Shooting Planes - Are they worth it?

[JohnM Martin]

I know this is a highly subjective topic (and there are probably many different opinions on it), but I thought I would ask to see what people think to see if there is some sort of a consensus. The question is regarding shooting planes. Specifically, are they worth the (relatively) high cost to have a dedicated plane for shooting. I'm relatively inexperienced when it comes to hand tool woodworking and have been using my #62 LN for shooting. It has worked ok for me so far, but since I also use this plane for general use (flattening, jointing shorter boards, etc), I always have to resharpen and fiddle with it to get it setup for shooting. Because of this, I sometimes "cheat" and rely on my miter saw for squaring up end grain. I know this is not optimal and want to do it the right way. I'm pretty certain I want a dedicated shooting plane, but the question I have at this point is whether or not the so called "shooting" planes perform substantially better than say a #5 1/2 or #6 that are dedicated to shooting. If I were to purchase a proper shooting plane, I would be looking at LV and LN, probably leaning towards the LV just because of the price difference. Thoughts?

[Tom M King]

check the recent thread still on the first page in this forum

[Mark Rainey]

John, I started out with an old Stanley jack plane & it still is my most used plane, BUT it is sure is convenient to grab another plane set up with a finely honed blade to shoot end grain. I have my low angle jack set up for shooting but still do not have a LV or LN “shooter”. Seems like a nice luxury.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

A lot depends on you. What kind of budget do you have for woodworking? A bargain to one guy may be more than another will spend in a year.

Sort of the best way I can see a semi-universal value is the “what should I get next” question. If I need a dead square cut, I use a miter box, and if I did not have one would probably buy that before I bought a shooting plane. I use my No. 7 to shoot and it works well.

[Jim Koepke]

I know this is a highly subjective topic (and there are probably many different opinions on it), but I thought I would ask to see what people think to see if there is some sort of a consensus. The question is regarding shooting planes. Specifically, are they worth the (relatively) high cost to have a dedicated plane for shooting. I'm relatively inexperienced when it comes to hand tool woodworking and have been using my #62 LN for shooting. It has worked ok for me so far, but since I also use this plane for general use (flattening, jointing shorter boards, etc), I always have to resharpen and fiddle with it to get it setup for shooting. Because of this, I sometimes "cheat" and rely on my miter saw for squaring up end grain. I know this is not optimal and want to do it the right way. I'm pretty certain I want a dedicated shooting plane, but the question I have at this point is whether or not the so called "shooting" planes perform substantially better than say a #5 1/2 or #6 that are dedicated to shooting. If I were to purchase a proper shooting plane, I would be looking at LV and LN, probably leaning towards the LV just because of the price difference. Thoughts?

John,

My LN #62 was purchased mainly for shooting before the other shooting planes were released to market. A recent visit to an LN Tool Event has left me coveting a bona fide shooting plane. My choice would be the LV because of the lower angle, along with the lower cost.

The low angle leaves a nicer surface on the end grain than any Bailey style plane could.

My first shooing of end grain used a #6. My right shoulder suffers from an old injury. That got me to go with the #62. This helped a lot on the shooting board. Since then my shoulder still bothers me at times so the hot dog on my #62 was switched to the other side, my shooting board was reconfigured and now my shooting is done left handed. If my funding is good around my birthday or Christmas a left hand shooting plane may find its way into my stocking.

Some of my shooting is also done with a low angle block plane, #65.

Maybe the inexpensive way out for you would be to purchase an old Stanley/Bailey #5 to use for the non-shooting work and dedicate the #62 to end grain.

jtk

[Phil Mueller]

I use a shooting board/plane on virtually every project. Even after sawing with a miter box, I use it for a final finish. Given the frequent use, I purchased the LV shooting plane. For me, worth every penny.

[Andrew Hughes]

I have a dedicated Plane for shooting it’s the #9 that Lie Neilson used to sell. The shape makes it goofy for anything else so it stays sharp and ready.
So I say yes it’s worth having a dedicated shooter.

[Derek Cohen]

John, as you say, it is a subjective topic.

