How I do Dovetails

[James Pallas]

I don't care for the look of dovetails. I think mechanically they are a great joint. I started a couple of years ago making full blind dovetails and was happy with the results. It works great for boxes but not so well on drawers where you may have to plane the face a bit sometimes. I now make drawers this way. If all the pieces are the same thickness you can use a double marking gauge for all the lines and also use it to check your socket depths. I leave the tails showing on the back of the drawer for those who question weather there are dovetails. This is my go to drawer now. Pictures are of my proof of concept I made a couple of years ago.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

Looks good Jim. Do you make your saw cuts go a little pass the base line on the tail board to give a future restorationist a clue as to how the joint went together?

(Roy Underhill mentioned doing that on one of his programs.)

jtk

[William Fretwell]

The drawer front top lacks a clean uninterrupted line. The drawer front would have a visible edge from the side piece.
Do you have another clearer example of the final result?
Here is a snap of a drawer front next to me.

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The drawer back has through dovetails.

[James Pallas]

Looks good Jim. Do you make your saw cuts go a little pass the base line on the tail board to give a future restorationist a clue as to how the joint went together?

(Roy Underhill mentioned doing that on one of his programs.)

jtk
I leave the back tails showing for a clue for a possible restorer and for those who wax poetic about no dovetails.:)
Jim

[James Pallas]

The drawer front top lacks a clean uninterrupted line. The drawer front would have a visible edge from the side piece.
Do you have another clearer example of the final result?
Here is a snap of a drawer front next to me.

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The drawer back has through dovetails.

The front goes straight across. The edge you are seeing is the end of th front. You can see the ends of the tails from the back side only. The front is on the right side inn the 4th photo.
Jim

[Mike Henderson]

The front goes straight across. The edge you are seeing is the end of th front. You can see the ends of the tails from the back side only. The front is on the right side inn the 4th photo.
Jim

If I understand your comment and the pictures, you have the tails on the front and the pins on the side. That's backwards for drawers. Dovetails are only strong in tension one way, and that's why we put the tails on the sides. Drawers are subject to high impulse loads when someone jerks a drawer open so you want the inherent strength of the dovetails resisting that impulse.

With the pins on the sides, the only thing holding the front and the sides together is the glue. You'd just as well use finger joints.

But maybe I'm not understanding what you're doing.

Mike

[John Stevens]

Dovetails are only strong in tension one way, and that's why we put the tails on the sides.

This is something I’ve wondered about. No doubt you’re correct, but in view of the strength and
longevity of modern glues, does James’s design have a greater risk of failure in ordinary use (including an accidental drop of a loaded drawer) than the ordinary design? At the risk of thread drift, how about box joints?

—John

[steven c newman]

Hmmm..
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Like this?
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[James Pallas]

If I understand your comment and the pictures, you have the tails on the front and the pins on the side. That's backwards for drawers. Dovetails are only strong in tension one way, and that's why we put the tails on the sides. Drawers are subject to high impulse loads when someone jerks a drawer open so you want the inherent strength of the dovetails resisting that impulse.

With the pins on the sides, the only thing holding the front and the sides together is the glue. You'd just as well use finger joints.

But maybe I'm not understanding what you're doing.

Mike

The three pieces in the photo mock up are front on the right, rear on the left, side on top. The tails are on the side. Pins on the front and back. When looking directly at the back the ends of the tails are showing. I could build the back the same as the front and no tails would show. I let the ends of the tails show for the times I get questions about "no dovetails?".
Jim

[William Fretwell]

So in the second picture the front is on the left. Your pins and tails are organized the traditional way for strength. At the very least the back is more work for something never seen. It opens up the discussion of visible dovetails versus possible machine or fixture joint. Your joints will be under appreciated! I don’t mind the look of dovetails, they add character. Finger joints also can look good, adding character. What is the appeal for you of hiding the joinery?

[James Pallas]

So in the second picture the front is on the left. Your pins and tails are organized the traditional way for strength. At the very least the back is more work for something never seen. It opens up the discussion of visible dovetails versus possible machine or fixture joint. Your joints will be under appreciated! I don’t mind the look of dovetails, they add character. Finger joints also can look good, adding character. What is the appeal for you of hiding the joinery?

For me it was not liking the look of dovetails on small boxes. I worked on learning to make mitered full blind dovetails first.
you can than have the grain wrap the corners. That doesn't work so good for drawers because you have to plane the fronts to match the case sometimes. For myself dovetails are a very good joint and I've made thousands of them. To me it's like sawing a M&T in half to show the joinery. Making blind dovetails is not much more difficult than half blinds. If the work is for me on drawers I just make blinds on the back too. You can make drawers using what I think is called a drawer joint with two narrow groves that looks about the same but is far weaker than dovetails. I don't care much for thru tenons or draw bore pins showing in the front either, except in timber framing.
Jim

[Jerry Olexa]

Good job..they are truly blind.....I personally like the look of DTs.....Believe it adds a look of craftmanship to the project as well as strength....In any case, well done..

