Sharpening a saw

[Jason Kamery]

So I have two questions about sharpening a hand saw. I have done it on old beat up saws with decent results, but I have to sharpen my newer saws soon and I don't want to "mess it up" too badly.
I was reading a few articles/watching a few videos and sometimes you joint a saw, sometimes you don't. Also sometimes when using the file, you use equal amount of strokes, other times you use as many to make a sharp point at the saw tooth.
I was wondering what you all do. Do you joint your saw teeth each time? Do you do equal amount of strokes with your file through the teeth, or go until it's sharp (could be different amounts on each tooth).

Thanks all!
Jason

[Pete Taran]

Jason,

Jointing is an essential step and should be done every time. The reason is, especially for beginning filers, is that you get a small flat on the top of the tooth which gives you something to shoot for with respect to how much to file. If you ignore this step, you have nothing to guide how much to file and your saw can quickly get out of whack as far as a straight cutting edge. If the teeth are in good shape, a single, even swipe is enough. If not, then do another until all the teeth has a small flat which reflects light. Don't overdo it as the more you remove, the more you will have to file each tooth to get rid of the flat and get a sharp point.

Once you've done this, how much to file is immediately seen by the reduction in the flat. For each gullet, you should shoot to remove 1/2 the flat on each side so when you are done you have a sharp point again. Most people are surprised when they learn just how little metal is removed from each tooth to get it sharp again.

Hope this helps.

Pete

[Warren Mickley]

Jason, you certainly will not need to joint the saw your first time. The reason is that we only joint to make up for sloppiness in the previous sharpening. If the present sharpening was carefully done, as it probably was for a good quality new saw, jointing is not helpful. Concentrate on taking an even amount off each tooth, and you may not have to joint the next time either.

I have been sharpening saws since 1974, and had a small income from sharpening saws for others forty years ago. However, most of my sharpening has been sharpening the same handful of saws over and over again for my work. I am not a collector and I have never owned a power saw. What I find is that I can do numerous sharpenings without jointing. I would guess that it is on the order of half a dozen times between jointing. I can see that a beginner might need to joint more often than someone with a lot of experience and a steady hand. Also someone with experience using a saw can get a feel for when a saw needs jointing by the way it cuts.

Pete Taran had asked previously what part of Pennsylvania I lived in: Lancaster County.

[lowell holmes]

Practice on an old saw. Lightly joint prior to the first sharpening. If you do not have a saw set, place a flat blade screwdriver
between two saw teeth and twist slightly, progressing down the length of the saw, two teeth at a time. After setting the teeth
you can dress the sides of the teeth with a small flat file.

[Pete Taran]

Jason,

Agree with most of what Warren said, especially as it relates to an experienced filer. The skill learned about how to apply even pressure to sharpen is one that is learned with experience. Until you learn that experience, having a visual queue to inform your hands how to apply that pressure and what it feels like is useful. You likely can get away with not jointing your saw the first time, but there is no downside to doing it for the reasons stated. Your saw will certainly not be any worse off by jointing, and likely will be better.

Warren, grew up in Lycoming County, and went to college in Carlisle. Picked many tools in Adamstown and Morgantown over the years.

Pete

[Barney Markunas]

Not to derail the thread but Pete, when were you at Dickinson (not many college choices in Carlisle)? I grew up just north of Harrisburg and graduated from Dickinson in '78. Fond memories of Bixler's Hardware Store, and Massey's frozen custard. The older gents at Bixlers used to be find almost anything up in the attic... a friend started spelunking and found carbide lamps at a garage sale. Bixlers had replacement reflectors and ignitors in the attic!

[Pete Taran]

Barney, Dickinson it was, class of '88!

[lowell holmes]

I am at Dickinson, Dickinson , Texas that is.
We don't have a college, but there are some universities near by.:)

[Stewie Simpson]

Jason; imo, the worst advise your going to receive is not to joint the tooth line before you commence sharpening.