I have used every variety of shooting board and shooting plane, and have written extensively on them. A shooting board is important for me to finesse a fitting, especially drawers. A dedicated shooting plane is a bonus - I do not believe that one is essential, but it is a boon if you can afford it. There are other planes I place ahead of one, for sure. It comes down to personal priorities.

I have demonstrated (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ShootingPlanesCompared.html) that the LV LA Jack can be a nicer and better experience than a dedicated shooting plane, such as the (no-longer-made) LN mitre plane #9. It depends on technique. And then, a shooting plane, such as the LN #51, is a real step up from both these, especially when in a dedicated shooting board (rather than one which is also used for other purposes). This is because the #51-varieties have a difference balance point, and require a side rail to track straight. I am fortunate to own both the LN #51 and the Veritas Shooting Plane, and can use either on a Stanley #52 shooting board. I think that the LN is a stunningly beautiful plane. However the Veritas lives on my shooting board as it is a better user. Review here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Larry Frank]

I use a LN 4-1/2 as a shooting plane and works for me.

[Rob Luter]

I use a LV Low Angle Jack with a 25* iron for a shooting plane. It works well, although the A2 iron is subject to micro chipping when I shoot White Oak. Perhaps a new PM-V11 iron next time LV has free shipping :rolleyes:

Like Jim, I was really taken by the dedicated shooting planes. The combination of the Low Angle and Skewed Iron really makes short work on end grain. I can't rationalize the cost currently, but if I start making things with length critical parts like drawers I might consider one

[glenn bradley]

I ran a LV LAJ for some time.

410235

I had the dedicated plane on my wish list for some time and Santa Clause brought it one year.

410237

I also have a little bevel shooter for small boxes.

410236

The value will be directly proportional to what you do with it. If you haven't 'needed' one yet, I'd say you are doing fine without it.

[JohnM Martin]

John, as you say, it is a subjective topic.

I have used every variety of shooting board and shooting plane, and have written extensively on them. A shooting board is important for me to finesse a fitting, especially drawers. A dedicated shooting plane is a bonus - I do not believe that one is essential, but it is a boon if you can afford it. There are other planes I place ahead of one, for sure. It comes down to personal priorities.

I have demonstrated (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ShootingPlanesCompared.html) that the LV LA Jack can be a nicer and better experience than a dedicated shooting plane, such as the (no-longer-made) LN mitre plane #9. It depends on technique. And then, a shooting plane, such as the LN #51, is a real step up from both these, especially when in a dedicated shooting board (rather than one which is also used for other purposes). This is because the #51-varieties have a difference balance point, and require a side rail to track straight. I am fortunate to own both the LN #51 and the Veritas Shooting Plane, and can use either on a Stanley #52 shooting board. I think that the LN is a stunningly beautiful plane. However the Veritas lives on my shooting board as it is a better user. Review here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Wow, Derek, what a great write up. Thanks for passing it along. Based on your findings, it seems my intuition is headed in the right direction. Now, just time to save the pennies.

[Warren Mickley]

I think you want to buy a double iron plane rather than a shooting board plane. In fact here are probably lots of other planes that would better increase your capabilities.

I recommend shooting end grain in a vise. Knife the board all the way around, bevel the far end, and plane to the knife line. With this traditional method, you can control the amount of skew you want. This will help develop your skill and eventually be the most efficient way.

I have been to eight Lie Nielsen events, but I have never seen surfaces that strike me as high quality. I don't know whether it is the sharpening or steel or what.

[Charles Guest]

Knifing deeply against an accurate square and shooting upright in a vice will produce the square end you need. Generally end grain shouldn't show in any great quantity so there's no need to aim for a pristine, show surface in most cases, not that planing upright can't produce one when necessary.

If you can square a line around a workpiece with a knife, there is no confusion what or where square is. Those who assert that you should knife a line and use a shooting board are missing the point of the board in the first place.

Summary: you can do without a shooting board quite easily.

[Derek Cohen]

Summary: you can do without a shooting board quite easily.

There are many ways to skin a cat.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Seems a lot of cash to spend, on a one trick pony of a plane.

[Jim Koepke]

Seems a lot of cash to spend, on a one trick pony of a plane.

When one trick has so many angles it becomes a pretty valuable trick.

As Derek said, "Thera are many ways to skin a cat."

jtk

[Charles Guest]

When one trick has so many angles it becomes a pretty valuable trick.

