Best small (secondary) Bandsaw?

[Allan Speers]

I have a Grizzly 5 HP 21" for resawing, and it's a lovely beast.

Stupidly, I recently sold my 14" Delta X5 (Doh!) and I'm immediately kicking myself.

So now I'm looking for a smallish bandsaw to dedicate to thinner blades & the work that goes with them.
I have a very old 12" Craftsman, but I've decided it's not worth refurbishing, even though it's pretty cool.
It's the round-post type, so replacement guides are nearly impossible, and also it has an issue with breaking wheel hangers.
------------------------

So... what would be your dream bandsaw, when resawing is not required?

I'm considering an Inca 710 which is available at a fairly good price, but I'm worried about parts availablility.
Also, I wouldn't be able to add a Carter Stabilizer, which I might want in the future.

And yes, I realize that the 710 is not a "portable benchtop" type of saw!
I'm looking for good, not necessarily small.

thx.

[Bruce Page]

I sold my Delta 14" when I bought my MM16 and quickly regretted it. I bought the little Rikon 10" as a secondary saw. I had to replace the tires once but it's been a good BS.

[Steve Eure]

My choice for a benchtop model would be the Rikon 10-306.
It's a 10" and a very nice saw for the money,

[John Lanciani]

You had it, you sold it, time to look for another Delta 14”...

[Mike Kees]

I kept my Delta 14'' just because of reading so many of these threads. Not sure what I would buy if I had sold it. Meanwhile it is safe at least till I get the 16'' WT rebuilt.

[Andrew Hughes]

14inch Powermatic. Because that’s what I have :)

[Mike Cutler]

I would recommend any of the 14" band saws. You had a Delta, and were happy with that, so no reason not to find another one used.
I have an 18" Rikon and a 14" Jet. I like having both.

[John K Jordan]

I would recommend any of the 14" band saws. You had a Delta, and were happy with that, so no reason not to find another one used.
I have an 18" Rikon and a 14" Jet. I like having both.

Same here, 18" Rikon and 14" Delta. I have the riser block on the Delta which gives more options if ever needed. I think it's an excellent combination.

JKJ

[David Buchhauser]

You had it, you sold it, time to look for another Delta 14”...

Ditto! Go get another Delta.

[Andrew Seemann]

I've got a 16" Jet for resawing, and I also have my 1996 Delta 14" bandsaw I bought new. The 14" Delta would probably be the last power tool I would give up.

A smaller bandsaw doesn't take up much less footprint than a 14" Delta and has nowhere the capability of the Delta.

[Cary Falk]

I think I would go with the 20" Rikon. I had the 10" craftsman until I sold it to get some space.

[Carl Beckett]

I recently sold my 14" Jet and downgraded to a 10" Rikon 306. (second saw is a Laguna 18" for larger material/resawing).

I primarily needed the space and the 10" sits on the end of a bench. I can lift and move it out into the main work area if needed.

There is a thread here on the experience. So far, the 10" has worked well.

If I had lots of space and money, I would probably just get one of the steel backed 14" units. It would be overkill for a lot of what I do on the smaller saw, but a nice fence and bigger table.

[Pete Staehling]

Just me but...
A 14" delta should be easy to find at a good price. There are a lot of them around and available. Since you owned one you know what to expect and won't be disappointed. If you have the room that is where I'd go. If space is at a premium a bench top model could be your answer. The 10" Rikon is top of the line in that class.

[Tom M King]

I have an old Delta 14" that was old when I got it decades ago. It does okay. Over the years, I've gradually added probably every upgrade to it possible. It's now one of three bandsaws. If I was looking for a 14" now, I'd just buy a new 10-326 or 1412, and I'm not one to normally buy new.

My other bandsaws are a 24" Centauro that stays set up for resaw, with a 1" blade, and a little 65 pound 10". About all the 14" gets used for lately is cutting circles. The 10" sees the most periodic use.

[glenn bradley]

I have a Grizzly 5 HP 21" for resawing, and it's a lovely beast.

Stupidly, I recently sold my 14" Delta X5 (Doh!) and I'm immediately kicking myself.

