An alternate approach to controlling tear-out.

[Stewie Simpson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDTH1ggAzM

[Frederick Skelly]

Stewie, teach me please because I missed something. Do you think his approach worked so well because he back bevelled the cutting iron, or because he rasped the surface before planing, or both?

Thank you.
Fred

[Stewie Simpson]

Fred; its the use of a back bevel to increase the effective approach angle of the cutting edge (above that being governed by the blades bed).

[Frederick Skelly]

Fred; its the use of a back bevel to increase the effective approach angle of the cutting edge (above that being governed by the blades bed).

Thanks Stewie!

[Stewie Simpson]

its the use of a back bevel to increase the effective approach angle of the cutting edge (above that being governed by the blades bed).

Fred; its an alternate approach I am quite familiar with.

https://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/woodie%20shavings/DSC_0281_zpschnz0tfe.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/woodie%20shavings/DSC_0281_zpschnz0tfe.jpg.html)

https://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/woodie%20shavings/DSC_0284_zpsgwi1dvtt.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/woodie%20shavings/DSC_0284_zpsgwi1dvtt.jpg.html)

https://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/woodie%20shavings/DSC_0283_zpsp32vxxel.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/woodie%20shavings/DSC_0283_zpsp32vxxel.jpg.html)

https://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/woodie%20shavings/DSC_0280_zpswgtrn1ns.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/woodie%20shavings/DSC_0280_zpswgtrn1ns.jpg.html)

https://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/woodie%20shavings/DSC_0279_zpsgllvfvqy.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/woodie%20shavings/DSC_0279_zpsgllvfvqy.jpg.html)

https://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/woodie%20shavings/_DSC0077_zps0dlv4mrq.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/woodie%20shavings/_DSC0077_zps0dlv4mrq.jpg.html)

[Les Groeller]

Stewie, teach me please because I missed something. Do you think his approach worked so well because he back bevelled the cutting iron, or because he rasped the surface before planing, or both?

Thank you.
Fred

using a toothed blade or veneer glue prep blade will do the same thing...reduce tear out on figured wood.

[Stewie Simpson]

using a toothed blade or veneer glue prep blade will do the same thing...reduce tear out on figured wood.

Lee; there are a number of different approaches available to control tear-out;

vs the 1 only approach being offered by the close set cap iron enthusiasts.

https://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/toothed%20surface/DSC_0181_zpsi4hoxmfs.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/toothed%20surface/DSC_0181_zpsi4hoxmfs.jpg.html)

https://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/toothed%20surface/DSC_0182_zpsag7wjazx.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/toothed%20surface/DSC_0182_zpsag7wjazx.jpg.html)

[Les Groeller]

Stevie, are the last two pictures of a (your?) bench top dressed with a toothed blade? The shavings look similar to those created when those tools are used.

[Stewie Simpson]

Lee; yes its my work bench and toothing plane.

[Jim Matthews]

Backbevel achieved with David Charlesworth's "ruler trick"?

[William Fretwell]

Worth having a spare blade or two to do that in Australia with all those wonderful hardwoods you get.
Lovely wooden plane collection Stewie and a nice flat bench to use them on!

[Warren Mickley]

In 1824 an Englishman named Williamson (1793-1881) claimed to have invented the back bevel. What is interesting about his claims is that the double iron was so universal at the time that apparently Williamson himself was unaware that there had ever been high angle bench planes. He got a prize for his invention.

The editor of the Franklin Institute Journal commented that the back bevel was just making the plane into a high angle plane and dismissed the invention as "of no importance whatever". The editor said the double iron had been in use for over forty years.

[Mike Brady]

Put me in the camp using a toothed blade (on difficult woods) before final planing. I'm currently building a Moxon vise from white ash. That wood has so many grain reversals that the finish planing is much easier if preceded by the toothed blade I have in a No. 62 plane. Like Stewie, I tooth my bench top and leave it that way. It is also ash, by the way. I have not tried a back bevel but will give it a go. I have had good success with scrapers and scraper planes instead.

[Frederick Skelly]

In 1824 an Englishman named Williamson (1793-1881) claimed to have invented the back bevel. What is interesting about his claims is that the double iron was so universal at the time that apparently Williamson himself was unaware that there had ever been high angle bench planes. He got a prize for his invention.

The editor of the Franklin Institute Journal commented that the back bevel was just making the plane into a high angle plane and dismissed the invention as "of no importance whatever". The editor said the double iron had been in use for over forty years.

