Felder PCS - next gen saw stoppage?

[Kevin Groenke]

I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been shared here yet...

Felder introduced it's new "Preventative Contact System" (PCS) at the Ligna trade show in Europe.

https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/technology/felders-high-tech-preventative-contact-system-could-eliminate-all-saw-injuries

This system drops the sawblade in milliseconds using non-destructive electromagnetic repulsion. From what I can tell from info I have found, the detection system is based on proximity or possibly a material behavior algorithm (my phrase) rather than the capacitance method that SawStop uses. This system appears to have two significant improvements over SawStop. 1) non-destructive operation and 2)no actual blade contact required for detection.

Lots of questions remain unanswered.

How does detection work?
Does it infringe on SawStop/Tooltronic (Festool) patents?
Can it be cost effectively applied to less industrial scale equipment ie: cheap tablesaws?
Can it be applied to other equipment such as bandsaws, shapers, jointers, etc?
Will Felder give away their intellectual property to other equipment manufacturers to better mankind?
If the government forces us all to buy Felder tablesaws will we have to speak Austrian?

[Brian Holcombe]

IIRC, Austrians speak German and Hungarian.

This looks interesting to me, I’m curious to see how long it takes before a retrofit becomes available, if ever.

[Patrick Kane]

That is wild that it retracts without being touched. Is there an english version that explains how that field senses flesh?

[Doug Dawson]

I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been shared here yet...

Felder introduced it's new "Preventative Contact System" (PCS) at the Ligna trade show in Europe.

https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/technology/felders-high-tech-preventative-contact-system-could-eliminate-all-saw-injuries

This system drops the sawblade in milliseconds using non-destructive electromagnetic repulsion. From what I can tell from info I have found, the detection system is based on proximity or possibly a material behavior algorithm (my phrase) rather than the capacitance method that SawStop uses. This system appears to have two significant improvements over SawStop. 1) non-destructive operation and 2)no actual blade contact required for detection.

Lots of questions remain unanswered.

How does detection work?
Does it infringe on SawStop/Tooltronic (Festool) patents?
Can it be cost effectively applied to less industrial scale equipment ie: cheap tablesaws?
Can it be applied to other equipment such as bandsaws, shapers, jointers, etc?
Will Felder give away their intellectual property to other equipment manufacturers to better mankind?
If the government forces us all to buy Felder tablesaws will we have to speak Austrian?

I love it! "PCS prevents accidents and guarantees dexterity and a quality handshake forever!" A quality handshake, AND eternal life! Now there's no longer any reason for someone to avoid buying at least a SawStop!

[Derek Cohen]

I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been shared here yet...

Felder introduced it's new "Preventative Contact System" (PCS) at the Ligna trade show in Europe....

Actually, I posted about it a few weeks ago :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike King]

I received this this morning. The PCS is at 6:20.


https://youtu.be/wEooLHUThCU

[Mike King]

Also this page: https://www.felder-group.com/fg-en/pcs.html

Only available on the Kappa 550.

[Bill Dufour]

I believe the sawstop patents have expired by now.
Bil lD

[Doug Dawson]

I believe the sawstop patents have expired by now.
Bil lD

FWIW, there are all kinds of tricks you can use to extend patents. But you raise an interesting point.

[Larry Frank]

Wikipedia says the earliest one expire in 2021 and they are working to extend them.

We will see what the parent company of Festool does to protect the patents since they bought Sawstop.

[Jim Becker]

There was an article recently in Woodshop News about this. Felder's detection method isn't like SawStops...it's not based on physical contact at all. They are using sensing technique that has an "invisible curtain" to detect the presence of the human body's magnetic field. It looks for sudden, rapid approach of the flesh and then triggers the stopping mechanism. It also doesn't damage the blade.

[Erik Loza]

We’re apparently going to have a Kappa 550 with the PCS system in the booth at IWF next year but that’s probably the first time any of us here on the US side will lay eyes on it. I assume the technology is electromagnetic but like everyone else, just assuming. Here’s what I suggest in the meantime: Someone from the central region in Texas needs to order one from me. Then, we can all know for sure :D

Erik

[Brian Holcombe]

There exists a similar technology for meat cutting bandsaws which employs the user’s gloves.

