southern yellow pine decking

[Günter VögelBerg]

Does anyone have experience building a deck out of southern yellow pine? It is not very common where I live but a local decking supplier says that if I do not want to use manufactured products (I don't) and don't want to pay for exotic imports then this is the way to go. He said that redwood (standard here in the west) is getting very scarce because of recent wildfires and that he does not stock it any more and that the bog box stores won't either after their existing stock is sold. All of the big box stores around me have pretty low stock, seemingly confirming this. I like the look of the pine and the price cannot be beat. I am interested in how it stains. He also said it tends to come fairly green. I am not sure if I should be concerned about this or not.

[Roger Feeley]

Does anyone have experience building a deck out of southern yellow pine? It is not very common where I live but a local decking supplier says that if I do not want to use manufactured products (I don't) and don't want to pay for exotic imports then this is the way to go. He said that redwood (standard here in the west) is getting very scarce because of recent wildfires and that he does not stock it any more and that the bog box stores won't either after their existing stock is sold. All of the big box stores around me have pretty low stock, seemingly confirming this. I like the look of the pine and the price cannot be beat. I am interested in how it stains. He also said it tends to come fairly green. I am not sure if I should be concerned about this or not.

I just bought some SYP treated lumber from Home Depot to rebuild part of a playset. It was soaked so I stickered it in my basement and ran a fan on it for a month. I've read that you can buy treated lumber that is KDAT (Kiln Dried After Treatment). That sure would have been great for my little project. I regret not trying harder to find it. My project wasn't big and whatever difference there might have been in the price would have been well worth it. You might call around and see if you can find it.

Treated lumber is going to be green colored and that messes with your stain colors. The paint and stain people recommend that you let it air dry for 6 months before applying finish. They say that the moisture coming out of the wood will cause bubbles in the finish. It could be that, once the wood weathers a bit, the green will be less pronounced.

I'm curious why you don't want to do your decking with Trex or something. I've used that stuff a number of times and really like it. The one piece that I don't get is that you can't support your decking with stuff that lasts as long. My general feeling is that the deck structure will rot out under the Trex and you will have to scrap your perfectly good decking.

[Günter VögelBerg]

I just do not like the look of the composites. I've looked at all of them and hate all of them. Not enough variation or grain and color. They just do not look like real wood. They look more like real wood than they did ten years ago, but in my opinion they still aren't close.

So could I theoretically build my deck and leave it unfinished for the rest of the summer and stain it in the fall? It's pretty dry here in the summer. The samples they showed me had only a slight greenish hue.

If I were to go with the pressure treated pine would I need to worry about how it interacts with any of my tools? Obviously I'll mostly be using a circular saw, but I have some somewhat complicated plans for railings that are going to involve my hollow chisel mortiser and probably other shop tools.

I''m excited to use my new Milwaukee Hole Hawg and Skil Sawsquatch that you guys talked me into buying.

[Yonak Hawkins]

I just do not like the look of the composites. Not enough variation or grain and color

..Strictly my opinion but I'm not a fan of the look of treated lumber .. probably less so than composites. It can be painted or stained but that reduces variations as well.

[Günter VögelBerg]

I never liked the pressure treated look either, but this pine they showed me I liked.

[Frank Pratt]

[QUOTE=Günter VögelBerg;2934336]I just do not like the look of the composites. I've looked at all of them and hate all of them. Not enough variation or grain and color. They just do not look like real wood. They look more like real wood than they did ten years ago, but in my opinion they still aren't close. /QUOTE]

I agree with you 100%. The stuff is supposed to last forever, and maybe it will, but by the time it ages a bit it just gets this funky, shabby look to it. I've never seen 10 year old composite that looks nearly as good as my 10 year old ipe decking. And the ipe costs considerably less than the better quality composite. Try as I might, I can't make myself like the stuff. But, each to their own.

Around these parts, the PT lumber sold for decks & fences is mostly a light brown color, not green. And it ages very nicely without any stain, but I bet it would look better with a stain than the green stuff.

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

Gunter,

I have built a couple of decks using PT southern yellow pine. You do not need to worry about your tools, but you do need to use fasteners that are rated for pressure treated lumber.

Also, the lumber you get will be wet--real wet, which means it will be heavy and as it dries it is going to warp--really warp. As opposed to woodworking, you want to start construction ASAP after you get your lumber delivered. When you lay your deck boards, most likely you will want to butt them up up tight to one another. As they dry, they will shrink and provide the right spacing between them.