Warren, what do you think Sir? Is the back bevel a better approach, or just an alternate approach to a high angle plane?

[Jim Koepke]

Warren, what do you think Sir? Is the back bevel a better approach, or just an alternate approach to a high angle plane?

Hopefully Warren will reply later. One thought on this could be if one doesn't have a high angle plane, then a back bevel or a secondary high angle bevel on a bevel up plane might be better than rushing out and buying a high angle plane.

There are many approaches to planing difficult wood. Is any one of them better than all the others for every difficult piece of wood?

It might be better if one learns to use as many of the ways as can be found.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

There are four ways to go with high cutting angles.

1. A Bailey style, such as the LN with high angle frog. The highest angle available is 55 degrees. The Veritas Custom plane offers your choice, so it is possible to get a 60 degree frog.

2. Use any plane with a common angle (45 degrees), and add a back bevel. For example, a 15 degree back bevel on a Stanley #4 creates a 60 degree cutting angle.

3. A woodie, such as the HNT Gordon, comes with a 60 degree bed.

4. A bevel up plane, such as a Veritas BU Smoother, which has a 12 degree bed, together with a 50 degree angle on the blade, creates a 62 degree cutting angle.

In my experience, there is a very different feel when using these planes, regardless of their all cutting at the same angle. The wood may not tell the difference in the way the blade cuts, but the hand certainly does.

The Bailey option, whether a high angle frog or a back bevel, feels quite different to either the BU option or the HNT Gordon. The first two have a high centre of effort, while the latter two have a lower centre of effort. Lower centre of effort = less force required to push the blade. This translates to choosing a BU plane over a back bevelled plane for ease of use. Every time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, what do you think Sir? Is the back bevel a better approach, or just an alternate approach to a high angle plane?

There are several approaches to high angle planing:
1) high bed angle with bevel down iron
2) bevel up iron with high bevel angle
3) back bevel on a bevel down plane

The double iron is superior to all of these methods because it is less abusive to the edge of the iron, it is easier to push, and gives a finer surface quality on the timber. High angle gives a surface which is not as clear or as smooth. I have seen some timbers which could not be planed with 60 degree cutting angle; In 45 years I have not seen timbers which could not be planed nicely with a double iron.

I would think that maintaining a back bevel at a specific angle would cause extra time and trouble in sharpening. And I suspect that if the total bevel angle (main bevel plus back bevel" is greater than 30, as is the case with back bevel and bevel up, the edge does not catch the wood as well. So I would suspect that a high bed is best.

I abandoned high angle planing and bevel up planes in 1976.

[Derek Cohen]

Warren, I agree with you that the double iron is superior to the high cutting angle for controlling tear out. No argument. Up until 2012 I was using a high cutting angle for everything, and had been doing so for a long time. Over the next year or two my planing went back-and-forth, mostly siding with a double iron. Since then, the past 5 years, it have been almost completely double iron. Having stated this, there will be many for whom a high cutting angle remains the preference. The fact is that is works well, perhaps not to the nth degree of the double iron, but it works very well for most difficult timbers. The advantage of the cutting angle is that it is much easier to set up than a double iron. Practice makes perfect, but not everyone wants to take the time to learn the skill.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

The advantage of the cutting angle is that it is much easier to set up than a double iron. Practice makes perfect, but not everyone wants to take the time to learn the skill.

This may be the crux of the matter. Setting the chip breaker for optimum performance can be a fiddly task at best. Too close for the thickness of cut and the shavings jam and stall forward motion. Too far back and the chip breaking effect is lost with thin shavings.

For many people resetting and constantly taking their plane apart to adjust the chip breaker until it is just right will be chalked up as something that doesn't work with the ease they expect.

jtk

[steven c newman]

waiting their turns...
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maybe someday, I'll get the hang of using this one...
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maybe.....micron thin shavings are..ok, if you are just showing off...
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But i prefer to get some work done, this is about...3 hours worth...

[Frederick Skelly]

waiting their turns...
412248
maybe someday, I'll get the hang of using this one...

maybe.....micron thin shavings are..ok, if you are just showing off...

But i prefer to get some work done, this is about...3 hours worth...


I missed something. How does this relate to controlling tearout Steve?

[Jim Koepke]

[edited]
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But i prefer to get some work done, this is about...3 hours worth...