[Erik Loza]

Bumping from the dead: I just got an update from product management in Austria that we WILL be able to offer the PCS feature here in the US. Apparently, Felder KG is confident that it won't present any legal challenges in regards to the patent technology. Here is what I know so far:

-Still only available on the Kappa 550, though the K550 looks like it has been upgraded for 2021 with some nice new features.
-PCS option should add around $10K to the machine cost.
-Probably already mentioned, but the Preventive Contact System DOES NOT destroy the blade and allows the operator to reset the system in seconds. The technology involves industrial magnets that flip polarity when triggered, causing the saw unit to drop below the cast iron table. This system was developed in conjunction with the University of Vienna and patented by Felder.
-I would not hold my breath for the PCS system appearing on any smaller saws any time soon.
-Not sure what what/if is going on with AWFS this year but I would imagine we will have a PCS machine to display in Atlanta in 2022.

Erik

450302

[Pat Rice]

Erik, any other changes for the lower model Felder sliding tablesaws for 2021? When does the 2021 catalog get released?

[Erik Loza]

Erik, any other changes for the lower model Felder sliding tablesaws for 2021? When does the 2021 catalog get released?

Pat, no major changes that I am aware of. Ditto for the catalog. Most of the energy that I have seen is either going into the advanced machinery lines or into bringing more Hammer machines. The mid-range standard machines seem pretty "solid" as far how they fit the market, so I don't sense any major impetus from Austria to be changing things up.

Erik

[Alan Lightstone]

Ok. As most people know here, I'm a tremendous advocate for technology to allow you to keep your digits intact, after making a mistake on your tablesaw. And have put my money where my mouth is in buying two SawStops. And have a shop full of Felder machines. So serious loyalty to both brands. And I'm thrilled that another company is employing technology to make tablesaws safer.

That being said, $10K addition in cost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets say a $200 Forrest blade and $80 SawStop cartridge gets destroyed by triggering it. Rinse, repeat 36 times, and the technologies are comparable in cost.

Has anyone in the World triggered a SawStop 36 times? If so, they have no business using a tablesaw.

Just sayin, who's gonna buy this?????

[Rod Sheridan]

Someone who wants a slider that takes a large blade..............Regards, Rod.

[Jamie Buxton]

Maybe it is that Felder thinks they're not going to sell very many of these things. They have development costs which they can only spread over a small number of units, so the unit cost gets very big.

[Adam Herman]

Maybe it is that Felder thinks they're not going to sell very many of these things. They have development costs which they can only spread over a small number of units, so the unit cost gets very big.

maybe it does not fit in the smaller machines?
seems like you would pick your volume machines to roll out something new and spread the development cost. I don't know what they sell the most of though.

[Steve Demuth]

Probably already mentioned, but the Preventive Contact System DOES NOT destroy the blade and allows the operator to reset the system in seconds. The technology involves industrial magnets that flip polarity when triggered, causing the saw unit to drop below the cast iron table. This system was developed in conjunction with the University of Vienna and patented by Felder.


I have always been mystified as to why the Sawstop design uses destructive technology to stop the blade. Given the speed of detection and action, he could obviously just had the blade retract and brake the motor electrically. Looks like Felder got it right.

More interesting is the zero-touch detection. Would like to know more about that.

[Joe Jensen]

maybe it does not fit in the smaller machines?
seems like you would pick your volume machines to roll out something new and spread the development cost. I don't know what they sell the most of though.

I'd think most of these over $30,000 sliding saws are going into commercial shops. For shops that use a big slider as a part of the workflow, a sawstop is not a replacement. I'd think liability mitigation would be the motivation and once insurance companies become aware the insurance discounts for having one would be meaningful. I would assume they did some market research and concluded that enough would pay $10,000 incremental to get a return on investment. As more alternatives hit the market the price would undoubtedly drop.

[Erik Loza]

Guys, Germany alone is something like 30% of Felder's market. Over there, huge sliders with big blades and cutting software are still a big thing. New construction is still hip-and valley rafters out of solid lumber, etc. None of those shops would take a cabinet saw if you gave it to them. Here in the states, it's 99% sheet goods, so we have nested routers and the slider (if one) is "the old machine they held onto". So, naturally, Felder KG will cater to their biggest market, first.

I was talking to a millshop recently that actually could have used a huge slider. They wanted 2-way tilt, which is another premium feature, but otherwise wanted as basic a machine as possible. No software, no bells or whistles. The owner just couldn't get his head around the fact that he needed to step up to a top-of-the-line model to get specialized features. You got to pay to play. When my wife and I were shopping for her new Mini Cooper, there were a few features I wanted that were part of a some package, of which I wanted none of the rest of those options. But, to get the one or two features I wanted, you had to step up. Complain if you like but please don't tell me you can't understand this, LOL.

