A new set of chisels from Stan

[Keith Mathewson]

I had the opportunity to purchase a new set of chisels from Stan recently and was quite impressed with both the quality and the price. Stan was very easy to do business with. He advised me to buy a specialty tool for cleaning out the bottom of mortises and it greatly exceeded my expectations. One can literally plane the bottom of a mortise with this tool. If you are in the market for Japanese tools I feel he would be a good source.

[Stewie Simpson]

Keith; who was the maker of that nice set of H & R moulding planes.

Stewie;

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=409036&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1556668063

[Keith Mathewson]

Hi Stewie,

The evens I bought from Old Street back when they were Clark & Williams. I waited over 2 years to receive them. The odds, side rounds, snipe bills & shoulder planes I bought from Matt Bickford.

[Stewie Simpson]

Thanks Keith.

[Vincent Tai]

Nice looking chisels! can you post pics of the backside, hollows etc?

[Brad Lehman]

Silly question, but what's that in the picture of the chisel, kinda looks like a short length of bamboo?

Also, who is this Stan?

[Flamone LaChaud]

Silly question, but what's that in the picture of the chisel, kinda looks like a short length of bamboo?

Also, who is this Stan?
Not a silly question. It's a short length of bamboo. . . . with a rolled up piece of fabric that's been impregnated with oil. Basically a quick lubricant swipe that makes cutting much easier. Some prefer wax instead - but same philosophy.

Second answer: Stan Covington, a woodworker/builder that's lived in Japan for several years and has become an expert in Japanese tools. Search for posts he started to learn about some very interesting tools.

[Brad Lehman]

Not a silly question. It's a short length of bamboo. . . . with a rolled up piece of fabric that's been impregnated with oil. Basically a quick lubricant swipe that makes cutting much easier. Some prefer wax instead - but same philosophy.


Interesting. I could see that being pretty handy. Is there a proper name or term for such a contraption?

[Flamone LaChaud]

Ask and ye shall receive, straight from the fingers of the man himself:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?243280-The-Essential-Oilpot&highlight=

[Matt Lau]

Glad to see that people haven't forgotten Stan.

[Tony Zona]

Where did Stan go?

[Edwin Santos]

Stan appears to be our forum's answer to Bill Brasky.

[Tony Zona]

Now I don't know who Bill Brasky is.

[Jim Koepke]

Where did Stan go?

Stan didn't go anywhere. He was a member/contributor to this forum. He would also discretely acquire tools for people when they requested. Then a discussion ensued when someone mentioned how pleased they were with tools they bought from Stan. After a while it ended up in a "parting of the ways" between Stan and the Sawmill Creek community.

It is sad because he is a very knowledgeable person and often shared many techniques and historical bits of information with the forum.

jtk

[Edwin Santos]

Now I don't know who Bill Brasky is.

It's an old recurring SNL skit where a trio of salesmen sit around in a bar swapping stories about a legendary character they all know and admire named Bill Brasky. In the skit you never see Bill Brasky but the stories about him get more and more ridiculously epic. If you watch the skit and then imagine Stan substituted for Brasky, and all the discussion would revolve around tools, it's kind of funny, but then I guess I'm warped.

By the way, this is all a compliment to Stan, so please take it in good fun.

[Flamone LaChaud]

Bill Brasky is the SNL version of "Waiting for Godot" . . . and before we run on that particular trail:

Both are characters that many people know, many people talk about, many people reminisce over, but do not make an appearance in the scene themselves.

Stan, like many people, was here to enjoy discussing woodworking - particularly from the Japanese philosophy. He was here for a time, had strong opinions (like so many), made some dear friends - stepped on several toes . . . and life goes on. He's still in Japan working, but doesn't come around these virtual parts anymore. And that's all I have to say about that.

[Keith Mathewson]

Nice looking chisels! can you post pics of the backside, hollows etc?

here you are Vicent

[Brian Holcombe]

Nice! Very nice choices.

[Dave Zellers]

Apologies for interrupting the thread. I hope I have chosen the right moment for me to ask a question that has bugged me from the first time I saw pictures of Japanese chisels like these. I can't be the only one wondering about this.

What is the depth of those hollows? Is it so shallow that as the edge is worked, a corresponding new flat is created on the back? Or is the plan that the steel is so hard, responsible sharpening would take decades to use up the few millimeters of flat back that is available?

[Brian Holcombe]

Ura-Dashi is used if the hollow gets away from you.

[Frederick Skelly]

I agree, Stan is a good guy. I learned from him regularly. I always appreciated his insights. I wish I knew what forum he hangs out at these days.

The OP obviously has a taste for good tools and the ability to buy them. I'll bet those chisels will be superb! Post a review after a few uses, please!

Fred

[Pete Taran]

I've had extensive correspondence with Stan over the past few months. I too bought a set of chisels from Stan and have more on order. Candidly, I think most of the jazz about Japanese chisels is hype with the exception of one thing. They are ridiculously hard. The path that took me to Japanese chisels is that I was working with some very hard exotic woods and ordinary western chisels just didn't cut it. When you are chopping into lacewood, after just a few cuts the edge was trashed. That was with my best premium western chisels which are hardened to between 60 and 61 C.

I read about how hard the japanese temper their tools, because they can. The entire chisel is made to allow a super hard cutting edge. The high carbon steel welded to a much softer iron back for one. The second is the ura (dish on the back). It would take a lifetime to flatten a back that was super hard if it was continuous. So, I ordered a set and they live up to the promise. Mine were exactly 65 C which is crazy hard, and sharpened to a 35 degree bevel resulted in a very durable edge. It holds up like a western chisel would in normal use on normal woods.

The back is a pain. On the chisels I have, the high carbon steel is plenty thick, so there is no fear of wearing it away. The ura is there to allow you to more easily lap the back because 90% of the back doesn't make contact with the stone. The pain part comes in because as you sharpen your chisels, the flat part just behind the cutting edge gets smaller, which leads you to relap to get it back. So, unlike a western chisel where the lapping exercise is a one time thing, it is a constant process with a japanese chisel. The good news is that it doesn't take as long.

