Sharpening Bowl Gouges

[Dr. Zack Jennings]

We spent a great deal of time in class learning to condition new turning tools and resharpening. Wayne recommended the use of 8" grinding wheels and either an Ellsworth Jig or the Varigrind jig. Both are made to position the tool edge 2" in front of the jig, 4" above the pivot point and 7" in front of the pivot point. Therefore: A block must be added to the pivot on the Oneway Wolverine grinding jig to raise the pivot to 4" below the center of rotation on an 8" grinder.
The result is a 30 degree fingernail grind bevel. The wings of the tool sweep much futher back that the standard grind that comes on most new 1/2" bowl gouges. Sorby makes a fingernail grind.
All new tools must be condition from the factory and resharpened often during each project.

<img src="http://www.zackjennings.com/2/4130EllsworthJig.jpg">

<img src="http://www.zackjennings.com/2/4132EllsworthJig2.jpg">

[Dr. Zack Jennings]

Smoothing the Tool Rest We smoothed the tool rest on my lathe at Arrowmont on a belt sander then applied wax to allow the hand on the rest to slide smoothly. Rounding the bottom edges on Skews and Square End Scraper tools will allow them to slide better over the tool rest.

A smooth flow of the cutting edge is essential, along with a sharp tool, to get a smooth surface on your turning.

The lathe itself must be carefully maintained and polished so that the tailstock moves freely over the bed rails. There are more things that need attention.

<center> Any Maintenance Tips Out There?

[Tom Sweeney]

Unfortunately I don't really get it. I'm kind of at a stand still on my new turning addiction because my verrrry limited array of turning tools are all dull. Unfortunately, as I mentioned in a previous post - I think I am missing the tool sharpening gene :o - I just can not get a good edge to save my life. I've basically ruined the edge of my 1 gouge & can not get it back. Maybe it's not possible to get a sharp edge on a gouge without a jig like the one you posted. I have a new set of tools on order - but I can't be buying new tools everytime they lose an edge :eek:

Any ideas where a good place for resources on tool sharpening might be? I can't spend an arm & a leg for a tormek(?) or much of anything else for that matter. I might get the lee valley Sharpening Woodworking Tools - DVD. Hopefully that will help.

Any way thanks for this & all the other arrowmont posts.

[Dr. Zack Jennings]

Any ideas where a good place for resources on tool sharpening might be? I can't spend an arm & a leg for a tormek(?) or much of anything else for that matter. I might get the lee valley Sharpening Woodworking Tools - DVD. Hopefully that will help.

Any way thanks for this & all the other arrowmont posts.

Tom I can appreciate your aggrevation. You don't have to have a Tormak. You can use a 6" or 8" grinder and make a positioning jig but: you do have to have sharp tools to get a smooth cut and resharpen several times during each project. What about Harbor Freight?

and.....You have to know what the sharp tool should look like when you finish. I'm trying to decide on whether or not to buy a lathe at all.

I have too much stuff already in my house.
I can make both of my friends and each of my relatives a piece. Then what?
I don't want to sell or do crafts. I have a good day job.
Yet, I have a leg up... I took the course.
and... Turning is toooooo Cool !
You have to have a shapening system. A lathe is not much more functional than a boat anchor with out sharp tools.

[Michael Cody]

Unfortunately I don't really get it. I'm kind of at a stand still on my new turning addiction because my verrrry limited array of turning tools are all dull. Unfortunately, as I mentioned in a previous post - I think I am missing the tool sharpening gene :o - I just can not get a good edge to save my life. I've basically ruined the edge of my 1 gouge & can not get it back. Maybe it's not possible to get a sharp edge on a gouge without a jig like the one you posted. I have a new set of tools on order - but I can't be buying new tools everytime they lose an edge :eek:

Any ideas where a good place for resources on tool sharpening might be? I can't spend an arm & a leg for a tormek(?) or much of anything else for that matter. I might get the lee valley Sharpening Woodworking Tools - DVD. Hopefully that will help.

Any way thanks for this & all the other arrowmont posts.



POPPYCOCK ... you don't need no jig to sharpen, anyone can do it , "just takes a little practice" .. me I sharpen freehand most often, but I do use a Vari-Grind jig to grind the intial shape and reshape on occassion.. but here is my recommendation:

Get your self in contact with one of the groups below .. they can help you out and I gotta believe one has to be close to you in PA...

