Pec Tools

[Ellen Benkin]

Where can I find "seconds" or "blemished" for Pec tools?

[Ellery Becnel]

https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/
This may help, Ellen.
I have purchased a few items, very satisfied.

Ellery Becnel

[Mike Henderson]

Where can I find "seconds" or "blemished" for Pec tools?

I've bought some on eBay and, surprisingly, Amazon has the 4" double square PEC blem (https://www.amazon.com/Cosmetic-Second-double-machinist-square/dp/B01H5KYEH2/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=pec+double+square+4r+blem&qid=1562521673&s=gateway&sr=8-2). I find that the PEC is smoother in operation than the iGaging double square.

eBay had some sellers that had a wide variety of tools as PEC blems. I bought from Taylor Toolworks on eBay and received a good product.

Mike

[I have Starrett and Mitutoyo tools and, to my hand, the PECs are just as good.]

[Mark e Kessler]

I bought a few on ebay, 2 of the rules got lost in shipping because I am guessing they just throw them into the usps envelope without any other packing and they cut their way out. I tried to contact the seller (I think taytools is reselling their seconds) with no luck. I would not buy from them, the cc company made good on the claim though.

As far as quality if its just for the rule I think its fine, if you are going for a square I would pass, I bought a 12" new on amazon and the 6" second on ebay. They are not near the quality of Starrett, they are still better than that igaging stuff but I had a Starrett for 30 yrs of woodworking and found it a little out of square due to taking the rule in and out so much that it wore the seat, I don't do woodworking full time anymore so I was looking to save a few bucks. In the PEC square the blade will not tighten down enough to my taste, it can slip and worse of all I tend to take the rule out and put it back in a lot and it is a pia to do that without fiddling with the screw every time, I think the screw assembly is just not machined to the level of the Starrett and is missing a few design elements.

So the rules are ok and I would spend the extra on a Starrett square but if thats out of your $$$range then the PEC will have to do - just be aware that the PEC is a pig with lipstick...

[Greg R Bradley]

PEC sells a mid range adjustable square and a higher end adjustable square just as Starrett does. A number of other companies follow the same model. I believe that all the seconds available from HJE are the mid range products. I've never seen a second of the high end products. You are buying a 12" 3 piece combination square second from HJE at $36, while a first is about $95. Their higher end hardened version is about $180. Starrett sells only firsts and is more than PEC for a similar product.
All of the higher end companies are phasing out any of the simple tools such as combination squares and it is getting harder to even find those products.
Buying several PEC seconds of Double Squares and a Combination Square from HJE will get you a very useful assortment of items for very little money. Hard to say if a Starrett Combination Square is worth the cost for woodworking. For the price, I would choose a PEC second and something from Woodpeckers but it really depends on your specific need.
I'm very happy with the PEC seconds in Double Squares and Combination squares and I have a couple machinist chest's with Squares, Calipers, Micrometer, etc. that would easily cost $20K to duplicate.
There is something seriously wrong with Starrett on their lower end products when a $100 Double Square in 16R, aka inch units, has a body that is 25mm wide. ????
Now, their Solid Inspection Squares are a different matter entirely.

[Frederick Skelly]

- just be aware that the PEC is a pig with lipstick...

Just a different viewpoint here. I have adjustable squares in Starrett, PEC, Lee Valley and an i-gaging. I've had the 2 PEC seconds for roughly 5 years.They aren't Starrett, but I didnt pay for Starrett. I haven't had any problem with them. Both have stayed square and work very well. I'd buy more. (I love that Starrett square. I dislike the i-gaging because it's sticky, even after tuning it.)

With that said, I'm a hobbyist and don't use my tools to make a living as Mark does/did - they are not in my hands 12 hrs/day. I also don't take the rule in and out a lot.

FWIW,
Fred

[Mike Henderson]

Just a different viewpoint here. I have adjustable squares in Starrett, PEC, Lee Valley and an i-gaging. I've had the 2 PEC seconds for roughly 5 years.They aren't Starrett, but I didnt pay for Starrett. I haven't had any problem with them. Both have stayed square and work very well. I'd buy more. (I love that Starrett square. I dislike the i-gaging because it's sticky, even after tuning it.)

With that said, I'm a hobbyist and don't use my tools to make a living as Mark does/did - they are not in my hands 12 hrs/day. I also don't take the rule in and out a lot.

FWIW,
Fred

I agree with Fred. I have squares from Mitutoyo, Starrett, PEC, Lee Valley and iGaging. The PECs that I have are as good, to my hand, as the Mitutoyo, Starrett and Lee Valley. The iGaging is definitely not as smooth in operation as the others, no matter what I did to them. The iGaging tools work, and do the job, but not as smoothly. But they don't cost as much.

For woodworking, my opinion is that the PEC blems are excellent tools, and significantly less expensive than the Mitutoyo and Starrett.

