Martin T-17 rebuild

[Darcy Warner]

Pulling a t-17 apart for rebuild.

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[Phil Mueller]

You know we love these restoration threads. Thanks for letting us follow along.

[Patrick Walsh]

This pretty much sums up how I feel about this..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EJZIztOWmwM

[Darcy Warner]

This pretty much sums up how I feel about this..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EJZIztOWmwM

Took about 4 hours to get it apart.

Half the fence parts cleaned and ready for paint prep.

[Darcy Warner]

I only found one actual broken part. One of the teeth on the hand wheel gear for tilt was broken off. Didn't notice it in usage, just take it next door and have the tooth fixed.

Trying to order new stickers, and see what parts I can still get. Need to hunt down the horrible manual.

[Joe Calhoon]

Darcy,
I have the manual and sliding table setup for these. It’s not much of a manual and it’s from the older version of the saw. I don’t know if they had a English version for the machines from the 70s. If I get your PM I will send what I have.
And still would like to get your spindle copied.
joe

[Darcy Warner]

Been busy, hauled a wadkin EEC resaw, couple 12" jointers, a 24" BS, a 24" jointer, 16" jointer, 3 Oliver TS, and a PM 24" planer home last week, had parts show up for several other machines as well.

Almost all parts are clean, all hardware is done, some painting has been started. Today I had time to get the arbor apart and the motor apart, between trying to help my kids make bike ramps for the shop, shipping equipment and keeping a couple guys busy working.

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[David Buchhauser]

Darcy - keep up the good work! Now I don't have to strain my neck.
David

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[Mike King]

Darcy - keep up the good work! Now I don't have to strain my neck.
David

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how do you rotate those photos?

[Brian Holcombe]

Looks great!

[David Buchhauser]

how do you rotate those photos?


Hi Mike,
I use Irfanview 64 - this is free program for viewing and editing photos.
David

https://www.irfanview.com/64bit.htm

[Darcy Warner]

Sorry, I take all my pictures not in landscape orientation, basically because they all go on IG and that's how it's set up for pictures. This forum turns them sideways.

[Frank Pratt]

That's one of the weak points of this forum software. It's the only forum I visit that has this issue.

[Darcy Warner]

I had a chance to do something on this, mostly because I put my new benches in my way and needed to try them out. 411143

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Once my guy gets this arbor copied for Joe, I can put that and the motor back.

I believe these things were assembled upside down and flipped over after the base was put on.

[Patrick Walsh]

Darcy looks really nice.

Is there any need to grease the worm gear?

I’m loathing compressing that spring and getting the strut put back in my machine.

Mark has outlined a fairly safe way to do it but I’m still nervous. Anything can go wrong at anytime and with a spring like that preloaded removing it from a arbor press with that shim in there and handling it while I get it back in the machine has me with some pretty cold feet.

I probably look back and wonder what I made a big deal about. Well hopefully......

[Darcy Warner]

After having a few of these apart, I am not sure about the grease lube of that part. It always collects a bunch of dust in there and makes sticky dust cakes, but they all have been in good shape. I say light grease and keep on blowing that area out with compressed air.
I eliminated the open bearings for the arbor and used shielded, too much of a PIA to get to the grease fittings and it makes a sticky dust mess. Still rated for 2x arbors max rpm. Motor got 2RS, had shielded one side and no way to lube them, looked to be original bearings??

[Patrick Walsh]

I reluctantly left mine dry. All the sawdust I found in it seemed to only make sense to not lube. On the other hand maybe the lube keeps pitch and whatnot from getting jammed in the gears?

When I ordered bearings they showed up shielded. I popped a shield off one face for the arbor. For the motor I left them shielded.

What’s your plan for the giant spring strut?


After having a few of these apart, I am not sure about the grease lube of that part. It always collects a bunch of dust in there and makes sticky dust cakes, but they all have been in good shape. I say light grease and keep on blowing that area out with compressed air.
I eliminated the open bearings for the arbor and used shielded, too much of a PIA to get to the grease fittings and it makes a sticky dust mess. Still rated for 2x arbors max rpm. Motor got 2RS, had shielded one side and no way to lube them, looked to be original bearings??

[Brian Holcombe]

I think you need a lubricant. What about dry lube for chains?

