What wood would you use?

[brian zawatsky]

I was asked to remake this lattice assembly. Its pretty punky in spots, and clearly pretty severely warped as you can see in the pic. Overall its about 4' x 8'. Obviously the wood species needs to be rot and insect resistant as well as dimensionally stable. The slats in the lattice grid are about 11/16" thick and 1 1/4" wide. Biggest concern is keeping the longer slats straight & flat. My plan is to use rift sawn white oak. I had also considered using western red cedar, spanish cedar, or perhaps sapele; I just don't think that any of these options will provide the necessary dimensional stability. Any thoughts? Other species that I may be overlooking?
410556

[scott lipscomb]

My choice would be clear, WRC...but I'm on the left coast.

[Joel David Katz]

I'd consider redwood.

[Mel Fulks]

I think white oak is a good choice. The problem with conifers is that if its not quarter sawn you will get some sharp edges
from grain lifting on the heart side. Your project will be seen on both sides, the white oak will be pretty much the same on
both sides.

[steven c newman]

Ipe.....Buy a couple 2 x 4 x 8' Ipe boards, and rip down for the slats

[Wayne Cannon]

Modern day redwood is not nearly as rot and insect resistant as old growth redwood -- close to Douglas fir, as I recall. I would use cedar, white oak, or cypress.

[Scott Winners]

I bet mahogany or teak would last about forever if the budget would spring for it.

[Jim Koepke]

Will this be painted or left bare?

Any way to determine what was originally used?

jtk

[brian zawatsky]

Will this be painted or left bare?

Any way to determine what was originally used?

jtk

It will be painted. Difficult to tell what was used originally. The house is over 100 years old, and the wood has gone very gray - at least where I was able to flake off some paint. It may have been a cedar or fir, the softness would indicate that. I doubt I would find suitable fir to replicate what was most likely old growth timber when it was logged a century ago.

[William Fretwell]

‘Simple’ projects like this are never that simple. Why was the trellis there? Originally it may have been for a climbing fragrant flowering plant, a nice welcome at the door. It may have started life unpainted but paint added as it aged. It has gaps all the way round except where needed at the brick floor.
If they intend to add a plant then I would use WRC and leave it unpainted, it will look better and last long enough. You can add a planter as part of the design.
If they insist on paint then I would use teak for dimensional stability.
Clearly when you start painting, the post needs to be done, the bottom of which needs repair, the wall needs to be done, heck the whole house may need to be done!

[Warren Mickley]

I would not use western red cedar; it is weak and splintery and a person who grabs the trellis to keep their balance could break it. Using rift sawn or quarter sawn would not make a difference in this application. You still would have bowing issues.

What we did in the past for lattice and trellis work is to frame the panel with heavier material. Not just slightly wider, but thicker also. This gives your work strength and dimensional stability that the present design did not have. Using a frame of 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 would add great strength and stability. You could also make horizontal rails just above and below the circle that are smaller than the outside frame, but a little heavier than the other lattice pieces. This would give more strength and interest. Having the lattice members all one dimension makes it look cheap.

Here is some stuff from Roubo, note heavier framework:
410564
Here is Roubo's L'art du Treillageur, illustrations at the end of the book.

https://books.google.com/books?id=VQBYAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA1309&dq=roubo+menuisier+jardins&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9o77aycDiAhWB1lkKHeOcC90Q6AEIUzAG#v=on epage&q=roubo%20menuisier%20jardins&f=false

[brian zawatsky]

‘Simple’ projects like this are never that simple. Why was the trellis there? Originally it may have been for a climbing fragrant flowering plant, a nice welcome at the door. It may have started life unpainted but paint added as it aged. It has gaps all the way round except where needed at the brick floor.
If they intend to add a plant then I would use WRC and leave it unpainted, it will look better and last long enough. You can add a planter as part of the design.
If they insist on paint then I would use teak for dimensional stability.
Clearly when you start painting, the post needs to be done, the bottom of which needs repair, the wall needs to be done, heck the whole house may need to be done!

Yes the whole house needs to be painted, but fortunately I am not a painter LOL! I am replacing the bases on both columns also, and plan to alter the design of the trellis slightly to get the bottom rail up off the brick. Thanks for the suggestions.

[brian zawatsky]

I would not use western red cedar; it is weak and splintery and a person who grabs the trellis to keep their balance could break it. Using rift sawn or quarter sawn would not make a difference in this application. You still would have bowing issues.

What we did in the past for lattice and trellis work is to frame the panel with heavier material. Not just slightly wider, but thicker also. This gives your work strength and dimensional stability that the present design did not have. Using a frame of 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 would add great strength and stability. You could also make horizontal rails just above and below the circle that are smaller than the outside frame, but a little heavier than the other lattice pieces. This would give more strength and interest. Having the lattice members all one dimension makes it look cheap.