So, if you don't like to sharpen your chisels in normal use, or have a demanding application like I do, AND don't mind the maintenance required to keep a Japanese chisel cutting, it is an excellent choice. There is a lot more to it, such as setting up your chisel when it arrives, etc. The handles on Japanese chisels are meant to be struck with an iron hammer, and if you use yours this way, then the handle needs maintenance too.

As to Stan, he doesn't lurk on any forum. The exile that resulted from him being discussed as a vendor on this forum has permanently soured him on participating in most online discussions. If you need a set of chisels, or even a few, talking to him direct is your best option. Stan has personal relationships with the Smiths he uses and will get you the very best chisel for the dollar. Plus, from the time I ordered mine until they were in my hands was a total or 3 days, all the way from Japan! The chisels I wanted were in stock. It might take a few weeks to several months to get chisels made that are not in stock.

Stan only operates by word of mouth and by having customers referred to him. He doesn't have a website or any other way to contact him other than email. If you would like to reach Stan, send me a PM, assuming you are a contributing member and have the ability to do that!

A couple pictures of my chisels attached, just after they arrived. The two dimples on the back of the chisel shown is from the diamond penetrator of my Rockwell Tester to measure the hardness. These are regular Oirenomi chisels which are sort of like butt chisels in the western world.

409115409116

[Warren Mickley]

It seems somewhat peculiar to read that our chisels might not be good enough to work hard timbers. Perhaps the premium chisels do no hold up, but 19th century chisels don't seem to have a problem.

We see plenty of historic examples hard timbers in 200 year old work: East Indian rosewood, boxwood, satinwood, ebony, kingwood, etc. Andre Roubo lists many exotic hardwoods, which the Parisian ebenistes were working in mid 18th century, including five kinds of ebony: dur, dur, dur, dur, and tres dur.

[Pete Taran]

Warren,

I've tried all manner of chisel, old and new. I have several hundred. None are harder than 61 C. 65C is a lot harder. The facts don't lie. Trust me, if I could use a Western Chisel I would, but these Japanese Chisels really deliver on the promise.

[Warren Mickley]

Warren,

I've tried all manner of chisel, old and new. I have several hundred. None are harder than 61 C. 65C is a lot harder. The facts don't lie. Trust me, if I could use a Western Chisel I would, but these Japanese Chisels really deliver on the promise.

We must have different technique.

[Pete Taran]

Warren,

Does that technique include chopping into super hard, abrasive wood with the aid of a hammer? I'm not saying western chisels don't work, they just don't hold up. I'd much rather be working wood than constantly fussing with an edge. The Japanese chisels allow for that. That is really a huge difference in hardness (65C vs 61C). Like the difference between a 60C chisel and one that is 56C. To each his own.

[Warren Mickley]

Warren,

Does that technique include chopping into super hard, abrasive wood with the aid of a hammer? I'm not saying western chisels don't work, they just don't hold up. I'd much rather be working wood than constantly fussing with an edge. The Japanese chisels allow for that. That is really a huge difference in hardness (65C vs 61C). Like the difference between a 60C chisel and one that is 56C. To each his own.

I don't use a hammer with chisels. I use 30 ounce dogwood mallet or a 16 ounce persimmon mallet. I do not have trouble with hard woods. I think that if the chisels were as bad as you suggest we would have figured out (sometime in the last 400 years) to temper them less and have harder chisels.

A friend once gave me some English chisels that he hardened and tempered very lightly so they would have high hardness. They hold up fine in use, but do not sharpen as easily. Our chisels are tempered out of preference, not out of ignorance.

[Pete Taran]

Warren,

Good for you. I didn't say they were bad, just not great for my application. You are welcome to use what you like in your shop, including a chisel you hand forged from a meteorite if that trips your switch. I posted my experience. Yours is clearly different.

Regardless, Japanese chisels are VERY hard, and easy to sharpen. Harder than any western chisel, by a wide margin.

[Derek Cohen]

Pete, I think that I know what Warren is referring to when he mentions “technique”. (Warren, it would help if you were more direct).

Technique is not about the type of hammer used - although for Japanese chisels the steel gennou is traditional and I do find the feedback more direct than a wooden mallet ... still, I also use a UHMW head in quieter times.

Thinner sections chopped will have less affect on an edge. Chopping a 1/16” slice will cause the edge to last a lot longer than chopping a 1/4” slice. The unspoken question is what one uses when chopping and reporting edge longevity. It is possible to make a good chisel last a brief time, and a lesser chisel last longer.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pete Taran]

Derek,

I appreciate the perspective. In my application, the cuts are all identical. Namely, to clean out the corner resulting from a 1/4" end mill. Both are stop cuts into end grain, and the amount of wood removed is identical in every case. See the attached picture to get an idea of what I'm talking about. Western chisels do work, but after three or four operations, the edge is dull and ragged. I'm talking Record mortise chisels (vintage), Sorby Chisels (modern, two different lots), Witherby cabinet chisels, Charles Buck chisels, and some random single chisels I had to include Greenlee and Stanley. All performed about the same.

However, the Japanese chisel I got from Stan easily lasts 5 times as long. They are simply fantastic. I even thought about making a chisel out of 0-1 and tempering it to be nearly as hard, but why fool around when you can buy off the shelf and be working?

409138

[Warren Mickley]

I lost picture privileges this evening. It sounds like something you ought to be able to do fifty or a hundred of.

[Derek Cohen]

Pete, I agree with the longevity of (probably most if not all) Japanese chisels over (certainly modern) Western blades. I wrote the article on this: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html

I am not sure if Warren is just trying (again) to make a case for vintage steel. We have two topics here: the construction of chisels, and their use.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Todd Zucker]

Long live Stan. I am not sure I have seen a lively sharpening thread in a while.

[Stewie Simpson]

Lets not forget what Stan Covington was trying to gain from being a member of this forum site.

[Vincent Tai]

here you are Vicent

Thanks Keith, very nice.

[Jim Koepke]

Ura-Dashi is used if the hollow gets away from you.