Your plane has to be moving pretty slow if that is all you shave off in three hours. :D

When taking off saw marks or truing an edge or face, a heavy shaving is standard.

Final smoothing is when a fine shaving helps to make a piece like glass.

Other than making a reflective surface a fine shaving helps to evaluate the condition of a blade. Also if a plane is not able to make a fine shaving it can be an indication of the plane's sole not being flat.

To stay relevant to the thread, an extremely fine shaving is helpful in the avoidance of tear out. A shaving of ~0.001" isn't going to have the strength to pull out a big divot from the face of the work.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

Backbevel achieved with David Charlesworth's "ruler trick"?

Yes, exactly!

[Derek Cohen]

https://sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Jim Matthews https://sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=2937259#post2937259)
Backbevel achieved with David Charlesworth's "ruler trick"?


Yes, exactly!

Actually ... no. :o

The Ruler Trick (of David Charlesworth) creates a 1/3 degree back bevel. For a high cutting angle, say on a 45 degree frog, a back bevel of 15 degrees is required.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Downside to a back bevel is that it makes a very blunt cutting edge. If my normal edge is 30 degrees, a back beveled edge is 40 degrees easily.

Ive used one on rabbet planes in cranky wood, but not for anything with a double iron.

The double iron is very effective and certainly worth spending the time needed to make use of it.

[Derek Cohen]

Brian, your comments remind me that a 15-degree back bevel is extremely useful when using a common angle plough plane for grooves and beads in interlocked grain. Ideally, one would not use a plough plane in such wood, but it may be unavoidable. Narrow blades will not cause any extra difficulty in pushing the plane.

The other issue is whether a high cutting angle on a smoother creates a poor surface. I recognise that a low cutting angle will leave the better finish, but I would seriously doubt that 98% of woodworkers could tell the difference on planed hardwood even without a finish.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Depends on what one is doing....
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Not all shavings need to be "full width"
412286
Nor do they need to be see-throughs...
Have 2 planes that are single iron, low angle....
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This #62....and a Stanley #60-1/2
Biggest thing is to actually read the directions the grain is going,,,rather than just pushing a plane along regardless of what the grain is.
Chipbreakers on my other planes are set 1mm back, no back bevels, just a single 25 degree main, flat, bevel.
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Millers Falls No. 11. Ash rail was rough sawn, needed smoothed down..
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Raising panels with a hand plane...all 4 edges need a bevel....so, how many passes of gossamer shavings to do this job....and how long? better hurry, as you have 12 such raised panels to do...
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Done, yet?

[Jim Koepke]

Raising panels with a hand plane...all 4 edges need a bevel....so, how many passes of gossamer shavings to do this job....and how long?

Very few and done very quickly. If you would completely read what was stated you might begin to understand only the last few passes are done with a smoothing plane and only when needed/desired. If one wants a 'rustic' feel to their finished piece, then none are required.

jtk

[Tom Trees]

Stephen, it seems from reading your post, you're hinting that the close set cap iron approach is strictly for taking thin shavings?

The double iron excels in this regard, because you can adjust the cap iron to suit whatever timber you're working on.
This includes moderate shavings with a reduced tearout cap iron setting.

Much more efficient than having a heap of spare irons for this, that and the other timber that's inbetween.

Tom

[steven c newman]

hmm, was kind of busy, today...
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As I had 2 of these to do...
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Rebate for the plywood back to sit in...
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Was a busy day....had to cut parts for a few webframes, and then build 5 of them...waiting on glue to cure, now...
412360

BTW: I use that close set chipbreaker in all but 2 bench planes....both have a "scrub plane" camber...

[Mark Hennebury]

Double irons work!

Birdseye Maple, Curly Maple, Baked hard Birdseye Maple. A Variety of random Hardwoods, nice shavings. Supersurfacer*. ( *handplane with a power feeder)


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[Mark Hennebury]

A cheap handplane that works. Easy to adjust the blade depth, ( smack with a hammer) easy to adjust the lateral alignment ( smack with a hammer) easy to adjust the chipbreaker to blade edge setting ( smack with a hammer)

Did i mention ZERO backlash.

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[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mark

How are you?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Interesting how a thread about high cutting angles morphs into a defence of the double iron! :rolleyes:

High cutting angles and the double iron can be complimentary - there are areas where a high cutting angle is very relevant. Where a double iron cannot go. As I pointed out earlier, ploughing and beading are two examples. Another is making mouldings in less-than-ideal timber.