Stewie;

[Tom M King]

By all means joint to start with for the visual reference of the little flat surface. Don't do any more than you need to though.

I sharpen without jointing way more than I do with jointing. All the old guys I knew always did it that way too. Now I'm older than the guys I knew as these "old guys".

[Jason Kamery]

Thanks for the help all, appreciate it. So just to double check. Joint the teeth, you see that shiny spot. Then sharpen the teeth until sharp, not necessarily sharpen every tooth exactly the same amount of strokes?
That to me was the most confusing thing. Some people say you have to do two strokes on every tooth (or three). While others say you sharpen the tooth how ever many strokes it needs and then move on. So one tooth could be 1 stroke, another 3, etc.
Really appreciate the help you all have given!

[Tom M King]

You'll figure it out once you get into it. I take one stroke per tooth, but the pressure varies depending on how much each tooth needs. One stroke mainly because I sharpen often. Each stroke is a full stroke because I buy full length files, and am cheap.

I may be one of the few left that uses one hand. Just like sharpening a chainsaw chain, I start by dropping the little smooth end in the gullet. It gives you a split second to see that you are in the right gullet, and how much that one needs. Files last longer with smooth strokes. You can take the same amount of metal off with a short, hard stroke, or a long, light smooth one. Files like long, and smooth better.

When I'm teaching someone new to file anything, I tape a white piece of paper horizontally behind the tool so they can see how much metal filings come off with a smooth stroke of different pressures.

I like a bright light shining at the face of the sharpened tooth to shine back towards my eyes. That makes it easy to see which one is next while you're finishing the one you're on. It all goes really fast once you get the hang of it.

[Pete Taran]

James,

Definitely the latter. To do otherwise would be like saying every tenon cheek needs 3 swipes with a plane to fit regardless of how thick it is. You file enough to get the result you need, the flats are instrumental in knowing when you have achieved the result.

+1 Stewart!

Pete


Thanks for the help all, appreciate it. So just to double check. Joint the teeth, you see that shiny spot. Then sharpen the teeth until sharp, not necessarily sharpen every tooth exactly the same amount of strokes?
That to me was the most confusing thing. Some people say you have to do two strokes on every tooth (or three). While others say you sharpen the tooth how ever many strokes it needs and then move on. So one tooth could be 1 stroke, another 3, etc.
Really appreciate the help you all have given!

[Warren Mickley]

Thanks for the help all, appreciate it. So just to double check. Joint the teeth, you see that shiny spot. Then sharpen the teeth until sharp, not necessarily sharpen every tooth exactly the same amount of strokes?
That to me was the most confusing thing. Some people say you have to do two strokes on every tooth (or three). While others say you sharpen the tooth how ever many strokes it needs and then move on. So one tooth could be 1 stroke, another 3, etc.
Really appreciate the help you all have given!


No, No and No.

In routine sharpening we do not joint. We try to take an even amount off each tooth, enough on each tooth to eliminate the dullness on the worst section. We achieve this evenness by taking long smooth strokes and by using the same number of strokes on each tooth.

After a number of sharpening sessions like this the saw will get a little out of whack, depending on how careful you have been. A common problem is that the teeth set to the left will be different from the teeth set to the right. Then we joint the teeth to get back to uniformity.

The next operation is shaping, where we work on teeth that the jointing has shown to be to long, and file just those teeth.

Then we sharpen, trying for uniformity by counting strokes as before.

Your saw, Jason, has not been repeatedly sharpened by hand and certainly is not out of whack. It does not need jointing. It does need uniform treatment to each tooth, whether they are dull or not.

[Tom M King]

Warren must have been including me when he said "we". His method is exactly the same as I have seen old carpenters use many times.

There is no right, and wrong answer, but things do develop over time of experience.

