Membership Idea

[Yonak Hawkins]

My wife and I were discussing the current membership issue, especially with regard to the idea of cutting off potential new recruits before they have a chance to see what this site is all about. She had an idea which seems good enough to share :

Allow guests to read posts but not see pictures or post messages. Perhaps they could be allowed to visit the Gallery and see images there. I don't know if guests can be identified and blocked by their computer address but, if so, they could be limited to a certain number of visits (I say 20 ; my wife says 10) before they must join.

There could be a trial membership whereby they would be allowed view pictures but still not post. Then, after a certain number of visits as a trial member (again, I say 20 ; my wife says 10), if they do not sign up as a paying member, they're out .. perhaps limited only to viewing the Gallery.

Of course, as Keith fears, a scamp could re-sign again with a different nickname but, having to do that constantly would get pretty old for them and I believe they would eventually fall away. Perhaps full membership could be set at $9 or $12 to cover the guests and trial members. ..Still a bargain.

[Charlie Velasquez]

My wife and I were discussing the current membership issue, especially with regard to the idea of cutting off potential new recruits before they have a chance to see what this site is all about. She had an idea which seems good enough to share ....

Yonak, thank you and tell your wife thanks. Great minds must think alike, as I also had thoughts along those lines.

But that scenario and others have been put forth.
Keith, et al. have pondered over the advantages and disadvantages of the various scenarios. Given the parameters he is willing to undertake as the owner he has decided his current direction is what works best.

If one wants to see a different direction then one needs to be willing to change the parameters.
If someone were to approach him with an offer to administrate the technical aspects needed, or to sign on as an advertising salesperson, or to obtain a site sponsor, I could imagine he may reconsider.

Failing that, nothing will have changed, and the outcome remains the same.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I hosted a forum and the problem is that the software does not let you do whatever you want. To block someone’s access after “x” attempts means you would have to do it manually. There could possibly be a way to time limit by entering an expiration date, but again that would be very manual. My forum got hundreds of spam attempts per day. An admin spends a lot of time already denying all the fake login requests. (By the way, on my forum, most of the hack attempts were from Russia, Romania, and China.)

So, having to manually monitor new members and update their access while also trying to weed out the spammers would be difficult.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Charlie, but such an offer of professional guidance was made by Chris Fairbanks in post 155 over in the "I don't have permission" thread . . .. which Keith soon thereafter closed by locking the thread . . . .

[Matt Day]

Charlie, but such an offer of professional guidance was made by Chris Fairbanks in post 155 over in the "I don't have permission" thread . . .. which Keith soon thereafter closed by locking the thread . . . .

I skimmed that post during that thread, but rereading it now it really sounds to me that Keith should reach out to Chris to discuss his ideas.

[Keith Outten]

Malcolm is right, it is a job every day just reviewing new accounts to try to weed out the spammers. It's also frustrating not having the kind of configuration options that we would all like to have available. We recently tried to eliminate the editing block in the Classifieds Forum and found it was impossible to edit the options for just one particular forum.

As you can imagine I am receiving lots of email and private messages these days from people with good suggestions. Some don't understand what our software configuration options are and some are innovative suggestions that we are considering. I am way behind answering both email and private messages due to my normal workload here and my sign shop schedule but I will respond to everyone who has offered their ideas ASAP. Nothing is cast in stone here, we will evaluate any option that will help us to remain online and financially healthy as long as I can support the workload.

The "Permissions" thread was getting a bit rowdy otherwise it would still be open for posting.

[Andrew Joiner]

Thanks Keith.

[Jim Tobias]

Thanks Keith. Behind the "Creek" all the way wherever it meanders!

Jim

[Yonak Hawkins]

... we will evaluate any option that will help us to remain online and financially healthy as long as I can support the workload.

Thank you, Keith. That's all anyone could ask.

[Matt Day]

Great to hear Keith! I hadn’t heard that you were still evaluating things, I thought thinks were set in stone. Keep us up to date!

[Jim Becker]

Great to hear Keith! I hadn’t heard that you were still evaluating things, I thought thinks were set in stone. Keep us up to date!

There is no doubt in my mind that there will be a subscription required going forward, but how best to handle things like attracting new members can and is being tweaked. That's a combination of "what does the software allow" as well as what is the best compromise that limits abuse, such as constant changing of registrations to gain a few more days of "free" access if that's ultimately on the table. I'm sure that Keith and Aaron will come up with something that works technically as well as practically.

[Pat Barry]

It seems to me that the users/members/subscribers here actually believe this site is more important than the owner/operators. What I mean is that the user community has high expectations and it seems the site is withering. There should be a fulltime IT guy /admin running this place, making improvements, updating software, managing users, fixing bugs, etc. Also needs a fulltime person managing business issues. Way bigger than mom and pop shop as it currently operates. Sorry. Just my opinion based on last year or more.