Perhaps the original topic has value?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Hennebury]

Derek,

Back bevels, high bed angles, close throat openings and chipbreakers work to help prevent tearout and leave a fine finished surface.

As far as chipbreakers, I am just stating the facts as i know them, for those that don't know.

I don't know anything about high bed angle planes, as i have never owned or used one. I have experimented with back bevels, and had some success. Mostly i have used standard planes with chipbreakers and i know that they work. I have used supersurfacers with lower bed angles and chipbreakers, and i know that they work, So i never miss an opportunity to let people know that they work, as many still don't know. Usually in these threads questions will always come up about if they work at all, how well they work, and do they work in difficult woods.
Chipbreakers work to help control tearout and can be adjusted for heavy or light shavings, and work in a a hard and softwood, they work to prevent tearout in knarly woods and when planing against the grain.

250 years after the chipbreaker was invented and it still needs defending and explaining, so those of us who know have a duty to inform those that don't. Not looking for an argument, not putting down high bed angles or back bevels, just clearly stating the facts and presenting the proof.

Tight throat opening and a heavy shaving, and a video of a blade with zero clearance (relief angle) blade to sole.

Born to Tinker.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6ltxYbJX5c






Interesting how a thread about high cutting angles morphs into a defence of the double iron! :rolleyes:

High cutting angles and the double iron can be complimentary - there are areas where a high cutting angle is very relevant. Where a double iron cannot go. As I pointed out earlier, ploughing and beading are two examples. Another is making mouldings in less-than-ideal timber.

Perhaps the original topic has value?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

Back bevels, high bed angles, close throat openings and chipbreakers work to help prevent tearout and leave a fine finished surface.

As far as chipbreakers, I am just stating the facts as i know them, for those that don't know.

I don't know anything about high bed angle planes, as i have never owned or used one. I have experimented with back bevels, and had some success. Mostly i have used standard planes with chipbreakers and i know that they work. I have used supersurfacers with lower bed angles and chipbreakers, and i know that they work, So i never miss an opportunity to let people know that they work, as many still don't know. Usually in these threads questions will always come up about if they work at all, how well they work, and do they work in difficult woods.
Chipbreakers work to help control tearout and can be adjusted for heavy or light shavings, and work in a a hard and softwood, they work to prevent tearout in knarly woods and when planing against the grain.

250 years after the chipbreaker was invented and it still needs defending and explaining, so those of us who know have a duty to inform those that don't. Not looking for an argument, not putting down high bed angles or back bevels, just clearly stating the facts and presenting the proof.

Tight throat opening and a heavy shaving, and a video of a blade with zero clearance (relief angle) blade to sole.

Born to Tinker.


Mark, there is no need to defend the double iron, at least on this forum. Many, such as myself, are firm supporters. My comment was that a thread about high cutting angles is useful. If anything, I feel that I am the defensive one since I expect someone to challenge the value of a high cutting angle. It has is place, which is what I am emphasising.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Here is some work I did today with high cutting angles ...

I needed to make slips for the drawers in the table I am building. The wood used is Tasmanian Blue Gum. It is very interlocked and a poor choice. One really should choose straight-grained timber. However, I am using it for the drawer bottoms, as it is a good tonal match for the quarter-sawn Tasmanian Oak drawer sides.

The slips required two processes: firstly, a 3/16" bead was shaped using the Veritas Combination Plane ...

https://i.postimg.cc/CK4CgQcV/slip8.jpg
Here's a look at the wood ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Y21Vmn4J/slip4.jpg

The beading blade has a 30 degree bevel and a 15 degree back bevel (for a 60 degree cutting angle).

The resulting bead ...

https://i.postimg.cc/BvXkLJDg/slip1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/KYwVtCDy/slip2.jpg

Then a 1/8" groove was ploughed with the Small Plow. This blade also had a 15 degree back bevel (and 30 degree bevel) for a 60 degree cutting angle ...

https://i.postimg.cc/prY6brb2/slip5.jpg

The resulting groove ...

https://i.postimg.cc/J0W22JF6/slip6.jpg

The completed slip ....

https://i.postimg.cc/RFtYdGgJ/slip3.jpg

The 1/8" groove for the 1/4" drawer bottom is facing outward.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Mueller]

When working difficult wood, I need to spend more time fiddling with throat opening and chipbreaker settings. I will add that based on what others have suggested here, I put a 50 degree bevel on my #62, and have been very pleased with the results. I’ve never compared the surface with a well set up standard frog double iron plane surface, but at least the tear out is all but eliminated.