Bucks Woodturners
Serving: Southeastern PA
Meeting Date: 3rd Monday Sept - June
Chapter Web Site: http://bucksturners.com
Contact:
William A Sticker
1437 Nevarc Rd
Warminster, PA 18974
215-443-9079
kasticker@aol.com
Delval Turners
Serving: Philadelphia and suburbs and South Jersey
Meeting Date: 4th Monday
Contact:
Herbert Kurtz
5 Latham Pkwy
Melrose Park, PA 19027
215-886-7260
Keystone Turners
Serving: SE PA, Montgomery, Chester, Berks County
Meeting Date: 3rd Wednesday odd months
Contact:
David Souza
76 Jackson Rd
Gilbertsville, PA 19525
610-367-5618
dcsouza@fast.net
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
Serving: Greater Lehigh Valley Area
Meeting Date: 2nd Thursday
Chapter Web Site: http://lehighvalleywoodturners.org
Contact:
Jim Byrne
985 Bushkill Dr
Bath, PA 18014-9724
610-759-8079
jawbone@enter.net
Mid Penn Turners
Serving: Mid PA
Meeting Date: Various Saturdays
Contact:
Robert Rosand
198 Dug Rd
Bloomsburg, PA 17815
570-784-6158
rrosand@ptdprolog.net
Presque Isle Woodturners
Serving: Northwest PA
Meeting Date: 1st Wednesday
Contact:
Monte Collier
4901 Reese Rd
Erie, PA 16510
814-899-8470
mlcollier_1@msn.com
South Central Pennsylvania Turners
Serving: South Central PA
Meeting Date: 1st Tuesday
Contact:
Jerry Kopenhaver
50 Warrington Ways
Wellsville, PA 17365
717-432-2753
kopenhaver@pa.net
Susquehanna Woodturners
Serving: Harrisburg area of Southeastern PA
Meeting Date: 2nd Tuesday
Contact:
William R Hackett
100 White Pine Dr
Hershey, PA 17033
717-520-0393
wrhackett@comcast.net
Turners Anonymous
Serving: Pittsburgh and Southwest PA
Meeting Date: 3rd Saturday Sept - May
Chapter Web Site: http://turnersanonymous.org
Contact:
Craig Smith
1287 Washington Rd
Pittsburgh, PA 15228
412-996-5666
craig@turnersanonymous.org


Or maybe get in contact with Bill Grumbine and get a private lesson .. worth it's weight in gold. Otherwise get the AAW (American Association of Woodturners) sharpening video .. check the local library or one of the groups above or buy it outright. It will show you how to sharpen in pictures which makes it easier to get the hang of it.

I know it seems impossible but it's really not that hard once you get past the learning curve...

[Charles Bjorgen]

Tom -- I strongly urge you to buy the sharpening video that has been produced by the American Association of Woodturners (AAW). This video shows four different pro turners sharpening turning tools the way they do things. It also describes the use of the Oneway Wolverine jig system which I happen to like and use. Most turners seem to favor the dry grinder which I also use. Check this out on the AAW web site:

http://www.woodturner.org/


Unfortunately I don't really get it. I'm kind of at a stand still on my new turning addiction because my verrrry limited array of turning tools are all dull. Unfortunately, as I mentioned in a previous post - I think I am missing the tool sharpening gene :o - I just can not get a good edge to save my life. I've basically ruined the edge of my 1 gouge & can not get it back. Maybe it's not possible to get a sharp edge on a gouge without a jig like the one you posted. I have a new set of tools on order - but I can't be buying new tools everytime they lose an edge :eek:

Any ideas where a good place for resources on tool sharpening might be? I can't spend an arm & a leg for a tormek(?) or much of anything else for that matter. I might get the lee valley Sharpening Woodworking Tools - DVD. Hopefully that will help.

Any way thanks for this & all the other arrowmont posts.

[Jim Becker]

Any ideas where a good place for resources on tool sharpening might be?

Tom, many of us in the area would be more than happy to help you learn how to sharpen. Bill Sarver in your area does some teaching at Woodcraft in Downingtown. You might contact him through them to arrange for some formal instruction or just get together with any of us in SE PA for something informal.

Additionally, the <a href="http://www.woodturner.org" target="_new">AAW</a> has a good sharpening video available.

