Flattening Waterstones... I think I like this Norton Thingie

[Erich Weidner]

All the articles I recall reading and the guides from Veritas and Lie-Neilson suggest using a diamond grit plate (or glass plate and sandpaper, or granite block and sandpaper). Can't say I recall reading anywhere about this, but I bought one when I was out of town visiting family and needed to flatten a combo waterstone I had left with my folks years before. (The state of the kitchen knives' cutting edges was not pretty).

I ordered this thing (from a popular 2 day shipping online merchant)... https://www.nortonabrasives.com/en-us/product/flattening-stone

It worked so fast, I ordered one for myself back home and have not touched my DMT diamond lapping/flattening plate since.

Anyone else use this? What do you prefer? :)

[Mike Henderson]

That Norton flattening stone has some serious problems. Your working stones tend to dish in the center so when you "flatten" them on the Norton stone the Norton stone tends to become convex. To make the Norton stone work you have to keep flattening it. And to do that you need something like a diamond plate (I use the DMT diamond plates). If you don't flatten your Norton stone, you'll eventually be putting a concave surface on your working stones.

But if you have the diamond plate, you had just as well flatten your working stones on it.

Yes, I bought one of those Norton "flattening" stones a while back so I'm relating my actual experiences with it.

I did keep it and use it as a very coarse stone for tools that are badly damaged. But for flattening working stones? No.

Mike

[Andrew Hughes]

Here’s the hot ticket.
A Shapton lapping disk. Then use the diamond plate to keep the flatness.
This is what it looks like.
Same principle as the Norton and one has to be careful not to dish out the softer stones. Like Mike mentions.

[Mike Henderson]

At the very least, Norton should tell people that the "flattening" stone has to be flattened occasionally in order to work properly. Too many people purchase it and then, after using it for a while, wonder why their working stones are not getting flat.

Mike

[Erich Weidner]

That Norton flattening stone has some serious problems. Your working stones tend to dish in the center so when you "flatten" them

Hmmm... well, that is disappointing. I do have the DMT plate, and used to use it, but after a few times where the higher grit stones became suction stuck to it I became a bit disenchanted. I love how quick the Norton thingie works, and never any sticky stones. :)

Now, I do tend to use a circular motion when I flatten with it, so maybe that is why I'm not seeing the convex edge you mentioned. (That or I've just not used it enough).

I guess I'll just have to remember to true it up every now and again on the DMT plate.

[Mike Henderson]

I do have the DMT plate, and used to use it, but after a few times where the higher grit stones became suction stuck to it I became a bit disenchanted. I love how quick the Norton thingie works, and never any sticky stones. :)


Try adding a small amount of dishwashing soap (such as Dawn) to your water when you flatten higher grit stones on the diamond plate. The soap won't hurt the stone and some people report that it eliminates or greatly reduces the sticking. Some people call it stiction.

Mike

[When you rub two surfaces together with a grit between them, the two surfaces conform. That does not mean they conform to two flat surfaces - it's much more likely that they conform to one convex and one concave. There's a process where you can use three surfaces in a certain order and get a flat surface. They teach machinist how to do it but I don't know the sequence. But if you're using only two surfaces, you'll most likely wind up with one convex and one concave.
For hand grinding small telescope mirrors (up to about 8 inches), the process is to use two pieces of glass with a grit between them. The top glass becomes concave and the bottom convex. The top glass is used for a mirror in a reflector telescope. Edmund Scientific used to sell kits to grind your own mirror for a telescope. Today, mirrors of that size are cheap so no one grinds their own any more.]

[Update: Well, it looks like they still sell those mirror making kits. See here (http://firsthanddiscovery.com/astronomy/telescope-making/telescope-mirror-kits.html)for one example. I made a 6 inch mirror back in the 70's.]