As Derek said, "Thera are many ways to skin a cat."

jtk

If you can strike a line you can plane to it or so I was told within the first month or so of my apprenticeship, and to an unlimited number of angles, all you need is a combination square, a bevel square, a vice, and the plane of your choice, all of which every woodworker already has. A shooting board and a special plane to go with it just become shiny trinkets.

Using one effectively is no argument for it. I'm quite sure I could use an expensive European combination machine that costs $30K+ quite effectively but that by no means is a per se argument for owning one given the alternatives.

Keep your kit simple.

But if you find yourself in a production hand tool shop (say hello to Mr. Chippendale for me) by all means set up a board or even several boards and have at it.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Perhaps a new PM-V11 iron next time LV has free shipping :rolleyes:

You're in luck: that day's today (http://www.leevalley.com/us/home/page.aspx?p=60912). Here comes my new combination plane and blades :)

[Rob Luter]

https://akshatrathidotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/homer-simpson-computer.png?w=465

[Neil Gaskin]

Worth it I’d hard to answer. It’s definitely not a “money maker” in the shop but sometimes it’s just the perfect tool for the job. I was lucky and came across a LN bronze 9 for a fair price. Frankly I use my miter trimmer more often.

[Charles Guest]

Worth it I’d hard to answer. It’s definitely not a “money maker” in the shop but sometimes it’s just the perfect tool for the job. I was lucky and came across a LN bronze 9 for a fair price. Frankly I use my miter trimmer more often.

A miter trimmer is a better investment.

[Derek Cohen]

A miter trimmer is a better investment.

... but not nearly as much fun. One must not discount the very great pleasure in using a shooting plane. It is a dual-tasker ... pleasure and precision. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Mueller]

Derek, I agree the shooting plane is a pleasure to use. But I may have to disagree with the “more fun” than a miter trimmer. That amazing smooth and perfect slice sound is also a joy. For me, it’s “as fun” :)

[Tom M King]

I sold my Miter Trimmer, that I had used for 35 or 40 years, soon after I bought the Shooting Plane.

[James Pallas]

I use a LAJ for shooting. I keep a straight blade to use for the task. I admit that I don't constantly use a shooting board. I use a board when I feel it necessary for the work. If I felt that everything I cut with a saw needed correction or if I was making the same item a lot and it helped with the work I would buy a trimmer or a dedicated shooting plane. To me it's like buying a rabbet plane to make 2 rabbets a year. If you don't have your shooting board set up permanently you probably don't need it.
Jim

[John Gornall]

Tool setup is based on the work you do. I cut a lot of miters in small pieces about 1/4" x 3/16" and have a tiny shooting board on which I use a LV medium shoulder plane which only moves about 1/2". Perfect miters

[Mike King]

Worth is in the eye of the beholder. Only you can decide if it is worth it to you. Are there other ways to accomplish the same task? Sure. Might you use other planes or tools? Sure. Will those tools do as good a job as a purpose designed shooting plane? Maybe. Will those other tools give the same sense of satisfaction of owning a shooting plane? Only you can answer.

Mike

[Tony Leonard]

For reference, I am not a dedicated hand tool user. I use hand tools where appropriate and to clean up, fit, etc. Anyway, Santa brought me a LV shooter a while back. I made a shooting board and started fiddling with it. I have found that I really like it. It is great to remove a whisper and also to straighten up a cut, etc. A little shimming here and there when trying to fit things can help too. Plus, I just enjoy using it. I later bought their track and is works pretty well too. As with most of this stuff, there is a bit of a learning curve and using one requires a bit of "English." Is it worth the money? I dunno. Mine was a Santa thing, so that makes it a little different! Ha! I don't think you will be disappointed if you buy one.

Another aspect of this for me was that it made me start looking at my joinery closer. I found that there was room for improvement! Now, I'm more picky that I used to be. Almost nothing off of the table saw is acceptable to me anymore. My gaps are much smaller than they used to be! I'm using much higher magnifying glasses to look too!

