Some Felder news

[Derek Cohen]

I visited my local Felder outlet today. I had emailed them a few days ago to enquire whether I could purchase a second blade winder (more in a little while). Con, one of the owners, emailed back to say he would give me one, and then opened the warehouse specially for me Saturday morning (he lives nearby). I love these guys!

Con mentioned a couple of new products, three of which were interesting enough to mention here.

The first is that Felder have their own version of the Sawstop technology, and apparently it is a whole new generation of electronics. It sounds a little similar to the Bosch Reaxx in that the blade drops down, and is not damaged. Just reset. Unfortunately, it is only going to be available at first on the top-of-the-line sliders. I guess we will eventually see it filtering down the lines.

The second item, and one that is of interest to me, is an insert for the T-slot that will effectively extend the length of the slider. It is made of plastic or similar to slide easily. I recall seeing jigs along these lines, but this one will be made specially for the Hammer/Felder models.

The third item was that an aluminium handle is available for the blade angle adjuster with a built in digital protractor (similar to the digital gauge on the thicknesser/planee).

The saw blade winder? Well, owners if the K3 will understand this. The K3 comes with a single winder, which gets swapped between the height and angle settings. K3 owners will likely also identify with my irritation each time one goes to adjust the blade height, as the handle has loosened and needs to be pushed deeper onto the spindle before it can be used. And then it needs to be swapped over to the angle side when the blade is to be tilted. Enough ... I wanted a second winder.

I got it :)

https://i.postimg.cc/ZRCnSk5h/Handles.jpg

Each handle is attached now with a set screw (drilled and tapped in a couple of minutes) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/SKZR3Qqr/set-screw.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Greg Parrish]

I’ll be interested to see the protractor. They have them for sale now with the aluminum winder/handle but they are not calibrated for the hammer models. They are for the k700. I bought them for my KF500 and they would t work. Had to return them. Mine apparently has the hammer internals.

[Mike Kees]

Very interesting stuff. So is the digital protractor handle supposed to be really accurate ?

[Jim Becker]

I"m glad to hear about the blade safety feature including that it's non-destructive to the blade. In that manner, false sensor triggers don't cost hundreds of " local monetary units" but the worker has more protection. Folks are less likely to have hands near the blade with a slider for many operations, but accidents still happen. This is a step in the right direction, IMHO.

Good call on getting the second wheel...I can appreciate why you wanted it as it would be maddening to me to have to move a single one around with any frequency at all.

[Derek Cohen]

Very interesting stuff. So is the digital protractor handle supposed to be really accurate ?

Mike, I assume so ... the digital gauge on my A3-31 jointer-thicknesser/planer is super accurate.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

...
Good call on getting the second wheel...I can appreciate why you wanted it as it would be maddening to me to have to move a single one around with any frequency at all.

Jim, it has been a constant source of wonder - and frustration - why Hammer cheaped out like this. I cannot imagine other similar brands doing this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

I will speculate that because the wheels don't recess into the machine like the tilt wheel does on my MM Slider, having it removable would be more comfortable for the user when standing next to the slider, rather than behind the saw as with a cabinet saw.

[John Kee]

Interesting development of SS adoption since its general excepted that the tech is waste of time on a larger slider. I can see a better adoption rate in the shorter stroke sliders with a small chassis that some use like a traditional cabinet saw. Another euro saw maker already tried that tech and it crashed and burned. The aluminum handles with the digital angle readout have been available as a separate part in the NA market for years.

[Greg Parrish]

Not calibrated for the hammer machines that I’ve seen. The rate of angle change doesn’t match the same as the felder saws. I had purchased two for my unit and had to return them which was a painful experience. Regardless one that matches the hammer saw and shaper unit would be really handy.


Interesting development of SS adoption since its general excepted that the tech is waste of time on a larger slider. I can see a better adoption rate in the shorter stroke sliders with a small chassis that some use like a traditional cabinet saw. Another euro saw maker already tried that tech and it crashed and burned. The aluminum handles with the digital angle readout have been available as a separate part in the NA market for years.

[Matthew Hills]

Let us know if the 2nd wheel gets in the way of normal operation (I've often heard about this as justification for only having a single wheel).

Marius Hornberger had another solution to the loosening hand crank:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua7QhopfFHM

Matt

[John TenEyck]

I thought SawStop had that safety technology locked up with their patents. I wonder how Felder thinks they will be successful where Bosch was not?

John

[Andrew More]

Any idea if the flesh sensing tech will be available outside of Australia? Obviously the big hold up is patents, which I've heard start to expire in the US around 2020. I'm expecting a re-introduction of the Bosch Reaxx with flesh sensing tech around that time, and hoping maybe something from the big cabinet makers as well. I can't help thinking the sale of SawStop to Festool was partially motivated by the expiration of the patents, and what that means for sales.