Here is some stuff from Roubo, note heavier framework:
410564
Here is Roubo's L'art du Treillageur, illustrations at the end of the book.

https://books.google.com/books?id=VQBYAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA1309&dq=roubo+menuisier+jardins&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9o77aycDiAhWB1lkKHeOcC90Q6AEIUzAG#v=on epage&q=roubo%20menuisier%20jardins&f=false

Thanks Warren. The only solution to the bowing/warping problem that I could conceive of is a heavier frame, glad to see I was not mistaken in that thought.

[Jerry Olexa]

I'd use cedar for most of it but beef up the frame with a heavier, stronger wood....The paint will
offer some protection.

[Richard Verwoest]

Steel flat bar.

[Jim Koepke]

The availability of various woods changes from region to region.

One way to solve your quandary could be to visit lumber yards in your area and ask which woods have the qualities you are seeking.

Online searches for > weather resistant wood < will offer some answers like this:

https://www.woodmagazine.com/materials-guide/lumber/outdoor-lumber

Not all of those featured will be available, at least inexpensively, in all areas.

jtk

[Doug Dawson]

I would not use western red cedar; it is weak and splintery and a person who grabs the trellis to keep their balance could break it. Using rift sawn or quarter sawn would not make a difference in this application. You still would have bowing issues.


Agreed. WRC is rather brittle, and a plant growing on a trellis made of it could easily pull it to pieces (unless its one of those namby pamby plants like a clematis or something.) Or an errant child.

Somebody else suggested teak, but that's an oily wood that requires IMO some advanced prep to get paint to stick to it properly.

White oak sounds like a nice choice, bowing wouldn't matter too much, after all it is fixed in a lattice.

[lowell holmes]

I have had good luck with cypress.

https://www.woodmagazine.com/materials-guide/lumber/outdoor-lumber

[Jim Matthews]

If not Cypress or Cedar, a PVC product like Azek has remarkable working properties, and can be joined with PVC pipe cement. It can be readily shaped with hand planes and saws.

It's impervious to foul weather and remains gleaming White in open, sunny conditions.

It has ZERO structural strength.

[Brian Holcombe]

Honduran Mahogany would be my first choice.

[James Waldron]

Honduran Mahogany would be my first choice.

But only with a paying customer!

[Dave Anderson NH]

I'm with Brian on the mahogany. A NH millwork outfit I know specializes in restoration work like windows and doors for places like the Boston Public Library, Harvard, the Museum of Fine Arts, etc. They use only pattern grade mahogany for its stability, longevity, and paintability.

[brian zawatsky]

Thanks for weighing in guys. Ipe and teak are out of the question; ipe is a pain to work with and teak's oily-ness make it difficult to both glue and finish. Redwood and cedar are both out because I really think they're both too soft and the durability of presently available stock is suspect IMO. Will probably go with mahogany if its not astronomically expensive.

[andy bessette]

I have had good luck with cypress...

This is a good choice for outdoors.

[Jamie Buxton]

You're building this Neaderthal-style? That is, you're cutting all those joints by hand? If so, I'd go with a softwood -- WRC, or the like. Hardwood like white oak would be stronger, but I'd be cutting the joints with a dado head on a table saw.

[Mel Fulks]

Heart cypress is great, but expensive. Most that's available here is not heart .

[Doug Dawson]

Thanks for weighing in guys. Ipe and teak are out of the question; ipe is a pain to work with and teak's oily-ness make it difficult to both glue and finish. Redwood and cedar are both out because I really think they're both too soft and the durability of presently available stock is suspect IMO. Will probably go with mahogany if its not astronomically expensive.

Here's a good discussion of the varieties of mahogany:

https://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/wood-conversations/mahogany/

They include prices, relative to each species of mahogany and which are probably _proportional_ to what you'd pay locally in various areas of the US.

[Brian Holcombe]

I pay less for Honduran than teak and I don’t need to replace all of my tooling when I’m done with something in Honduran, the same cannot be said for teak.

[brian zawatsky]

I priced Honduran mahogany at about 6.50 a bdft, so that’s probably what I’ll do. It’s nice stuff to work with, and more dimensionally stable than sapele (although more expensive too). Honestly if I bought rift or 1/4’d white oak it would be just as expensive.

[brian zawatsky]

You're building this Neaderthal-style? That is, you're cutting all those joints by hand? If so, I'd go with a softwood -- WRC, or the like. Hardwood like white oak would be stronger, but I'd be cutting the joints with a dado head on a table saw.

I haven’t totally decided yet. Even if I do machine cut the joinery, I put the wood selection question here because this is pretty much the only sub-forum that I use. Also I trust the opinions & expertise of some of the members here so it’s less like drinking from a firehose when you ask a question of this type.

[Brian Holcombe]

Honduran is a nice choice, I have a client with s number of Honduran pieces and they look just the same as when I made them over the past few years.

[Doug Dawson]

I priced Honduran mahogany at about 6.50 a bdft, so that’s probably what I’ll do. It’s nice stuff to work with, and more dimensionally stable than sapele (although more expensive too). Honestly if I bought rift or 1/4’d white oak it would be just as expensive.

It just seems kind of weird to be painting honduran mahogany, which is not practically a renewable resource, and is becoming increasingly protected. Better to save it for actual furniture projects? It's not something I would burn.

