Outdoor finishes questions

[Bill Jobe]

I have a few questions regarding clear outdoor finishes. My shutters are sanded back down to bare wood after just one year.
First of all I read that oil base is superior to poly. Is it?
Is applying acrylic really important as a first coat if several coats of clear coat will applied?
One site I looked at mentioned paint base of some kind. Before pigment is added.
Is that acrylic paint and is that what is used?
And finally, what single product, by brand, contains the highest level UV block/obsorb?
I am ok with a yellow shift.

[Jim Becker]

Just as an aside, you say/ask: "I read that oil base is superior to poly. Is it?" "Poly" refers to polyurethane resin and there are both oil based and water borne products that contain polyurethane. So the obvious answer to your question requires specific products to compare. Water borne products are all acrylics, even when they contain polyurethane resin in whatever concentration the manufacturer did. Theoretically, my understanding is that an oil based polyurethane varnish "may" be more durable than a water borne product because the former is created by heating to transform the individual ingredients from what they are into varnish. Water borne finishes are not made quite the same way. And polyurethane itself's primary benefit is abrasion resistance. But many modern water borne products are pretty darn good compared to a decade or more ago.

That all said, if you are intending for your wood shutters to stay looking like freshly milled, new wood, it just isn't going to happen for anything more than a short period of time, regardless of the level or UV protection in the finish. UV protection "helps" with the length of time, but the natural greying of wood outside is also from oxidation, not just UV. And with a film finish, you also can get staining from water if the film cracks in any way. Paint or stain with whatever level of transparency you prefer is a better outdoor finish for wood than a clear film oil based varnish or acrylic water borne finish. Some folks prefer a penetrating oil product like Sikkens for outdoor wood that isn't going to be colored. In all cases, regular maintenance is going to be on your calendar.

Regarding your question about deep tint base exterior paint used as a clear, some folks have posted about that historically. Deep tint base is pretty much clear and as an exterior product, it's likely UV stabilized. I have not personally used it.

[Bill Jobe]

Thank you, Jim.
Another question I meant to ask was with regard to type of look desired. I want a satin finish. Some say use glossy on all but the final satin coat will render the greatest grain depth while others claim several coats of satin will have greater UV protection .
Will several coats of satin last longer but dull the grain more than all glossy with one coat of satin, the latter looking better from the start but not lasting as long?

[Bill Jobe]

As a test, I did her window boxes with several coats of Hellman's Clear Satin and plan to use what is believed to be the best there is on the shutters.
Perhaps a year or 2 from now I'll know what to use next time.
By the way, with several coats of clear, when the wood begins to fade, does all of the finish need removed and redone or will fine sanding and more coats do the same thing?
I spent nearly 7 hours yesterday just sanding 6 shutters down to bare wood.

[John TenEyck]

As Jim said, clear film finish for exterior work is a recipe for never ending maintenance. Ask the owner of any boat with exterior wood. But if you just have to have a clear finish you would be far better served with a marine varnish, like Epifanes over an epoxy primer, than Helmsman. It will take 7 coats of Epifanes and at least one additional coat every year to maintain it.

John

[Bill Jobe]

Thanks everyone.
John I googled epoxy primers and this came up. http://mgmt-www.sherwin-automotive.com/fleet-refinishing/media-center/blog/epoxy-primers-vs-urethane-primers/
Not saying you are wrong. I'm simply looking for the truth.
Each year you simply sand lightly and add a new coat?
I could live with that real easy.
Here's what I'm trying to preserve.

[Bennett Ostroff]

I would strongly consider painting them. A hardware store or Lowe's/HD will help point you in the right direction for a good exterior paint.

[John TenEyck]

Bill, your link goes to info. that is mostly out of context in that it's for metal substrates. But it is correct that epoxies will degrade with exposure to UV. That's why you have to topcoat them with a UV absorbing varnish like Epifanes. Take a look at this link: https://www.multiwoodprime.com/

John

[Bill Jobe]

I would strongly consider painting them. A hardware store or Lowe's/HD will help point you in the right direction for a good exterior paint.

Not gonna happen.

[Bill Jobe]

What is the best epoxy for a first finish?
Can it be made into a thickness that can be b rushed or rolled on?
I'm considering passing on a coat if epoxy due to time restraints.
I can add layers of Epifanes.
By the way, which version of their product should I be considering?
Also, I want a satin finish but I have not seen it in that brand.
Should I apply 5 or 6 coats of Epifanes and one coat of satin of some sort?

[John TenEyck]

I don't know if this is the best epoxy primer under Epifanes, but many folks say it's very good: http://www.smithandcompany.org/products.html

And there is always West Systems Epoxies: https://www.westsystem.com/instruction-2/epoxy-basics/finish-coatings/

Epifanes Clear Gloss Varnish:

https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=92

Epifanes Wood Finish Matte Varnish: https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4123


John

[Edwin Santos]

Hi,

I too like satin finishes, but the people at Waterlox told me their marine varnish only comes in high gloss because the gloss is part of the system of UV protection. In other words higher reflectivity means greater UV resistance.