[Patrick Walsh]

Yeah I have been wondering/considering the same.

I have no experience with dry lube except on bike chains like say T-9 i think it was called.

On machinery though I really have no idea how it applies and or what brands are used..

Been considering what I’ll use to lube the chains that turn the worm gear speaking of chains and lube.


I think you need a lubricant. What about dry lube for chains?

[Mark Hennebury]

Grease the spring and inside the tube, or it will squeak every time you tilt the blade.


Darcy looks really nice.

Is there any need to grease the worm gear?

I’m loathing compressing that spring and getting the strut put back in my machine.

Mark has outlined a fairly safe way to do it but I’m still nervous. Anything can go wrong at anytime and with a spring like that preloaded removing it from a arbor press with that shim in there and handling it while I get it back in the machine has me with some pretty cold feet.

I probably look back and wonder what I made a big deal about. Well hopefully......

[Darcy Warner]

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Wish it was a slider, but still happy to have a 77 back in the shop. I will always miss my 77 slider.

[Darcy Warner]

Captain slacker pants checking in.

Base done, ready to start going back together

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[Darcy Warner]

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Couple more

[Brian Holcombe]

Looks great.

[Joe Calhoon]

Looking good Darcy. Looks like a close color match to the original.
Did you mention that you use water base paint? What brand?

[Darcy Warner]

Yes, it's an industrial acrylic enamel.
Comes from a local paint store, made by Harrison paint company.

It's taken a while to get my reduction correct with floetrol and a bit of water.

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[Darcy Warner]

Stupid dust shields are driving me up the wall.415493

[Darcy Warner]

It's got guts.

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[Mark Hennebury]

Looking good!
Whats is the issue with the dust shields?

[Darcy Warner]

Looking good!
Whats is the issue with the dust shields?

Other than they are just a total pia to deal with (the ones on the frame are pretty much useless) had it with drive screws, drilled and tapped all the ones on the arbor assembly for 8-32s.

[Patrick Kane]

Thought it would be better to post here rather than start a new thread. A few questions for the guys who have worked on T-17s. One, did all saws come standard with the sliding table? How does the beam attach to the saw chasis? The one im looking at does not have the sliding table attached to the saw, but im assuming its nearby in the same storage facility. Two, how difficult is it to work on these machines? Ive redone several unisaws from the ground up and a PM72, which i assume are child's play compared to this machine. Im up for a challenge, but i also dont want to get myself into a fight that is far beyond my abilities. Are parts still available, or are you up the creek without a paddle if you need something?

[Mark Hennebury]

Below is the link to my rebuild; judge for yourself if its something that you want to take on.
You will see the beam attaches with two clamp brackets that are bolted to the base.
I don't think that you will find many parts available, but you would have to check for specific parts with the manufacturer.

https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/tools/power-tools/vintage-power-tools/1062248-martin-t17-breakdown



Thought it would be better to post here rather than start a new thread. A few questions for the guys who have worked on T-17s. One, did all saws come standard with the sliding table? How does the beam attach to the saw chasis? The one im looking at does not have the sliding table attached to the saw, but im assuming its nearby in the same storage facility. Two, how difficult is it to work on these machines? Ive redone several unisaws from the ground up and a PM72, which i assume are child's play compared to this machine. Im up for a challenge, but i also dont want to get myself into a fight that is far beyond my abilities. Are parts still available, or are you up the creek without a paddle if you need something?

[Brian Holcombe]

I haven't rebuilt one, but I can say from building the maka that it's very valuable to get as complete a machine as possible and one that's in as best a shape as possible. I work under the assumption that missing parts will need to be fabricated and if you're not doing that in-house it becomes hugely expensive quickly.

[Joe Calhoon]

Brian has it, missing parts can be a problem. Especially cast parts. My T17 is pretty complete except for the miter gauge and some parts missing off the fence stops. Mine came with the long fence Where it sits in the shop that fence is too big and not needed so I adapted a short felder fence to it.
a previous owner had a extended arbor made and it is a butcher job. Luckily Darcy had his out and his machinist is copying it. Not much is available from the factory on these.

T 17 was available without a sliding table but all were drilled to accept the brackets it mounts to.