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting how a thread about high cutting angles morphs into a defence of the double iron! :rolleyes:

High cutting angles and the double iron can be complimentary - there are areas where a high cutting angle is very relevant. Where a double iron cannot go. As I pointed out earlier, ploughing and beading are two examples. Another is making mouldings in less-than-ideal timber.

Perhaps the original topic has value?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Most of my molding planes have their irons bedded at high angles. Among the hollows & rounds, some are at a higher angles than others. Occasionally some have been found with what looks to be an intentional back bevel. Some others look like the back bevel was from someone being a bit sloppy at the sharpening stones.

jtk

[Tom Trees]

The double iron does need its defence IMO, as none of the top viewed youtube celebrities use it, thus leading many newbies down a path of expense, hence the obligation for some folk to make it known, Yes, Derek has posted here many times about it, as this forum can be very busy, this might go unnoticed, nevermind the weird scrambling of posts, that happens frequently.
Not trying to start an argument, just helping some folks from getting in bother with the spouse. ;)

Stewie, it might have been a good idea to show a photo of the cap iron in use, if you wanted to exclude the cap iron effect from the conversation, it's not like you guessed this would not happen.
So, it seems the original thread has much to offer, if its about planes what don't have a double iron.

Has anyone noticed any difference on say a plough plane with a back bevel, and a higher angle plough plane without one?
That would make a healthy argument if there was to be one, and we might learn something from it.

All the best
Tom

[Tony Mize]

Here is some work I did today with high cutting angles ...

I needed to make slips for the drawers in the table I am building. The wood used is Tasmanian Blue Gum. It is very interlocked and a poor choice. One really should choose straight-grained timber. However, I am using it for the drawer bottoms, as it is a good tonal match for the quarter-sawn Tasmanian Oak drawer sides.

The slips required two processes: firstly, a 3/16" bead was shaped using the Veritas Combination Plane ...

https://i.postimg.cc/CK4CgQcV/slip8.jpg
Here's a look at the wood ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Y21Vmn4J/slip4.jpg

The beading blade has a 30 degree bevel and a 15 degree back bevel (for a 60 degree cutting angle).

The resulting bead ...

https://i.postimg.cc/BvXkLJDg/slip1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/KYwVtCDy/slip2.jpg

Then a 1/8" groove was ploughed with the Small Plow. This blade also had a 15 degree back bevel (and 30 degree bevel) for a 60 degree cutting angle ...

https://i.postimg.cc/prY6brb2/slip5.jpg

The resulting groove ...

https://i.postimg.cc/J0W22JF6/slip6.jpg

The completed slip ....

https://i.postimg.cc/RFtYdGgJ/slip3.jpg

The 1/8" groove for the 1/4" drawer bottom is facing outward.

Regards from Perth

Derek


I never thought about back bevel on my combo plane irons. That a great tip that I’ve never put two and two together.

[Brian Holcombe]

Double irons work!

Birdseye Maple, Curly Maple, Baked hard Birdseye Maple. A Variety of random Hardwoods, nice shavings. Supersurfacer*. ( *handplane with a power feeder)


412377412379412380412381412382412383412384412385

Chris ran a few boards for me to see the super surfacer in action. These are amazing machines.

[Brian Holcombe]

When working difficult wood, I need to spend more time fiddling with throat opening and chipbreaker settings. I will add that based on what others have suggested here, I put a 50 degree bevel on my #62, and have been very pleased with the results. I’ve never compared the surface with a well set up standard frog double iron plane surface, but at least the tear out is all but eliminated.

I like to think if it as my toolbox of technique. My go-to is to set the chipper but I keep everything in mind for odd circumstances where it is needed.

As example, I made rails for shoji with the tsukeko molded into the profile. I cleaned up the facets with a shoulder plane. I increased the bevel angle until the the shavings came out clean and free of tear out. I’d rather have the sheen produced by a 38 degree bevel and a chip breaker but I don’t have double iron joinery planes.

[Brian Holcombe]

Stewie, either you need to read my post again, or take your medication ;) Do you not recognise when I am defending the thread you started?

Regards from Perth

Derek


Fred; the insinuation from Derek's comment was aimed at questioning the value of the topic I raised. End of discussion.

best regards Stewie;

Please put this feud to rest.