Tony

[Charles Guest]

For reference, I am not a dedicated hand tool user. I use hand tools where appropriate and to clean up, fit, etc. Anyway, Santa brought me a LV shooter a while back. I made a shooting board and started fiddling with it. I have found that I really like it. It is great to remove a whisper and also to straighten up a cut, etc. A little shimming here and there when trying to fit things can help too. Plus, I just enjoy using it. I later bought their track and is works pretty well too. As with most of this stuff, there is a bit of a learning curve and using one requires a bit of "English." Is it worth the money? I dunno. Mine was a Santa thing, so that makes it a little different! Ha! I don't think you will be disappointed if you buy one.

Another aspect of this for me was that it made me start looking at my joinery closer. I found that there was room for improvement! Now, I'm more picky that I used to be. Almost nothing off of the table saw is acceptable to me anymore. My gaps are much smaller than they used to be! I'm using much higher magnifying glasses to look too!

Tony

It's much easier to work to the accuracy of one's squares and other gauges than to the accuracy of the tools themselves. The saying "the tail wagging the dog" describes the latter alternative perfectly. Tools don't need to be perfect, the gauges just need to reflect the level of accuracy within which you'd like to work. This is a hard concept to get one's head around if you started out in the craft using mostly machinery and didn't have a baptism in hand tool work early on. In this scenario the machinery has to be accurate or you're left standing there with your manhood in your hand wondering what to do next when it isn't. You'll continue to chase your tail until you get this important concept.

If you can work to the accuracy of a crisp and not too deeply scribed knife line, that's almost always all that's needed. Removing the wood up to such lines doesn't require particularly accurate tools or expensive saws, planes, chisels, or jigs and fixtures that go out of truth when weather moves through. What's left behind is the mark you made with square or gauge and knife. There will be no evidence that a $40 plane, or an $800 plane, $400 saw, or $150 chisel, removed the waste material.

If you aren't working to lines you've become totally dependent on the accuracy that HAS to be inherent in tools, jigs and fixtures. You're back to square one as a machine tool woodworker at this point, without the labor-saving benefit, but you haven't realized it yet.

[Jim Koepke]

Removing the wood up to such lines doesn't require particularly accurate tools or expensive saws, planes, chisels, or jigs and fixtures that go out of truth when weather moves through.

Part of being successful at making things out of wood is how to work with the changes caused by occurrences of weather changes.

We have squares and gauges not only to guide our work but to also check and verify our work.

If a person likes the coarseness of sawn wood, then so be it. If one wants a plane smoothed surface on their end grain, then let them do it with the convenience of a shooting board or with a plane on a piece mounted in a vise.

Heck, some of my saw cut ends have been squared with a chisel just for the experience.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

It's much easier to work to the accuracy of one's squares and other gauges than to the accuracy of the tools themselves. The saying "the tail wagging the dog" describes the latter alternative perfectly. Tools don't need to be perfect, the gauges just need to reflect the level of accuracy within which you'd like to work. This is a hard concept to get one's head around if you started out in the craft using mostly machinery and didn't have a baptism in hand tool work early on. In this scenario the machinery has to be accurate or you're left standing there with your manhood in your hand wondering what to do next when it isn't. You'll continue to chase your tail until you get this important concept.

If you can work to the accuracy of a crisp and not too deeply scribed knife line, that's almost always all that's needed. Removing the wood up to such lines doesn't require particularly accurate tools or expensive saws, planes, chisels, or jigs and fixtures that go out of truth when weather moves through. What's left behind is the mark you made with square or gauge and knife. There will be no evidence that a $40 plane, or an $800 plane, $400 saw, or $150 chisel, removed the waste material.

If you aren't working to lines you've become totally dependent on the accuracy that HAS to be inherent in tools, jigs and fixtures. You're back to square one as a machine tool woodworker at this point, without the labor-saving benefit, but you haven't realized it yet.

I like and regularly use my LV Shooter. No apologies. I absolutely agree that "you dont have to have it". I too can plane to a line as suggested. But I am merely a hobbyist. In addition to building things, part of my interest in the hobby include trying new tools. It "floats my boat". I agree it's a different story for craftsmen making their living at it.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Being a tool junkie, and also having a wife that regularly looks at what I have and don't have, then using that as a basis for presents, I have many tools. I like my miter trimmer, having used it as recently as last evening. But I also like my shooting board! For General work, I use whatever plane is handy, then test for square, both ways. For close work, I use my LN #9 shooting plane. BUT, the sweetest shooting plane is what LV refers to as their "Veritas Miter Plane". For me, the fit to my hand is perfect and cut is predictable.