I did this as well and am amazed at how many of us pull this dumb stunt. I too went with the 10" Rikon 10-305 as it was being cleared out for the 10-306. Unless fence use on a smaller saw is significantly important to you the 305 will do you nicely. For the occasions that I use a fence on a smaller saw a quick shop made solution does nicely.

410452410453410454

[Darcy Warner]

30" tannewitz is a good secondary small saw.

[Matthew Hills]

I went with the 10" Inca.

I do use it quite a bit, although the throat depth does get in the way sometimes.
A 14" saw (or the inca 710) would be nicer in that respect,
but I wanted something more compact than my old 14" saw.

You can still get some parts from incamachines.com (https://incamachines.com), but pretty expensive.

The new 10" rikons seem to be the best new machines available in this size class.
Grizzly G0555 has been a long-standing value recommendation for 14" saws.
Otherwise I'd be looking for something vintage to scratch that itch.

Matt

[andy bessette]

My paired bandsaws are an Agazzani 20" and a MiniMax 16". Have owned several 14" Delta's.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

30" tannewitz is a good secondary small saw.

Can't disagree with that one!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I was working on a porch swing yesterday, cutting some curves on the 14" Delta while thinking about the 36" Oliver in the other room. That little Delta sure handles the second saw role well in my shop. We've had a discussion like this in the past on Sawmill, it was years ago and I remember it spawned several offshoot threads about modifications on the Delta, specifically tension springs. I had theorized that detensioning the blade was a ridiculous waste of time and I vowed to test mine by never detensioning it again. My Oliver gets babied (unnecessarily), and it is a great saw. My Delta hasn't even been untensioned or had any maintenance besides a few blades for 6 or 7 years (if my memory is correct), and it is a great little saw.

My meandering point is, just go get your 14" Delta back, it's a big saws perfect sidekick.

[Allan Speers]

You guys using 14" Delta's:

Do you ever find you need more throat?
That's obviously the reason I am "sorta' kinda' " considering that 20" throat Inca.

[Tom M King]

I can't think of anything I ever did with the 14" saw where I wished it had a larger throat. Round things, like table tops are centered outside of the blade.

I was given my 14" Delta decades ago. I upgraded the motor to a 1-1/2hp Baldor, riser, new bearings, tires a couple of times, guides, fence, spring, tensioning handle, and I can't remember what else. I don't know how much money I ended up putting into it, but it's still a flexible cast iron framed saw. When they first came out with the 10-326, and were selling it for 899 with free shipping, I remember wishing they had presented that before I'd put all the money, and effort into the Delta.

It does what I need a 14" saw to do, but for the difference in money I put into the Delta, I would have gladly paid the little extra for that Rikon. If I had to buy the Delta, I expect I would have more total in the old one, and it still doesn't have as nice anything as the newer steel framed one.

[Michael Costa]

I have a 9" ryobi as a second bandsaw and it's a piece of junk to say the least.

Let me guess... changing blades is starting to suck?

[Matthew Hills]

You guys using 14" Delta's:

Do you ever find you need more throat?
That's obviously the reason I am "sorta' kinda' " considering that 20" throat Inca.

I suppose a scroll saw is another alternative if your primary goals in an alternate are curved cuts and throat depth.

Matt

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Owning both a Delta 14" and a Rikon 10", I would say either is a worthy investment as a secondary. I paid 100 bucks for my used Rikon and got the Delta free. (stealth gloat). My $0.02 on a riser for the Delta, don't do it, the 3/4 hp or so motors can barely pull full height in hardwoods. Stock, its a fine "small" bandsaw. Size is relative. The Rikon is no slouch, IF you have a big bandsaw. I use that the most.

[John K Jordan]

... My $0.02 on a riser for the Delta, don't do it, the 3/4 hp or so motors can barely pull full height in hardwoods.

If I may comment on that, my 2-cents USD: The usefulness of a riser block may depend on what you cut, how you cut, the blade, and perhaps even how the saw is "tuned". I put a riser kit on my 14" Delta and have put truckloads of green wood and a lot of dry wood through it, a lot of it to the 12" capacity of the riser. Once I had the saw tuned and tensioned properly it worked flawlessly. I used it for everything from green log sections to dry dimensional lumber - a friend once brought a 12' 2x12 which we resawed into 4 thin boards. I've sawn everything from thick pine to white oak to ebony and other exotics, most of it to prepare woodturning blanks. All of my sawing was with 1/2" 3-tpi blades after I had experimented with lots of combinations.