However I notice on the Epifanes website that they make a product called Wood Finish Matte which is designed to go over their gloss varnish, so it appears you can do what you are seeking with their product line. Maybe shoot Epifanes an email and seek their guidance. If you do this, please post back with an update on whatever you learn.

Edwin

[Bill Jobe]

There are simply too many products. I can't get my head around all the hype.
Meanwhile the 3 pairs of shutters are down to bare wood and sanded to 220 and leaning against the inside shop wall.
I covered them with plywood to protect them from indirect uv.
For now I am at a standstill.

[Steve Schoene]

Smith (exact name escapes at moment) is a low viscosity epoxy designed exactly for this use. It’s available at Jamestown Distributors. It really adds durability since it reduces moisture and oxygen penetrAtion. Top coat with Epiphanes

[John TenEyck]

Smith (exact name escapes at moment) is a low viscosity epoxy designed exactly for this use. It’s available at Jamestown Distributors. It really adds durability since it reduces moisture and oxygen penetrAtion. Top coat with Epiphanes

Follow the link I posted in my last message. Same thing for both the gloss and satin sheens of Epifanes.



John

[Bill Jobe]

Anyone know of a lower price for Epifanes clear high gloss varnish?
JD wants $14 shipping plus $5 hazardous material charge.
That's almost $60 for a quart of varnish.

[John TenEyck]

Amazon has it for $45 with free shipping if you have Prime.

John

[Bill Jobe]

Amazon has it for $45 with free shipping if you have Prime.

John

And I cancelled Prime months ago because I didn't see much advantage to me.....
Guess I'll have to rethink that.
Thanks, John. And thank all who responded.
I appreciate being able to get solid advice quickly.

[Bill Jobe]

Frustrated with how to proceed with the shutters, I grabbed a box of Famowood Glaze Coat while at Lowes.
Today I did some last minute sanding, vacuuming and wiping down a pair when suddenly I noticed it is for indoor use only.
I plan to put on 8 coats of Epifanes gloss as they suggest.
Wouldn't that hold up under that much varnish?
I'm not going to give them a thick coat. My plan is to spread it on and hang them from the top. That way any excess will run off and go unnoticed.
Then 8 coats of varnish.


Am I making a mistake?

[Bill Jobe]

As a seal coat on the bare wood I'm using West Systems.
Can I brush it on, then hang them up vertically to let the excess run off? All I want to do is seal the wood tight not sure a flooded surface is needed?
After the epoxy cures I intend to give the shutters the full 8 coats of the vvarnish recomended.
It arrives today. The Epifanes came yesterday.
Wouldn't have done me any good to have gotten them any sooner. It has rained almost every day here.
Today is perfect.

[Art Mann]

That finishing schedule (West epoxy plus Epifanes Spar Varnish) is about the best you can possibly do. It is often used on wooden boat hulls and trim. Even so, you are going to have a yearly maintenance schedule on your hands to keep the wood looking good. As Jim Becker said early on, there just isn't a clear finish that will hold up for several years without maintenance.

[Bill Jobe]

If all I have to do is sand lightly and add another coat or 2 of the varnish, I'm ok with that. On the other hand, if that means stripping them down to bare wood every time they dull, I may end up painting them next year.

[Art Mann]

Depending on the situation, that may be all you will need.

[Bill Jobe]

By using epoxy to seal the wood, is there any need to add thinner to the varnish on any coat?

[John TenEyck]

I think not, and I think you won't need the recommended 7 coats either; 4 or 5 should be plenty if the wood truly is sealed.

John

[Bill Jobe]

Brushed on epoxy to back of shutters late afternoon yesterday and it is still very sticky.

Any idea why?

I did not flood the wood, I simply spread it around and any excess I wiped off with a sponge and put it back in the container I mixed it in (plastic cups)

Could water popping have done this? I sanded it down with 220, using 50/50 alcohol & water. Then vacuumed real good and wiped them down again to raise the clean (hopefully) open cells.
Then they were left to dry out for 24 hours.
It's amazing how much more depth and contrast between light and dark areas, and grain far "deeper" looking.

What did I do wrong?

[Bennett Ostroff]

Either you didn't mix the correct ratio or didn't mix well enough. Most West System is not a 1:1 ratio. But if this was all done correctly, it may just need more time/heat to harden. The thinner the coat, the longer it will take to harden. I don't think water popping was necessary.

[Bill Jobe]

The kit included 3 pumps and a wide variety of pieces to fit all of their various size containers.
I had to shorten the hardener down tube in the pump. . but the epoxy pump seamed to be the correct size. I then followed the pump priming procedure for both products and mixed well.

At one point, and I do not understand why, the foam brush got very hot. The epoxy got so hot I could not touch it with my bare hand.

It is a thin coat, so that may be the reason for it not drying to the touch this soon.

[Bennett Ostroff]

A mixing container with epoxy even an inch or two deep will get very hot very fast, even with slow setting epoxy. Epoxy produces heat as it cures... the deeper the pour, the harder it is for heat to escape off the surface and will quickly become a snowball effect. As far as your thin layer, wait until medium pressure with a fingernail won't scratch it before coating with varnish. Could be days.