To many people, Ura-Dashi is into the unknown.

jtk

[Edwin Santos]

Pete,
Congratulations on your new chisels!

But you've left us hanging on the big question. Have you committed sacrilege by hollow grinding them, and if so, have there been any deleterious effects?

Another question - your review has revolved mostly around edge retention. There are some that speak to the harder Japanese steel taking a sharper edge. Undoubtedly a more subjective question than measuring hardness, but do you have any observations?

Many thanks,
Edwin

[Jim Matthews]

They are ridiculously hard. The path that took me to Japanese chisels is that I was working with some very hard exotic woods and ordinary western chisels just didn't cut it. When you are chopping into lacewood, after just a few cuts the edge was trashed.

I've wondered about this.

Plane makers like HNTG work in similar exotic species and remove most rectilinear slots, mortices and grooves.

With curved work (such as saw handles) is there a preferred way to remove bulk waste, without chisels?

Water jet cutting comes to mind.

[Jim Matthews]

Bringing myself to hit an expensive blade with a hammer was daunting. It explains Toshio Odate recounting his apprenticeship when he was relieved of a valuable plane , unsuitable for starting out... it takes time to develop a feel for smacking steel.

[Stewie Simpson]

An interesting insight on maintaining Japanese Chisels;

https://knowledge.axminster.co.uk/treating-the-back-of-a-japanese-chisel/

[brian zawatsky]

Lets not forget what Stan Covington was trying to gain from being a member of this forum site.

Stewie your assumption that Stan was only here to hawk tools blithely disregards his constant willingness to answer questions and share years of accumulated knowledge and experience in an area which - due to the language barrier for all of us non Japanese speakers - is notoriously difficult to ascertain regularly.

It's also pretty low to level accusations at one whom isn't present to defend himself, IMO.

[Brian Holcombe]

Ura-Dashi is the best way to preserve the back hollow, the point of the hollow is to allow the cutting edge to get extremely sharp by taking away all of the material that is anything other than about 1/16" of steel right at the cutting edge. It allows contact right up the edge so you can really knock out the burr effectively. If one were to surface the chisel backs until there is 1/2" of flat steel there the point of the hollow is greatly diminished.

Stan need not take any grief for what he has been doing, he does this for no other reason that to put buyers in touch with blacksmiths. He's recouping his costs in doing so and helping to preserve an art form. An Art forms which needs patrons to keep it going. Some smiths who are really exceptional tend to be really lousy at selling themselves.

[Pete Taran]

Edwin,

You know it! The chisels came ground with a 27.5 degree bevel angle. I started experimenting with different angles and for the work I'm doing found that 35 degrees was the right one. I didn't completely grind the entire bevel, just an 1/8" or so as the more you grind when going from shallow angle to steep the more it decreases the land on the back and the more you need to lap the back. I know this too is sacrilege, but I only care about results, not all the rest of the tradition jazz. Over time I will get to a complete bevel angle.

As to sharpness, I don't notice any difference, but the results don't lie. Having said that, I sharpen all my chisels on the tormek and then to the strop. I do actually use two tormeks, one with the 220 grit wheel and one with the 6000 grit waterstone, so I wouldn't expect any big differences in how sharp because they get sharpened the same way. The only issue for me is how long it stays that way.


Pete,
Congratulations on your new chisels!

But you've left us hanging on the big question. Have you committed sacrilege by hollow grinding them, and if so, have there been any deleterious effects?

Another question - your review has revolved mostly around edge retention. There are some that speak to the harder Japanese steel taking a sharper edge. Undoubtedly a more subjective question than measuring hardness, but do you have any observations?

Many thanks,
Edwin

[Jim Koepke]

Ura-Dashi is the best way to preserve the back hollow, the point of the hollow is to allow the cutting edge to get extremely sharp by taking away all of the material that is anything other than about 1/16" of steel right at the cutting edge.

Surely this makes it very clear to someone who knows nothing about Japanese or Japanese chisels.

Even with having read some posts about tools from Japan, it isn't clear to me if this consists of beating the bevel with a hammer or extensive grinding of the back.

To me, it really doesn't matter. To someone visiting SMC for the first time it may be the understanding the language needed to use Japanese chisels is a reason to stick with western tools.

jtk

[Pete Taran]

Jim,

I'm no expert with beating chisels with hammers, but from what I've read, this is reserved for plane blades and wide chisels. Honestly, I have no immersion in Japanese chisel maintenance other than what I've read here and guidance from Stan (and that is only a couple weeks worth), but it's not that complicated. Further, the dish on the back (Ura) is pretty deep, at least on mine. It's like 1/16" so doesn't seem plausible that you will ever remove all of it. It is pretty amazing that even though very little steel contacts the lapping medium, it still takes a lot of effort to abrade it away. That steel is really hard!

Pete

[Brian Holcombe]

Pete, I’ve used Ura-Dashi on everything from 1/4” chisels to 70mm plane blades (I don’t own anything wider). I’ve tapped out about 45 blades and maintain them routinely.

Jim, certainly not everything need be plainly simple to the unindoctrinated, but that is why forums and classes exist. Surely you did not pick up a guitar and start playing, you needed to learn a thing or two first.

[Dave Zellers]

Pete, I’ve used Ura-Dashi on everything from 1/4” chisels to 70mm plane blades (I don’t own anything wider). I’ve tapped out about 45 blades and maintain them routinely.

Jim, certainly not everything need be plainly simple to the unindoctrinated, but that is why forums and classes exist. Surely you did not pick up a guitar and start playing, you needed to learn a thing or two first.

Yes and with simple terminology, there is the internet.

When you answered my question re the hollow with Ura-Dashi, I looked it up and was instantly reminded of a thread from perhaps a year ago where you covered that process including pictures.

[Jim Koepke]

Surely you did not pick up a guitar and start playing, you needed to learn a thing or two first.

Funny you should mention that. My years of guitar playing were a lot of fun even with my never learning to read music.

jtk

[James Waldron]

[snip]

Stan need not take any grief for what he has been doing, he does this for no other reason that to put buyers in touch with blacksmiths. He's recouping his costs in doing so and helping to preserve an art form. An Art forms which needs patrons to keep it going. Some smiths who are really exceptional tend to be really lousy at selling themselves.