You are spot on about building the deck and then waiting until the fall to stain. You want it to dry out before stain.

Good luck

[Günter VögelBerg]

So any concern leaving the deck unsealed for 2-3 months? I could probably stain/seal in early October and our summers are dry so I imagine that would be adequate time.

If I cover it with a tarp will it prolong the working time I have? I can put down the decking pretty quickly but building the benches, railings, etc is going to take some time, but I don't want to pay to get this stuff delivered twice.

[Tom M King]

Living Yellow Pine country, and building houses for 45 years, I've built many. I assume you're talking about using 5/4 x 6 decking boards. If you're not buying a whole bundle, pick your boards, and leave the ones with bark on them in the stack.

Joists are framed on 16" centers, and I alternate screws on opposite sides of the board, from one joist to the next. That helps alleviate surface checking from two fasteners across the face. Picture is such a deck that I built in 1992, and has never had anything put on it-picture with torque wrench lets you see there is not severe checking on this old deck. I do pressure wash it every few years, and was pressure washed a couple of months after I took that picture. I use 8cc nails for spacers when fastening down fresh, wet stuff. It's wet from the treatment plant. They kill dry it before treating, but the treatment plants around here don't kiln dry it after treating. Dry can be special ordered, but for a deck out in the weather, I don't see paying a premium for it.

For railings, I always have some hand picked, clear boards drying for at least two years to run parts out of.

Use Deckmate screws with the black labels on the boxes. They're "star drive" which is really a torx head.

Picture of dock shows it after pressure washing. I built that in 1991, built the same way, with alternating screws, and just replaced 6 boards this past Spring. Squares are 16'.

[John K Jordan]

I've built thousands of square feet of decks for myself and friends with pressure treated SYP. It's the standard for decks around here.

Most is sopping wet when bought and you can either sticker it and let it dry for a while or put it up wet and expect shrinkage. You can also buy KDAT (kiln dried after treatment) which is a premium price but generally a higher quality and dry, of course. I use wet PT for posts, joists, steps, and decking boards and KDAT for railings.

PT pine can be stained or painted after it dries. I think it's best to wait 4-6 months in our climate. I prefer to leave it natural. If kept clean it will last a long time. At the house we are in now we just rebuilt a deck that was built about 30 years ago, not because it was in horrible shape but mostly because we remodeled the exterior and I wanted a better design.

BTW, for decking most people use 5/4 decking boards. For my bigger decks I liked to use 2x6 PT lumber. This is a lot sturdier and doesn't cost all that much more. I built the deck in the pictures that way at our last house (except perhaps around the pool, can't remember). Posts were 4x6, joists were 2x8 to 2x10 depending on span, and center and edge beams were double 2x12 or equivalent. This one was extra fun since I did it without help, mostly in 90+deg summer temperatures!

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JKJ



Does anyone have experience building a deck out of southern yellow pine? It is not very common where I live but a local decking supplier says that if I do not want to use manufactured products (I don't) and don't want to pay for exotic imports then this is the way to go. He said that redwood (standard here in the west) is getting very scarce because of recent wildfires and that he does not stock it any more and that the bog box stores won't either after their existing stock is sold. All of the big box stores around me have pretty low stock, seemingly confirming this. I like the look of the pine and the price cannot be beat. I am interested in how it stains. He also said it tends to come fairly green. I am not sure if I should be concerned about this or not.

[Günter VögelBerg]

Why the 5/4 instead of 2x? cost? Around here 2x6 redwood is the most common deck material, but apparently is becoming scarce. I went to a decking supplier and was told they don't have any and can't get any. I went to Lowes, Home Depot and a local building supply outfit and the stuff they had was really picked over and just did not look good.

[Tom M King]

The 5/4 decking boards are all clear. You can order a whole bundle of No. 1 2x6's, but all the 2x6's suppliers around here keep are no. 2 grade, or worse, and have knots in them.

I've built many out of 2x's too, but since all the small suppliers were put under by the big box stores, the quality of 2x material has gone way down.

I don't stain wood outside because I like to pressure wash it. Being by a large body of water, mildew loves it. After pressure washing, I will often run my floor buffer over the floor with a 100 grit screen, so it's kind to bare feet. If I stained it, pressure washing wouldn't go so good. I can make bare wood look new again.

[Jimmy Smith]

Hello, There are millions on the East coast built out of pressure treated pine, look at the hidden fastener systems make the job look much better.