Note that with the small motor I did have to push wood through the saw slowly (but not so slowly that the teeth were rubbing the wood instead of cutting) - the best speed is a fine line, especially with the an underpowered saw. Also the blade has to be sharp - I usually sharpened the blade at least two or three times before replacing it.

To tune the saw I made the wheels coplanar (when tensioned) with shims, replaced the stock tension spring and bracket with stronger versions from Iturra Design, and bought a tension gauge so I wouldn't be guessing at the tension. I found that 1/2" blades were all the saw could handle and it did well with them. Without proper blade and tension the saw was nearly useless with thick wood but it did OK with thinner stuff.

These days my primary saw is a more powerful 18" Rikon and I keep the Delta for small stuff. I still prefer a 1/2" 3-tpi blade on the bigger saw. (for the kind of sawing I do)

JKJ

[Mike Kees]

Curious, John what tension did you run the 1/2 blades on your Delta with riser ? Also after you added Iturra spring and bracket how much did that increase the saws ability to tension that 1/2 blade ?To the O.P. ,sorry not trying to hijack this thread.

[Randall J Cox]

Yes, did the same dumb move. Bought an 18" MiniMax, sold my totaly rebuilt 14" Delta. Regreted it, so I bought an old Delta 10" BS and just finished replacing all the bearings. Like both saws.... Randy

[Zachary Hoyt]

I have a Jet 18" with a 1/2" 3 TPI blade and last year I got a Rikon 10-305 that I use with a 1/4" blade for curvy cuts. It works great, it's not as powerful as the bigger saw but I can cut through 2-4" thick hardwoods and get a clean shape, it's just a little slow on the thick stuff. I didn't have room to have a 14" saw in the shop too, the 10" sits on top of a cabinet so it doesn't take any floor space and I can move it around easily.
Zach

[John K Jordan]

Curious, John what tension did you run the 1/2 blades on your Delta with riser ? Also after you added Iturra spring and bracket how much did that increase the saws ability to tension that 1/2 blade ?To the O.P. ,sorry not trying to hijack this thread.

Before upgrading the saw, I simply couldn't tension the blade properly on the Delta. According to Delta the saw will handle a 3/4" blade which must be marketing hype. Trying to tension a 3/4" blade to where it would cut correctly bent the tension bracket on the saw so it maxed out before it could even reach the tension I wanted on even the 1/2" blade.

Before getting the tension gauge I tried tensioning various blades with the flutter and the deflection methods. I still got horrible cuts in thick wood (say 8-12"), notably bowing, sometimes severe. (no problems cutting thin stock 2" or under.) After tensioning with the gauge the bowing stopped completely as did the increased friction that the bowing caused which made it difficult to cut at all. Sawing with the Delta was MUCH improved.

After replacing the tension bracket on the Delta with a stronger one from Iturra plus their stronger spring I could finally tension the way I wanted. I think I used around 15-18000 psi with the Lenox 1/2" flex blade on the Delta. Tensioning to over 20000 on the Delta required so much force on the adjustment knob I "felt" the saw would be stressed if I continued. I found that with the gauge setting the tension to those values made the built-in indicator go nearly the maximum on the scale. (On my 18" Rikon setting the tension on the 1/2" blade where I want it puts the indicator near the Rikon 1" mark.)

Contrary to what the tension gauge instructions say (set to tension recommended by the blade manufacturer) I had a difficult time finding what tension to use. I couldn't find it anywhere in the Lenox literature and the blade dealer didn't have a clue. Some said use the machine manufacturer's recommendation (non existent) and/or be sure not to exceed their tension (also not to be found). Several articles said most blades should be between 15000 and 20000 psi. The only chart I found was from Starrett who recommended 20000 to 30000 for most of their blades but this was for cutting metals on big industrial saws.