It is worth mention that Stan has never made his living selling tools. He is a major executive in a very major international construction company and supports Japanese blacksmiths and their wares out of respect and regard for their worth. I don't know if he marks up prices more than his expenses or not, and I don't care; as most of his "customers" have attested, his prices have been very fair and favorable compared to other sources of Japanese tools. And as most of his "customers" have attested, the quality of the tools he seeks out and furnishes are outstanding, at least as good as those available from other sources of Japanese tools.

His contributions to a wide variety of threads on SMC also demonstrate a useful and valuable contribution to the content on the site.

If Stewie has some information to impart about Stan, I wish he would present it less opaquely. I find castigation by innuendo rather distasteful. [I must admit, however, that my view of Stewie's post as edited may be more a comment for the unhappy decision of management to leave behind a highly ambiguous post devoid of substance.]

[Stewie Simpson]

It is worth mention that Stan has never made his living selling tools. He is a major executive in a very major international construction company and supports Japanese blacksmiths and their wares out of respect and regard for their worth. I don't know if he marks up prices more than his expenses or not, and I don't care; as most of his "customers" have attested, his prices have been very fair and favorable compared to other sources of Japanese tools. And as most of his "customers" have attested, the quality of the tools he seeks out and furnishes are outstanding, at least as good as those available from other sources of Japanese tools.

His contributions to a wide variety of threads on SMC also demonstrate a useful and valuable contribution to the content on the site.

If Stewie has some information to impart about Stan, I wish he would present it less opaquely. I find castigation by innuendo rather distasteful. [I must admit, however, that my view of Stewie's post as edited may be more a comment for the unhappy decision of management to leave behind a highly ambiguous post devoid of substance.]

James; I can tell you exactly why my original post was edited by a moderator. I sent him a pm. The reply received was, it was viewed as supplying advertising to Stan. So go figure.

regards;...........

[Dave Zellers]

James; I can tell you exactly why my original post was edited by a moderator. I sent him a pm. The reply received was, It was viewed as supplying advertising to Stan. So go figure.

regards;...........


That IS interesting. So as is so often the case, both aspects can be true. Stan is a fine upstanding guy, but SMC does not want him using their forum for business. Even if there is little or no profit being made. If they were to look the other way, it would balloon up by others wanting to similar things and become a problem.

[Stewie Simpson]

But here's the real kicker, that wasn't deemed as advertising for Stan;


As to Stan, he doesn't lurk on any forum. The exile that resulted from him being discussed as a vendor on this forum has permanently soured him on participating in most online discussions. If you need a set of chisels, or even a few, talking to him direct is your best option. Stan has personal relationships with the Smiths he uses and will get you the very best chisel for the dollar. Plus, from the time I ordered mine until they were in my hands was a total or 3 days, all the way from Japan! The chisels I wanted were in stock. It might take a few weeks to several months to get chisels made that are not in stock.

Stan only operates by word of mouth and by having customers referred to him. He doesn't have a website or any other way to contact him other than email. If you would like to reach Stan, send me a PM, assuming you are a contributing member and have the ability to do that!

[Jen Joy]

Those of you setting up Japanese chisels might find this page helpful: https://covingtonsons.home.blog/2019/05/03/setting-up-japanese-chisels/

[Dave Zellers]

But here's the real kicker, that wasn't deemed as advertising for Stan;



Yes. Excellent point.

[Patrick McCarthy]

JJ, thank you immensely!!!!!!

[Derek Cohen]

Those of you setting up Japanese chisels might find this page helpful: https://covingtonsons.home.blog/2019/05/03/setting-up-japanese-chisels/

Thank you for that link, Jen. I had Stan's email address and then lost it with a computer change. I really miss Stan not being around. He was a good friend and great source of informed knowledge on this forum.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

Thank you for that link, Jen. I had Stan's email address and then lost it with a computer change. I really miss Stan not being around. He was a good friend and great source of informed knowledge on this forum.

Regards from Perth

Derek

+1 Derek. I always enjoyed Stan's posts.

[Jim Koepke]

+1 Derek. I always enjoyed Stan's posts.

+2 on enjoying Stan's posts.

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

Fred & Jim; if you can stomach it, you might want to view the comment section of Stan's blog and see what he wrote about SMC.

Stewie;

[Pete Taran]

Stewart,

Slow morning down under? If I were Stan, and considering how much he gave here and how he was treated, I'd judge those comments as tame. A very noble attempt to throw some shade Stan's way, but he doesn't deserve it. Now everyone go and check out Stan's blog, and while you are there inquire about buying some chisels.


Fred & Jim; if you can stomach it, you might want to view the comment section of Stan's blog and see what he wrote about SMC.

Stewie;

[Frederick Skelly]

Fred & Jim; if you can stomach it, you might want to view the comment section of Stan's blog and see what he wrote about SMC.

Stewie;

Hi Stewie.
Listen, I read Stan's blog. Contrary to your innuendo he wasn't ugly. So why don't you ease up a bit? There's no value in stirring this pot. We all miss Stan and I bet a lot of us start following his blog.

Why don't you show us your latest tool build or restoration, instead? I'm sure that'll be good stuff. It always is!
Fred

[Stewie Simpson]

Pete; if your so seriously unhappy about the way Stan was treated on this forum site, why not plead your case with administrator and moderators of this forum site. !!!

Stewie;

[Frederick Skelly]

Pete; if your so seriously unhappy about the way Stan was treated on this forum site, why not plead your case with administrator and moderators of this forum site. !!!

Stewie;

Come on Stew, stop stirring man...

[Patrick Walsh]

I miss his contributions also.

This place has been and is lacking the substance and base of knowledge “at least by people whom share” that once made its pretty great. And even then it was a small handful of people whom took the time to really get into it. But you know those few people made this place..

Sorry if that upsets some but it’s how I feel.

[Todd Zucker]

Jen Joy, thank you.


Stan, for me, has a perspective backed by real experience, and years of it, all day, everyday. Mortise, tenon, mortise, tenon. Etc. Someone who knows what he is talking about.


