Smoothing plane

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Dear Neanders,

I am creating my basic plane set. I started with a LV block plane and after a few months I went to an also LV, Jack plane with multiple blades (actually two but two others on their way).

I am now considerring a smoothing plane and I need your advice.

A couple years ago I really thought cabinet scrappers could replace satisfactory a smoothing plane so I went to the way of block and Jack combined with scrappers for all my tasks... perhaps I am wrong. When considering a smoothing plane I also faced another doubt: either a classical LV no. 4 or 4 1/2 or a high end Japanese smoothing plane like Tsunezaburo azumashuseki (Blue 2 steel).

You guys, way more experient than myself with those hand tools, perhaps could compare card scrappers, traditional smoothing planes and Japanese ones for an amateur woodworking used to power tools but starting with hand tools also.

Thanks in advance for your input. It is very appreciated.

[Jim Koepke]

Dear Neanders,

I am creating my basic plane set. I started with a LV block plane and after a few months I went to an also LV, Jack plane with multiple blades (actually two but two others on their way).

I am now considerring a smoothing plane and I need your advice.

A couple years ago I really thought cabinet scrappers could replace satisfactory a smoothing plane so I went to the way of block and Jack combined with scrappers for all my tasks... perhaps I am wrong. When considering a smoothing plane I also faced another doubt: either a classical LV no. 4 or 4 1/2 or a high end Japanese smoothing plane like Tsunezaburo azumashuseki (Blue 2 steel).

You guys, way more experient than myself with those hand tools, perhaps could compare card scrappers, traditional smoothing planes and Japanese ones for an amateur woodworking used to power tools but starting with hand tools also.

Thanks in advance for your input. It is very appreciated.

My first question is about the LV Jack plane, is it a bevel down design with a chip breaker? If yes, why so many blades? Do you plan on having different cambers?

The answer to your need may require more information on what kind of woods you use. For me, North Pacific firs and common North American hardwoods.

For some of the hardwoods available in other parts of the world a bevel up plane with different bevel angles might yield a better result.

For me, the bevel down planes with a chip breaker produce beautiful results.

As always, 410555

jtk

[Joel David Katz]

Get yourself a Stanley #4, learn how to make it sing, and if you decide you want to upgrade to a higher-end plane, you won't be wasting your dough.

[Jason Baker IX]

I agree with Joel. Don't buy a Stradivarius when you are learning to play the violin. That being said, you can't go wrong with a LV or LN #4. I couldn't imagine replacing a #4 with a card scraper.

[Jim Koepke]

Get yourself a Stanley #4, learn how to make it sing, and if you decide you want to upgrade to a higher-end plane, you won't be wasting your dough.


I agree with Joel. Don't buy a Stradivarius when you are learning to play the violin. That being said, you can't go wrong with a LV or LN #4. I couldn't imagine replacing a #4 with a card scraper.

That would be an excellent way to go if Stanley planes are not too difficult to find around Sao Paulo, Brazil.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

I agree a #3, #4 or $#4 1/2 would be a good compliment with block, # 5 and scrapers.

I do like having a mix of O1 and A2 steel in my planes. I do think A2 lasts longer at high bevel angles, say above 30 degrees; but I prefer O1 for lower bevel angles in softer woods. I haven't tried PMV11, I am sure I will someday.

If you find a decent Stanley Bailey in those sizes already imported into Brazil for reasonable money that would be a fine place to start. Local to me the vintage blades are often not usable, but replacement blades from Lee Valley are cheaper than new planes.

Best wishes and good luck whatever you decide. Except for the current production Made in China #4 currently selling the US for about US$35. Painted a couple different colors with different labels on it, plastic clamshell package - it's garbage. If you need a scrub plane, OK, sure it can be tuned for that chore, it is otherwise a plane shaped object.

[Warren Mickley]

I abandoned scrapers, bevel up planes, high angle planes, and sandpaper all over forty years ago. All deliver poor surfaces. You want a bevel down, double iron plane for efficiency and for a fine surface.

In your case I would recommend either a #3 or #4 plane to learn on; stay away from exotic steels.

[Robert Engel]

Osvaldo,

Its great you are looking to hand tool work I guarantee it will elevate your craftsmanship. It is also great you are looking at quality tools starting out. ONe of the biggest mistakes I made starting out was buying inexpensive tools. They are difficult to learn on, inhibit skill development, and result in a lot of frustration and doubt about your abilities.