As an example of work done with a handsaw, this siding picture was already stored here. I have always cut wood siding with a handsaw because it can't be cut that accurately with power tools. It might look like it's really tight, but you can take a fingertip, and move each board in, and out as it is resting on the nails rather than being pounded in tightly against the studs. If any one board is cut a little long, and forced in, it would open up a gap on the end of the one under it. This picture was taken about 25 years after I built that house in 1991. I don't like to use caulking on the exterior of a house, and especially on one that is not going to be painted.

The saw that had been sharpened many times before this siding was installed, was sharpened pretty much as Warren just described. I like to keep one sharp, so it gets sharpened frequently.

edited to add: That siding is off the saw. You can't get it to fit that well if you have to play with it after you cut it.

Sometimes when I joint small backsaws, I will use a 4" Smooth file. I'm too lazy to do a lot of extra work.

[Pete Taran]

Warren,

I appreciate your passion, but it is basely solely on your opinion. I've been filing saws since 1991, and have been teaching people to file since 1996 through my website. I also have an opinion. That does not make yours wrong and mine right. When situations like these arise, it's always useful to see what the opinions of others were, in the times in which handsaws were important and used daily to see what they might say.

To wit:

In 1864 HW Holly wrote a book called, The Art of Saw Filing, a copy which I hold as part of my collection. In it, he writes:

408564

In 1909 Fred T Hodgson wrote in his excellent book, "Hand Saws: Their Use, Care and Abuse":

408565

Finally, in 1882 Robert Grimshaw wrote a book called: Saw Filing". In it he writes:

408566

You will note in all cases the authors speak to the relative importance of jointing before filing. I see no call outs about it being optional, or should only be done every 2, 3 or 4th time filing. As stated before, jointing a saw has absolutely no downside if done properly and judiciously, and has great upside.

Let's then turn to this notion of counting strokes and how to file. As before, and in the same order, Holly writes:

408567

Note that part about stopping as soon as the saw comes to a point. No mention of stroke counting.

Hodgson writes:

408568

Note the part about observing when the saw tooth comes to a point and filing further will destroy a half hours work. No mention of stroke counting.

Finally, Grimshaw writes:

408569

Note the part about stopping filing even if the tooth is not properly shaped. Again, no mention of stroke counting.

Anyone can read these period texts and come to their own conclusion. Again, these are other men's opinions, now dead, but they seem to be in close alignment. Always joint your saw and stop filing when the tooth comes to a point. You are free to believe and do as you choose, but do so armed with knowledge, not a blind statement.

Happy Filing!

Pete

[Tom M King]

I absolutely agree about stopping filing where you need to. That's why you look at every tooth before, and as you are filing. To do otherwise would be foolish. Even though I take single strokes, most of the time, not only will they vary in pressure, but often in length too.

I also agree that there is not an absolute way that is right, or wrong as far as whether to joint, or not to joint. Of all the old guys I knew that used a hand saw every day, I never saw one that jointed every time, or even any more often than I do, or probably Warren does.

Also, I do believe it's a good idea to follow the texts exactly when one is starting out, but once one not only understands, but has a feel for the job, they are free to do as they see fit. The goal is to have a sharp saw, that is good for the job, but when income depends on producing work, there is often an efficient way that might not exactly follow how someone wrote down how to do it.

That siding in the picture would not have fitted any better if the saw that did the cutting had been jointed every time, nor would it have done the job any faster.

I see blind statements supporting both jointing every time, and not to joint every time. Neither blind statement is absolutely correct every time, and the other always completely wrong.

[Pete Taran]

Tom,

I don't disagree with anything you wrote. But considering the OP is a first time filer, it's hard to argue the merits of jointing until that skill is learned. Presumably, in the texts above, they were also aimed at first time filers, and the recommendation is remarkably consistent.

Regards,

Pete

[Warren Mickley]

Pete, I think it is understandable that we should have differing ideas on these matters. As a hand tool woodworker, I actually use hand saws in my work. Most of my sharpening has been on the same half dozen saws I have been using for over four decades. So I have the advantage of feedback from saws that I have sharpened repeatedly.