Regardless of method, testing is needed: either plane to lightly scribed line, or if using a shooting board, test for square both ways. If using a miter trimmer, watch your fingers?

[Chris Fournier]

My LN #9 bought pre-production has paid for itself many times over. It has been a workhorse in my shop and on site during trim projects. No regrets.

[Jason Kamery]

One day I would like to get a shooting plane, just don't have the money for it right now. So I currently use a Millers Falls No14 and carefully plane to the scribe line. Takes forever but, you gotta do what you gotta do...

[steven c newman]

Yep...
410636
Stanley No. 3c, type 11/12....with a SW iron...White Oak. Bandsaw had left a very rough cut..
410638
Was quick enough to just clamp it into the end vise. Then plane the rough stuff away.

[Charles Guest]

Part of being successful at making things out of wood is how to work with the changes caused by occurrences of weather changes.

We have squares and gauges not only to guide our work but to also check and verify our work.

If a person likes the coarseness of sawn wood, then so be it. If one wants a plane smoothed surface on their end grain, then let them do it with the convenience of a shooting board or with a plane on a piece mounted in a vise.

Heck, some of my saw cut ends have been squared with a chisel just for the experience.

jtk

I just want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that end grain be left rough, certainly not when it's exposed. But you don't have to have a shooting board to smooth it, nor do you need one to square an end. If you have a board/plane combination that stay dead square that's great -- you can forgo knifing at least the first end, square it up with the board without marking/knifing, though presumably one has to mark the other end to length, saw it, and then perhaps smooth it depending on what kind of joinery is to be cut on the board ends. As an example, I don't personally mind if the ends of a through dovetail on the back of a drawer show a few saw marks, but these are usually rectified in the clean up and polishing after the drawer is glued up -- no need to shoot the ends beforehand, as the entire drawer will be shot to fit into its opening.

[Jim Koepke]

One day I would like to get a shooting plane, just don't have the money for it right now. So I currently use a Millers Falls No14 and carefully plane to the scribe line. Takes forever but, you gotta do what you gotta do...

In my experience, shooting goes rather quickly. How much material are you removing?

Technique may also play a role in your shooting work.

First is getting the blade set up for shaving end grain. It needs to be very sharp. In my experience setting the blade to take as thin of shaving as possible on edge grain will get you close. In my experience, the blade will then need to be set a hair deeper to make a shaving on end grain. It should make a shaving and not dust. The piece being worked is held with one hand and the plane with the other. Hold the work against the fence and move the plane so the toe is touching the work while the plane is against the side of the bed. (the bed is what the work is on) Then push the plane forward to take the first shaving. Withdraw the plane only to the toe then with the hand holding the work move the piece as needed to register against the plane's toe while holding the plane against the bed and make another shaving, repeat.

With a little practice this will go rather fast.

Here is something that made shooting a bit more comfortable with a bench plane:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?130114

Derek Cohen has two much more elegant 'hot dogs' on his web site:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/A%20Hotdog%20for%20the%20LV%20LAJ1.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Building%20the%20Hotdog%20Mk%20II%20for%20the%20LV %20LA%20Jack%20pics.html


I just want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that end grain be left rough, certainly not when it's exposed. But you don't have to have a shooting board to smooth it, nor do you need one to square an end. If you have a board/plane combination that stay dead square that's great -- you can forgo knifing at least the first end, square it up with the board without marking/knifing, though presumably one has to mark the other end to length, saw it, and then perhaps smooth it depending on what kind of joinery is to be cut on the board ends. As an example, I don't personally mind if the ends of a through dovetail on the back of a drawer show a few saw marks, but these are usually rectified in the clean up and polishing after the drawer is glued up -- no need to shoot the ends beforehand, as the entire drawer will be shot to fit into its opening.

It is only different ways different folks do similar tasks. In your example of a drawer, all my components usually have the ends smoothed and squared on a shooting board. This makes for easier, smoother marking with a wheel or pin gauge. Trimming for final fit of a drawer for me isn't done on a shooting board.