The meters measure the amount of blade stretch which translates directly to PSI, regardless of the blade width or thickness based on Young's Modulus. From John TenEyck: Stress = Young's Modulus x Strain = 30 X 10^6 x deflection/gage length

This might be a useful article: https://woodgears.ca/bandsaw/tension.html

And some stuff from John TenEyck:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?250388-Bandsaw-blade-tension&p=2640804#post2640804
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?250388-Bandsaw-blade-tension&p=2640833#post2640833


The gauge I have is a Starrett, fairly expensive, around $300. Iturra design sells one much cheaper. He told me the redesigned gauge they sell now is still about 1/2 the price of the Starrett. His contact info if anyone wants it (I don't think he as a web site):

Louis Iturra
KALLL@comcast.net
904-642-2802 • Work
4636 Fulton Road, Jacksonville, Fl 32225-1332

JKJ

[Bernie Kopfer]

Another vote for the 10" Rikon. Once I got it working properly it t makes it so nice to be able to walk over and turn the tension knob 2 full turns and start cutting. Detension and done. Larger saw for straight cuts and resawing. I hate changing blades!

[Edwin Santos]

I'll put in a vote for a 14" class machine. Whether you go vintage or new, Delta, Jet, Grizzly or another is up to you. Smaller than 14" narrows the world of accessories and parts and there are some that believe the smaller the wheels, the more prone the blades will be to breakage, something to do with the smaller diameter of a wheel placing creating more fatigue in the blade. Either way, I think the 14" class of machine is very versatile for either straight cutting, contour cutting, fine joinery work.

Just another note - I see you've received some emphatic advice about tension and tension gauges. High tension is indeed a school of thought in bandsaws and the owners that believe in it seem to be very happy with their results. In my experience however, high tension can sometimes be a form of band aid for misalignment, guide setting, and tuning issues with the saw. In other words, the saw is not wanting to cut true naturally so high tension is used to force it to behave. If the saw is properly tuned, it will cut true naturally and the need for high tension diminishes. Before you invest money in expensive tension gauge devices and springs, try some of the advice you can find online about tuning your saw and see if you can get good results on your own. I will bet that if you follow some basic tuning procedures, you can make the saw sing like a well tuned instrument.

You may end up in the high tension camp in the end, but just don't start there, see if you can get good results without forcing stress on whatever saw you choose.

[John K Jordan]

... High tension is indeed a school of thought in bandsaws and the owners that believe in it seem to be very happy with their results. ...

I'm curious how you define "high tension". Do you have tension numbers?

To me it's kind of a Goldilocks thing - there is tension too low, tension too high, and tension that is just right. I don't think any can fix a saw that is not aligned and tracking properly, and the guides set correctly. I've personally never heard someone recommend using high tension to fix problems.

[Allan Speers]

I see you've received some emphatic advice about tension and tension gauges. High tension is indeed a school of thought in bandsaws and the owners that believe in it seem to be very happy with their results. In my experience however, high tension can sometimes be a form of band aid for misalignment, guide setting, and tuning issues with the saw. In other words, the saw is not wanting to cut true naturally so high tension is used to force it to behave. If the saw is properly tuned, it will cut true naturally and the need for high tension diminishes.....

From my limited experience, I agree. I like to tension until the flutter just goes away. That worked great on both saws I've owned, both carefully set up.

Having said that, I AM a little apprehensive about small wheels breaking blades. (The same holds for the 3-wheeled Inca 710, I guess.) But folks seems awfully happy with their 10" Rikons, so I guess there's no problem, if using the right blades.

I'm still tempted by that Inca, even though I guess I really don't need the extra throat. - but it sure would be nice to be able to have a little saw (like the Rikon) that can be moved around, and the 710 is definitely NOT that.

[Bradley Gray]

I'm not sure why you are dismissing the 12" Craftsman. I have an old one that I use with an 1/8" blade. I have cool block graphite guides on it. I have a 32" Crescent for bigger work but I've run the craftsman for 40 years and it was old when I got it.

[John K Jordan]

I'm not sure why you are dismissing the 12" Craftsman. I have an old one that I use with an 1/8" blade. I have cool block graphite guides on it. I have a 32" Crescent for bigger work but I've run the craftsman for 40 years and it was old when I got it.