Erik

[Dave Sabo]

Erik - can’t you special order a MINI built any way you’d like?

It’s often possible , dealers hate it though. I know it’s still possible at Volvo because I did it last year. More $$$, had to wait. Also got the hard sell that it wasn’t possible - and then why don’t you take this one or that one, but it was doable.

[Jim Becker]

Dave, most vehicle manufacturers do not offer a la carté options anymore other than maybe at the top end of the brands in the market. I'm honestly surprised that Volvo would still entertain that. (I still factory order vehicles anyway) For the tools we all like to talk about, Felder's business model has offered more customization that is commonly available, IMHO. But yes, that can translate into a longer wait. When I recently had a conversation with Sam Blasco about something, it was clear that "the common package" would result in a tool in the shop much faster than ordering something that had to be built.

[Mike Henderson]

Very interesting technology but the price??? I hope they can downsize it to a cabinet saw. It would be great if we had multiple companies with multiple technologies.

Someone complained that SawStop didn't do something like this. But remember that Sawstop was a pioneer - the technology was developed many years ago. Once the idea is out there smart people start coming up with better ideas.

Mike

[Erik Loza]

Erik - can’t you special order a MINI built any way you’d like?

Dave, they might imply that but that was not our experience. If you wanted Bluetooth stereo, for example, you had get the whole backup camera package. I really doubt there is any truly a-la-carte vehicle out there. Each vehicle would then technically be a custom build, which kills your economy-of-scale in manufacturing costs and ergo, your margin. It's the same way in the machinery industry.


When I recently had a conversation with Sam Blasco about something, it was clear that "the common package" would result in a tool in the shop much faster than ordering something that had to be built.

I always felt that they had a very smart sales model that way. Based on some of the conversations happening on our side, I sense that 2021 might create a sort of paradigm shift for Felder USA as far how/what we stock here in the US. Hopefully tighten up lead times on the smaller machines and not so much inventory of machines that we only sell a handful of each year.


Very interesting technology but the price??? I hope they can downsize it to a cabinet saw. It would be great if we had multiple companies with multiple technologies. Someone complained that SawStop didn't do something like this. But remember that Sawstop was a pioneer - the technology was developed many years ago. Once the idea is out there smart people start coming up with better ideas.

Mike

Mike, remember that there was a legitimate alternative option (the Bosch Reaxx) but that other company litigated them out of the market. So, if someone wants to point a finger, you know who to point it at. As far as the PCS system coming into smaller saws, I wouldn't hold my breath. It's an expensive and complicated system (for example, it requires a separate main saw group and a separate scoring group, which are all one component group in 99% of sliders). My guess is that even if we could offer it on an entry level slider, it would make the machine so huge that it would defeat the purpose. But that's just my gut reaction.

Erik

[Rod Sheridan]

SawStop is for a 10 inch blade in an inexpensive saw, PCS is for. 16 inch blade in a commercial saw.

SS is a great system, if they built a system strong enough to drop the blade and motor without losing accuracy, the saw would be triple the weight Nd four times the cost.

Regards, Rod

[Jim Becker]

Erik, I think that your employer would do well to adopt and stock some "thoughtfully optioned" models to help with lead times from order to delivery which equals cash flow for them and commissions for you. :) Custom order is great for the folks who really need that, but I think in North America, availability could improve nicely that way, COVID or no COVID.

And you really do want a backup camera...best thing since sliced bread. :)

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, remember that there was a legitimate alternative option (the Bosch Reaxx) but that other company litigated them out of the market. So, if someone wants to point a finger, you know who to point it at. As far as the PCS system coming into smaller saws, I wouldn't hold my breath. It's an expensive and complicated system (for example, it requires a separate main saw group and a separate scoring group, which are all one component group in 99% of sliders). My guess is that even if we could offer it on an entry level slider, it would make the machine so huge that it would defeat the purpose. But that's just my gut reaction.

Erik

Note that I said that SawStop was a pioneer in the technology. Bosch didn't come along for a good many years. SawStop sued them for patent infringement and prevailed in court. I see nothing wrong with asserting your valid patents.

Mike

[Alan Lightstone]

And you really do want a backup camera...best thing since sliced bread. :)

And you really, really want a full-time rear view camera. Much better still - no blind spots.