Mike

[I have a bunch of iGaging squares because I use them for classes I teach. I certainly couldn't afford to purchase Starrett or Mitutoyo squares for that. If I had discovered the PEC blemns earlier, I'd have purchased those for the classes. I recommend the PECs to my students.]

[Mark e Kessler]

Guess I am in a different camp, I have only ever needed a 12" and a 6" square and have built everything from 200k boardroom tables to cutting boards and never needed anything else, I suppose if you are starting out with nothing then 2 well made tools are expensive but I am replacing a 30year old 6" Starrett and $100 bucks doesn't break the bank especially since the last one lasted 30yrs.

I think the only reason I ended up with Starrett was because it was on the list of recommended tools at the furniture design school I went to, I just find with some hand tools going cheap doesn't do you any good but I can also appreciate someone starting out and needing to be thrifty.

Mark

[andrew whicker]

Guess I am in a different camp, I have only ever needed a 12" and a 6" square and have built everything from 200k boardroom tables to cutting boards and never needed anything else, I suppose if you are starting out with nothing then 2 well made tools are expensive but I am replacing a 30year old 6" Starrett and $100 bucks doesn't break the bank especially since the last one lasted 30yrs.

I think the only reason I ended up with Starrett was because it was on the list of recommended tools at the furniture design school I went to, I just find with some hand tools going cheap doesn't do you any good but I can also appreciate someone starting out and needing to be thrifty.

Mark

Not to hijack this thread, but... how about some photos of this table?

[Patrick Kane]

I have a couple PEC seconds squares from Harry Epstein, and i think they are just fine. I have a few starrett products I bought second hand from retiring machinists that are also great. In my opinion, if you want multiple 4-6" squares for leaving them set at specific dimensions throughout a furniture build, then the PEC seconds are an incredible deal. I remember them being stupidly inexpensive years ago--like $8 for a square. Over 4", its hard to be that far out of square to make a difference, and honestly, as far as i am able to quantify these squares are dead on to the starrett. With that said, I leave machine setup and calibration to the offerings from starrett and woodpeckers.

[Ellen Benkin]

Thanks everyone for all the responses. It looks like eBay is the place to easily find the blemished Pecs. I also agree with most of the responses regarding the quality of different squares. Clearly Starrett is number one in quality and also in cost. Based on my experience, Pec comes in second and is a good choice for daily use. I recently got some iguaging squares and will never buy them again. I hope the scales are accurate but their machining is a joke and they are awkward to adjust.

[Mark e Kessler]

I think this one was closer to 250k... 40' u shape P&G boardroom table, that cost also included the table in the center. If I remember correctly the stainless steel inlay was 20k.
412612


Not to hijack this thread, but... how about some photos of this table?

[Larry Edgerton]

I buy quite a few from Epstien as gifts and have a few around the shop in odd sizes that I need occasionally, and I have no complaints. I also have Starrett and Mitutoyo and have to say I definitely prefer the Mitutoyo combination over everything, it just works better. I use as a depth gauge often and the Starrett is more likely to move and harder to set. But the Mitu was the most expensive so....

[Brian Holcombe]

Mitutoyo is my preference also, in general. I have mainly mitutoyo precision tools with the odd starrett here and there. Mitutoyo seems to retain very high quality on their basic tools in addition of course to their inspection grade tools.

I have a 1st quality PEC square, it's fine for very basic transfer work but not reliably square according to my angle plate.

I believe that if you want to work to a few thousandths (for woodworking) than you have to have tools accurate to a few tenths.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have used this PEC tools square daily for 8 years now, works fine and works neatly for how I use it. Holds OK, but I can push the blade out of position if I bump it.

I decided to check some tools and see what's what, so I'm comparing a used PEC to a vintage Mitutoyo.

Surface Plate - Grade A. No name brand, came with inspection cert. This is smaller than I could use, given my improved tool set, but it will work fine for the purpose of this post. I plan to pick up an 18 x 24 soon enough and so maybe I'll run this test again at that point.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/img_3755.jpg

Camel back, agrees with surface plate. This was recently scraped by a retired Devlieg scraper (he also did the angle plates to follow).

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/img_3756.jpg

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/img_3757.jpg

Angle Plates - agree with one another as confirmed by bright light method (not the exact method used here, I shine a light directly through the parts)

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/img_3758.jpg

Angle plates - agree with grade A Mitutoyo master square - ideally the angle plate should be the same height as the square or the surface plate should be large enough that this could be confirmed. Squares are best checked using the four disc method, but I lack discs large enough to be used in that manner and checking devices to confirm them, so i'm using this method. Given the task at hand I think it's OK.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/img_3759.jpg

Master square to Mitutoyo Square - .002" out at the bottom on 12" blade (.001" per 6"). Checked with feeler gauges

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/img_3760.jpg

Master square to Pec double square - .007" out at the top - 6" blade. Checked with feeler gauges.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/img_3762.jpg