[andy bessette]

Honduran mahogany is very nice to work with, but cypress is generally known to be much more rot resistant.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I priced Honduran mahogany at about 6.50 a bdft, so that’s probably what I’ll do. It’s nice stuff to work with, and more dimensionally stable than sapele (although more expensive too). Honestly if I bought rift or 1/4’d white oak it would be just as expensive.

Another vote for Cypress.

[Prashun Patel]

If it will be painted perhaps an composite trim material would be more appropriate.

[lowell holmes]

White oak does well outside also.

[brian zawatsky]

It just seems kind of weird to be painting honduran mahogany, which is not practically a renewable resource, and is becoming increasingly protected. Better to save it for actual furniture projects? It's not something I would burn.

There is such a thing as paint grade mahogany, you know. I worked for a restoration company years ago that specialized in restoring early 19th century homes & buildings. We used mahogany in lots of porch floors, cornices, and exterior trim. All were painted. Honduran mahogany is also plantation grown now, I believe.

[brian zawatsky]

If it will be painted perhaps an composite trim material would be more appropriate.

The home is over a century old, and is all wood. The siding is wood shake, shutters are wood with nice wrought iron dogs, wood cornice, porch posts and capitals are wood. I'm not going to insult the homeowner by suggesting she install plastic trellises. Maybe its just me, but that kind of misses the mark IMO.

[Brian Holcombe]

Wood aside, personally I would want to increase the depth of those pieces to strengthen it but without making it significantly heavier visually. In fact I may make them thinner and deeper. I’ve done this to my shoji work in recent years, just slightly but it has a nice effect.

Latticework is delicate simply for the fact that it is made with half lap joints. If the assembly is made of uniform thickness then alternating sides for the half lap cuts will create a woven structure that is not as delicate.

I agree very much with Warren’s assessment, a frame will help that work a lot and would improve the appearance.

[Pete Taran]

Brian,

Have you considered the center part of trex or composite flooring? It's got wood in it and is impregnated with plastic. You could plane off the plastic outer section and thickness and rip that stuff to suit. Painted you won't be able to tell the difference. Just a thought.

[brian zawatsky]

Wood aside, personally I would want to increase the depth of those pieces to strengthen it but without making it significantly heavier visually. In fact I may make them thinner and deeper. I’ve done this to my shoji work in recent years, just slightly but it has a nice effect.

Latticework is delicate simply for the fact that it is made with half lap joints. If the assembly is made of uniform thickness then alternating sides for the half lap cuts will create a woven structure that is not as delicate.

I agree very much with Warren’s assessment, a frame will help that work a lot and would improve the appearance.



Yes I'm in total agreement with you and Warren on framing the lattice panel with more substantial stock to increase the strength and visual appeal. Alternating the half laps is a great idea, I hadn't considered that. Seems as though it would almost hold the assembly in tension and counteract any tendency to bow in one direction or the other. Somewhat more complicated but not too much, and would be worth it in the long run. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Brian Holcombe]

Pete,

I helped my father throw away a deck made with Trex and replace it with Ipe about 8-9 years ago. If I'm being kind, I'll say that Trex did not meet expectations for longevity. Ipe has not even flinched under direct sunlight.

Also, a composite without the plastic layer is not going to hold joinery, it will crumble when you press the half laps together.

This is Honduran mahogany after two or three years outside (not in direct sunlight, just outside). There has been hardly any dimension changes, the joints are tight as when I made them.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/fullsizeoutput_e6b.jpeg

[brian zawatsky]

Brian,

Have you considered the center part of trex or composite flooring? It's got wood in it and is impregnated with plastic. You could plane off the plastic outer section and thickness and rip that stuff to suit. Painted you won't be able to tell the difference. Just a thought.

I didn't think it was possible to paint Trex or other plastic/composites.

[Brian Holcombe]

Yes I'm in total agreement with you and Warren on framing the lattice panel with more substantial stock to increase the strength and visual appeal. Alternating the half laps is a great idea, I hadn't considered that. Seems as though it would almost hold the assembly in tension and counteract any tendency to bow in one direction or the other. Somewhat more complicated but not too much, and would be worth it in the long run. Thanks for the suggestion!

My pleasure! It will help a lot, especially in times when the wood swells.

[andy bessette]

...

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/fullsizeoutput_e6b.jpeg

Nice piece.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks, Andy! Much appreciated.

[Anthony Albano]

cnc Extira, wash with soapy water, paint

[Dan Carroll]

It will be painted. Difficult to tell what was used originally. The house is over 100 years old, and the wood has gone very gray - at least where I was able to flake off some paint. It may have been a cedar or fir, the softness would indicate that. I doubt I would find suitable fir to replicate what was most likely old growth timber when it was logged a century ago.
At that age it is also very likely bald cypress. Given that you are in PA, it is far more likely cypress than cedar. Fur would not last that long. Cypress will turn gray with age.

[Tom Bender]

Brian
That place looks amazing. Can you share more, maybe in a new post?