[John Kee]

Sawstop is now owned by the entity that owns Festool. Could be something with patents because those patents don't apply to Canada and many other countries. Bosch was only not successful in the USA.

[John Kee]

Not calibrated for the hammer machines that I’ve seen. The rate of angle change doesn’t match the same as the felder saws. I had purchased two for my unit and had to return them which was a painful experience. Regardless one that matches the hammer saw and shaper unit would be really handy.

Greg I stand corrected, I went though the frustration dealing with a Felder saleman that didn't know the product line. The aluminum handle only has always been available, I checked an old photo of my 2008 K500S where I thought I had used one, then I remember thats when I started using the digital Tiltbox. Even though I now have the dail readout on the K700SP I find the tiltbox far more accurate.

[Greg Parrish]

No worries. The KF500 has the inset plastic wheels like the 700 and you can pop the center cap and put the dial gauge in but it doesn’t track correctly. The tilt mechanism in the 700 works differently or at a different rate/speed apparently. However the elevation wheels can be swapped for aluminum and you can use the elevation dial gauges in them but I don’t have them. With changing blade sizes and shaper bit positions it didn’t seem that I could find an easy way to calibrate zero on the wheel without a lot of fiddling with each blade/tool change.



Greg I stand corrected, I went though the frustration dealing with a Felder saleman that didn't know the product line. The aluminum handle only has always been available, I checked an old photo of my 2008 K500S where I thought I had used one, then I remember thats when I started using the digital Tiltbox. Even though I now have the dail readout on the K700SP I find the tiltbox far more accurate.

[Jon Nuckles]

Any idea if the flesh sensing tech will be available outside of Australia? Obviously the big hold up is patents, which I've heard start to expire in the US around 2020. I'm expecting a re-introduction of the Bosch Reaxx with flesh sensing tech around that time, and hoping maybe something from the big cabinet makers as well. I can't help thinking the sale of SawStop to Festool was partially motivated by the expiration of the patents, and what that means for sales.

Obviously Festool was also aware of any expiration dates of patent protection and that would have affected the sale price. Perhaps Festool's market position and access to capital made it easier to increase the size of the operation and better capture the value that the patented technology still offered. To be clear, I don't know when the patents expire, and am just going by what was suggested above.

[Mo Ghotbi]

I believe there’s an Italian sliding saw that has flesh-sensing technology that drops the blade but doesn’t damage the blade.
Requires pneumatic pressure for the safety mechanism. Forget who the manufacturer is.

[Patrick Walsh]

Griggrio

Been out a couple years now..

[John Kee]

I remember they said they had one but have not heard any info that it was actually in production and people were actually buying them. Never heard any revelations about from the major woodworking shows.

[Steve Wurster]

K3 owners will likely also identify with my irritation each time one goes to adjust the blade height, as the handle has loosened and needs to be pushed deeper onto the spindle before it can be used. And then it needs to be swapped over to the angle side when the blade is to be tilted. Enough ... I wanted a second winder.

Each handle is attached now with a set screw (drilled and tapped in a couple of minutes) ...


I believe it was Marius Hornberger that simply glued a magnet into the back of the handle such that it contacts the end of the spindle when installed. That way it never comes loose due to vibration. I haven't tried that yet, so I'm still pushing the thing back up each time I adjust blade height. And I don't find myself making bevel cuts often enough to require the second handle.

[Kevin Jenness]

I would be banging into that tilt handle constantly. I am happy to have a folding handle on my saw.

[Derek Cohen]

Marius' magnet fix is a very good idea. I like it, and might have gone down that path if I had thought of it earlier. I may still .. if the second handle gets in the way. I have not found this to be the case so far - if it did, then it would when the K3 is set up for angled cuts. We will see ...

I managed one other modification this past weekend - a zero clearance insert (ZCI).

Again, owners of the K3 know the frustration when thin off cuts become stuck in the gap between the blade and the slider.

Below is the original insert along with a blank for the dado blades ...

https://i.postimg.cc/prpBJZ8R/5.jpg

One can convert the insert for the dado blade into a ZCI for the saw blade - just screw it in and raise the blade through it. The saw kerf created now needs to be extended to include the riving knife. I discovered that this creates a thin, flimsy and fragile outer section. After about a month, this snapped on the first ZCI I built.

I had the idea to rebuild this insert with a strip of aluminium. This needed to be let it at the ends to fit flush with the sides. The new section was drilled and tapped for screws (no other way to attach it securely). The reason for the deeper aluminium section is to ensure that it is stiffer.

https://i.postimg.cc/G2MQDN4X/3.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/QM30ZcLJ/2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/G23KHrmB/4.jpg

I have used this one several times so far, and it works well. I also completed a 45 degree kerf, and then realised that a ZCI needs to be one or the other, so it looks like I will make one more.

https://i.postimg.cc/q7xQJg4V/1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Wurster]

I would be banging into that tilt handle constantly. I am happy to have a folding handle on my saw.