[Vincent Tai]

That Norton stone flattener does the opposite of its job description. It cuts fast, and will take off your pencil grid and any marks on your water stones every time leaving the illusion that your stones are flat. Like Mike says, two surfaces conform, but not necessarily to two flat surfaces. I still kept mine for gross stone repairs for random very dished stones I find or shaping stones for other stuff. That lapping stone is what I would consider a diamond stone killer. Also a waste of time to try and flatten it with sandpaper; not to mention it's a waste of sandpaper. It also deposits it's own grit every time you use it, so you might as well be lapping your stones with coarse cheap sandpaper in the first place. I don't normally hate on products but I've detested this thing since I bought one 8 years ago.

[Jim Matthews]

So the DMT becomes the reference to keep the faster Norton flat? Straightedge to verify results?

This is how I use my coarse ATOMA, too.

[J. Greg Jones]

I too had one of those Norton flattening stones, and I was so disappointed in it for the reasons already mentioned that I threw it away. I would have been ashamed to have even given it away to someone.

[Julie Moriarty]

Anyone else use this? What do you prefer?
I have been using the same stone for years and have found no reason to use anything else.

[Robert Engel]

Even tho its a bit flawed, the Norton stone is a useful tool.

I use 80 grit on a flat surface a few strokes and your done.

I don't like using a diamond plate to flatten water stones for the reasons you mentioned.

[Bob Glenn]

I have read that a concrete building block can be used to flatten the Norton stone. Anyone have any experience with this?

[Mike Henderson]

I have read that a concrete building block can be used to flatten the Norton stone. Anyone have any experience with this?

I've never used a concrete building block for flattening stones but it would seem that this approach would suffer the same problems. If you can flatten the Norton stone on a building clock, you could use it for flattening your working stones. Since the Norton stone normally wears to a convex shape, if you keep using the same building block it will wear it to a concave shape so you'd have to replace the building block on some regular basis. And store the block between uses.

I think a much better approach - which I use - is to use a diamond plate to flatten your working stones. It's much smaller and it keeps its shape.

Also, if you had some perfect reference to flatten your Norton stone, the Norton stone will have some error in its shape. You just can't transfer a surface perfectly. Then when you use the Norton stone to flatten your working stone you introduce a bit more error. You're much better off to use the reference to flatten your working stones. And, of course, when you use your working stone to sharpen, some additional error is introduced into the edge of the tool.

Now, your working stones don't have to be perfect, and neither does the shape of the edge of your tool. As long as the error is small everything works fine. But eventually, the error caused by the shape of the Norton stone starts to get too large and your tool edge is way out of shape.

Mike

[Joel David Katz]

All the articles I recall reading and the guides from Veritas and Lie-Neilson suggest using a diamond grit plate (or glass plate and sandpaper, or granite block and sandpaper). Can't say I recall reading anywhere about this, but I bought one when I was out of town visiting family and needed to flatten a combo waterstone I had left with my folks years before. (The state of the kitchen knives' cutting edges was not pretty).

I ordered this thing (from a popular 2 day shipping online merchant)... https://www.nortonabrasives.com/en-us/product/flattening-stone

It worked so fast, I ordered one for myself back home and have not touched my DMT diamond lapping/flattening plate since.

Anyone else use this? What do you prefer? :)

My experience with that flattening stone is that it's about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle.

Throw it away and get a diamond lapping plate.

- David

[Doug Dawson]

That Norton flattening stone has some serious problems. Your working stones tend to dish in the center so when you "flatten" them on the Norton stone the Norton stone tends to become convex. To make the Norton stone work you have to keep flattening it. And to do that you need something like a diamond plate (I use the DMT diamond plates). If you don't flatten your Norton stone, you'll eventually be putting a concave surface on your working stones.

But if you have the diamond plate, you had just as well flatten your working stones on it.

Yes, I bought one of those Norton "flattening" stones a while back so I'm relating my actual experiences with it.

I did keep it and use it as a very coarse stone for tools that are badly damaged. But for flattening working stones? No.


I used to use diamond plates for flattening stones. Now I use one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077QCYMNX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It's easier to clean, and it's cheaper to replace (the diamonds wear out.) I flatten in a circular motion under running water, until the pencil marks are removed. It helps to do it often. I check for flatness pretty regularly. If I ever noticed it going out of spec, I'd replace it, it's only twenty bucks or so. I haven't needed any more precision than that.