I think you may have a very different background. I suspect a lot of the saws you have filed were not ones that you have previously filed many times and used yourself. I don't think the authors you quote are hand tool craftsmen either. Two of them seem to be architects and the other an engineer. And the authors seem to assume that the reader is learning to sharpen on a saw that is not in good shape, that they need to do remedial work. Which is not the case for Jason.

[James Pallas]

I am very sure that someone with experience could do a credible job of sharpening a saw without jointing first, especially if the saw is not very dull. The tricky part is not having an established base line for tooth height that can be referenced. If the middle section of the saw is worn, which is usually the case, than counting strokes would still leave the outer teeth longer than the worn teeth in the middle. Jointing would give you wider flats on the outside teeth and narrower flats on the worn inside teeth. File to the point not to the count. The outside teeth will take more filing.
Jim

[Kevin Hampshire]

Okay, let me preface this by saying that I have not put files to a single tooth yet and I have no skin towards either method, but I do have six or seven old saws that will soon fall victim to my poor eyesight, shakey hands, worn out triangular files and Rube Goldberg methods.





I am curious how jointing by a beginner like myself (Warren’s early post) will make the sharpening worse?



Also, we are talking about hand tool woodworking. Probably all of us establish a reference face while planing. We then gauge off that reference face. Isn’t jointing teeth very similar to jointing the reference face of a board?

[Pete Taran]

Kevin,

Yes exactly, and it will not make it worse, only improve your chances of getting it right for the reasons you stated.

Regards,

Pete

[Kevin Hampshire]

Pete, I kind of assumed that was your thought.

For the record, (and I am not trying to get anyone’s knickers knotted up) before reading this thread, I intended to use BOTH methods on different saws.


I have a crosscut that’s cutting okay and really isn’t that dull. I wasn’t going to joint that one. Just freshen the face of the teeth to see if the cut was any better or just worse.

Another saw is clearly dull in the middle (as in the teeth are so round and smooth that they could only “tickle” the wood) and to my eye, looked like an obvious candidate for jointing.


Don’t expect me to update anyone with my progress.

[Tom M King]

I think you'll do fine. The hardest part seems to be getting started the first time.

[Warren Mickley]

James Pallas suggested that if one filed an equal number of strokes on each tooth, then the teeth at each end would grow longer. In 45 years I have not noticed this to be the case. I don't think James actually noticed this either.

Kevin Hampshire asked why jointing a saw that retained its factory filing might make it worse. Jointing causes one to do more filing, and the more one files the worse it gets. It might be a stretch, but some are claiming that filing is so irregular that they need to joint again before every filing. Besides the length of each tooth, the angles and gullets can get distorted the more one files.

[James Pallas]

James Pallas suggested that if one filed an equal number of strokes on each tooth, then the teeth at each end would grow longer. In 45 years I have not noticed this to be the case. I don't think James actually noticed this either.

Kevin Hampshire asked why jointing a saw that retained its factory filing might make it worse. Jointing causes one to do more filing, and the more one files the worse it gets. It might be a stretch, but some are claiming that filing is so irregular that they need to joint again before every filing. Besides the length of each tooth, the angles and gullets can get distorted the more one files.

Here is where it comes from.. When I first started in the wood business a youngster in the 60s. We hand sharpened rough saws in the field clamped to a saw horse with a 2x on one side. No jointing, just a tri-corner file. Straight across for rip guessed angle of 20 degrees or so for cross cuts or whatever the file matched. Look down the blade for set and tap it with a claw of your hammer. They all got concave after a while. They did cut fast but not pretty. Latter when I learned about jointing it was a maracle come true. I had never retoothed a saw until a few years ago. Learned a good bit from Ron Bontz right here on the creek at that time. Joint however lightly file to the point. I respect the way you do it Warren and I did say it was possible for the experienced. I would say that most filers joint and some count strokes. To me it would be like counting strokes to cut dovetails instead of cutting to the baseline. Different strokes as is said.
Jim

We sharpened skilsaw blades the same, steel ones that us. Clamp the saw upside down on a horse, file the outside right on the saw, unplugged of course. We usually had a stack about a foot high from the sharp shed but sometimes ran short.