[Davis Young]

I wonder besides not destroying the blade, is there even a cartridge that needs replacing after an event? If not, this would even be beyond the Bosch system that was pulled from he US market after their patent dispute with SawStop.

[Jim Becker]

And you really, really want a full-time rear view camera. Much better still - no blind spots.
I actually have that with my Subaru Ascent Touring...the rear view mirror has a camera in the back and I use that full time instead of the "mirror" mirror, if you catch my drift. I much prefer the digital image. And when backing up, the regular backup camera is really good including laterally due to wide angle. Let's also say that when I backup to hook up my utility trailer, I put it "on the ball" first try every time. True no-blind spots requires a 360º camera system which is on some vehicles and coming on more down the road.

I don't think that table saws will have rear-view cameras anytime soon, however.... :) :D

[Mike Henderson]

I wonder besides not destroying the blade, is there even a cartridge that needs replacing after an event? If not, this would even be beyond the Bosch system that was pulled from he US market after their patent dispute with SawStop.

The literature says "No". You just press a button and you're back in business.

Mike

[Jacques Gagnon]

I wonder besides not destroying the blade, is there even a cartridge that needs replacing after an event? If not, this would even be beyond the Bosch system that was pulled from he US market after their patent dispute with SawStop.


Davis:

There is a good illustration of the system in the video. Based on what I saw, the answer to your question is no. Nothing gets damaged; nothing needs to be replaced and the "reset time" is measured in seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqV316iaBls

J.

[johnny means]

Griggio had a similar product for a while before they went bankrupt or whatever. I believe they had used Sawstop's sensing technology. Nice to see that hope springs eternal.

[Peter Kelly]

Was just thinking that but the Unica Safe system Griggio had didn’t destroy the blade?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ok. As most people know here, I'm a tremendous advocate for technology to allow you to keep your digits intact, after making a mistake on your tablesaw. And have put my money where my mouth is in buying two SawStops. And have a shop full of Felder machines. So serious loyalty to both brands. And I'm thrilled that another company is employing technology to make tablesaws safer.

That being said, $10K addition in cost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets say a $200 Forrest blade and $80 SawStop cartridge gets destroyed by triggering it. Rinse, repeat 36 times, and the technologies are comparable in cost.

Has anyone in the World triggered a SawStop 36 times? If so, they have no business using a tablesaw.

Just sayin, who's gonna buy this?????

I'd argue that if you need hotdog saving tech, you have no business using a tablesaw.

Personally I will never allow any SS type tech in my shop because if one tool of the 100 or so in there has it, all it does is dulls the senses and makes the rest of them more dangerous. Better to just assume they will all bite and treat them all with the same caution.

[Rod Sheridan]

Erik, I think that your employer would do well to adopt and stock some "thoughtfully optioned" models to help with lead times from order to delivery which equals cash flow for them and commissions for you. :) Custom order is great for the folks who really need that, but I think in North America, availability could improve nicely that way, COVID or no COVID.

And you really do want a backup camera...best thing since sliced bread. :)

Jim, we do stock popular models in Canada, I’m sure the same thing happens in the US.

In Canada our warehouse looks like a ghost town, can’t keep anything in stock....Rod

[Erik Loza]

Was just thinking that but the Unica Safe system Griggio had didn’t destroy the blade?

Peter, I think the challenge for those we might refer to as the "minor players" is the distribution network. That system might work but I still have no idea how someone would actually guy such a machine and if you would, the next challenge is service. You know all this, of course.

A well-know German slider manufacturer is apparently developing their own blade-stopping system. I have videos and still photos if it. It uses a laser, mounted on the overhead guard, to trigger the system. I have no idea how the blade stopping feature works but it's an entirely different triggering mechanism. But, I don't believe it's available yet or any time soon. My Austrian buddies said it was at LIGNA 2019, but a non-functional prototype. When/if, it sees the light of day, same deal as us: Your buy-in is going to start at about $50K.

Erik

[Peter Kelly]

$50k would buy you an entry level beam saw 🙄

[Erik Loza]

$50k would buy you an entry level beam saw 

Sorry, Peter: NOPE :D

[Warren Lake]

way less at any auction, big stuff takes the hardest hit. You still have loading and buyers premium, price is canadian dollars. I dont pay much attention to big stuff I dont need but enough to see it from time to time, here is a recent one. For those of you in the big leagues whats the new price on this?


