lapping with abrasives, involves having a surface plate, abrasives, a marker, some feeler gauges or what have you, and another flat surface to check tolerance.
I use some self adhesive fine sandpaper, that is less than the width, and length of the plane your going to flatten.

First check the plane on the surface plate, which has the blade retracted and tensioned as you would when in use, see where the high spots are, you may need to take the high spots off however you like, won't tell you my way which is risky for the beginner, but you could just get a wee block with more self adhesive abrasive and work on the very high spots


I buy sandpaper off the roll, or in 5 metre lengths, and cut it in half lengthways,
I buy a few grits, and work through them.
Cover the entire surface with magic marker
I can lay the abrasive which is the same length and width as the stuck down paper, and proceed to hollow out the plane.

The abrasive stays put, on top of the other stuck down abrasive.
Never touching the perimeter of the plane, so the edges stays whatever flavour you like.
Check across the width of your plane regularly with a ruler or a try square blade, you should see no light, but the marker ink is still on the edges.
Use your own judgement on when to switch to a finer abrasive, saying that, its probably safest to start with a fine grit, and see how things are in the first place.
Once you have hollowed out the middle, you only need just a few swipes of full width abrasive to finish it off.
Really, just a few swipes is all you need


You will find this a lot quicker than chasing your tail producing a convex surface, like all the pro's demonstrate.


Have fun
Tom

[steven c newman]

I have a pair of Millers Falls No. 9 smooth planes ( same size as a Stanley #4) and a pair of Stanley #4 smooth planes...

Other than the plastic handles, and the depth adjuster colours.....it looks a lot like the one Lowes tries to sell..a Kobalt....

Seen a #4 while out on the Yard Sale Trail, today....also $20...may go back tomorrow, and see how much the price has dropped....looked about like the one H-F sells..there was even the block plane thingy sitting beside it....Hmmmm...

[Bruce Haugen]

The woodworking club I’ve joined has no appreciation for hand tools. There is a HF smoother in the cabinet. Gotta say, the Menards/Irwin/Record model is much better than the HF version of a smoother. That is, unless you can find a Stanley or Miller’s Falls smoother for twice the price.

[Stewie Simpson]

Tom; have you actually tried what you preach.


Not sure about the Bailey pattern planes, but stay away from the no.60 1/2's, unless you like learning to sort out the Azimuth error, and making the movable mouth parallel with the sole.
I failed to do this properly with two no.60 1/2's, but could probably sort it by now.

[Mike Manning]

Not sure about the Bailey pattern planes, but stay away from the no.60 1/2's, unless you like learning to sort out the Azimuth error, and making the movable mouth parallel with the sole.
I failed to do this properly with two no.60 1/2's, but could probably sort it by now.

My mistake was mainly down to mindless lapping of the sole, thinking just rubbing it very carefully on a surface plate with taut sandpaper, and keeping the abrasive clean, would make a surface flat.
What a numpty I was, looking for an even scratch pattern across the surface.
This wont work without hollowing the sole out first.
If you don't believe me, watch anyone on youtube doing this approach, what they don't show you, is the test at the end with feelers.
Doing this will produce a convex surface with an even scratch pattern.
Surprising how many tutorials are out there from all the top guru's doing it wrong!



And if you wish to file the bed, to sort out the Azimuth error, magic marker the entire surface, and stay away from the very end/rear of the bed...
If you take too much off the rear of the bed, the plane iron won't sit tight at the mouth, where it needs to be, and will have a gap between the iron, and the mouth.
Use Bill Carters blunt chisel technique, with a cheapo chisel.

You live, you learn, I have become a better craftsperson because of my hard learned lessons.

Tom


It seems to me this warrants it's own separate thread. I'd love to read the ensuing discussion.

[Stewie Simpson]

There is however a luthier that shows the quick correct way, but I fear that someone might wreck their plane by scraping, he knows his onions.

The following is the Luthier's video that Tom mentions;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvZFOyo63Ks

[Tom Trees]

Tom; have you actually tried what you preach.

Haven't sorted out the Azimuth error on a no.60 1/2 plane, so the iron is ground and honed with a skew to compensate for this, like many do,
but I have learned the lesson of the importance of the rear of the bed, whilst making a Bill Carter style dovetail shoulder plane.

Documented on a uk forum, not sure if I can mention the forums name, but there's only three popular forums, and one starts with uk.
my handle is similar, but not the same, I must do a wee update on that thread now that my workshop is clean.
I was working on a tablesaw and other metalwork for the last while.

That plane which still has the Azimuth error is at the folks place, where I plane cement stained plywood and things like that, for odd jobs, but not fine woodworking

As said I learned the hard way regarding plane soles, and made this mistake on more than those two cheap 60 1/2's.
Embarrassing, that I didn't learn it the second time round, but learned hard, when it finally took the biscuit when lapping a no.8 plane.
These errors become very noticable, and it's a lot of work when you mess one of those up.

At the same time, with the no.60 1/2, you can easily notice the movable shoe not being coplanar with the sole, when its moved to tighten up, or open the mouth.

I'm off to the workshop tonight, because you've goaded me to finish that thread off with some obligatory shavings, as that's the rule in my head
for plane WIP's.
Thanks for the kick up the ar#e Stewie :)
I was sorting big boxes of bolts and screws etc last night, and haven't got stuck into my work since last year.
I was making a Klausz workbench before the halt, and keen to get stuck into it again, but the mess in the workshop was overwhelming.
The Magic tablesaw from Italy needed work to make some more space in there, and now its a lovely colour in Claas green.
I am quite pleased with it, and now I can get back to work on this reclaimed Iroko.