[Günter VögelBerg]

So should I plan on using the 5/4 or is there a compelling reason not to? I have to decide tonight because I am setting my footings and ledger board.

[Tom M King]

No good reason not to use it. It's finished size is 1" thick.

[Bill Dufour]

Location and climate. For some reason people here assume treated wood, is that true or just raw SYP. treated will last much longer outdoors.
Bill D

[Tom M King]

Untreated, for an outside floor, it might last 2 years, or at least that's how long it will last here.

[Günter VögelBerg]

Can I assume that the SYP pressure treated 5/4 will be planed smooth?

[Tom M King]

Yes, they're made specifically for deck flooring. They should be called "Decking Boards" on the stack label. The edges are even more rounded than the typical framing lumber. It's possible to buy 5/4 treated Pine that is not specifically for decking, but I don't know why any supplier would keep that in stock.

You can special order any size that you want, but no supplier will hardly have anything unusual in stock. I even built a timber framed two story porch out of treated 12x12's, 10x12's, and 8 x 10's in 1983. I ordered it like I wanted it though.

[Robert Engel]

Sorry but has to be pressure treated to last.

That said, even pressure treated lumber will eventually deteriorate. Where I live it gets to looking pretty bad in 5-10 years. Sealing and pressure washing will help keep it looking better.

One big problem is splitting at the butt joints and also screws backing out as the lumber dries. I recommend taking the time to drill and counter sink the screws.

The last deck I built I used composite material and just the thought I'll never have to replace it overrides the imitation look.

[Ole Anderson]

All of my decks started as PT, at first 2x thickness (some 40 years ago), then as deck boards became more common, 5/4. HD carried Thomponized for a while, it was nice. But keeping it looking nice, even owning a pressure washer, was tedious so I first went to the old Trex on my upper deck, then to the plastic coated composites for my lower deck and docks. The old Trex had a surface mold issue. I seem to have it tamed now by using a surface head for my pressure washer followed by 30 Seconds Outdoor Cleaner. If cost was not an issue I would go for a tropical hardwood deck. Downside to the composites is that joist spacing will need to be beefed up. Originally I went with 24" OC for the 2x thickness, then 16" OC for the 5/4 SYP, now you need 12" OC for most composites.

[lowell holmes]

Or look into Cypress. It is a superior outdoor wood.

[Joe Cowan]

Or look into Cypress. It is a superior outdoor wood.

I built a deck with PT pine as the framing and the decking was Cypress. The Cypress lasted about 10 years with rot showing up earlier. The end grain is the weak spot on all natural wood decking. Once the deck is up for a couple of months, you need to seal it, paying special attention to the end of each board, as that area soaks up water more that the face of each board.

[Bradley Gray]

I have had good luck using this decking. I agree with several folks who have said to use it right away- wetter is better. I lay the boards tight together - shrinkage creates a 1/4" gap. This also makes keeping them straight simpler.

I also use a "BoWrench" for straightening - a little pricey but a huge timesaver. The handle moves a nylon pad against the deck board to straighten it. You can let go and drive fasteners. I turn all the boards so the concave side of any bowing is towards the previous board and use the bowrench to push it tight.

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[Günter VögelBerg]

OK, I am going to order the pine and use the 5/4 on 16 inch joists. I'll put it down as soon as I can. Do I have to worry about shrinkage between the screws? The stuff I am ordering is 6 wide.

[Tom M King]

That's why I alternate the screws, from side to side, with only one into each joist. I put them about 1-1/2" from each edge. I put only one in the ends too, but usually have to go back and stick the second one in some ends if a corner starts to lift. By the time a corner might start to lift, it has dried out a lot, so better to drill the holes for the new screws.

If you look at that picture of the 27 year old deck with the torque wrench, you will see that the surfaces are not checked severely. If I had put two in each joist, I probably would have needed to replace that surface years ago.

That dock is built that way too. It's probably had 100 people standing on it for the yearly fireworks shows, and had occasion waves washing over it, so it's plenty strong enough.

[Günter VögelBerg]

That's why I alternate the screws, from side to side, with only one into each joist. I put them about 1-1/2" from each edge. I put only one in the ends too, but usually have to go back and stick the second one in some ends if a corner starts to lift. By the time a corner might start to lift, it has dried out a lot, so better to drill the holes for the new screws.