Scrapers are a totally different animal than planes and cannot realistically replace them other than for highly figured wood prone to tear out. They are meant for a different purpose and work in a different way.

Although I agree somewhat with Joel, IMO if you have the funds I would go for a premium plane and be done with it. Vintage Stanleys are a great way to start on a budget & are good planes, but can be difficult to find without an Ebay/fleabay adventure. There are a few guys around that sell reconditioned Stanley Baileys.

Another alternative is the WoodRiver planes sold by WoodCraft. I actually have several of them along with LN's and I have to say they actually compare quite well. I expect if you get one you'll be hanging on to it. No, they are not ready out of the box like a LN, & you'll have to expect to spend a little time flattening the iron, easing some edges and cleaning off the cosmoline. But at 1/3 the price for that's no tradeoff.

Personally I started with vintage Stanleys, and then bought a WR 4 to try. I ended up selling all my old Stanley and since have bought WR #'s 6 & 7. (Side note: I find I go to the #6 more often than any other. It is also my shooting plane).

That said, I have a 4 1/2 LN and its the one plane I can totally rely on for surface smoothing.

I have a LN #5 LA jack, which I purchased as a shooting/end grain plane. In my hands it is too light to work well as a shooting plane and lumber over 3/4" thick. It is a plane I find a rarely use anymore except for paring dovetails on drawers.

[Derek Cohen]

Osvaldo, the following are great smoothers. All different, but each capable of the highest level of performance:

Veritas Custom #4 (mine has a 42 degree frog with PM-V11 blade).

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ApothecaryChestTheDrawersAreDone_html_224e92e.jpg

LN #3 (with 45 degree frog and PM-V11 blade).

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ApothecaryChestPartTwo_html_mb48573.jpg

HNT Gordon smoothing plane (with 60 degree bed and single bevel 1/4" thick O1 blade)

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20HNT%20Gordon%20Smoother%20and%20Trying%20Pla ne_html_m3515f860.jpg

Veritas BU Smoother (12 degree bed, with 62 degree cutting angle using a PM-V11 blade)

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Kist_html_m408243f.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Doug Dawson]

That said, I have a 4 1/2 LN and its the one plane I can totally rely on for surface smoothing.

If you're going to get just one smoothing plane, I would highly recommend the LN #4. It will be perfect right out of the box, only needing a honing.

I have the LN #4 1/2, and it's just too heavy for general smoothing use, IMO. It feels good, especially when you need the momentum, but it's tiring. After a few hours you will need a beverage (or two.)

A LN #3 would be good, you could use that thing all day long. As long as you also had something longer, like a #5 (at least.)

[Charles Guest]

That would be an excellent way to go if Stanley planes are not too difficult to find around Sao Paulo, Brazil.

jtk

No more difficult than Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen planes. One assumes that, no matter the case, shipping is likely to be involved.

[Jim Koepke]

No more difficult than Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen planes. One assumes that, no matter the case, shipping is likely to be involved.

If there are a lot of second hand dealers in the area, it may be easy to find something used.

If there is a store that services woodworkers, the LV or LN planes may also be available locally.

My position used to be everyone should look for used and learn how to rehabilitate a plane. Eventually it came to me that not everyone likes to fettle metal. Some do not have the time, others no experience. Then there are the folks who do not have a case of the vapors when seeing the price of a premium quality plane.

Then there is still my question about his jack plane. If it is bevel up, it might make sense for Osvaldo to purchase a bevel up smoother that shares the blade.

There are a few things to consider which have not been made clear enough to consider.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

+1 on this suggestion

[Joel David Katz]

Those are beautiful planes, Derek, and I own most of them myself. I've also got a majestic Clifton #3 that is to die for. Even so, Osvaldo wants to buy a plane and learn how to operate it and maintain it properly. I think it is far more sensible to spend $50 on a Stanley #4 in working condition than to spend $350 on a Lie Nielsen smoother as a starter hand plane.

Don't you?

[Derek Cohen]

Joel, I agree that a Stanley #4 is a great plane (actually, I prefer a #3, but they seem less common these days). A vintage Stanley #4 would be excellent to learn on ... if it does not require any work. Not all would-be hand plane users like to start out that way. I suspect that Osvaldo knows about vintage Stanleys - they are discussed often enough. Not sure what is available in Brazil, and Osvaldo was actually asking about premium planes: "either a classical LV no. 4 or 4 1/2 or a high end Japanese smoothing plane like Tsunezaburo azumashuseki (Blue 2 steel)" ... so new planes, or planes to aspire to ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Osvaldo Cristo]

As usually, lots of valuable advices.