We are in a transitional age. Not just tools but information about tools. You don’t know who is speaking from experience. Some might swear by LN, some by LV, some by Stanley, some by others. Or Kitotada.


Stan shares experience and wisdom in excruciating detail. It helps us learn, even if we use Western chisels.


He had differences with SMC. That is unfortunate. Like mom and dad getting divorced, and we lose one.


On the internet, you might see a fog that gradually dissipates into a focus with a select few that seem to have a perspective that is based on experience, wisdom, trial and error. It takes a long time to understand who is posting.


I wish Stan were still posting on SMC, but it isn’t an either/or proposition. He has a perspective. More importantly, he shares a lot of knowledge. Others on this site do as well.


Stan helps arrange sales of chisels. The most important thing he taught me was that I should get better at using saws, so that I don’t need to use chisels as much. A very valuable lesson. That isn’t a salesman. That is a mentor.










https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/8acb0de1-c076-4328-9343-987c6d6ac274

[Patrick McCarthy]

Todd, very well stated.

[Derek Cohen]

Nicely said Todd. And I agree with your comments, too, Fred.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

So.....how does the new chisels preform?

[michael langman]

[QUOTE=brian zawatsky;2923695]Stewie your assumption that Stan was only here to hawk tools blithely disregards his constant willingness to answer questions and share years of accumulated knowledge and experience in an area which - due to the language barrier for all of us non Japanese speakers - is notoriously difficult to ascertain regularly.

It's also pretty low to level accusations at one whom isn't present to defend himself, IMO.[


I could not have said it better. Stan was not the type of person to seek such type of self gratification.

[Mike Manning]

Several folks have mentioned this Stan person has a blog. Can anyone provide search details so that I can locate it? Thanks.

[Pete Taran]

see post 53, this thread

[Mike Manning]

see post 53, this thread

Thanks Pete for pointing out the obvious! :-)

[Edwin Santos]

We should start a poll - who gets discussed here (in absentia) the most?

Paul Sellers, Chris Schwarz, or Stan the man?

:confused:

[Keith Mathewson]

So.....how does the new chisels preform?

Of the the bench chisels i’ve had time to use they preform very well. I currently own or have owned some of just about every chisel widely available and their ability to take and hold an edge is better than those imo. Some western chisels will take a comparable edge but don’t hold as long. I have a set of mass produced Japanese chisels, a few work well and some chip if you look at them wrong. Of the few I’ve worked with so far they appear to be consistent.

The mortise chisels I need to spend more time using before forming an opinion. I recently made three entry doors and reverted to using the Ray Isles mortise chisels. This may be due to not having the right size gennou or just personal preference.

[Pete Taran]

Keith,

Clearly it is your technique, as I was recently instructed. Please try harder. :D



Of the the bench chisels i’ve had time to use they preform very well. I currently own or have owned some of just about every chisel widely available and their ability to take and hold an edge is better than those imo.

[Stewie Simpson]

We should start a poll - who gets discussed here (in absentia) the most?

Paul Sellers, Chris Schwarz, or Stan the man?

:confused:

Edwin; ease up there, your getting way to close to the truth.

Stewie;

[Derek Cohen]

Edwin; ease up there, your getting way to close to the truth.

Stewie;

Stewie, exactly 2 out of your last 20 posts to this forum have been about woodworking. 18 (90%) have been to stir up someone. This is not helpful.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rhys Hurcombe]

Another +1 for the quality of c&s tools. My mortise chisels are very well appreciated. Stan was greatly helpful both pre and post purchase with any questions I had.

[Jim Koepke]

Just read Stan's blog. Well not all of the post on setting up Japanese chisels.

There were two mentions of SMC found. Mostly his SMC comments are about how he is glad to be free of the trolls & orcs hiding in the shadows of on-line forums who only come out for an opportunity to demean others.

My first thought was to include a quote in this post as a direct response to a comment. Then it occurred to me to not lend derogatory remarks any oxygen.

Now his blog has ben bookmarked. Hopefully he finds the time to share hight quality information as he did when posting here.

Some of the information Stan posted has been put in to practice in my own work. It is having a positive effect on my work and abilities.

It is almost tempting me into purchasing some of his chisels, ALMOST.

jtk

[Keith Mathewson]

Just read Stan's blog.

My first thought was to include a quote in this post as a direct response to a comment. Then it occurred to me to not lend derogatory remarks any oxygen.


It is almost tempting me into purchasing some of his chisels, ALMOST.

jtk

+1. On forums I tend to look for what is useful, ignore the noise and not respond people just looking to stir the pot.

If you’re ever in Seattle feel free to stop by and try Them out.

[Jim Koepke]

+1. On forums I tend to look for what is useful, ignore the noise and not respond people just looking to stir the pot.

If you’re ever in Seattle feel free to stop by and try Them out.

Thanks Keith, according to the sign on I-5 it is only about 130 miles. It is always kind of neat coming around that bend on I-5 and all of a sudden there be Seattle.

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

Just read Stan's blog. Well not all of the post on setting up Japanese chisels.

There were two mentions of SMC found. Mostly his SMC comments are about how he is glad to be free of the trolls & orcs hiding in the shadows of on-line forums who only come out for an opportunity to demean others.

*My first thought was to include a quote in this post as a direct response to a comment. Then it occurred to me to not lend derogatory remarks any oxygen.

Now his blog has ben bookmarked. Hopefully he finds the time to share hight quality information as he did when posting here.

Some of the information Stan posted has been put in to practice in my own work. It is having a positive effect on my work and abilities.

It is almost tempting me into purchasing some of his chisels, ALMOST.

jtk

jtk; I would suggest you read that comment section again.


Hi Vincent, thanks for kind words.

No, I don’t miss SMC: too much like Mordor.

But I do miss the stimulating conversation with people like you. Perhaps we can have similar discussions here among humans that know how to read, and without all the snarling, biting and defecating from the resident trolls and orcs.



ps; If your wondering what forced me into responding to your post, you'll find that reason within the 3rd line of your post.

regards Stewie;

[Vincent Tai]

jtk; I would suggest you read that comment section again.