It's too hard to manhandle a surface plate into the sink to wash off the swarf thoroughly, I'm getting old.

[Randy Heinemann]

The purpose of flattening stones is to have a reliable plate/stone to flatten your other stones. As far as I know, the only flattening plate that doesn't require any maintenance is a diamond plate. Diamond essentially lasts forever and you should never have to flatten the plate.

The Norton plate brings up the question of what you use to flatten that plate over time?

[Tom M King]

I use Atoma 140, and 400 diamond grit replacement sheets stuck to a granite surface plate, but the dedicated sharpening sink has a plenty large enough drainboard, and a double swivel spout on one of the faucets so it can be used under running water (no such thing as water shortage here). I got tired of using things that weren't really flat.

[Eric Danstrom]

I bought one from Woodcraft, it went on sale 2 days later. I haven't used it yet but I threw away the box...now that I'm in it for $35 I could try keeping it flat with sandpaper on my granite surface plate. Except I could just use sandpaper/surface plate on my waterstones and skip the Norton brick...maybe I'll stash in the back of a drawer and forget about it.

[Mike Henderson]

I bought one from Woodcraft, it went on sale 2 days later. I haven't used it yet but I threw away the box...now that I'm in it for $35 I could try keeping it flat with sandpaper on my granite surface plate. Except I could just use sandpaper/surface plate on my waterstones and skip the Norton brick...maybe I'll stash in the back of a drawer and forget about it.

It works well as a very coarse stone when you want to take a lot off but don't want to go to your powered grinder because you might overheat the metal.

Mike

[Richard Jones]

sticky stones + diamond plate = mo' H2O. I'm fortunate that I have mine where the water can run continuously on the stones.

[Andrew Hughes]

If we are taking about that Dmt plastic thing with a thin sheet of metal. That’s not really a diamond plate too flimsy and lite weight.
I have used them in the past and there just no place for the swarf to go.

[Ted Phillips]

I have used the DMT DiaFlat (https://www.amazon.com/DMT-Diamond-Machining-Technology-DIAFLAT/dp/B005FUHTDG/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=diaflat+dmt&qid=1562168967&s=gateway&sr=8-1) lapping plate for years. It is expensive - but darned well worth it.

[J. Greg Jones]

I have used the DMT DiaFlat (https://www.amazon.com/DMT-Diamond-Machining-Technology-DIAFLAT/dp/B005FUHTDG/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=diaflat+dmt&qid=1562168967&s=gateway&sr=8-1) lapping plate for years. It is expensive - but darned well worth it.
Same here, no regrets at all for what it cost.

[Günter VögelBerg]

I had one of those and it was FAR from flat. I dropped it. It broke. I bought a granite machinist plate and some coarse sandpaper. Then I got tired of flattening things and bought some oilstones.

[Winston Chang]

I've been using a brick to flatten my waterstones. But not just any old brick -- I started with three ordinary bricks and lapped them against each other with abrasive grit, to produce a very flat surface on each one. (I have a diamond plate, but it's slightly bowed. The brick is flatter than it.)

I started a thread on it here: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?273412-Making-flattening-stones-with-3-bricks

Since my initial experience with it, it has continued to work well. The only negative so far is that, as I've used it, the surface has gotten very smooth, and there's a bit of stiction with the surface of the waterstone that I'm flattening. If I had an angle grinder, I'd grind some grooves in the bricks so that it looked like the Norton flattening stone.

Now that I think about it, it's possible that if your Norton isn't flat, you could flatten it using two bricks -- that is, flatten all the surfaces by lapping each one against each other one. I'm not sure how well this would work, since the bricks probably wouldn't wear at the same rate as the flattening stone. It might just require spending more time lapping the surfaces to get to the flat result. That said, I'm certain you could flatten three of the Nortons against each other, but obviously that costs more money.

[Mike Brady]

Threw that green norton stone away years ago. There used to be a video of a well-known woodworker smashing one to a hundres pieces with a big hammer. Get the picture?:rolleyes:

[Paul McGaha]

Threw that green norton stone away years ago. There used to be a video of a well-known woodworker smashing one to a hundres pieces with a big hammer. Get the picture?:rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk69yjX8ShU

It doesn't seem that Chris is real big on the Norton flattening stone.