Excuse me my late answer - I was travelling for business with restricted time to access my personal stuff.

First of all, my block and Jack planes are not from LV, but LN (Lee Nielsen). No idea if I typed wrongly or some "automatic spelling corrector" acted on that.

Yes, in Brazil we have Stanley planes commonly sold t several places but their quality are terrible. Actually I am in my second no. 4 as the first one I trashed three decades ago. My current no. 4 took me more than a couple of hours just to flat the base and set up the chip breaker... and it is yet difficult to get good results. Their controls are extremely flimsy and not precise. It is very difficult to use by a beginner... think on it like an old 200k mile Chevy with low maintenance: for a veteran driver it can work yet but for a novice, no way to work with it. I am a novice for hand planes. Yes, I also purchased a Stanley block plane... it was cheap at both meaning of the work. Imagine it doesn't have a cast iron base, just a metal sheet bended conveniently! Bottom line is local sold Stanley planes are bellow to indecent. I do not consider them.

I was to give up of any hand planes when I had a chance to handle a Lee Nielsen plane and from that moment I start to consider perhaps there are some salvation also for me!

Returning to my original question, I am afraid of traditional (including chip breaker) Stanley style planes and that is the main reason I really consider a traditional Japanese smooth plane instead the obvious step towards a Stanley no. 4 or no. 4 1/2. You guys opened my yes to forget my prejudice and re-consider the traditional approach also for smoothing. When I asked you I was very prone to the Japanese solution (yes, I know, it also have a chip breaker) and now I returned to square zero!

Thanks all for the valuable feedback!

All the best,

[Rob Luter]

I'm a little late to the game, but would like to offer up my experience. My smoothing plane journey started out on a path dictated by budget and a growing appreciation for vintage Stanley tools. I learned the fine points of fettling the planes to near mechanical perfection and honed my sharpening skills to a keen edge (pun intended). I got really good at both. My two main smoothers were Stanley Sweetheart era planes, a #4 and a #4 1/2, both with Hock replacement irons. Both were purchased for reasonable prices but had many hours of time invested in refurbishment and tuning.

Then I tried a Lie-Nielsen #4 1/2. Out of the box it performed better than my well tuned Stanley #4 1/2. I now have a Lie Nielsen #4 as well. Performance is equally excellent. All my vintage planes have found other homes. I could make the vintage stuff work well, but with the modern tools it was nearly effortless.

One thing I'll add based on your comments about chipbreakers....

A bevel up plane is an excellent choice. The Veritas Bevel Up Smoother that Derek suggests really works nice. The high angle irons work amazingly well on figured grain. I had the big brother to that plane (low angle jack) with the full blade complement and it worked well as a large smoother.

[john zulu]

You have the perfect combination so far. I would suggest the LV BUS which just is compatible with your Jack plane. There are many smoothers out there from Kanna down to #4. Just that with your combination BUS is a better alternative.
Check Derek Cohen website on his reviews. A well worth read.


Dear Neanders,

I am creating my basic plane set. I started with a LV block plane and after a few months I went to an also LV, Jack plane with multiple blades (actually two but two others on their way).

I am now considerring a smoothing plane and I need your advice.

A couple years ago I really thought cabinet scrappers could replace satisfactory a smoothing plane so I went to the way of block and Jack combined with scrappers for all my tasks... perhaps I am wrong. When considering a smoothing plane I also faced another doubt: either a classical LV no. 4 or 4 1/2 or a high end Japanese smoothing plane like Tsunezaburo azumashuseki (Blue 2 steel).

You guys, way more experient than myself with those hand tools, perhaps could compare card scrappers, traditional smoothing planes and Japanese ones for an amateur woodworking used to power tools but starting with hand tools also.

Thanks in advance for your input. It is very appreciated.

[Ron Kellison]

I would recommend that you add either the Lee Valley Bevel Up Smoother or the LV Small BUS. I have both of the Smoothers and alternate between them all the time. I also have the LV Jack and the LV 4 1/2. I'll be listing the 4 1/2 on eBay in the near future. I hardly EVER reach for it now!

[Richard Verwoest]

Since you already have the BU LN(#62?) why not stay with what you know(and like), and get the #164 LN smoothing plane.