[Stewie Simpson]

James Pallas suggested that if one filed an equal number of strokes on each tooth, then the teeth at each end would grow longer. In 45 years I have not noticed this to be the case. I don't think James actually noticed this either.

Kevin Hampshire asked why jointing a saw that retained its factory filing might make it worse. Jointing causes one to do more filing, and the more one files the worse it gets. It might be a stretch, but some are claiming that filing is so irregular that they need to joint again before every filing. Besides the length of each tooth, the angles and gullets can get distorted the more one files.

Warren; the basis upon your argument serves you no favor.

regards Stewie.

[Warren Mickley]

Thanks James. I think there is a big difference between jointing only when it is helpful and never jointing at all.

[Derek Cohen]

I touched up a couple of dovetail saws last weekend. I emphasise "touched up". This is different from re-filing the teeth, changing their size or the angle of their rake. It was evident that the saws could cut more aggressively, that is, the teeth were dulling. I am about to begin a new build, and all the tools I use are tuned up beforehand.

Looking at the tips of the teeth it was possible to see a little light reflecting. I was using magnifiers to see this. This pointed to a very fine amount of wear.

I did not joint the teeth - they did not appear to need it. The teeth were coplanar still. So all I did was maintain the same rake angle and take one stroke across the face of each tooth. That was enough to remove all the reflected light. It may need to be jointed next sharpening. For now it is cutting very sweetly.

I suspect that Warren and Pete are referring to two different processes. Warren appears to be referring to the process for maintaining a reasonably sharp (but dulling) set of teeth, while Pete is referring to the process to follow when filing a new plate, or resharpening a noticeably dull set of teeth. They are both relevant process that I use.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

James Pallas suggested that if one filed an equal number of strokes on each tooth, then the teeth at each end would grow longer. In 45 years I have not noticed this to be the case. I don't think James actually noticed this either.

Kevin Hampshire asked why jointing a saw that retained its factory filing might make it worse. Jointing causes one to do more filing, and the more one files the worse it gets. It might be a stretch, but some are claiming that filing is so irregular that they need to joint again before every filing. Besides the length of each tooth, the angles and gullets can get distorted the more one files.

I agree with this.

If filing retains the same rake and distance between teeth, then the tooth size will not alter.

Further, the more (deeper) jointing is done, the more the gullet depth will need to be restored.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Doug Dawson]

So I have two questions about sharpening a hand saw. I have done it on old beat up saws with decent results, but I have to sharpen my newer saws soon and I don't want to "mess it up" too badly.
I was reading a few articles/watching a few videos and sometimes you joint a saw, sometimes you don't. Also sometimes when using the file, you use equal amount of strokes, other times you use as many to make a sharp point at the saw tooth.
I was wondering what you all do. Do you joint your saw teeth each time? Do you do equal amount of strokes with your file through the teeth, or go until it's sharp (could be different amounts on each tooth).


Oooooh, another sharpening flame war, lock up your women and children in the castle, the white walkers are here. NO! They are merely the driving instructor, knocking at your door spoofing you with the rhythm of Beethoven's Fifth, ta ta ta DAH...

"What we have here, is a failure of mechanical sensitivity." Have you ever tried to teach your kid how to drive a stick?

It's kind of like that.