Different strokes for different folks.

My current shooting board can be used from either side:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?244777

jtk

[Jason Kamery]

In my experience, shooting goes rather quickly. How much material are you removing?

Technique may also play a role in your shooting work.

First is getting the blade set up for shaving end grain. It needs to be very sharp. In my experience setting the blade to take as thin of shaving as possible on edge grain will get you close. In my experience, the blade will then need to be set a hair deeper to make a shaving on end grain. It should make a shaving and not dust. The piece being worked is held with one hand and the plane with the other. Hold the work against the fence and move the plane so the toe is touching the work while the plane is against the side of the bed. (the bed is what the work is on) Then push the plane forward to take the first shaving. Withdraw the plane only to the toe then with the hand holding the work move the piece as needed to register against the plane's toe while holding the plane against the bed and make another shaving, repeat.

With a little practice this will go rather fast.

Here is something that made shooting a bit more comfortable with a bench plane:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?130114

Derek Cohen has two much more elegant 'hot dogs' on his web site:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/A%20Hotdog%20for%20the%20LV%20LAJ1.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Building%20the%20Hotdog%20Mk%20II%20for%20the%20LV %20LA%20Jack%20pics.html



It is only different ways different folks do similar tasks. In your example of a drawer, all my components usually have the ends smoothed and squared on a shooting board. This makes for easier, smoother marking with a wheel or pin gauge. Trimming for final fit of a drawer for me isn't done on a shooting board.

Different strokes for different folks.

My current shooting board can be used from either side:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?244777

jtk

Jim, really appreciate the response, thank you. I should have clarified. I don't even shoot with that plane. I literally just plane the end grain to the scribe line (chamfering the end so I don't blow it out). I made a shooting board a while back and I honestly just need to take the time to make a better one. My board is awful. Your and Derek's post about adding a handle or hot dog is definitely something I gotta look at doing.

On a somewhat related note, do you chamfer the back side of your piece when shooting? Or is the the fence holding it so it doesn't split the wood?

[Charles Guest]

In my experience, shooting goes rather quickly. How much material are you removing?

Technique may also play a role in your shooting work.

First is getting the blade set up for shaving end grain. It needs to be very sharp. In my experience setting the blade to take as thin of shaving as possible on edge grain will get you close. In my experience, the blade will then need to be set a hair deeper to make a shaving on end grain. It should make a shaving and not dust. The piece being worked is held with one hand and the plane with the other. Hold the work against the fence and move the plane so the toe is touching the work while the plane is against the side of the bed. (the bed is what the work is on) Then push the plane forward to take the first shaving. Withdraw the plane only to the toe then with the hand holding the work move the piece as needed to register against the plane's toe while holding the plane against the bed and make another shaving, repeat.

With a little practice this will go rather fast.

Here is something that made shooting a bit more comfortable with a bench plane:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?130114

Derek Cohen has two much more elegant 'hot dogs' on his web site:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/A%20Hotdog%20for%20the%20LV%20LAJ1.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Building%20the%20Hotdog%20Mk%20II%20for%20the%20LV %20LA%20Jack%20pics.html



It is only different ways different folks do similar tasks. In your example of a drawer, all my components usually have the ends smoothed and squared on a shooting board. This makes for easier, smoother marking with a wheel or pin gauge. Trimming for final fit of a drawer for me isn't done on a shooting board.

Different strokes for different folks.

My current shooting board can be used from either side:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?244777

jtk

Without addressing each point specifically -- way too slow. You don't need to mark the end grain for the tails. You just saw them out. A pin board straight off a back(ed) saw is generally smooth enough for marking from the tails, but a few strokes with a plane is fine if you just have to, that can be done upright in a vise in a few seconds. Cosmetic clean up at the joints themselves happens after glue up when it all is put to truth for size, glue drips, saw marks, fingerprints, bench dings, general grunge, etc. The whole schmear in one.