Stewie; perhaps Moria would've been more apt a description. Certainly some mithril; good info to be found here - along with plenty of... Orc-ish-ness.

I'm far too lazy to go back and click around to re read the whole thread but as I remember it you insinuated that Stan's being on this forum was to sell his tools. I don't think he had the time or diabolical planning skills to spend years posting and starting threads on a wide array of topics for years for the purpose of selling chisels half a decade later but that's just me.

You orginally posted a quote from a tool retailer (I assume Jindaiko) as if it's suppose to mean something. They want to tell their customer on their own site to go to Stan if they're overseas; cool. Nice to know. As far as I know Jindaiko hasn't ever posted by themselves at SMC. Jessica has mentioned or recommended a few times. A bizarre thing to do, grab a quote from a business and just toss it in but okay.

The quote gets removed for "advertisement for Stan", well hmm. Considering that was the original purpose of the retailer on their original own site (separate from SMC) that makes sense.

And then the rest I forget much about except for the telling people to go read Stan's blog's comments if they could stomach it or something. Cool. I think they stomached it quite well. Maybe found it tasty based on their comments.

Is there a point to all this? I don't think people's minds are going to change; the many many posts of minds not changing is what leads me to that conclusion.

Regards,

Vincent

[Stewie Simpson]

Vince; the likely crux of the matter is that there are certain members of this forum site that still believe Stan Covington was unfairly targeted by the administrator of this forum site. I for 1 don't agree with that assertion, but rather than waste your valuable time trying to explain why the administrator may have felt compelled to intervene, I will just refer you to the post by Dave Zellers.

regards Stewie;


That IS interesting. So as is so often the case, both aspects can be true. Stan is a fine upstanding guy, but SMC does not want him using their forum for business. Even if there is little or no profit being made. If they were to look the other way, it would balloon up by others wanting to similar things and become a problem.

[Doug Dawson]

Vince; the likely crux of the matter is that there are certain members of this forum site that still believe Stan Covington was unfairly targeted by the administrator of this forum site. I for 1 don't agree with that assertion, but rather than waste your valuable time trying to explain why the administrator may have felt compelled to intervene, I will just refer you to the post by Dave Zellers.


The Original Sin was that Stan put his email address in one of his posts. This was perceived by the administrata as advertising without a paid permit. Posts were nullified. Stan took offense and left. That is all.

[Jeff Bartley]

Stewie,

The issue here that really vexes me is that this post was about a set of chisels that Pete Taran bought and liked. It just so happened that he purchased them from Stan.

You have made the thread into a rant about Stan. Please let it go. It adds nothing to the conversation about chisels.

For the record, I emailed with Stan awhile back after recognizing his understanding of the Japanese tool market with a question about the origin of a set of chisels I had purchased. He graciously told me who the maker was and provided an idea of their general quality.

But at no point did he try to sell me anything! He didn't even mention in the email that he sold tools.

Now, please can we talk more about chisels?

[Stewie Simpson]

Jeff; I wont be adding any further comment to this thread.

regards;;;;;;;;;;;;

[Jeff Bartley]

Jeff; I wont be adding any further comment to this thread.

regards;;;;;;;;;;;;

Stewie, my intent was only for you to stop harping on Stan, not for you to leave the discussion entirely.

[Jim Koepke]

jtk; I would suggest you read that comment section again.



ps; If your wondering what forced me into responding to your post, you'll find that reason within the 3rd line of your post.

regards Stewie;

Yep, the comment you quoted…


Hi Vincent, thanks for kind words.

No, I don’t miss SMC: too much like Mordor.

But I do miss the stimulating conversation with people like you. Perhaps we can have similar discussions here among humans that know how to read, and without all the snarling, biting and defecating from the resident trolls and orcs.

…is one of the two replies to comments which was referred to in my post.

If you feel your comments about Stan were not of a negative, derogatory nature, then maybe they were misunderstood by me and others.

jtk

[brian zawatsky]

Gentlemen, please refrain from feeding the troll(s). If they learn there is food here they will continue to come back for more. That is all.

[Mike Allen1010]

Stewie your assumption that Stan was only here to hawk tools blithely disregards his constant willingness to answer questions and share years of accumulated knowledge and experience in an area which - due to the language barrier for all of us non Japanese speakers - is notoriously difficult to ascertain regularly.

It's also pretty low to level accusations at one whom isn't present to defend himself, IMO.

+1 No disrespect to anyone but I agree w/ others who said Stan brought unique insight into Japanese tools as someone living in Japan and, more importantly, making a living with same hand tools.

I always valued Stans contributions to forum and am disappointed he's gone. Our community is dimensioned by his absence. Sadly, I don't understand why he's no longer here. Ours is a small, largely self sustaining community. I don't think anyone is getting rich selling WWing tools, however I clearly don't understand economics of SMC/tool sellers. just disappointed someone I see as valuable contributor to our community has been ostracized for reason I don't understand .

[Patrick Walsh]

I reluctantly add this thought. If I did not keep having it over and over again I wouldn’t bother.

It’s my opinion and only my opinion that the talented crafts people that drew me to this forum have all largely stopped posting. I can’t say and won’t speculate as to why as there could be many reasons.

Some of these people I will admit I often wondered how much they shared be it build threads or advice to drum up business or just because they wanted to be helpful and or share.

Either way I see it this way. Who cares if someone’s sharing is a attempt to drum up business for themself. Good content is good content and without good high quality content this place will become less and less valuable and people will just go away. Honestly I have been feeling like that is the case for the better part of a year or more now.

I can see both sides of this. Well you know that’s not all true but it kinda is. What I don’t understand is how limiting what one is sharing if it is being limited because it’s being seen as the person is trying to drum up business matters a darn thing. Everything in life is a give and take. If I have learnt anything about life and people in my short 41 years it’s that humans are largely self motivated self seeking and take care of number one first. Very few of us do anything without at least the intent of what’s in it for me.