[Lee Schierer]

It seems to me that the users/members/subscribers here actually believe this site is more important than the owner/operators. What I mean is that the user community has high expectations and it seems the site is withering. There should be a fulltime IT guy /admin running this place, making improvements, updating software, managing users, fixing bugs, etc. Also needs a fulltime person managing business issues. Way bigger than mom and pop shop as it currently operates. Sorry. Just my opinion based on last year or more.

And where does the funding for these people come from?

[Frederick Skelly]

"Originally Posted by Matt Day.
Great to hear Keith! I hadn’t heard that you were still evaluating things, I thought thinks were set in stone. Keep us up to date!"

+1. Thanks for letting us know Keith.

[Greg R Bradley]

And where does the funding for these people come from?
Excellent point.
One thing is sure, it doesn't come from the people who whine about SIX. BUCKS.

[Jim Becker]

There should be a fulltime IT guy /admin running this place, making improvements, updating software, managing users, fixing bugs, etc. Also needs a fulltime person managing business issues. Way bigger than mom and pop shop as it currently operates. Sorry. Just my opinion based on last year or more.

That would cost in the neighborhood of $60-150K a year...and that's just for the IT person. Who pays for it?

[Frank Pratt]

There should be a fulltime IT guy /admin running this place, making improvements, updating software, managing users, fixing bugs, etc. Also needs a fulltime person managing business issues. Way bigger than mom and pop shop as it currently operates. Sorry. Just my opinion based on last year or more.

Haha! That's funny.

[Charlie Velasquez]

It seems to me that the users/members/subscribers here actually believe this site is more important than the owner/operators. What I mean is that the user community has high expectations and it seems the site is withering. There should be a fulltime IT guy /admin running this place, making improvements, updating software, managing users, fixing bugs, etc. Also needs a fulltime person managing business issues. Way bigger than mom and pop shop as it currently operates. Sorry. Just my opinion based on last year or more.

Mmmmm....
Pat, Thanks for the suggestion. If the finances are there or a model is put forth whereas the additional personnel can be funded I am sure Keith will look at it.
However I don’t think your first sentence was very well thought out. I would hazard a guess that neither you, nor anyone on this forum have put as much time, effort, and finances into the Creek. Indeed, probably if you, or anyone else, were to donate the equivalent of what Keith and his family have done this would not even be a topic.
Just my opinion based on my last 14 years.

[Larry Frank]

Pat Berry ....I disagree with your comments and think they are ill advised.

Keith has done a great job with the site and I appreciate the great efforts that he has made. I think your comments are very negative toward Keith and not needed.

[Keith Outten]

It seems to me that the users/members/subscribers here actually believe this site is more important than the owner/operators. What I mean is that the user community has high expectations and it seems the site is withering. There should be a full time IT guy /admin running this place, making improvements, updating software, managing users, fixing bugs, etc. Also needs a full time person managing business issues. Way bigger than mom and pop shop as it currently operates. Sorry. Just my opinion based on last year or more.

Pat, if we had a full time programmer you wouldn't even know this place. We could add so many new features and services The Creek would be an amazing place full of people 24 hours a day running on multiple servers. Sadly it isn't in the cards I'm afraid. The best we can hope for right now is to remain at the current level of services if we are lucky. Maybe one day things will change, there is always a reason to hope.

There was a time when I honestly thought that we would be able to afford a Disneyland kind of Shop Tours feature here because we were growing at an unbelievable rate every month. Unfortunately there has never been a way to convince the masses that a super forum was worth supporting financially. Aaron and I spent weeks developing a list of features for the Shop Tours module and it offered more services that any one of you can even imagine. It was not only searchable it could provide a complete pictorial and text inventory should a Member ever need to file an insurance claim. Internally it was capable of supporting the ability to communicate with anyone to ask questions concerning any machine, technique, etc. The list of features was two pages long but the development costs, although expensive, should have been possible with the support of a Community this large.

We are still growing today, about 50 to 75 people register per day average depending on the season but the problem remains...more people with less funding. This is why we are having this conversation.

Just so everyone knows that we really could have created the Shop Tours module here our server administrator is a seasoned veteran programmer. Aaron did his undergraduate studies at Christopher Newport University, got his Masters degree from The University of Virginia and his PHD from William and Mary. He has been doing custom programming for me since he was in high school. He is a bit more expensive to hire for special projects these days but he is incredibly talented. Aaron has published papers that he has presented to Google, Microsoft and a host of other major corporations all over the world. He has also written Linux kernels, developed a search engine and the list goes on and on....most of it I don't understand. Currently Aaron is a professor at William and Mary with very little time to donate here these days.