I understood the problem was fatigue from bending larger and thicker blades around tighter radii. I've read about problems with small 3-wheel bandsaws. But from a mechanical viewpoint, it seems to me that scaling the blade down with the wheel radius would be fine.

[Allan Speers]

I'm not sure why you are dismissing the 12" Craftsman. I have an old one that I use with an 1/8" blade. I have cool block graphite guides on it. I have a 32" Crescent for bigger work but I've run the craftsman for 40 years and it was old when I got it.

Two big problems:

1: There are no modern guides for those old "round post" models, and my top guide is broken right off.

2: The upper wheel hanger is known to break very easily. I thought maybe I'd reinforce it with something like metal screening & JB Weld, but who knows if that will work? I'd probably end up sinking $250- $350 into it, just to make it do what I need, so I dunno... It's cool little machine, though.

## How exactly did you add those cool blocks?

[Chapel Eastland]

I agree that setting up a bandsaw involves many things that must be in place to achieve the best results.

It is not "setting" high tension. It is setting the correct tension. And unless you have magic fingers or years of experience, for the majority of people that requires a tension guage. It will save you time, flustration, and money. Setting the "correct tension" is as indispensable as having the table square to the blade.

Since you've had good luck with your Grizzly, why not get another in 14"?

[John K Jordan]

I agree that setting up a bandsaw involves many things that must be in place to achieve the best results.

It is not "setting" high tension. It is setting the correct tension. And unless you have magic fingers or years of experience, for the majority of people that requires a tension guage. It will save you time, flustration, and money. Setting the "correct tension" is as indispensable as having the table square to the blade.

I think Lonnie Bird says it well when talking about the value of using a tension gauge: "Other tensioning methods will work, but they’re a lot like gauging air pressure in a bicycle tire simply by squeezing it."

And what about using the high end of the recommended tension range? He makes a good point: "But I should make it clear that I recommend using maximum blade tension only for occasional, brief periods of resawing. Otherwise, I keep the tension low for everyday sawing."

When I got my first bandsaw I read everything I could find. I learned a lot from Bird's book as well as Duginske's (and even those two don't agree on everything!)

JKJ

[Bradley Gray]

The cool blocks are round and replace the originals with no mod.

is your upper wheel hanger broken? You really don't need much tension on a small blade.

[John K Jordan]

Two big problems:

1: There are no modern guides for those old "round post" models, and my top guide is broken right off.

2: The upper wheel hanger is known to break very easily. I thought maybe I'd reinforce it with something like metal screening & JB Weld, but who knows if that will work?

With a small welding, metal lathe, and mill in my shop its hard for me to imagine a mechanical something broken or weak that can't be fixed or reinforced, although I'm not familiar with that saw. I've milled replacement parts of various metals, plastics, and wood (lignum vitae is great) and welded, brazed, soldered, glueed, bolted or sewed things back together as needed. Can't run a farm without fixin' what breaks!

Since you live in a secret, non-disclosed location (witness protection program?) I probably can't help but perhaps you know someone near you who has some metal-working abilities and is not afraid to use them.

JKJ

[Tom M King]

JBWeld is good stuff. I fixed a 20 year old Stihl FS85 string trimmer crankcase with it a couple of weeks ago. Two out of three tabs on the crankcase broke off where the clutch housing bolts to the crankcase. A new crankcase half from Stihl was a substantial part of the cost of a new machine. I found a used one on ebay for 8 bucks, and ordered it, but decided to try JBweld in the meantime.

I used the "marine" JBWeld for aluminum. Long story shortened, it's been running troublefree for two weeks now. I have one man that runs a string trimmer full time. The used crankcase half came, and looks like it should work, but no need to put the time in swapping it for as long as the JBWeld holds.

[John K Jordan]

JBWeld is good stuff. ...

I agree, I have lots of things "welded" with it around the farm. I buy it in the jumbo size.

One thing I discovered: I wanted to mount a magnet near the end of my fence staple holder to better keep the staple in place for the first hammer smack. I drilled a hole for a strong magnet, flush with the inside of the socket and sticking up a bit on the outside (so I could use it to pull a staple out of the bucket.) I gobbed JB weld in the hole and around the magnet to make a strong fillet.