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My similar by design T23 shaper was missing a cast part off the fence - clamp assembly. The dimensions are critical for the angle marks to be accurate. A friend had his machinist make a replacement part out of aluminum. Once you start something like this you have to keep going and sometimes it’s not easy or inexpensive!

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[Darcy Warner]

Top on.

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Here are the main issues of any rebuild:

Broken parts (not really an issue for me anymore)
Missing parts (martin has some, others you better know where to call to find them)
Had the wrong parts/bolts/nuts, etc. (Not easy to figure out until you start putting it back together)
Forklift or gantry crane is a must.
It can get frustrating and Joe is right, once you get in too deep sometimes the only way out is throwing money at the problem.

[Patrick Kane]

Hmm, that’s a shame. Is this saw worth owning without the sliding table? I’m considering selling the PM72 I just redid to get the Martin. To what end? I have no idea! From what you all are saying, this will be a monster PITA. I have a Felder KF700, so I don’t really need two table saws or two sliders.

One other question. What are the dimensions of the base chassis? I would need to get it through a 33” door.

I need to look into the paint you used, Darcy. Cleaning my gun and equipment of the oil based enamel was god awful.

[Darcy Warner]

Hmm, that’s a shame. Is this saw worth owning without the sliding table? I’m considering selling the PM72 I just redid to get the Martin. To what end? I have no idea! From what you all are saying, this will be a monster PITA. I have a Felder KF700, so I don’t really need two table saws or two sliders.

One other question. What are the dimensions of the base chassis? I would need to get it through a 33” door.

I need to look into the paint you used, Darcy. Cleaning my gun and equipment of the oil based enamel was god awful.

Without a sliding table, it's kind of just another well built industrial cabinet saw of the time. I think there are better, cheaper, easier options out there for that kind of saw.
Whitney 77/177 tanny XJ, oliver 88s, etc. Much easier to rebuild one of those or find a nice one for a reasonable cost.

The martin wouldn't fit through a 33" door, well maybe but not by much.

I think I have 8 or 10 TS. My two favorites are a 495 greenlee and a whitney 77, easy saws to adjust and use.

A 2k pound saw will make a pm72 look like a portable saw.

[Patrick Kane]

Yes, I could have had a few cheap Whitney’s the last 12 months, but I’ve seen specs on the saw and the base is too wide. Can’t get it through the door. Same for most of the tannewitz models, I think. There was a type U for sale here that was $200ish. I know that’s the least desirable of tannewitz’ offerings, but you are right about the price being right. But, my one issue with the older American saws are dust collection, riving knife, and style. That tannewitz did nothing for me from an aesthetic point of few. It was just a lump of iron. I nearly had a Wadkin PKF last year for $300. Shop closing down in Queens and I had first dibs on it. Then, I found out the owner sold it out from underneath me to another guy. Oddly enough I saw the machine on a forum not too long ago. Another hobbyist got it. That wadkin would have checked all the boxes. Super cheap unlike the PK, excellent style, and most of the conveniences of modern safety equipment. This T17 had me thinking similar thoughts. It’s the one in jersey for $450. It may be only a parts machine, but I was thinking about gambling.

The PM72 is a fine saw for what I do. It’s not like I’m running machines on two shifts a day, but I’ve stalled the 5hp motor many times now while ripping 8/4. The bevel and height adjustments are fine, but I want effortless buttery movements. The felder is actually the best I’ve ever experienced. The height adjustment is sublime on that machine. The 72 is a heavy enough machine with the optional extended wing, but it lacks a lot of the refinement and extraordinary care towards detail and refinement. The 72 is the Sherman, where as the PK or T17 strike me as more of the Jagdpanther.

I read a couple pages of mark’s experience and this sounds like a tiger I don’t want to wrestle with. Comprising a spring that can kill you? Assembling components to a top and then inverting the top onto the base? A lot of this stuff sounds beyond my abilities. Still, I do like seeing new and different machines.

[Darcy Warner]

Greenlee 495 was ahead of it's time with DC.

The Oliver saws had good DC, riving knife, over blade guard, etc. I have a few really nice complete ones, 88s and a 270. I really like the 270.

Another great saw is the Moak Monotrol. Ugly, but a wonderful table saw.