Again, what you are proposing is more or less machine-tool oriented approach when all the individual workpieces pieces are very clean coming straight off the chop saw or tablesaw. This is not how hand tool woodworking is done, at least not done at some speed. If you feel that you need perfectly cosmetically clean ends to do dovetailing you're missing the point, and might as well use a tablesaw or power miter saw to square up and then cut your pieces to length. Even decorative, exposed dovetails usually don't need the frou-frou treatment before they're glued up. In fact if you do so you may be missing an opportunity to fix a few minor boo-boos that you could have fixed if you'd just waited.

I need to subscribe to view photos. I'll do that soon.

[Derek Cohen]

You don't need to mark the end grain for the tails.

Charles, are you suggesting that marking tails before sawing is a machine-tool orientated procedure?


Cosmetic clean up at the joints themselves happens after glue up when it all is put to truth for size, glue drips, saw marks, fingerprints, bench dings, general grunge, etc. The whole schmear in one

In my case, I do not shoot ends for cosmetic purposes. I shoot to size a board. Squaring at the same time. The whole schmear in one.


If you feel that you need perfectly cosmetically clean ends to do dovetailing you're missing the point, and might as well use a tablesaw or power miter saw to square up and then cut your pieces to length.

It is not important to be cosmetically clean. It is important to be square. However one chooses to do this is just another method. Even if one uses a machine to trim to size, it may still be necessary to fine tune to fit a drawer front. Shooting works. The vise works. Choices.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Guest]

You don't need to mark tails. Space them by eye and saw them out. If the angles aren't perfectly consisten it doesn't matter, the pin board will be marked and sawn to the state of the tail board. A few degrees difference will never be noticed and the fit perfect as long as the pin board is sawn out well.

How much time do you suppose you've spent making, and keeping true, the various shooting boards I assume you must have?

[Mark Rainey]

You don't need to mark tails. Space them by eye and saw them out.
Frank Klausz does not mark either. I think hand tool professionals work very efficiently.

[Jim Koepke]

On a somewhat related note, do you chamfer the back side of your piece when shooting? Or is the the fence holding it so it doesn't split the wood?

Yes, often this is done by holding the piece at an angel on the shooting board and running the plane over the corner.


You don't need to mark the end grain for the tails.

Of course, many cut tails or pins by eye. Though marking a base line is usually handy. This again is a matter of "different stokes for different folks."


a few strokes with a plane is fine if you just have to, that can be done upright in a vise in a few seconds.

With a shooting board, one doesn't even have to take the time to crank a vise handle to close and open the vise.


If you feel that you need perfectly cosmetically clean ends to do dovetailing you're missing the point

Actually my reason for using the shooting board on dovetailed constructions is to ensure each piece exactly matches its opposite component in length. It is easier to make things square when the work is milled to be square.

BTW, there is no chop saw or table saw in my shop. My sawing is done with hand saws or on rare occasions a bandsaw.


Cosmetic clean up at the joints themselves happens after glue up when it all is put to truth for size, glue drips, saw marks, fingerprints, bench dings, general grunge, etc. The whole schmear in one.

Another difference in our work methods. For me it is less work to keep the work neat from the start instead of trying to clean it up at the end.

Unless there are super critical dimensions involved, my pieces are seldom scribed before shooting. The work piece is usually set at an angle against the fence. A few passes are made to chamfer the corner. The piece is then flipped so the side with the chamfered corner is against the fence and a few passes are taken. This is very quick and easy.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Just for the fun of it a video was made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M07-HOLArhk

The piece of scrap used for this demonstration is ash.

It took more time to get this posted on Youtube than it took to take the camera out to the shop, set up the camera and do the shooting.

One problem with old electronics like cameras and computers is things change and they no longer talk well to each other. Youtube has some technical difficulties with older hardware.

Hopefully the video works.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

You don't need to mark tails. Space them by eye and saw them out. If the angles aren't perfectly consisten it doesn't matter, the pin board will be marked and sawn to the state of the tail board. A few degrees difference will never be noticed and the fit perfect as long as the pin board is sawn out well.

How much time do you suppose you've spent making, and keeping true, the various shooting boards I assume you must have?

Charles, it all depends on what you are building, and the standards to which you build. One size does not fit all.