While I watched, the wet JB creeped up the sides of the magnet and mounded over the top! I pushed the epoxy down and it moved right back up. To make it work I had to keep pushing the goop down until it started setting up. (The holder has worked perfectly for 10 years now - I highly recommend the mod but it might be easier to simply drill the hole for a press fit.)

At least some of the filler in JB Weld is apparently very fine iron or steel dust. I'm saving talcum-powder fines caught by magnets below my CBN grinding wheels - I want to try adding those to standard epoxy and compare the strength and chemical resistance to JB. (Carbon nanotubes and fibers might be interesting to add. I think I'll as my nanotube expert friend if he has tried that)

JKJ

[Mike Kees]

Well....I see that this thread has' morped' all the way from small bandsaws to JB weld. Anyone want to talk about Duct tape ?:D

[Allan Speers]

Oh man, now you guys have me thinking about refurbing that Craftsman again...
Ugh, I need my life back !!! :)

Well, I can buy "carter" style upper roller guides on Ebay for about $70, so maybe I'll just do that, get the tires, and maybe a swap-in a cast iron pulley. That would make it functional. I'd rather have standard bearings with cool blocks, but parts don't come up that often.

The bearings feel great, the ancient 1 HP motor works well, & the original fence works, so not too much $$$.

(but you know that I REALLY wanted an excuse to buy that Inca! :p )

[Allan Speers]

Re JB Weld:

One thing folks should realize is that, while it has "pretty good" tensile strength, in my experience is has lousy shear strength. Significantly worse than most epoxies I've tested. I suspect that's because of the steel filler particles. It's great for filling holes (exactly what it was made for) and certain mechanical repairs, but it's a very bad choice where 2 parts will have heavy "sideways" pressure applied. (Unless there's a LOT of mating surface area)

That's my experience, anyway.

I think that for reinforcing with screen, or fiberglass, or whatever, it wold be an excellent choice, & I probably WILL do that on my saw, since there appears to be lots of room around that part.
------------

The "Marine" JB Weld is intriguing, I never saw that before. However, I suspect that it's just "regular" JB Weld in a different packaging, to go after the System 3 market. ($$$$) It is the same color, and has exactly the same cure time & tensile strength.
- Like "Plumbers" "Household" and "Automotive" Goop. That's all exactly the same stuff.

But who knows?

[Tom M King]

Inside that crankcase half, there wasn't much contact area where the breaks were, but there was a lot of room around where the clutch goes. I used a Dremel with wire brush, cleaned the metal, and put in pretty large fillets, so was able to get a lot of surface area like that.

I would have used regular, but the NAPA that is close was out of it, but had a large selection of all the others, so I just grabbed the Marine one.

So far, that trimmer probably has 50 hours on it, and is still working fine. At 20 years old, 400 bucks for a new one is only 20 dollars a year for the machine, but might as well keep it going as long as it will.

I was just thinking, since you mentioned a possible JBWeld repair on your bandsaw, that it might be worth a try.

[Allan Speers]

I was just thinking, since you mentioned a possible JBWeld repair on your bandsaw, that it might be worth a try.

Absolutely.
Like that crankcase, I think tensile strength is what matters there, plus being able to solidly fill in tiny gaps, which regular epoxy is not so good at.

-And luckily I don't have to repair the hanger, just reinforce it to lessen the chance of it breaking in the future.

[Pete Staehling]

I understood the problem was fatigue from bending larger and thicker blades around tighter radii. I've read about problems with small 3-wheel bandsaws. But from a mechanical viewpoint, it seems to me that scaling the blade down with the wheel radius would be fine.
I agree. I'd use one with blades specifically intended for it or ones that just happen to fit that criteria. That means narrow and thin blades (especially the thinness). There are blades specifically labeled as three wheeler blades. Supercut three wheeler is one brand (harbor freight is one source). You can also get Starret blades in 0.014" thickness (woodworker.com sells them).

BTW, it probably isn't a bad idea to run them on any of the small 2 wheeled saws. I definitely use them on my 8" delta and usually on my 9" ryobi. Yes I have two tiny bench top saws, one has a rip fence on it most of the time and the other a crosscut sled. I typically am cutting tiny parts often and they are handy to have set up that way.