I think I have only left the handle on that spindle once when making a cut, but thankfully I was standing far enough to the left that I didn't bang into it. However, I think on one of their videos they point out that they only give you one handle so that you don't walk into it! That is, you're expected to put the handle back onto the height spindle after adjusting the bevel.

[Steve Wurster]

One can convert the insert for the dado blade into a ZCI for the saw blade - just screw it in and raise the blade through it. The saw kerf created now needs to be extended to include the riving knife. I discovered that this creates a thin, flimsy and fragile outer section. After about a month, this snapped on the first ZCI I built.


That's what I did with that dado blade insert, but it hasn't snapped yet. I haven't yet tried to make my own ZCI for this.

[Mark e Kessler]

Sawstop is now owned by the entity that owns Festool. Could be something with patents because those patents don't apply to Canada and many other countries. Bosch was only not successful in the USA.

Patents have to filed in each country that you want protection in, then they have to be maintained which can be very costly.

[Mark e Kessler]

I thought SawStop had that safety technology locked up with their patents. I wonder how Felder thinks they will be successful where Bosch was not?

John

I believe Felders solution will be with electromagnetics which will easily get around SawStops and Bosch's Patents and the disposables that they require.

[Andrew More]

I believe Felders solution will be with electromagnetics which will easily get around SawStops and Bosch's Patents and the disposables that they require.

I believe that Bosch also believed they could get around the SawStop patents, and their approach appears to be different enough from SawStop's to make a good case, from what little I know. Bosch's system used CO2 canisters to propel the blade below the table, while SawStop uses an aluminium break that jams into the blade bringing it to a stop. However the judge thought different, perhaps because of the necessarily similarity in making the determination of initial contact.

[Erik Loza]

Guys, regarding Felder's "Preventive Contact System", they are aware of the possibility of legal challenge in the US market and it's only going to be available on the big Kappa sliding panel saws. At least for the foreseeable future. Whatever the actual mechanism is, that is being a closely guarded secret. They're showing a machine with it at LIGNA next month and we apparently will have one in the booth at IWF next year. Someone on the creek needs to order from me so we can all find out. Here's the official link: https://www.felder-group.com/fg-en/pcs.html

Erik

[Peter Christensen]

I think the biggest problem for makers is the detection system and not how the blade is stopped. The SawStop detects the change in the electrical conductivity between the wood and your finger. Basically like the ohmmeter selection of a multimeter going beep when you grab the leads. Unless a maker comes up with something else like body heat or optical detection they are all going to have a problem if they try to use a conductive detection system.

[Andrew More]

I think the biggest problem for makers is the detection system and not how the blade is stopped. The SawStop detects the change in the electrical conductivity between the wood and your finger. Basically like the ohmmeter selection of a multimeter going beep when you grab the leads. Unless a maker comes up with something else like body heat or optical detection they are all going to have a problem if they try to use a conductive detection system.
I think you're probably right, which is unfortunate, because I'm sure there is a ton of prior art on that approach, maybe not necessarily applied to this application.

[John Kee]

I found the ZCI to be a waste of time, there will always be a thin cutoff that gets jammed and the tighter the gap the more issues it creates with defecting the blade and creating a bad wobble. I've found they also impeded dust collections on an already poor system.

[Jim Becker]

The alternative to a ZCI on a slider is a scoring blade and to use a scrape piece for a backer on crosscuts to minimize/eliminate any tear-out from the blade exiting the material.

[Derek Cohen]

Jim, I wonder if my experience with my shorter slider has led me to view the ZCI here differently from you (and others), who have long sliders?

On a traditional tablesaw, the ZCI will close up the edges around the blade, and this will reduce tearout on saw cuts. However, there is a different purpose for the ZCI on a slider: when the rip fence is used, thin offcuts will drop into the gap between the slider and the table. The ZCI closes the gap and prevents this occurring. It is unnecessary for this purpose when ripping on the slider. It is only for use when ripping long boards against the rip fence, which is necessary on the shorter sliders, such as mine.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

Yes, I am in agreement that the gap on the fence side can cause some challenges, so closing up that side is a good thing for ripping narrow with the fence for sure! I do that more often than I would prefer because while it can be done with a Fritz and Franz jig, that takes math since it's the off cut that's the workpiece being created for narrow rips in many cases. LOL (not always, of course) I'm planning on milling a dado insert for my S315WS slider when I get around to it and maybe I'll get an extra piece of aluminum to make a replacement "normal" insert that has tight clearance on the fence side. Thanks for making me think about this...and probably spend money. heh...heh...