L451677

[Peter Kelly]

https://www.scmgroup.com/en/scmwood/products/joinery-machines.c884/sliding-table-saws.896/class-px-350i.92644
https://www.scmgroup.com/website/var/tmp/image-thumbnails/50000/53429/thumb__SCM-imgProdotto/class%20px%20350i@2x.jpeg

[Jim Becker]

Those big things are too pretty to get sawdust on...

[Erik Loza]

https://www.scmgroup.com/en/scmwood/products/joinery-machines.c884/sliding-table-saws.896/class-px-350i.92644

So, that's something in between a sliding panel saw and a beam saw, yet neither. I've never seen one in a shop. Be curious to talk with someone who has hands-on experience and get their impressions.

Erik

[Peter Kelly]

There’s actually been a couple other iterations of the same thing from Altendorf and Fimal / Paoloni. Seems like a pretty cool concept if someone can make it work financially. SCM seems pretty intent on this.

https://wtp.hoechsmann.com/en/lexikon/30108/fimal_concept_350
https://wtp.hoechsmann.com/en/lexikon/20344/2


https://youtu.be/Hm4Oss51p7k

[johnny means]

I'd argue that if you need hotdog saving tech, you have no business using a tablesaw.

Personally I will never allow any SS type tech in my shop because if one tool of the 100 or so in there has it, all it does is dulls the senses and makes the rest of them more dangerous. Better to just assume they will all bite and treat them all with the same caution.

Whatever. That's an absolutely ridiculous line of reasoning.

[Erik Loza]

There’s actually been a couple other iterations of the same thing from Altendorf and Fimal / Paoloni. Seems like a pretty cool concept if someone can make it work financially. SCM seems pretty intent on this.

My impression is that this machine might have appeal in Europe or Asia but not sure about the US. In my experience, shops who need a beam saw, need a BEAM SAW. I feel the same way about our through-feed CNC machining centers. Good for Europe, where shops have no space, but never really caught on here in the US.

Erik

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Whatever. That's an absolutely ridiculous line of reasoning.

Defend? Saw a guy hit his finger with a jig saw because the oscillator didn't bite him when he did it. His words as he was putting a bandaid on his luckily lightly wounded finger. Pretty stupid what risks the human mind gets used to if they cease to be a risk. Pretty soon I'm buying cartridges/blades and firing people because they became complacent on a SS, or worse sending someone to the ER because they were complacent on a non SS machine. Better to just not allow complacency. If you've been in the military you know that drill sergeants don't hone soldiers by allowing complacency or comfort zones. Same mindset when developing safe shop skills.

[Peter Kelly]

way less at any auction, big stuff takes the hardest hit. You still have loading and buyers premium, price is canadian dollars. I dont pay much attention to big stuff I dont need but enough to see it from time to time, here is a recent one. For those of you in the big leagues whats the new price on this?


L451677Certainly way north of $100k USD depending on what bells and whistles were included 18 years ago. Holzma / Homag are pretty well top of the pile with beam saws.

[Erik Loza]

Certainly way north of $100k USD depending on what bells and whistles were included 18 years ago. Holzma / Homag are pretty well top of the pile with beam saws.

Funny: We (US sales team) actually have Mayer beam saw training via zoom, from Austria, in a couple of weeks. I've been around plenty of beam saws and know know they operate but never actually gotten any formal sales training, so this will be interesting.

Erik

[Peter Kelly]

All you'd need to do is provide better post-sale support than Stiles. Shouldn't take much.

[Erik Loza]

All you'd need to do is provide better post-sale support than Stiles. Shouldn't take much.

LOL, Peter. Seriously, though, Stiles is serving an entirely different customer than we are. Technically, we "should" be competing with them here in the US but so much of ours sales are to the standard/classical machine machine market that it reality, it doesn't really work out that way.

Erik

[Erik Loza]

Just got back from Vegas. The Kappa 550 with PCS feature won "Challenger's Award". Spent a fair amount of time playing with it and this feature is awesome. In fact, somewhat disappointing in that nothing exciting happens when the blade gets triggered. I think everyone (myself included) was somehow expecting loud bangs or something like that and in reality, there is an audible thump but that's all. Then, you just reset the blade. The whole process takes around 10 seconds. I'll create a separate thread with a bunch of show pics but here is a quick one:

Erik

461778

[johnny means]

nothing exciting happens when the blade gets triggered

Erik

461778
Sounds good to me.