[Joe Calhoon]

Patrick, have you inspected the saw? It might not need much work. I spent a couple days, cleaning and adjusting mine and could probably use it for several years without doing anything. It looks rough and I will restore it but it functions fine. The homemade extended shaft is hacked as it goes out in length but single blades run true.
I think the ballbearing fence and micro adjustment is one of the unique features of these.

[Patrick Kane]

Have not, its 6 hours away. Im assuming its semi-rough, because its in some junkyard of sorts. The guy said they forked it outside for photos, but the riving knife looks bent. I know Darcy has seen rougher, but i dont think this is plug n play.

[Darcy Warner]

Have not, its 6 hours away. Im assuming its semi-rough, because its in some junkyard of sorts. The guy said they forked it outside for photos, but the riving knife looks bent. I know Darcy has seen rougher, but i dont think this is plug n play.

I just looked that up. That's a parts machine imo.

[Brian Holcombe]

That'll be a labor of love, no doubt.

Couple thoughts come to mind: Will the table clean up? If not do you have access to someone who runs a metal planer? Second though is that people don't usually junk these type of machines so I'd be curious to know if it runs and if it doesn't run I'd want to know if any major parts are damaged and preventing it from turning over.

If there isn't something really wrecked about it, if they had the sliding table assembly and if I had a recent tetanus shot I might be tempted to take that mess home, but as Darcy mentions that looks like a parts machine to me as well.

Heavy parts aren't a big deal if you have space and hydraulic lift or chain hoist. It's a PITA for me at my current shop, but when I used to break down heavy things at the machine shop with a hydraulic lift and cherry picker it was no trouble. We broke down motors as large as 12 cylinder diesels with mainly just a heavy duty cherry picker.

Patience and careful planning go a long ways with heavy things.

[David Kumm]

I'd hold out for a short stroke slider. In the fixed saw world you can get a Whitney, Greenlee, Yates, Oliver etc that is plug and play for 750-1500. I have my short stroke set up right now with a 45 and the long slider with the other 45 and a bunch of stops for window trim. A short and long handle pretty much everything you need to cut. Dave

[Patrick Kane]

That'll be a labor of love, no doubt.

Couple thoughts come to mind: Will the table clean up? If not do you have access to someone who runs a metal planer? Second though is that people don't usually junk these type of machines so I'd be curious to know if it runs and if it doesn't run I'd want to know if any major parts are damaged and preventing it from turning over.

If there isn't something really wrecked about it, if they had the sliding table assembly and if I had a recent tetanus shot I might be tempted to take that mess home, but as Darcy mentions that looks like a parts machine to me as well.

Heavy parts aren't a big deal if you have space and hydraulic lift or chain hoist. It's a PITA for me at my current shop, but when I used to break down heavy things at the machine shop with a hydraulic lift and cherry picker it was no trouble. We broke down motors as large as 12 cylinder diesels with mainly just a heavy duty cherry picker.

Patience and careful planning go a long ways with heavy things.

Haha you and i think alike, which might not be a good thing for you. I just hate to see tools like that rust away. How many T-17s are in this country, do you think? Its a machine i see about as frequently as a wadkin PK, so i know there arent many. If it was closer, i would have made the mistake of buying it already. The guy would probably take $300, and id figure the rest out from there. Moving it to my place would cost me several hundred, and i just dont know if i want to gamble $800 on what looks to be issue after issue. I still might if he finds the sliding table assembly and its complete.

Havent needed the services of a planer yet, but im sure one exists here locally. Pittsburgh is full of inexpensive machinists with enormous tools leftover from the good ol' days.

[Darcy Warner]

Pretty sure that saw was a regular old t17 cabinet saw variety, especially with that fence that is on it.

[peter gagliardi]

What does that mean Darcy? “Regular old cabinet saw variety”- no sliding table? I don’t know why that fence equates to that?
My T75’s all have that type of fence, they all have sliders. Of course its hard to be exact, that pic is small.

[Darcy Warner]

What does that mean Darcy? “Regular old cabinet saw variety”- no sliding table? I don’t know why that fence equates to that?
My T75’s all have that type of fence, they all have sliders. Of course its hard to be exact, that pic is small.