So I say let’s not let this place go down the pooper. I have learnt quite a bit here over the years, I’d like to continue to learn and I’d like to see others at c]various stages of the learning game have quality content to learn from.

[Dave Zellers]

Either way I see it this way. Who cares if someone’s sharing is a attempt to drum up business for themself.

No need to go any farther than this. SMC isn't Facebook. Period.

I think your post is good. But if SMC were to allow what you would allow, it would turn into a runaway train crazy fast. What you refer to as 'sharing' would morph into "BUSINESS" at light speed.

Keith is on the right track and IMO, needs to be encouraged to follow on that track.

There will absolutely be growing pains as we all adjust to the new realities of ad blockers and the necessities of subscription web sites. We are all feeling our way through the forest in the dark here.

CONTRIBUTE PEOPLE!

[Derek Cohen]

Mike and Patrick, thank you both for writing essentially what I would have done.

I have visited a goodly number of woodworking fori over the years. There are probably just three that I consider to be capable of producing thought-provoking posts. SMC is one of them. To be so, it is due to the quality of the membership. These qualities centre on experience and creativity, along with a willingness to share. The situation is analogous to "you can have it fast, good or cheap. Pick any two". We strive to make all three are available in one thread. There are many here who do.

I have seen excellent forums losing the "leading" posters, and then the quality of the forum declines until the posts are predominantly about show-and-tell. A forum may continue, but the life is sapped from it, and slowly it fades away as standard remain low. It is absolutely imperative that experienced posters are encouraged. The only moderation I consider important is for personal attacks. Keith - please take note here! By-and-large, good fori are self-moderating. We are not fools when we read self-serving posts, those prompted by jealousy, or posters with just plain oppositional or pig-headed attitudes. Them we can just ignore.


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dave Zellers]

Keith - please take note here! By-and-large, good fori are self-moderating. We are not fools when we read self-serving posts, those prompted by jealousy, or posters with just plain oppositional or pig-headed attitudes. Them we can just ignore.

You are looking at this situation from a personal viewpoint. YOU, and others, will ignore them, but if allowed, they will grow. And then SMC takes on a very different personality. And that is EXACTLY what Keith is trying so hard to prevent, IMO.

[Stewie Simpson]

Mike and Patrick, thank you both for writing essentially what I would have done.

I have visited a goodly number of woodworking fori over the years. There are probably just three that I consider to be capable of producing thought-provoking posts. SMC is one of them. To be so, it is due to the quality of the membership. These qualities centre on experience and creativity, along with a willingness to share. The situation is analogous to "you can have it fast, good or cheap. Pick any two". We strive to make all three are available in one thread. There are many here who do.

I have seen excellent forums losing the "leading" posters, and then the quality of the forum declines until the posts are predominantly about show-and-tell. A forum may continue, but the life is sapped from it, and slowly it fades away as standard remain low. It is absolutely imperative that experienced posters are encouraged. The only moderation I consider important is for personal attacks. Keith - please take note here! By-and-large, good fori are self-moderating. We are not fools when we read self-serving posts, those prompted by jealousy, or posters with just plain oppositional or pig-headed attitudes. Them we can just ignore.


Regards from Perth

Derek

This forum site is currently struggling to survive financially due to a lack of both Corporate and membership sponsorship. That reality is not being helped by those members who still feel its their right to treat this site as a free for all advertising conduit.

regards;.............

[Frederick Skelly]

Mike, Patrick, Dave, Derek and Stewie all have valid points. My thoughts on those and others.....
* Most of us understand that Keith's not "going private" because he wants to. He's fighting to keep the site alive - literally keep the lights on. To me, this is this is like a medical triage situation - we must save the site first, and handle the side effects of what we did to save it afterwards.

* Membership loss is one side effect. Lack of new blood is definitely going to be another. That is the one that worries me the most - far more than paying a subscription fee. I found this place via google and got hooked. And there will also be other side effects we havent thought of yet.

* Keith's looked at the options he feels are credible and going Subscriber-only is the best fit in his view as Proprietor. By "credible", I mean the option is affordable to him and within what he is willing to do.

* The depth and breadth of knowledge here keeps me coming back. I consider myself a pretty decent hobbyist woodworker. Many of you are better. You constantly awe me.

* I strongly favor the serious efforts made by the Mods to "keep things friendly" here. If I ask a dumb question, I don't want a rash of crap about it. And yes, I think we can and should be more self regulating. Don't just ignore it. If you see someone getting out of hand, call them on it. (It has happened to me and I immediately got the message.) Or just use the "report" to moderator button.

* I too have noticed a change as we lost "Leading Posters". I don't know if that is a cyclical thing or if it indicates a real, long-term negative trend. We've lost David Weaver, Phil Thien, George Wilson, Stan Covington, Steve Voight and others. Some faded away and some left because of TOS or moderation issues. They all added greatly to this place.

* I agree we need to be careful of turning this into a facebook or craigslist. I agree that our TOS have occasionally driven away people who's posts I valued, occasionally for reasons I didn't agree with. But remember that Keith has always said the TOS were written by the members. So I'm guessing we could vote to change or loosen them sometime. But let's save the site first.

[Flamone LaChaud]

For those who are still following this thread, and are contributors . . . I invite you to go into The Lumberyard part of the forum and start going back in history looking at threads. When I did that yesterday (or the day before, I forget), I noticed about every year there was a wake-up call kind of post asking the contributors (and to a degree the moderators) to play nice, debate points of view without making personal attacks, and to stop those who like to dogpile just for the sake of beating the dead horse. I also remember more than a couple of posts reminding people to be more welcoming of new people, greet and show encouragement to even ugly dovetail posts, cutting board posts, my first box posts, etc...

For those who aren't contributors yet but are members (like I was for years) . . . this isn't the first time strong personalities clashing has had an impact on membership. But with the impending move to contributor/subscriber based access . . . not playing nice might have a larger impact than ever before. Just a thought.

[Tony Zona]

. . . I agree that our TOS have occasionally driven away people who's posts I valued, occasionally for reasons I didn't agree with. . . .


Can somebody tell me what it is in the Terms of Service that so many seem to be greatly perturbed with?