[Steve Clardy]

I just use the dry grind method with the ol water dipping in a jar to keep it cool. I use an ordinary 8" grinder. In between major grinds I just use 80-100 grit emery paper laid on a flat metal surface, bandsaw table, etc.
When dry grinding it takes a little learning to get used to it. Know how to grind without blueing, how to turn the tool when grinding, etc. Take you an old flat file and practice with it. Say maybe try to make a skew out of it. But--word of caution here, do not use it for a lathe tool, just practice. Old files are too hard and brittle. They break easily. my 2 cents, Steve

[Dr. Zack Jennings]

I just use the dry grind method with the ol water dipping in a jar to keep it cool. I use an ordinary 8" grinder. In between major grinds I just use 80-100 grit emery paper laid on a flat metal surface, bandsaw table, etc.
When dry grinding it takes a little learning to get used to it. Know how to grind without blueing, how to turn the tool when grinding, etc. Take you an old flat file and practice with it. Say maybe try to make a skew out of it. But--word of caution here, do not use it for a lathe tool, just practice. Old files are too hard and brittle. They break easily. my 2 cents, Steve

Good discussion goin'.... Can you explain the Dry Grind and blueing a little further. In my part of Arkansas there are no turning clubs. I know there are some turners around but haven't touched base with them. I do plan to get together with Peacock & Hatfield.........

<center>More information please .

[Tom Sweeney]

I'll say it again

THIS PLACE ROCKS! :cool:
Thanks alot guys! I did do a little surfing this afternoon & came up with some info. I'll definately check out AWW. Also - I figured I'd beg a free lesson at the 5 barns shindig. :D

Jim, Thanks a lot - I'll give Bill a call - Michael the Keystone turners are the closest to me - I'll call them also.

Thanks again guys - there's hope yet :)

[Jim Becker]

Good discussion goin'.... Can you explain the Dry Grind and blueing a little further.

Dry grind, to the best of my knowlege refers to grinding on a regular, normal wheel without any form of lubricant. A wet wheel grinder, like the Tormek, uses water as the "lubricant".

Blueing is a color change that occurs in steel when it gets heated beyond a certain point. It was a serious sign of problems before we all started using high-speed steel in our turning tools. It's less of an issue with HSS, as the temper generally will not be lost when sharpening this metal unless you really try hard. Plane irons and other tools made of carbon steel and other variations, however, need a very light touch and frequent dunking to insure that the tempurature does not exceed a certain level. If you do...the steel gets soft and becomes "worthless" for its intended purpose.

[Steve Clardy]

Good discussion goin'.... Can you explain the Dry Grind and blueing a little further. In my part of Arkansas there are no turning clubs. I know there are some turners around but haven't touched base with them. I do plan to get together with Peacock & Hatfield.........

<center>More information please .

Zack. The dry grind is exactly what it is. Grinding freehand on a bench grinder with no water running on the stone. Keep a jar, can, [I use a pint] full of water next to you. Grind some, dip the tool tip in the water. You do not want it to get hot. Takes the temper out of the tools. The blueing is when you have ground to far, got it to hot. The tool tip turns blue as you grind. Bad-Bad-Bad. When the temper is gone, the tool will never hold an edge like it should. Blueing makes the tool soft.
Looks like you are about to purchase a first class lathe setup. If you enjoy it, go for it. Steve

[Dr. Zack Jennings]

Blueing

We were dry grinding in class but all our turning tools are HSS. I did notice the edges getting dark. Our instructor said it was not a problem but we did dip them and cool them down before using them.

Jim Becker's comments are much the same as we were told in class.

[Tom Sweeney]

I came across <a href="http://www.davidreedsmith.com" target="_blank">www.davidreedsmith.com</a> in my surfing today. he has an interesting rube goldberg contraption that you can download plans & instructions for. Even if you don't use it as is there are some interesting shop made jigs that you could adapt to a grinder setup. I'd upload the PDF, he says to share it, but it's almost 8 megs & I don't want to waste SMC's bandwidth.

I was dry grinding my tools & only got it too hot once - I had the pan of water ready - just didn't use it in time. My real problem was actually getting a sharp edge - One time all these great fluffy shavings came off my bowl - but after that I couldn't replicate it. I really need to get some new tools all around - even my grinder is an old POC with a worn wheel. - no problem to get a new wheel but the tool budget is pretty much blown for a little while for anything more - at least till I make some stuff for the house that LOML wants done (she's been very patient). I have a machine that was given to me that I think would make a killer grinding / sharpening sation. It's basically a big bench top milling machine - with an X Y table & all kinds of other stuff. but I have to run electric & build a bench for it.

Zack I agree with Steve - if you would really enjoy getting into turning & you can afford it without eating into necesseties - then go for it - trust me lousy tools suck!

[Michael Cody]

I came across <a href="http://www.davidreedsmith.com" target="_blank">www.davidreedsmith.com</a> in my surfing today. he has an interesting rube goldberg contraption that you can download plans & instructions for. Even if you don't use it as is there are some interesting shop made jigs that you could adapt to a grinder setup. I'd upload the PDF, he says to share it, but it's almost 8 megs & I don't want to waste SMC's bandwidth.