Almost all the Martin literature I have accumulated always showed that plain rip style fence on the non slider version of the 17

[Patrick Kane]

Ill be darned, but Darcy is correct, the T-17 apparently came in a non-slider model. There is an example of a slider-less 17 on a popular auction site right now. Alongside some other Martin goodies.

I am very curious why they made it without a sliding table?

[Darcy Warner]

Ill be darned, but Darcy is correct, the T-17 apparently came in a non-slider model. There is an example of a slider-less 17 on a popular auction site right now. Alongside some other Martin goodies.

I am very curious why they made it without a sliding table?

Because some people didn't need or want it.
Some didn't need or want 98" slider, or the short stroke.
Options.

[Darcy Warner]

Some pictures.

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[Darcy Warner]

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Remembered why I don't post many pictures.

[Patrick Kane]

The machine looks great. You guys put an enormous amount of effort into small details. The rods on that clamp look better than anything in my shop.

[Darcy Warner]

The machine looks great. You guys put an enormous amount of effort into small details. The rods on that clamp look better than anything in my shop.

Well, it's for a customer and he is paying for an expecting good or better than new. I ordered 30mm ground and polished shaft, my guy doing my machine work took the liberty to put a small radius/dome on the ends because it looked nice and keeps you from having a sharp edge.

[Darcy Warner]

Today I had to figure out a way to make the actual clamp part of the clamp work correctly. The original plunger looks to have spent a lot of time at the beach (saw came from Miami) and the swivel bearing was locked up and the pad missing. I decided on using a swivel pad from a machine leveler and will have shaft remade with M16 threads on the end to accept new hold down pad. Fairly cheap, fairly easy and will look factory.

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[David Kumm]

The guy buying the saw should pop for Mac's clamps. A million times better than manual. www.airtightclamps.com Dave

[Darcy Warner]

The guy buying the saw should pop for Mac's clamps. A million times better than manual. www.airtightclamps.com Dave

I am not a fan of pneumatic clamps on most machines, one I hate having to deal with an air hose/line, two I just like nice manual cam action clamps. As close to original as possible are my guidelines.

Also, all the components of those are from Kipp, except the clamp.

[Joe Calhoon]

I have a collection of old Martin, new Martin and Hofmann cam clamps. The best clamps of this type I have used but no comparison to the ease, speed and consistent clamping of pneumatic. Mac does a great job of engineering the hoses, controls and connections.

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[Mark e Kessler]

Darcy, what is the cost of the kipp aluminum cross clamp? I used rose + krieger cross clamps for my air clamp builds and they were $32.50 each

Mark


I am not a fan of pneumatic clamps on most machines, one I hate having to deal with an air hose/line, two I just like nice manual cam action clamps. As close to original as possible are my guidelines.

Also, all the components of those are from Kipp, except the clamp.

[Darcy Warner]

Darcy, what is the cost of the kipp aluminum cross clamp? I used rose + krieger cross clamps for my air clamp builds and they were $32.50 each

Mark

Like 29 or 30 bucks. The kicker was 15 bucks for shipping from Germany, they don't stock those tube clamp components here. US headquarters is in MI.

[Darcy Warner]

I have a collection of old Martin, new Martin and Hofmann cam clamps. The best clamps of this type I have used but no comparison to the ease, speed and consistent clamping of pneumatic. Mac does a great job of engineering the hoses, controls and connections.

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Put air clamps on one of my tenoners, hoses drove me nuts. While some of those look super tidy, I still don't like all the hoses. Now bluetooth electromagnetic, count me in.

[Darcy Warner]

Oh hey there good looking.

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[Jim Becker]

That looks spectacular, Darcy!

[Mark Hennebury]

Great job Darcy!

[Darcy Warner]

Time to skid and crate.
Altendorf fence parts grafted to a martin t-17.

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[Bradley Gray]

Wow. attn sawstop fans - This, is a high end saw.

[Mike Delyster]

Beautiful saw. Very nice work Darcy.
I really like those saws with their shorter stroke slider.

[Patrick Walsh]

Again Darcy great job and awesome saw.

Making me want one and I don’t I clearly don’t have the need or room. One sitting local to me in great shape for what I call short money. Killing me to not be mad of money and just go buy it.

I really like that saw. The guy that sold me the t23 had one and it was the first time I had even seen one in person. I was very impressed.