Tom

[justin sherriff]

On their web site, the price is $16.39, and they're doing one of their 11% mail-in rebate deals, so it's $14.59 before sales tax. At that price point, it's almost a disposable. Says it's a clearance item. Don't know for sure if they would honor the lower price at your local stores, but I would think so.

at my menards they have the stanley files moved and on clearance. I did see the planes moved to the same spot but did not look at prices.

[Tom Bussey]

I hate to be the dearer of bad news but take a black marker and mark a piece of oak or hickory the size of the plane you are going to flatten and then see how long it takes to sand out. The old iron doesn't sand as easy it can take days. Yes I know that every one can flatten a plane by lapping. But I also know that according to everyone in the 15th century, the the earth was flat and if one sailed to far they would fall off. Flattening a plane, and falling off the Earth rates right up there with Jack and the Beanstalk.

50 years experience of building jig, fixtures, dies and special machines for industry tells me it is a waist of time and effort and that all you are doing is putting scratches in the metal. There may be a high spot that can come off but theoretically, actually it is not theory but fact that the closer one get to flat the larger the surface that the material has to come off. Tell you what, get a grade 8 bolt about 5 inches long and chuck it up on the threaded potion in a drill press, turn it on about 200 - 300 rpm see how long it takes to sand off .005- .010 under power and then you if you think you can do it, go for it. With all the time and money spent buying materials one will be better off just buying a good plane and forgetting it. Spend you time doing wood working.

And just so you know that it took me three hours or so, using a surface grinder designed to remove metal, with a grinding wheel specially made to grind cast iron to do this.

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Yes, I have heard it all and that I don't know what I am talking about , especially because you want it to be true, but to him that has an ear, let him hear. PT Barnum, from Barnum and Bailey Circus, said there is a sucker born every minute. And the other saying, a fool and his money are soon parted.

50 years of experience says you are wasting your time and money. And I also know you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

On a different note if all you want to do is polish it go for it. A nice looking plane is like a just washed car, they just drive better. It is all perception

[steven c newman]

And, for all of those that follow the myth of a perfectly flat sole on a hand plane......try it on a japanese Kanna plane....then, wonder why it no longer works....

Original post was more a ''For your information" post....IF you don't like said plane, go look elsewhere. I already turned down 2 Record planes, 2 years ago, and now the Irwin/Marples/Record plane....

[Tom Bussey]

You are correct about a myth about a perfectly flat sole. Any plane will cut very well with a sharp blade, that is the real secret.

[steven c newman]

BTW: I stopped back at that one yard sale this morning, to see IF he had lowered the price. $20 was a LOUD NO!.....today, he added the block plane shaped object, but the price was still $20....same plane set you can walk into Harbor freight and spend the same amount on...brand new.....ah..NO....not today....

Seems to be when Record went with the brass thumbscrew cap...quality went downhill, badly. Now...IF you can find the older, lever capped ones...they won't be quite as bad.

[Tom Trees]

You are correct about a myth about a perfectly flat sole. Any plane will cut very well with a sharp blade, that is the real secret.

Not if is so badly out, that you can't take full width thin shavings.

Tom

[Jim Koepke]

You are correct about a myth about a perfectly flat sole. Any plane will cut very well with a sharp blade, that is the real secret.

Some planes will not work well, even with a sharp blade

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?274705-Fixing-a-convex-sole-hand-plane

This plane's sole was convex from toe to heel with the high point being at the mouth.

Anuj was invited to bring this plane to my shop to see if my block of granite with abrasive paper might make things better.

He is now a happy owner of a plane that works well:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?275249-Boards-are-finally-square-and-Stanley-3-is-fixed

You are correct in that the sole does not need to be perfectly flat. Anuj's plane's sole is flat enough to make a fine shaving with no pressure applied to the plane, only using forward motion. It will also make the same shaving with pressure on the tote and knob.

A concave sole will often require the blade to be advanced until it starts to take a shaving. Then the blade will dig into the wood and make a thick shaving or possibly let go only to repeat itself. This was the case with one of my Stanley #60 type block planes purchased at a yard sale for $1:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?123401

This one also had a problem similar to the azimuth problem mentioned by Tom Trees. The bed was a bit higher on one side than the other causing slight a horizontal tilt to the blade. It would start cutting on one side before the other no matter how much lateral adjustment was given to the blade.

If a plane of mine is able to make a shaving of a thickness normally required for its intended use, then it is left as is. It is likely easier to mess up a plane's sole attempting to lap it than it is to make it better. A person needs to know what they are doing and where they want to go when trying to fix an errant plane sole.

Many things in need of doing and doing well, are not simple procedures to be performed without exerting some brain power.

jtk

[steven c newman]

There are some out there....that are Fouled Up Beyond Any Repair.....this coming from a fellow that came fix up an Anant A4 to make very nice shavings...
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But who ever makes that one for Harbor Freight, or Kobalt....haven't a clue as to what a plane is to be. Tried the Kobalt....and returned it...wasn't worth the effort, nor the $39

But, then again. I traded this off for a Millers Falls No. 9...
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Seemed a fair deal? Anant A4 for a Millers Falls No. 9, type 2?