[James Pallas]

Very fun. I realize that wear that you have to magnify to see is very little for sure. It wouldn't make a dimes worth of difference in the saws performance. What I learned is that that worn away metal will actually re-appear if you file without jointing. If you touch up saws when you have to use magnification to see it a long time would pass before it ever became a noticeable problem. Now let's move on to breasted saws. That should be interesting also.
Jim

[Stewie Simpson]

I am very sure that someone with experience could do a credible job of sharpening a saw without jointing first, especially if the saw is not very dull. The tricky part is not having an established base line for tooth height that can be referenced. If the middle section of the saw is worn, which is usually the case, than counting strokes would still leave the outer teeth longer than the worn teeth in the middle. Jointing would give you wider flats on the outside teeth and narrower flats on the worn inside teeth. File to the point not to the count. The outside teeth will take more filing.
Jim

Jim; by changing the word longer to higher, you'll add greater clarity within your post. (See example below)

I am very sure that someone with experience could do a credible job of sharpening a saw without jointing first, especially if the saw is not very dull. The tricky part is not having an established base line for tooth height that can be referenced. If the middle section of the saw is worn, which is usually the case, than counting strokes would still leave the outer teeth higher than the worn teeth in the middle. Jointing would give you wider flats on the outside teeth and narrower flats on the worn inside teeth. File to the point not to the count. The outside teeth will take more filing.

Jim

[lowell holmes]

Just get an old junker saw and fix it. It will all workout.

[James Pallas]

Jim; by changing the word longer to higher, you'll add greater clarity within your post. (See example below)

I am very sure that someone with experience could do a credible job of sharpening a saw without jointing first, especially if the saw is not very dull. The tricky part is not having an established base line for tooth height that can be referenced. If the middle section of the saw is worn, which is usually the case, than counting strokes would still leave the outer teeth higher than the worn teeth in the middle. Jointing would give you wider flats on the outside teeth and narrower flats on the worn inside teeth. File to the point not to the count. The outside teeth will take more filing.

Jim
Thanks Stewie. I've seen your saws and I'm sure your better with the nomenclature than I could be. I know I've said it before, I like the look of your saws.
Jim

[lowell holmes]

I suggest taking one saw to a saw sharpening company and after that you will have a sample to copy.

Also, watch this video. I learned at a class at Homestead Heritage in Waco Texas when Paul was there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA5DixEaaUo

[Jim Koepke]

I suggest taking one saw to a saw sharpening company and after that you will have a sample to copy.

Also, watch this video. I learned at a class at Homestead Heritage in Waco Texas when Paul was there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA5DixEaaUo

To the best of my knowledge the closest saw sharpener is over 100 miles from me.

In some parts of the country a saw sharpening service doesn't have enough work to keep busy. My understanding is a lot of different businesses offer 'saw sharpening service' and the company down in Eugene or Salem, OR (not sure which) picks up, sharpens and then returns the saws on a weekly basis.

The local mower repair and saw sharpening service in my town closed years ago. Of course there are chainsaw repair and sharpening shops.

jtk

[Mike Allen1010]

Kevin,

Yes exactly, and it will not make it worse, only improve your chances of getting it right for the reasons you stated.

Regards,

Pete

+1 I usually don't comment on contentious threads as goodness knows everyone is entitled to their opinion. However in this case, the OP has a legitimate question and contrary to current political discourse, in the empirical world "facts are facts" and its logical/reasonable to respect and learn from credible expertise. Case in point; Pete is a credible expert. His opinion is also supported by those who literally "wrote the book" on the subject at a time when this knowledge was critically important for large segment of the working population. To suggest this viewpoint should be dismissed because "those guys don't really have hand tool woodworking experience" is ludicrous.

To the OP, I agree it makes sense to routinely joint your tooth line when sharpening – it can't hurt you and can only help. For those who disagree – God bless you – you do you – no harm/no foul.


Best, Mike

[lowell holmes]

Maybe you need to make a vise. I did.
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/jun10/jig-journal-shop-made-saw-vise/

I made mine to fit in a wooden bench vise.