I am a welding inspector and sign maker with no software or IT experience. I have no idea why I am here except that I made a promise to keep The Creek online the best I can. I do everything I can here but most days its not enough. I pay the bills and sign the contracts, review new registrations and try to help our Moderators when they have questions. I don't really make the policies here, they are pretty much dictated by the majority of this Community. I listen and try my best to find a compromise that suits as many people as I can. I'm also the guy that people blame when something doesn't go their way here. Go to just about any woodworking forum on the internet and you will find more derogatory comments made about me than you can imagine but I take it all in stride. I'm here 365 days a year and you can bet that whenever The Creek goes down I am in overdrive doing whatever I can to get us back online.

[Patrick Walsh]

Well you know,

I wouldn’t want to keep up with everything involved unless there was something significant $$ for me.

So you know Keith, THANK YOU!

If people are saying bad things about you elsewhere I have never heard it. But you know this is the only Woodworking forum I visit. People can say all they want but until it’s theirs to say I don’t even get bothered by it. The world of full of you know what’s..

[Frederick Skelly]

I appreciate what you do here Keith. I think most of us do.

Thanks for all you and Jackie do.

Fred

[Ronald Blue]

Keith, since the transition started have you saw any increase in paying members? Just curious. I hope you have saw some change in a positive direction. Thank you and Jackie for all you do here to keep the Creek operating. I for one appreciate it. I have been a contributor almost since day one because I quickly realized the wealth of knowledge that abounds here. That and it's usually just good reading.

[Keith Outten]

Yes, we have seen an increase in Members becoming Contributors over the last month. I expect that the ability to view pictures will also increase the number of people who make the transition but we have a long way to go.

I am encouraged by the recent progress and with the positive feedback I have been receiving. I also am getting some excellent advice concerning other forums that have made the same transition and have been very successful. I believe that success will be based entirely on the decisions made by this Community not me or our Staff, that is how other communities have survived this kind of transition. More on this later.

[Yonak Hawkins]

Ronald, I like the clever way you use the word "saw". Clearly it's intentional as your other grammar is impeccable.

[Bill Carey]

Yes, we have seen an increase in Members becoming Contributors over the last month.

well that's something at least. Your hard work is appreciated Keith. And the derogatory comments elsewhere says more about them than you. Keep letting roll of your back.

[Stewie Simpson]

well that's something at least. Your hard work is appreciated Keith. And the derogatory comments elsewhere says more about them than you. Keep letting roll of your back.

Bill; I am a supporter with making this site a user pay system, but that doesn't blind to the fact that derogatory comments have been freely flowing from both sides of the debate.

Stewie;

[Ronald Blue]

Good to know that you have saw progress Keith. I hope in the end there is enough conversion to accomplish the needed funding level.

[Bill Carey]

Bill; I am a supporter with making this site a user pay system, but that doesn't blind to the fact that derogatory comments have been freely flowing from both sides of the debate.

Stewie;

No argument with that Stewiie. But my point is valid no matter which direction the invective is flowing. And I'm as guilty as anyone - had more than my share of "Oh ya - well your mama wears combat boots" moments

[Ronald Blue]

Ronald, I like the clever way you use the word "saw". Clearly it's intentional as your other grammar is impeccable.

I will never tell.... I don't want to lose my edge.

[Bill Dufour]

Is there some way that visitors could see the picture links for say one time for free in articles then have to join and pay to see them again. Or maybe a timer so the pictures are free for all in new articles for say 36 hours, then only paid members get to see them.
you have to let folks see enough, on multiple visits, to realize it is worth joining. Some sites look good until you realize people , posting questions have to wait weeks for responses. Since there is very little current activity. Some of them are not even active but just have archives online.
Bil lD.

[Keith Outten]

I have not seen any type of timer that can be set in vBulletin.

[Rob Luter]

I wonder if there's some sort of utility that wouldn't allow non-contributors to access the site with an active ad blocker. As a news junkie, I come across plenty of news sites with various forms of paywall. A common one is "Either subscribe (contribute) or shut off your ad blocker to gain access". I use an ad blocker because some sites have ads that are absolutely insufferable. They basically take over the page. Sawmill Creek ad content isn't like that.

[Stan Calow]

How about reaching out to organized woodworking clubs, guilds or whatever they call themselves, and offer a group membership rate and or some special forum for meeting notices or something along those lines? Maybe that already exists and I'm not aware.

[Keith Outten]

Rob, someone has suggested that there is an add-on for vBulletin that would stop ad-blockers.I will be looking for information about this option.

Stan, we tried to attract woodworking groups in the past and we even offered them private forums here however it did not generate any funds.