If you look at that picture of the 27 year old deck with the torque wrench, you will see that the surfaces are not checked severely. If I had put two in each joist, I probably would have needed to replace that surface years ago.

That dock is built that way too. It's probably had 100 people standing on it for the yearly fireworks shows, and had occasion waves washing over it, so it's plenty strong enough.

If only using one screw per joist why not just put it in the middle?

Ant advantage to putting in one screw, waiting for it to dry, then putting in the other?

[Tom M King]

To help prevent some cupping. The screws end up 32" apart along each edge, so it gives the wood somewhere to go when it wants to expand, and contract by pulling the edges out of perfect straight lines, but it's nothing that anyone can ever notice. Wood is going to move. If you try to change its mind, you will lose the argument.

No need to ever go back and put in more screws, unless a corner, or edge starts to lift. After living with these decks for decades, and no complaints by any of the buyers of houses I've sold built like this, the only thing I can see that two fasteners per joist do is shorten the lifespan.

It's always common for people to think that more is better, but it's not always true.

[Jacob Reverb]

Tom, Is that mainly loblolly or longleaf YP you're using down there?

[Tom M King]

I wish it was Longleaf. We're right on the edge of the growing zone, but it was all cut long ago, before my time. Almost all the Pine grown around here now is Loblolly. In Colonial times there was a Pine referred to as "Old Field Pine", and was considered an inferior type. I always wondered if that was Loblolly.

When I first started building houses in 1973, it was possible to get good quality lumber. Even 2x4's were bought straight, and stayed straight. Suppliers always had nice, clear finish boards in all sizes up through 5/4 x 12's. They used to saw the logs, and growers took pride in growing nice saw logs, stack the lumber in huge stacks in the yard on stickers to air dry for a year, then kiln dry it, and finish to size. The kilns were slow drying, using sawdust burning to generate steam for heat. Yellow Pine started straight, and stayed straight.

The big box stores put the last one of those mills around here out of business in 1992. Now logs are grown for maximum tonnage per acre, with no regard for how high the first limbs are, or quality of logs. Mills saw the logs, they're kiln dried overnight, finished to size the next morning, and bundles are banded for shipment. You need to stand back when the bands are cut, and I guess everyone who works with wood knows what YP is like these days. You can't even buy 2x4's any more because they gave up on them staying straight enough for anything, except some specialty suppliers still making them for truss builders.

[Jacob Reverb]

Interesting. I have some local mills who cut the loblolly and air-dry it (or I buy it green) and it usually dries straight without much checking, and it dries fast. (I think they say 90 days for 1-inch stuff and you 're good to go.) I like it, though not as much as the longleaf. I guess the longleaf grows slower, making it more expensive / less profitable for the growers...?

House is 130 yrs old and (I believe) all old-growth loblolly...the newel post probably has 80 visible (very thin) rings and no pith...must have been a huge tree. Even though I believe the entire house is loblolly, some of it is harder than the hammers of He|| (like longleaf) after all these years...

[Tom M King]

Yes, Southern Longleaf is several times slower growing than Loblolly. My family has grown Pine trees for generations. With Loblolly, you get paid after about 15, and 30 years. With Longleaf, the next, or second generation gets the income.

Loblolly is good stuff if properly grown, and not kiln dried overnight. We have a 150 acre stand now that I didn't thin until it had all stretched up, and competing with each other, dropped all the lower limbs until the first limbs were above 32'. It was a gamble, because it has to make it through several Winters without a severe ice storm, or the whole stand might be lost. That was just a couple of Winters ago, and so far, so good. It does look different than all the other stands around these parts where they thinned it early, and the trees have all bushed out. They will get income from theirs earlier than we will, but we will have some valuable saw logs if it survives.

I work with Southern Longleaf most days, in the work I do on historic houses, so know it well too.

[kent wardecke]

Now that you have ordered SYP six you check out treated Douglas fir. I think D Fir is more stable than SYP

[Tom M King]

I hope you ordered clear decking boards. I was in Home Depot today, and glanced at their selection of decking boards. I wouldn't build a fence out of what they had.

[Günter VögelBerg]

I hope you ordered clear decking boards. I was in Home Depot today, and glanced at their selection of decking boards. I wouldn't build a fence out of what they had.


Yeah, I am getting these from a reputable decking supplier that only does decks. the chain stores around here do not stock the southern yellow pine. Their redwood (the usual deck around here) was scant, too. The only thing they had in abundance was trex.