Tom, the jig in David's AAW article is very handy Honing Jig (http://www.davidreedsmith.com/Articles/HoningDisk/HoningDisk.htm) . I made something very similar that is mounted on the outboard side of my lathe. It's charged w/Lee Valley CR0₂ compound (you can use jewlers rouge other other items too - available at most hardware or industrial supply stores 4-5$ a tube).

I usually hone 20-30 times or more (depends on what I am cutting)between sharpening's ... then I touch it up with a grinder usually freehand.. I only have to reshape/regrind maybe once every 150+ trips to hone/grinder step... saves steel on expensive tools. For that step I do use a jig to get the shape the same every time.

You can also find plans on the web or in one of the mags for a homemade sharpening setup using a shaft that mounts in your drill press and uses a MDF circle to put sandpaper on to sharpen and hone... not sure where it was published, but it's around, someone else might know. But for sure you don't need to spend hundred's of dollars on tools & sharpening jigs.. (though I will honestly admit for planes & chisels I use a tormek I got a deal on) it's just not required.

Another thing too, if you have a grinder, even if it's a cheap-0 special, put a 20$ A0 wheel on it.. Blue AO Wheel @ Woodcraft (http://shop.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft/productr.asp?pf%5Fid=129762&gift=False&0=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D10000%26Tree%3D%2CDepar tments&1=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D1021%26menu%5Fid%3D%26T ree%3D0%2CSharpening&2=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D2055%26menu%5Fid%3D%26T ree%3D1%2CGrinding%20Wheels&3=product%5Ffamily%2Easp%2Cfamily%5Fid%3D1852%26Tr ee%3D2%2CBlue%20Aluminum%20Oxide%20Grinding%20Whee ls&HSLB=False&mscssid=EEF80D6D28A14CDB8E6243F18B25C7D7) this is the one I use, it's a bit harder than normal AO wheels and lasts longer.. does a good job reshaping which is what I use it for more than anything else, but it also does an ok job on touchups. I run it on an old Craftsman 6" 3450 grinder I paid I think 15$ for at a garage sale.

Also on tools, I only buy gouges, almost all my other tools are homemade unless I got them as gift. You can make scrapers easy using cheap cold rolled 1018 or even scrap steel for shafts and mounting HSS metal square cutters in the end.. You can get the cutter bits for 1-2$ apiece at MSC and other places.. Just make the shaft out of cold rolled, put a handle on it and mount the HSS cutter on the end w/a set screw or super glue. You can also use allen wrenches, shaft keys, etc. any hardened steel.. it's a cheap way to make scapers. I also buy 1/2" thick x 1" O-1 Tool steel and make my own big bowl scrapers, but it's a touch more tricky since you have to harden them to make them hold an edge.

Guess I am saying that while I like nice stuff, I am a cheap poor sucker and am always looking for ways to not spend money if I can help it. While all those nice catalog items are slick and often times worth the cost, it's not required .. you can get by with a lot less and even get better stuff w/o spending anywhere near as much. I would love a Stubby or Oneway but my Nova 3k was all I could swing when I wanted to upgrade and it's works well .. I am envious of the Dr. .. someday I will see a big lathe like that in my shop but not in the near furture so I get by with what I can. It's more just about going and doing it, turn some wood and practice, it will all come in time. Keep working on sharpening with what you got and you will get better .. it's that way and it's a skill that will stand you in good stead. A lesson with someone who knows how to do it, will be worth a lot more than any gizmo or gadget you can buy anyday.

[Michael Cody]

Tom here is a link to a full set of plans to make your own wolverine knock off jig out of wood. This one plan, there are others on the web .. I think I've seen links here but it's a simple jig to make..

Wolverine Jig Knock Off plans (http://www.a1studio.freeserve.co.uk/widgets/grindingjig/grindjig.html)

[Tom Sweeney]

Here's a picture of the milling machine that I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread. I just realized I had a picture of it.

Once I run electric & make a bench for it - I hope to make a killer grinding / honing station - among other uses. There are a few other accessories that you don't see here.

<img src="http://www.realtymarketing.com/wood/mill2.jpg">

Just figured you might be interested in looking & giving any comments as to whether this could be made to do what I want.

Thanks again for all the great info.

[Mark Kauder]

One of the things that you should NOT do with HSS is quickly cool it by dipping it in water if you get it too hot. Quickly cooling it, can cause micro fracturing for the metal and reduce it's strenght. Just let it air cool.


Mark

[W.C. Turner]

Here's a site with one of the best home made jigs I've seen.

http://www.jeanmichel.org