No doubt a practiced pro churning out utilitarian drawers every day would not get pedantic about the angles or finer design details. Frank Klausz is just one who used to teach this. However, moving up the scale to higher end work, it pays to mark out, because one is paid for the extra attention to detail. This is the end of the scale at which I aim. I am not a professional who has to watch the clock. I enjoy the luxury of time to mark out, and I use the time to build pretty complex drawers that would not be cost-effective except to an amateur or high end maker.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Guest]

London pattern, radial, sunburst, Bermuda, none of these require pristine ends to mark and cut. FYI, there's really nobody living nor that has been alive in the last 100 years or so that hand cut dovetails in a shop that could be characterized as anything but a custom maker. Hand cutting dovetails on production furniture hasn't been done since the early 1900s.

[Jim Koepke]

Hand cutting dovetails on production furniture hasn't been done since the early 1900s.

There are not many of us here making production furniture. My closest venture into something close is making multiple potting benches. The corners of the shelf frames were dovetailed. At one time the pieces to make two benches were worked at the same time. Not really production work.

One of my consignments was made for a person who likes the idea of hand made furniture over commonly available machine made furniture.

Even though some money has been made from my woodworking, my status would still likely be considered amateur or hobbyist.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

Nobody is making custom production furniture. Mr. Cohen seemed to believe I was referring to a period of time 150 years in the past which I most definitely was not.

It is not necessary to prepare individual workpieces to a flawless condition in order to cut decorative or even plain dovetails on those workpieces. Now, you may not discover how to do so as long as your time budget in which to get the work done is essentially unlimited, but I can assure you that what I am saying is true. Even custom shops have time budgets though this is no way means that the decorative and exposed joinery is any less spectacular, in fact quite the contrary. See Barnsley, et al.

[Phil Mueller]

Charles, I understand your reference to Barnsley as an example of high quality commissioned pieces. How though do you know that they do not prepare their workpieces to a flawless condition in order to cut dovetails? Not being argumentative, just curious.

[Charles Guest]

Charles, I understand your reference to Barnsley as an example of high quality commissioned pieces. How though do you know that they do not prepare their workpieces to a flawless condition in order to cut dovetails? Not being argumentative, just curious.

Because I was trained there and worked there for a time.

[Derek Cohen]

Nobody is making custom production furniture. Mr. Cohen seemed to believe I was referring to a period of time 150 years in the past which I most definitely was not.

It is not necessary to prepare individual workpieces to a flawless condition in order to cut decorative or even plain dovetails on those workpieces. Now, you may not discover how to do so as long as your time budget in which to get the work done is essentially unlimited, but I can assure you that what I am saying is true. Even custom shops have time budgets though this is no way means that the decorative and exposed joinery is any less spectacular, in fact quite the contrary. See Barnsley, et al.

Charles, I deleted a post because I did not wish to appear argumentative. I am looking forward to your experienced input. But I will now say, which was what I deleted, that you are emphasising that dovetails do not need to be “pristine” when building them, and I am not sure if anyone here - certainly not myself - shoots the ends of a board for that reason. Or thta one needs to mark out dovetails. Perhaps we are talking at crossed purposes.

I shoot the ends of boards to ensure that the baseline is easily marked off. I think that we will agree that a baseline is needed, and that this needs to be square across the side? I find it more efficient to do so from the end with a cutting gauge than scribing a line from the side. Are you saying that you saw your dovetails without squaring the ends?

Secondly, I align boards when transferring from the rear when the tail baseline touches the edge of the pin board. The pin board must be square. So again the issue is one of square ... unless you have another method here.

Current carcase I am working on (mitred through dovetails) ...


https://i.postimg.cc/50m5bbDL/F.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/qMDLNBqG/Kx.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Lastly, I prefer to mark out boards for accuracy since dovetailing is often more complex on my pieces that one generally find on a simple, squared drawer. Generally my drawers involve compound angles.

https://i.postimg.cc/ZK3KdRnq/7a.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Incidentally, by “production” I meant making more than one of a design at the same time, and not as you appear to mean, making hundreds. Neither has much place on this forum, where generally one piece is made at a time, and not done so against a clock.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Mueller]

Wow, Charles, that’s really impressive. Their (your!) work is really outstanding. Appreciate your time to share your experience and expertise with us.

[Rob Luter]

As I learned with golf clubs, you can’t always “buy a better game”. When it comes to the right tool for the right job, many times you can.