[Mike Henderson]

For me it was not liking the look of dovetails on small boxes.
Jim

What I do on small boxes is miter the corners and put an ff biscuit in the miter. It can't be seen but provides some extra strength to the joint.

Mike

[steven c newman]

Hmmm...
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Simple miter joint..or...is it?
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Finger joints?
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That can't seen...
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Nothing to it, really...

[Michael Todrin]

Jim,

I also like the look of continuous grain wrapping around the corners. To that end, will you show us your technique and jigs for blind dovetails?

Thanks

Michael

[Mike Henderson]

Jim,

I also like the look of continuous grain wrapping around the corners. To that end, will you show us your technique and jigs for blind dovetails?

Thanks

Michael

I have a couple of tutorials on blind dovetails - here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/FullBlindDovetail.htm)and here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/SecretDovetail.htm).

Mike

[James Pallas]

Jim,

I also like the look of continuous grain wrapping around the corners. To that end, will you show us your technique and jigs for blind dovetails?

Thanks

Michael

I found two photos of work on a box. I don't use the same proceedure for drawers because there is no miter for the drawer. For mitered full blinds I just use a paring block for the miters.
Jim

[Michael Todrin]

Thanks for sharing Jim. Interesting all the different ways of going about things. I usually do my miters after the dovetails and pare on a horizontal block. I like box and the decorative pieces for the handles are attractive.

Michael

[Michael Todrin]

Nice write-ups and a clear tutorial. Thanks for sharing that Mike

[Robert Engel]

You said the tails are on the sides, which like Mike said, is reversed from normal drawer construction.

That said, I don't see the point in what you're doing.

If you don't like the look of DT's why not do it another way?

[James Pallas]

You said the tails are on the sides, which like Mike said, is reversed from normal drawer construction.

That said, I don't see the point in what you're doing.

If you don't like the look of DT's why not do it another way?

If you are suppose to cut tails on the front and back boards and not on the side boards of a drawer than I've been misinformed for 60 years. I like the strength of the joint just not the look. I also like mitered doors instead of butt joints. That doesn't mean I don't tenon them. :)

[steven c newman]

Get it right, and lighten up....then go look up the Underhill episode called "Dovetail Variations" on youtube....

Pins ARE in the drawer fronts, always have been. Tails are named that because they spread out like a Dove's tail...sheesh.
Tails..
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need the botom tail to cover the groove for a drawer bottom, anyway...
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And the infamous "Pin Board" with rebates and the groove..
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Pins....keeps you from pulling the drawer front off of the drawer....in the humid August days, when drawers like to swell a bit...
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With a small box...which ever way looks best...
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But drawers?

[Robert Engel]

If you are suppose to cut tails on the front and back boards and not on the side boards of a drawer than I've been misinformed for 60 years. I like the strength of the joint just not the look. I also like mitered doors instead of butt joints. That doesn't mean I don't tenon them. :)

Sorry I meant tails on the front.

Anyway, I went back and looked at the pics again and I think I see what you're doing is a 1/2 blind on the sides instead of the front.

But my point still remains, I don't see the point in what you're doing. :rolleyes:

[Jim Koepke]

Sorry I meant tails on the front.

Anyway, I went back and looked at the pics again and I think I see what you're doing is a 1/2 blind on the sides instead of the front.

But my point still remains, I don't see the point in what you're doing. :rolleyes:

If everyone everywhere did everything the same way, we would likely all die young from boredom or at least the lack of ability to do something different when needed.

Personally, my fondness for the look of dovetails has me on occasion making drawers with through dovetails. Though knowing other do not like the look as much as me, some of my pieces are made with blind dovetails.

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The tails were purposely made to stand proud. This drawer was assembled 5-1/2 years ago without glue and is still holding strong. Try that with pins on the sideboards. To me, the tails are the 'money shot'. If the drawer wouldn't be weak from such a construction, my drawers would have the tails on the front to proudly show off.

jtk

[James Pallas]

I'm not suggesting that anyone do tails this way. It's like chocolate or vanilla to me. I like cars with hub caps too. Nothing appealing to me about lug nuts showing. Makes a car look like a 2 and a 1/2 to me when the lug nuts are exposed. I've built plenty with dovetails showing because people want them showing. Some like them proud some like to cover them with cock beading. It's what you like when building for yourself.
Jim