I use Atoma diamond plates for keeping waterstones flat myself.

PHM

[ken hatch]

If you are willing to spend a buck or two there are a couple of good diamond plates that are flat and have groves to reduce stricture. Because I have round heels when it come to sharpening I have both. One is made by Shapton and the other is a Nano-Hone NL-8. The Shapton plate I've used for several years with no issues. The Nano-Hone for less than a years but also no issues.

Are they better than other plates? Seem to be but that's just my opinion with nothing to back it up other than experience. Are they worth the money, that depends on how much you like your money.

BTW, I've used the DMT lapping plate and several different Atoma plates for comparison.

ken

[Erich Weidner]

I'm sad to see that my super quick stone truer-upper is so maligned. I started this thread just after having used it keeping stones true as I lapped and initial sharpened two new plane blades.
The planes are cutting very well. I guess it did a good enough job on the stones.

But now I know I'll probably go back to the heavy DMT plate. I just found the source of the above video from Mr. Schwarz ... https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/dmt-introduces-its-dia-flat-plate/

I am sad.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm sad to see that my super quick stone truer-upper is so maligned. I started this thread just after having used it keeping stones true as I lapped and initial sharpened two new plane blades.
The planes are cutting very well. I guess it did a good enough job on the stones.

But now I know I'll probably go back to the heavy DMT plate. I just found the source of the above video from Mr. Schwarz ... https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/dmt-introduces-its-dia-flat-plate/

I am sad.

Don't feel bad. Many of us went down the same path and felt the same way.

Mike

[Doug Dawson]

I'm sad to see that my super quick stone truer-upper is so maligned. I started this thread just after having used it keeping stones true as I lapped and initial sharpened two new plane blades.
The planes are cutting very well. I guess it did a good enough job on the stones.

But now I know I'll probably go back to the heavy DMT plate. I just found the source of the above video from Mr. Schwarz ... https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/dmt-introduces-its-dia-flat-plate/

I am sad.

Be ye of good cheer! Don't be sad.

I've been using my Nordstrand flattening stone for over a year, and it's flatter now than when I bought it. And it was reasonably flat when I bought it. Large scale flat, but with some valleys under 5 thou here and there, which don't seem to make any difference to performance.

I flatten often, like, with every _significant_ use. And I use large circular motions, under running water. And it rarely takes more than ten seconds to flatten a Shapton (i.e. get rid of the pencil marks.) And the Shaptons are flat afterwards. And I know how to measure flatness.

I don't know what is the problem with other people, that they feel it necessary to buy a two hundred dollar diamond stone to do this stuff because this stone doesn't work for them (if it's not flat, you must send it back.) Maybe they're holding it wrong. :^)

[Mike Brady]

Diamond essentially lasts forever...?

Diamond plates unfortuneately do not last forever....and using them to flatten stones wears them even faster. This topic has been discussed many times on this forum.

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm sad to see that my super quick stone truer-upper is so maligned. I started this thread just after having used it keeping stones true as I lapped and initial sharpened two new plane blades.
The planes are cutting very well. I guess it did a good enough job on the stones.

But now I know I'll probably go back to the heavy DMT plate. I just found the source of the above video from Mr. Schwarz ... https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/dmt-introduces-its-dia-flat-plate/

I am sad.

Erich,
You put out there something that you intended to be helpful for all of us. We get that. And we appreciate it. I have eyeballed that same Norton for more than a year, so I was glad to see your review. (I dislike using my diamond stones to flatten my Shaptons, because the stiction is a pain.) But I hadnt researched it, and your post drew in a number of people whose opinion I respect. Unfortunately, as it sometimes happens around here, sometimes other people have a very different experience with a tool someone else loved. It happens. But you cant get better than real life reviews from a wide range of real life users.

Despite some "aggressive" choices of words in a couple posts, please know that nobody meant anything unfriendly or embarrassing. But, as you can probably tell, there are some seriously opinionated folks around here (including me).

Hang with us man.
Fred