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Can somebody tell me what it is in the Terms of Service that so many seem to be greatly perturbed with?

I have seen two things over the years.

If you want to advertise you have to pay to do that. Some of Stan’s posts (and some posts by other members) looked like thinly disguised advertisements of his willingness to sell chisels from hard to find Japanese blacksmiths (apparently not at any significant profit). Everybody liked him, he wasn’t making any money off it, and he thought that rule should not apply to what he was doing. Management thought it was the camel’s nose under the tent or whatever, and was not willing to look the other way. There was a big blow up and he left. Now he has his own blog/website/tool store, and seems to be happy, but people here would rather complain about it then go over to his website and talk to him there. My impression anyway.

The second is the rule against insulting people or making personal attacks or whatever. We get a lot of people who rightly or wrongly view themselves as experts at something. They generally want to be helpful, but there is sometimes friction. The first ten times they see the same question, they manage to respond to it and explain it with a helpful grandfatherly tone, and everybody is happy. As time goes on I guess explaining the same thing to a new batch of new people who want to make the exact same mistakes the last guy wanted to make starts to get harder.

About the 20th time, they will try to help a new guy (usually an engineering degree is involved on one side or the other) and the new guy will want to argue with the expert that they are wrong because the new guy watched some video posted by a hack/snake oil salesman on youtube. At that point the expert gets mad and says something ill considered about either the new guy, or the hack, or somebody’s mother, and that violates the rule against personal attacks. The offending remarks then get deleted or edited by the moderators, the expert gets mad that the management is allowing new people to be mislead by snake oil salesmen, etc. and we have a big blow up.

[Tony Zona]

Thanks, Nicholas. That seems reasonable. I guess terms of service are there for a reason. And it sounds like they aid in sorting out these vagaries.

If I’m correct, isn’t that the way it’s on most all forums?

[Jim Koepke]

Some of Stan’s posts (and some posts by other members) looked like thinly disguised advertisements of his willingness to sell chisels from hard to find Japanese blacksmiths (apparently not at any significant profit).

Maybe since it wasn't my intent to purchase Japanese chisels this soft persuasion never occurred to me.

Surely then at times my own actions have violated the Terms of Service. Occasionally when someone makes an inquiry about where to obtain a part, if there is a spare in my accumulation of parts, arrangements may be made to send it to them.

Mostly my only request was for postage. Now my financial situation can afford to pay postage so even that isn't requested.

When it comes to selling something, it is either listed in the Classifieds here or on ebay. One caveat on that, my better items will be listed here first. If it is something that isn't up to my fully liking the item, it is listed on ebay. So if something of mine is on ebay, ask me before you bid.

jtk

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Surely then at times my own actions have violated the Terms of Service. Occasionally when someone makes an inquiry about where to obtain a part, if there is a spare in my accumulation of parts, arrangements may be made to send it to them.


I don’t think sending something to somebody for postage is a violation (you aren’t selling anything). But my opinion really doesn’t matter. I was just trying to answer the question about why people seem to get mad and leave.

Tony, I am not on a lot of forums. But the couple I have looked at over the years all have some kind of rules or they turn into pretty rough places. Keith wants kids to be able to come here, so it is more moderated perhaps than some.

[James Pallas]

I remember the posts thru my eyes. We forget that another poster was involved and pushed for an answer. I don't believe that Stan intentionally did anything for personal gain. It reminds me of two friends years ago. One got a new car his friend egged him on to see how fast the car was. The driver got the ticket that cost him dearly for years, assigned risk insurance, reckless driving ticket and all that. The one doing the urging paid no penalty. They were never friends after that. It's too bad sometimes that things happen but they do. Stan got upset about it and made his decision, his choice. He could have accepted the admonishment and just gone on, again his choice. I sometimes get unhappy about things that are said on this forum and think about giving it up. I haven't done so, my choice. There is always some penalty for breaking rules. Because you were coerced to do it usually doesn't work out as an excuse. I have to stick with the forum administrators on this one.
Jim

[steven c newman]

Soooo, is this post about the Chisels the OP bought? OR, should this be moved to the Off Topic threads, before someone closes this down?

maybe show the new chisels in action?

[Gary Cunningham]

Mike and Patrick, thank you both for writing essentially what I would have done.

I have visited a goodly number of woodworking fori over the years. There are probably just three that I consider to be capable of producing thought-provoking posts. SMC is one of them. To be so, it is due to the quality of the membership. These qualities centre on experience and creativity, along with a willingness to share. The situation is analogous to "you can have it fast, good or cheap. Pick any two". We strive to make all three are available in one thread. There are many here who do.

I have seen excellent forums losing the "leading" posters, and then the quality of the forum declines until the posts are predominantly about show-and-tell. A forum may continue, but the life is sapped from it, and slowly it fades away as standard remain low. It is absolutely imperative that experienced posters are encouraged. The only moderation I consider important is for personal attacks. Keith - please take note here! By-and-large, good fori are self-moderating. We are not fools when we read self-serving posts, those prompted by jealousy, or posters with just plain oppositional or pig-headed attitudes. Them we can just ignore.


Regards from Perth

Derek


Very well said. I have seen other types of forums fade away for the same reason. Knowledgeable posters get tired of being picked at by ‘certain types’. Eventually the forum is a shadow of its former self.

[Matt Lau]

It's my first time on this forum in a long while....partly because I got busy.

The other part is because I don't find as much interesting content as back when Stan, George, David, etc were here.
They were opinionated, passionate, and experienced...with their own quirky sense of humor and pride.

And in terms of Stan--his goal was to allow talented blacksmiths to be able to eat.
There are blacksmiths of high skill, who do not have the marketing savvy like Tsunesaburo...but make a superior product.
He'd commission a few tools (to help pay their bills), and resell to cover his costs as a hobby.

In some cases, the smith was physically injured or sick (one had cancer, so the tool took 3 years to be delivered).

As for his real job--he's a high level project engineer for multiple multinationals working in Japan.
The tool thing is just a hobby/passion project for him, and not an income stream.

I could rant more, but I won't.
Just glad that others didn't forget about Stan.